quote:

Lot's of exciting things going on here at "MBIT"----MIB, can I get a black suit and glasses? That is sharp you know? MBIT is that close to MIB? Black suit, Lab Coat! Hmmmmm?

Excellent!

Michael

You mean something like this...
...except with a black lab coat?

Jim

Black Lab Coat! Now that has some appeal! Just not sure it would convey the same meaning as a White one?

Jesus, you guys are not going to believe what I have been subjected to the last few days. I have been reduced to a "Tourist" here in Charleston, since Thursday! Thank god it's the last day and headed home tomorrow. Right now I am watching people crawling like ants on the beach here on the Isle of Palms! Disgusting displays of whale fat flopping around, thank god I am in the AC and not subjected to close proximity of such. Fortunately it is close to roosting time, in the morning I am out of here and on the way home! Business back to normal!

A day or so to catch up and then hopefully some test work this week, terminals, and even some possible load data with the 458 B&M Super Short! Sam made some dies for it!!!! This is going to be one more fun little gun.

RIP--Looking to push the envelope, take the 458 B&M where no man has gone before! This I expect from you!

Michael

"RIP--Looking to push the envelope, take the 458 B&M where no man has gone before! This I expect from you!"


Long black lab coat, perfect, for MBIT.

Michael,

Yours dies were mailed Friday so you should be able to start loading by mid afternoon. OH Yeh That SHHH turned into over 30 bullets. Should keep you busy for a while.

Sam

quote:

OH Yeh That SHHH turned into over 30 bullets. Should keep you busy for a while.

Yahoo...We have interesting reading coming!!!

Well that is fantastic. I can split range time between load data for the 458 Super Short and some terminals with the new bullets and some backlog I already have. Excellent.

Waiting on the mail or whatever to deliver now!

Michael

Michael,

Has anybody built a 500MDM on a Montana Rifle Action?

MRC produces a Left Hand Stainless or 4140 action with a .534 Bolt face and a 3.650" magazine box. Would those dimensions work for a 500 MDM?

This may be painful to your eyes , but I believe the MRC action is very similar to the Winchester. They also use AI stocks so they cannot be all bad.

Mike
All the 500 MDM's have been built on the Winchester RUM action. The bolt and mag are fine for the 500. Action designed for RUM or belted? I don't know anything about the action, I hear they are good, copy of a M70. We could just scratch "Winchester" on it and it would be fine.

I would want to talk to Brian at SSK before doing anything, make sure it would retain is the only issue at all. He could call MRC and talk to them about it.

I will call Brian today and we will see what we can find out for you!

500 MDM is still too big however. Barrel too long at 21 inches, too heavy at 8.5 lbs. Going to figure out how to get it smaller?

Michael

Well thanks to Sam I was able to start some load development on the much awaited 458 B&M Super Short.



Me personally I have been very excited about this little rifle and cartridge. To refresh the memory a bit, the 458 B&M Super Short is a WSM case cut and trimmed to 1.65 inches. Very simply a squeezed down 50 B&M Super Short that most are familiar with by now. It calls home a Winchester M70 WSSM action, and 16 inch barrel, overall length 36 inches and 6.25 lbs, a handy tiny little bolt gun, like it's bigger brother the 50 B&M Super Short, same specs, .500 caliber.

Ever since the tests with the North Fork 325 and 350 Cup Points I have been excited about the possibilities in the 458 B&M Super Short. I think these two bullets will enhance the capabilities of this little cartridge and rifle combination. I am having visions of shooting some bigger things with this rifle and the North Forks!

I have only been working with one powder the last few days so I am just starting load development and it's a long process with many combination's that may or may not be optimum. Starting out with WW 297--exact duplicate of WW 296 that both do so well in the 50 Super Short. I am and already have reached upper max loads with several bullets which I am going to list below. My favorite combination is this;



Now we have a 300 Barnes TSX at 2358 fps, 350 Speer at 2160 fps, 400 Remington at 1945 fps, 325 North Fork at 2265 fps and the 330 Barnes Banded at 2213 fps. All with various loads of WW 297 and a Federal 210 primer. As we know from the tests on the 325 North Fork this bullet will work just dandy at 2265 fps at the muzzle.





