Gummy,
I thought you got rid of that sissy puney assed 223 in favor of a 260?

KB

Kabluey was wondering if you possibly hunt in a camouflage tutu or a standard pink one? Certainly been doing a lot of dancing since Gato made offer to put your money where your mouth is.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
So, it's ok to troll the forum and accuse others of lying?

You say I'm trolling. Maybe you are right. As with any trolling effort, one should use the right bait, and fish in the right spot. If trolling for blowhards, what better bait is there than discussion of using 223 varmint bullets on deer? What better place to find a population of blowhards than within the 223 forum? It's a natural place for a blowhard hunter/troller to migrate. The pickings/catch is always fruitful, and aplenty, and the chance of catching a real trophy is fun too. The secret to that is you gotta get the bait past the perch first. Havent been able to do that yet - too many perch herein.


Sometimes they even give themselves up, right up front, (like floaters) by claiming things like perfect mushroom under the hide, or the "magic envelope". Those I don't count as real trophies - too easy. Where is the challange there? They hook themselves by believing their own BS. That's the sad part, but the amusing part is that they expect others to believe it too.

Imagine my dissappointment, thinking I was onto a Texas big mouth bass and an Idaho steelhead, then discovering the catch is more like a slippery eel and just another snapping turtle bottom feeder.

My bait is still wiggeling.

KB

How do you troll for a kabluey? Simple. Unzip fly and walk backwards.

I hate to give away the obvious - how do you troll for a Kabluewy? Funny question.

Make outrageous posts on the virtues of the 223 for use on deer or act like a blowhard. He's too easy. It's like holding up a banner, "let's have some fun deflating the hot air out of a blowhard."

How do you amuse a Texan? Tell a raunchy queer joke. He can relate to that every time.

KB

Must be. Teancum put you on a hook with his 1st post.

Good job TC. Guilty as accused. KB

OOps. I either misread your post, or you changed it. I was in a hurry, because as I was making my response, I got an invitation to go to the range and shoot a friend's new Ruger 480. Now that I'm back, I noticed that my response isn't to your post as I thought it was written.

However, you are still right, teancum did initiate this thread as a lark and a troll. The whole thing is a spoof, IMO, and it accomplished its mission by trolling out advocates of the 223 and varmint bullets, as well as the opponents.

You will notice that I resisted joining in for a while, but it was finally just too much temptation.

I was just using it as an opportunity to mess with those flushed out of their hidey place, making straight-faced BS posts, thinking they were participating in a real-world experience testimonial.

I kinda find teancum's sense of amusment interesting, eh?

KB

I don't read any of Kaboom's postings for about a year now and life is much better without the need to explain over and over again.

Anyway the drift seems to be from the other lads that post here that Kaboom (that ole flock shooter and ebay consultant) is advocating for only the use of products according to the intent of the manufacturer.

If I am correct wasn't H4831 originally a powder used on battleships for the use in the deck guns? I remember seeing a documentary about the WWII, the big one, deck guns using multiple bags of that powder for each shot. I would guess that each of those bags would probably go around 10-15 pounds each. Fast forward to today and isn't the H4831 that we use today the same formula that was used in those huge deck guns? In fact many of you seasoned reloaders may have some of the original bags of that surplus powder left that was available to the public after the war or perhaps you remember using that surplus powder in your loads.

Since the intent of the manufacturer of that H4831 was originally to use that powder only in the huge deck guns, are we not amiss because someone found out an alternative application of the wonderful powder (in smaller quantities, Kaboom) in that it works wonders in many centerfire cartridges? or as an alternative solution....Perhaps we should only enter the hunting fields with deck guns.

According to what I can capture from Kaboom's comments posted by others, is that we are all stunt shooters driven by egos and last and least blowhards because we use H4831 for a purpose that differs from the Manufacturer's design.

I don't think Jack O'Connor was aware of this insight.

Advocating the use of a varmint bullet for deer at 281yds, to take advantage of the "magic envelope", is like saying you discovered a "magic envelope" for the use of H4831 with reduced loads. Neither bit of information is useful in the real world of hunting experience or knowledge, except to intuitively know it's something to avoid. Even the thought of taking on such experiments cause me to question that maybe someone has too much time on their hands.

And besides, either experiment (outside a lab) is an exercise in foolishness or stuntsmanship in the first place.

Granted, I'm speaking from my vast non-experience in either endevor.

KB

quote:

If I am correct wasn't H4831 originally a powder used on battleships for the use in the deck guns?

Neither, it was for the .50 Cal.

May have been tongue in cheek, but it is spot on.

Did you ever get your 9.3x64 cranking?