Michael

Interesting.
At lower velocity, the North Fork Cup Points (as well as the Soft Points) may penetrate slightly deeper than they do at slightly higher velocity.
This is due to lesser bullet expansion diameter and lesser resistance of the medium at lower velocity.
Then, at even higher velocity, the CP and SP will fold back to smaller diameter, and the bullet still has adequate momentum and lesser drag,
so it penetrates deeper at higher velocity,
by counteracting the increased resistance of medium.

Initially it will seem to penetrate less with higher velocity,
then as velocity goes up, it will penetrate deeper.
Bi-modal penetration depth and wound profile as a function of velocity.

I think Mike Brady said something about this, years ago, regarding his soft point bullets.

Doc M seems to be starting to hint at this with the Cup Point results above.

RIP

I think on the low velocity you are correct to a point, with both CPS and Softs. However, as velocity reaches a certain level, penetration actually starts to increase, at higher velocity.

The difference between the reduced 458 B&M load and the 45/70 load is only an inch, when they get that close, it could be medium consistency too, I don't pay a whole lot of attention to an inch unless I retest and results are the same. 2-3 inches, yes.

Velocity getting close to 2700 we see it go to 26 inches. And I tested in the 458 Lott at a touch over 2800 fps and we got 28 inches, and the edges of the bullet started to shear.

I have in fact documented increased penetration with the increased velocity in the bonded soft points too.

I think in the long run you will see this with the North Forks, increased velocity, increases penetration with both the CPS and Soft bonded.

Now just as a reminder to all, Buffalo bullets, like 458 caliber 500 gr Woodleighs, 500 Swifts, and 450 Swifts all penetrate from 20-24 inches in this same medium, all of these light for caliber North Fork CPS bullets are right in that category!!!!! Just FYI is all!

Michael

Doc M said:
"I think on the low velocity you are correct to a point, with both CPS and Softs. However, as velocity reaches a certain level, penetration actually starts to increase, at higher velocity."

Rip says:
That was exactly my point, er, uh, Mike Brady's point.
MBIT test results are starting to hint at a proof of this.

RIP

OK, it's been a long week it seems, and I have not had all my meds for the week at the same time!

I swear it seems like 24 hours used to last longer, I could get more done, and now, I get half way finished and the day is gone?

Hmmmmmm?

M

I have to say something else too--See that photo with the North Fork box above and the little 458 Super Shorts???

Man I like that photo!!!!! I am putting that on the B&M site with the 458 Super Short today!


M

Damn doesn't that 458 supershort look cool!
Glad I bugged u into it
The 458 SS is to the 450 Marlin as is the 458 Suck em (SOCOM) is to the 45-70 but the 458 SS should handle the heavies better.
What did the case capacity end up being from once fired formed cases?

Boomy

Yes, I am intrigued by the little 458 SS myself. It looks like a "Puppy" to me next to the 458 B&M. Looks like the 458 B&M spit it out, should have called it the 458 B&M Jr.

I have it down with one powder now, with 300s to 400s. On the light side it seems to go far beyond 45/70 to the tune of 200 + fps with the same bullet, this is 45/70 18 inch marlins as opposed to the 458 SS and it's 16 inch barrel. But as we get to 400 grs that gap is getting closer, around 150 fps or so as best I can tell from my load data in 45/70. Which has been pressure tested to the marlins.

I don't really know working velocities for the 450 Marlin or 458 Socom? So I really don't know where it stands with them.

With the 300s I am up to 48 gr of WW 297, more than that I start running into some pressure. With the 325s at 46 grs, the 350s depending on the bullet at 45 grs, and 400s 42 grs. Now had an interesting issue with the 400 buster and 40 grs, blew a primer! Have not done that in a very long time! While the 400 Woodleigh (a very favorite bullet at lower velocity) did very well at 42 grs and 1988 fps. Not sure if I can go to 43 with it or not YET? The buster has to be seated too deep in the case to work, so it builds a lot of pressure. I won't use the buster in the 458 SS. 405 Remmies do well at 42 grs for 1945 fps.

I will be looking at some different powders this week. I think 297/296 is probably the best, but I want to look at a few more before saying so. Still lot's of work to do with it for load data. Just a start.

It's not reaching the 50 SS potential with the same weight bullet, but then of course it is not supposed to, it has less area in which to spread the pressure across.

Take that combo above however, the 325 North Fork CPS and the 330 Barnes Banded---that will enhance the cartridge and rifle to it's max potential in the field! I will be testing both this week in the box to see if they come up to "Buffalo Depth" or not?

I suspect both will!

Michael

Boomy

Oh and yes, I am glad that you pushed the 458 SS too. I was getting lazy! Job well done!

M

The 458 SS seem to match the 9,3x62 weight and velocity numbers.
Efficient little bastard.

Got myself a brand new 458 B&M!

M

Doc M, of MIB (McCourry Institute of Ballistics),

Where's the pics of your new .458 B&M?
Thanks for posting my pics of another .458 B&M at your web site.

Other business, it's official: MIB
Institutions sometimes shorten their initials.
Please do get a black lab coat, it will be cool in your air-conditioned lab where you don't deal with human patients.
Shows that pesky lint better than a white one, and won't show clean dirt like grease and gunpowder fouling!

Now, something personal (highjack on):
I need to announce myself as another posterboy for prostate cancer.
Yes, I joined the club!
I confided this to Michael, last week, as an excuse for not getting the .458 B&M work accomplished in a speedy fashion, as I had planned.
I will gitterdun, but have had a whole bunch of stuff pile up on me lately, and besides, it will only be confirmatory of a tiny aspect of Doc M's work at MIB.

I had a robotic, nerve-sparing radical prostatectomy 15 days ago. Da Vinci robot and a "Best Quality" urologist and hospital did it.
They stuck five pipes into my abdomen and pulled my prostate, intact, out through my belly button in an "endo bag."
Margins were clear, by pathologist, they got it all, best as can be ascertained.
I am now feeling great. I can now cough, sneeze, blow my nose, and break wind with no pain and without wetting my pants.
Urinary continence is returning!
I will soon be virile, vigorous, and potent as ever, with no worries about birth control. I will be shooting blanks that are really blank now!!!
I am not supposed to lift over 10 pounds for another couple of weeks, but I am hitting the trail for 3 mile walks daily, and will soon be jogging that distance.

My only sign of prostate cancer was a PSA that rose from 3.0 to 3.85 in one year, on routine annual screening. I got it early (age 55), and got it out early. Whew!

One in six men are getting this thing nowadays. That is more frequent than breast cancer in women, one in eight.
A lot of celebrities have had it, like George Hoffman, who died at age 68 of it, IIRC, detected too late to do much about it.
Also Generals Schwartzkoff, Powell, Petraeus ... they are all doing well now.
Arnold Palmer, Ken Griffey, Sr., Robert Deniro ... the list is long. About one in six of all men,
and maybe one in four of black men, according to USA data.

I have no blood relatives with it that I know of, though a beloved Uncle, by marriage, died in horrible pain with bone metastases from prostate cancer.

Modern medicine has just gotten to the point of excellent treatment options in the last couple of years, with the likes of the da Vinci robot, development of which was inspired by battlefield medicine. I think the best scenario is early detection and robotic prostatectomy.

Risk factors? Heredity, age, diet too high in animal fat/red meat/milk fat, meat and milk loaded with chemicals these days? That's about it, so far.

Just eat a healthy diet and get your annual prostate screening as recommended by your doctor. Age to start depends on family history, race/ethnicity, and other doctor-perceived hoofbeats, horse or zebra.

I am planning on being back at work come Monday, less than 3 weeks laid up. No heavy lifting for a while.