My Math may be wrong, a .223 firing a 55 grain bullet puts out 1350 ft lbs at muzzle. That would be 9 ft lbs per pound of body weight for a 150 lb deer. To equal that ratio, a 10,000 lb elephant would require 90,000 ft lbs at muzzle. Apx the power of 28 30-06's. The elephant would be 66.66 times bigger (10,000 divided by 150). So the bullet diameter .224 times 66.66 to keep ratio the same would require using a 14.93 inch bullet that weighs half a pound on an elephant. Do they make such a rifle and can you imagine shooting it? If you can shoot an elephant with any gun at all, where is the question about .223 and deer?

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

If I am correct wasn't H4831 originally a powder used on battleships for the use in the deck guns?

Neither, it was for the .50 Cal.

My sources say it was used in 20mm cannon rounds. Possibly used in the .50 as well. I wasn't reloading them.

A pharmaceutical labratory was working on a drug for angina. The males that volunteered for treatment (guinea pigs if you will) showed no improvement in their medical condition. But at coffee breaks they learned they were mostly experiencing a commmon side effect and were not willing to give up the medication. That is how Viagra was discovered.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
That is how Viagra was discovered.

So, your point is?

Do you get a woodie when deer hunting with varmint bullets, like you used to do, now thanks to viagra? That's something which could become quitely popular among the advocates of the 223 for deer hunting, if it isn't already. I'm sure they will appreciate your sharing of that secret.

I often wondered why those guys toting a 223 slung over their shoulder, or held in one hand, had the other hand in their pocket. Now we know, thanks to carpetman.

KB

Maybe the maximum range to shoot mule deer should be the maximum for elephant divided by 66.66? It whould make brain shots easier.

900SS- Max to shoot deer would be max for elephant dived by 66.66---That would be true if you were using that rifle I described--don't have a clue what range it would reach out to.

Yep,
And KB can't seem to grasp that concept.
That sometimes things perform outside of their original design.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
Yep,
And KB can't seem to grasp that concept.
That sometimes things perform outside of their original design.

I understand, Woodie Woodrow. I've seen people driving 100mph on passenger car tires. I've seen guys pulling 4 horse trailers through the mountains with a 1/2 ton PU. I could name many examples.

KB

The point is the bullet manufacturers may have been trying to make a varmint bullet but it was learned that deer were screwed when shot with them.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
but it was learned that deer were screwed when shot with them.

Interesting choice of words - Woodie.

KB

And back to the topic at hand...

Just got an e-mail from a good bowhunter friend of mine, his 6 year old daughter shot a buck yesterday. 11 point that dressed out at 195 lbs, aged at 5.5 years. She killed it with one shot out of a cut down Encore in .223, dropped it in its tracks with a shot through the shoulder. No idea what the load was, but I bet it wasn't anything fancy. It was close though, she shot it out of one of his ground blinds he had set up for bowhunting.

Thought it might actually be relevant to the discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
And back to the topic at hand...

6 year old daughter shot a buck yesterday. with one shot out of a cut down Encore in .223, dropped it in its tracks with a shot through the shoulder. No idea what the load was, but I bet it wasn't anything fancy. It was close though

Thought it might actually be relevant to the discussion.

Interesting too. I would like to know if it was a varmint bullet or one of those designed more for deer. Let us know if you can find out.

They probably don't keep statistics on such things, but while we are betting, I'll bet the record for the youngest shooter to kill a big buck happened somewhere in Texas. Those high fences, and corn or pellets, and petting the deer really helps, eh?

KB

JTPinTx--My great nephew shot his first deer through the shoulders with my .222--dropped dead right there--no vitals hit. This was with a 55grain Winchester bulk packed VARMINT bullet. To be used on varmints only. It has been proven many times that they have a hypnotic effect on deer. They are lulled into thinking they are a gopher. Once in that trance it will kill them. The only ones that it wont work on are the ones that have read all the highly intellectual writings of Kabluey.

Woodie, tell us about the "accidental good judgment" discovery in Texas, of an alternate use of a product. I heard that in Texas they discovered that baby diapers don't scare deer away, perhaps because they don't recognize the scent as a threat, and it is becoming so popular that Wall Mart can't keep enough during deer season. Story is that they are being used to mask the hunter shooter scent in Texas, placed in the circle of corn around the feeders, and works especially well in high fence areas.

Is this an example of what you are trying to say? Perhaps I understand now.

KB

the gift that keeps on giving......

I sent him a message to find out what bullet it was, we will see.

This was not a high fence buck. Low fence, open country. Staging area, I believe. About 5 miles from where I hunt. They have some high fence with exotics, but this isn't it. In fact, they lease this place, don't own it at all.