Highjack off.
Letter Rip

Hi Rip
wishing you a speedy recovery. Thanks for being an inspiration in your positive attitude and advocacy.

Hi Boomer,
Now you and Doc M, two of you, know about it, eh?
Me and Arnold Palmer, we're like this:
I am doing as well as my wildest dreams with this, just fine as frog hair, waiting for my shaved belly hair stubble to grow back, so I can comb it again!
Thanks for the best regards. You are indeed a wealth of inspiring and useful ideas here.
Best,
Rip

RIP

I am very pleased to hear that you are recovering quickly and back in the saddle soon! I think some of our regulars are out, I think Capo is in Oregon doing family issues, Dennis is off line for a bit I think too. Others will be coming around. In the morning I will take some photos of the NEW 458 B&M, XX English, GunKote finish, 18 inches, looks pretty sharp. Have not had time to set it up yet. BUSY BUSY BUSY. My friend Lou is off for moose in a couple of weeks, 416 B&M and 330 Brass Non Cons at 2585 fps, 50 B&M 350 Brass Non Con at 2450 fps! We will be awaiting bullet reports from those! setting up the rifles, busted the living crap out of a factory sporter stock on Monday in his 50 B&M, so he is taking one of mine on the trip. Also busted two scopes this week, 1.5X5s, out of focus, rattle rattle, but never lost POI, never have.

RIP, from day one on AR you have had my respect, and admiration, this continues to grow as time passes. I look forward to a visit in the near future my friend!

Michael

Thanks, Doc M!
I'll get to MIB eventually.
Best,
Rip

Good to hear the you are doing well RIP!
It was your enthusiasm (not unlike Ross Seyfried writings) for your .395 and your Iron Water Buffalo testing that got me coming to the AR site on a regular basis even though I have no need for any thing larger than a 35 Whelen here in B.C.
Take care and good luck ahead for you..

Low Wall,
Thanks a bunch, that means a bunch to me.
Hope you and yours are well.
I gotta go consume more fluids to challenge my bladder, exercise routine.
Best,
Rip

@RIP,

hope you´ll be "back in Action" soon....
All the Best !

Any more news from the tooling guy ??

Best
2RECON

Hey Rip,

I lost a best buddy 5 years ago this October 5th to the effects of prostate cancer...10years after it was detected, he didn’t catch it in time. I’m very glad you found this early on and had it taken care of quickly; don’t overdo anything and cause complications!

RIP

Maybe looking at this new Winchester M70 458 B&M will make you recover a little faster?

Well, it can't hurt anyway!





Michael

The 50s have been tough on things this week! Remember me telling you about my buddy with the cracked factory sporter stock? I finished it on out, 1 shot on Monday! This was only the beginning however.

The 50 B&M seems to be a little hard on things. This is the first sporter stock that I have seen crack. Brian gives them a good bedding job, and I literally have over a couple of thousand rounds thru gun #1 and it has the same stock. I suppose there was some grain in this area or something. But just one more round took it to this point.






Over the next couple of days I managed to explode two 1.5X5 Leupolds, and just this morning on the Maple stocked 50 B&M I blew up a third one. Same old story, goes completely out of focus above 3X, below 3X it's ok, and does not loose POI. All 3 rattle like a babies toy now!

Well, Accurate Innovations stock is in the works for my buddies rifle, and I suppose I will send the 3 scopes back to Leupold next week!

Been a good test week however.

Michael

Geez! That one needed some prophylactic crossbolts or a bedding block!!!

2RECON and capoward,
Thanks for the best wishes.
Let us now forget my prostate cancer. It is gone, incinerated in the medical waste disposal smoke stack!
As you were, gotta get back to the MIB studies now ...
... like looking at all the .500 caliber bullets on Doc M's site ...
...and yes, this beauteous specimen of .458 B&M makes me smile: Bedding block




Rip "Ron Internationale Permanente" Posterboy for da Vinci Prostatectomy

RIP

Accurate Innovations, yes full aluminum chassis standard fare. I was ass backwards on this build! I had the stock done before I figured out what sort of rifle I wanted in it. When I got the stock and took a look around, I figured I really needed another 458 B&M! So that is it.

This stock is out of the same bunch the 500 MDMs were built on. Was very very pleased with the English Walnut, but it comes in 1/2 lb heavier than myrtle, maple, claro and turkish.


I was pleased with the knots and figure on the rear of the stock. I do love the uniqueness of wood stocks. Adds character I think! Got to take this one to hammer a few buffalo.

Michael

quote:

Over the next couple of days I managed to explode two 1.5X5 Leupolds, and just this morning on the Maple stocked 50 B&M I blew up a third one. Same old story, goes completely out of focus above 3X, below 3X it's ok, and does not loose POI. All 3 rattle like a babies toy now!

Only one thing to say, "Schmidt&Bender"

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Over the next couple of days I managed to explode two 1.5X5 Leupolds, and just this morning on the Maple stocked 50 B&M I blew up a third one. Same old story, goes completely out of focus above 3X, below 3X it's ok, and does not loose POI. All 3 rattle like a babies toy now!

Only one thing to say, "Schmidt&Bender"

TOO BIG---TOO HEAVY---AND TOO EXPENSIVE, out of my league!

Going to swap the VX3s for VX2 1X4s. Seems the 1X4 VX2 is holding up better, so think I will try those out on the 50s.


M

Agree, those S&B SOBs are too much in many ways except on low recoiling, long and heavy P&M-sniper-typer rifles!

Just get used to the 2.5X Leupolds! They take a licking and keep on not ticking, no rattles!!!
Or just keep Leupold busy repairing the busted other ones.

quote:

TOO BIG---TOO HEAVY---

They take a licking and keep on ticking, check out the new Summit

The only scope they have that even comes close to being suitable on a 50 B&M is a 1X4. Not really good eye relief, and 30 MM. The 30 MM knocks it out of the running on a 50 B&M. It's just way way too big on those rifles.

Leupold offered to trade my 1.5X5s with the VX7 1.5X6 or whatever they are, but they are WAY too big also, 30 MM. I refused, but let them talk me into trying one. I did, just as I thought, way to big, I sent it back saying thank you very much.

30MM is just way to big on these little rifles. Looks like some sort of damn spotting scope on top of the gun! Awful, and heavy too. I probably can break those too. Broke everything else.

30s are out.

Seems to be more of an issue with the VX 3 than the Vari X III. Seems to be more of an issue with both the 1.5X5s 3s than the 1X4 VX2....Maybe. Could be I just have not shot the 1X4s as much, I am not sure. Going to see if I can trade the 3s for the 2s and give them a run.

I like the 2.5X RIP, but I have got so used to the field of view on the 1.5X5 The 2.5X just does not come up to standards now. I have a 2.5X on one of the Super Shorts, and it's just lacking to me on that point.

But agreed, would just have to get used to it. I can shoot them, on target fast, all that but just love that big field of view when things are close.

1X4 VX2s with heavy duplex. Try that for a bit.

Zero issues with any of them on 458s. Busted one on a 500 and a bunch on the 50s.

M

I have a 1.1X4 S&B on my 416 Rigby and love it. Beats a third tier Leupold by a wide margin


Specs ont S&B 1.1X4

Weight
Twilight factor
Eye relief
Click value
Field of view 16 oz.
3.5/8.9
3.70" Eye Relief
.540"
96/30 ft @ 100 yards


We're all men here and should be able to handle 16 ounces and 3.7" of eye relif works for me

JWP

Gees, good god, your 416 Rigby is just a tad over 6 ft long, and weighs in at 15-20 lbs and makes that S&B look small on that big gun! On my rifle the S&B would be bigger than the rifle!!!!!!



M

RIP -
First read about your prostate cancer just now. Sorry to hear that, but good that it was taken care of so early. Prognosis is very good then.
Wish you all the best and a speedy recovery...



Ulrik