If the six year old bothers you, I know guy whos daughter shot her first couple at 4. She has been on national TV and has more good bucks on the wall than most folks. She shoots a .223 too, it is pink, and a very nice custom built rifle. She is the sweetest child you ever met, and at 8 years old knows more deer biology than 90% of the out of state yahoos that come hunt here. Her family sleeps, eats, and breathes it.

JTPinTX--That girl with a pink .223 and a bunch of bucks on the wall has got a serious problem developing. Come rutting season when those bucks come back to life--we all know a .223 wont kill them gonna be stags going at it in the living room.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

If I am correct wasn't H4831 originally a powder used on battleships for the use in the deck guns?

Neither, it was for the .50 Cal.

My sources say it was used in 20mm cannon rounds. Possibly used in the .50 as well. I wasn't reloading them.

I also did some research on the guns that used this powder and came up with the same as you, the Oerliken 20mm cannon from Bob Hagels, Propellant Profiles, 1982, p. 113. ISBN 0935632-10-7

Load was factory Remington 55 grain PSP Core Lokt at 3240 fps. Looked it up, there isn't a picture on the box at all, guess that made the difference.

the back 40- Thanks for the bullets, I got them in today. Really appreciate the 60 grain solid base, those things are kinda hard to find. Im doing some plinking/practicing this afternnon to free up some cases to put them in. I look forward to trying them out to see what they do. General season opens this weekend, time to start filling tags. Got a blue norther rolling though Wed., gotta get busy.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

If I am correct wasn't H4831 originally a powder used on battleships for the use in the deck guns?

Neither, it was for the .50 Cal.

My sources say it was used in 20mm cannon rounds. Possibly used in the .50 as well. I wasn't reloading them.

I also did some research on the guns that used this powder and came up with the same as you, the Oerliken 20mm cannon from Bob Hagels, Propellant Profiles, 1982, p. 113. ISBN 0935632-10-7

FWIW, Hogkiller has one grain of battleship gunpowder in his collection. It's about the size of a 35MM film canister. It's dense and heavy like a cylinder of bakelite. Which, again for what it's worth, is actually a compound called "polyoxybenzylmethylenglycolanhydride". I think that's the longest single name I ever saw. No wonder they call it "bakelite".

quote:

polyoxybenzylmethylenglycolanhydride".

You can say that again!

quote:

the back 40- Thanks for the bullets

You bet, have fun.

JTP in TX--That is the Remington version of the Winchester bullet I use. Strictly a varmint bullet I am told by an expert. Your friend should be punished for letting his girl attempt such a feat. A stunt at best.

IDK, I have sectioned one of the Rem 55's and they are pretty thin. Compared to the sectioned 64 powerpoint, they are alot thinner. I have shot them into wet newspaper before too just to see if they were any better than a run of the mill varmint bullet and they didn't seem to be any better to me. Judging by the coyotes/jackrabbits I have shot, they open pretty fast, the remmy seems pretty soft to me. I have shot about 400-500 of them, and while probably better than say a TNT or Blitz, they are far from tough. Doesn't mean it can't do the deed though, if you put it in the right spot.

JTP inTX---I do use the Winchester and except the last two deer shot had complete pass through. The last two there was a mushroomed base found in the off side under the skin and these bases each weighed 40 grains--72.7% of original weight. All deer dropped on spot and were approached immediately --a couple showed life and were finished off. No tracking involved. I really can't see room for improvement nor do I believe a premium bullet would bail your daughter out if put in wrong spot. If your gun shoots them you are in business.

Errrrrrh - woff, woff

carpetman, I think you are misunderstanding me. What I am saying is I think the 64 powerpoint is ALOT better bullet than the remmy 55. I have no doubt the powerpoint is a good bullet and will do just what you say. I have heard too many good things about it not to believe that. I just don't put the Rem 55 psp in the same category. BTW, I just got some of the Winchesters to try. May even get some loaded up tonight.

JTP in Tx--I hear you. I think any of the 3 will do just fine. Just saying I don't think undergunned in least with thr Remington's or the Winchesters. As Gatogordo said let the youngster shoot it a few times and get use to it and not be afraid of it and with their young eyes and a good rest they'll put the bullet in right place. We used my folding WorkMate as a shooting bench and my great nephew shot several rounds--this was with my Rem 600 in .222 his next shot after practice dropped a deer. His dad ordered him a CZ in .223 and we used same set up to sight in scope several practice shots and then he got his second deer. His dad liked the way it performed, so he left his 30-06 and .243 home and he got 2 more with it.

"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here ……"

Quote from the movie Cool Hand Luke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...4Jsw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...UK6A&feature=related