I got an obscene phone message today? Yes, it's true, someone left a message that all B&M rifles should have to wear S&B's standard fare! Can you believe that? Scope is bigger than the rifle!


News from North Fork! Prototype 450 FPS/CPS and 375 FPS/CPS .500 caliber bullets on the way! New 450 gr Bonded Core .500 caliber bullet designed for the 50 B&M Alaskan is official, all machining has been ordered it's a matter of time, a few months it seems. Like ordering dies! The bullet is designed, it's on the drawing board, it will work in both Marlin and M71 lever guns, and best of all, Michael thinks it will work in the bolt guns slicker than................! Pretty much a full line of North Fork Bullets, for all of the .500 caliber B&Ms. Michael is very excited about this.

Other North Fork News!

It seems the powers that be at B&M Rifles and Cartridges are partnering up with North Fork on other projects!

On the new upcoming 475 B&M and the 475 B&M Super Short we will have a full line of .474 caliber bullets for these cartridges as well as the .500s!

In addition to all that, for those that are doing the 410 B&M, we will be working on some new bullets especially for that caliber and the 410 B&M. Chopper, you listening? Boomy? Might be time to save those pennies boomy and do a 410 B&M, you have been hocking it for a year or more! Time to put up or shut up? Getting ready for real bullets in this caliber, in addition to what is already there, I think a 400 FPS.

A cartridge or rifle is only as good as the bullet it carries! The bullet does the work!

Michael

Michael,

Now I have to build a 475 and 410 B&M! Man you sure know how to mess up a guy. I've got lots of .474 400 grain Gold Dots on the shelf and that 410 would have made more since than a .416 with all the 41 magnum bullets out there. Have quite a few .410 Woodies on the shelf too. I guess you'll have to come up with a .451 B&M, .429 B&M, .400 B&M and super shorts to go with them. You really started something didn't you? All GREAT!

Sam

I was wondering what I was going to do after the 475s? I am not doing a 410 myself, chopperguy is doing the 410 when the reamer gets in.

HEH! I am not too worried about getting bored, I am sure between You and Boomy, you guys will keep me busy!

Michael

You've got the guns and the bullets figured out now what? Lets go hunting!

I think I will take a break from the field this year. Hit it hard next year and knock off some buffalo if I can get enough on quota to be worth messing with. I will have several North Forks to hammer buff with, so I need a few buff to get a good test with!

M

410 B&M was born for this length.
Pistol bullets for deer and plinking
405 win bullets for PG to pigs to bear and moose
450/400 bullets for the big 5
Pick your poison 200, 300 and 400 grains.

Boomy

I suspect it won't be so long on the reamer, maybe another month or so. Chopper best get his rifle ready I think!

Yep, should do all the things you say, and then add the North Forks in the mix for bigger stuff! Should do dandy!

I have some Ruger #1s listed over on gunbroker, 458 Lott, 470 Capstick, and 458 Winchester and a 1886 Winchester Guide Gun in 45/70 if anyone is interested, the gunbroker price would not be a buddy at AR price either! Just FYI, moving some things around a bit! Making room for new things!

Michael

I bet if you rechamber the #1's to 470 and 450 NE they might move faster but then you might want to keep them then.

Boomy

I am spoiled now. I have had these guns for a few years. I have never even fired the 458 Lott, just never got around to it. Shot the 470 Cap about 20 times, and the same for the 458 Winchester. I have so much going in the B&Ms I don't have time for these, nor the inclination. The lever guns in 45/70, well with the 50 B&M AK, I have no use for a 45/70 anymore. So I took 5 of the Marlins I had, put them in the to build rack, in case someone wants a 50 B&M AK in a Marlin, I have 5 guns to sell them pretty reasonable. I am keeping 1 Hi Grade Win 1886 that I made into a guide gun and shot a couple of bison with and keeping my 1885s in 45/70. The rest hit the road! With the 458 Super Short and the 50 BM AK, no need for them anymore. And the #1s, I will never use them, they are gathering dust, might as well make some room.

Michael

I know this is posted on terminals, but since the bullets are designed specifically for the B&M rifles and cartridges I figured post them here too.

The new North Fork .500 caliber FPS and CPS bullets for the 500 MDM and 50 B&M at 450 grs and for the 50 B&M Super Short a 375 gr version of FPS and CPS.




450 Gr FPS and CPS in 500 MDM and 50 B&M













And the 375 FPS and CPS in the 50 B&M Super Short







These new bullets take the 50 B&M Super Short to much higher performance levels than ever considered for it originally. And a tremendous boost in performance for the 50 B&M and the 500 MDM. I know what I am shooting buffalo with next year!

Michael

Finally some of the new dies have started coming in from Hornady. Yesterday I received the 375 B&M, 458 B&M Super Short, and the 9.3 B&M order. I think all that is out now is the 50 B&M Alaskan and 458 BMSA dies? Will have to check on that?




Now John can go to work on getting load data for the 375 B&M. Looking forward to see what he comes up with on that.

Michael

While waiting on the new 9.3 260 gr Solids from CEB to come in for testing, and waiting on the prototype 68% meplat North Fork solids in .500 caliber, and taking a few days off from terminal tests, does not mean we are not doing other things here! Load data, brass tests, and other little things almost every day.

One of the things I have been looking at is some suitable scopes besides Leupold for my rifles.

As most of you know I am pretty much a hard head about some things, Winchester or nothing, Flat Nose solids, or nothing, and a few more too. Leupold is in that category also, but I am not so hard headed that when I have a problem with something that I don't look for alternatives! A year or so ago I had been having a terrible issue with some of the Leupolds, I use 1.5X5 VX and older Vari X 3s, along with a few 1X4 VX 2s. In an 18 month period I had returned 13 of these for repairs, all 1.5X5s. Most of the time, loose focus above 3X, loose inside parts of some sort, but never ever loosing POI, which speaks highly for reliability even when broken. Leupold folks are great to work with, even going above and beyond to help me. At one time they wanted to replace all the 1.5X5 with the VX7 version. Well as you know the VX7 is much more expensive than the 1.5X5. But at the same time, it's a 30mm tube, and heavier, bulkier, and just not suitable for an 18 or 20 inch B&M rifle! I said thank you, but no thanks. Finally they did talk me into trying one, I did, it was exactly as I thought, I sent it back with a sincere thank you.

Just a couple of weeks ago I managed to bust 3 more 1.5X5s in a very destructive week, along with a sporter stock on one of the 50s. Currently all three scopes have been sent back to Leupold for either repairs or replacement with the 1X4 VX2, which seems to be holding up or I have just not shot them enough to bust them yet, I am not sure which. Scopes get changed often here for test work on different rifles.

Almost all of these problems are caused with the 50 B&M. If anyone ever thought the 458 Lott was bad on scopes, it is a pussycat compared to the 50 B&M. Not in recoil, perhaps not in impulse or any other measure, but there is something. I suspect more than anything else it may be the placement of the rings on the scope body as anything. I am looking at that now as a possibility. I am not sure that one can actually blame the scope itself or it's construction, it very well may be something on my end of the deal.

When it comes to Eye Relief, field of view, size, weight, length and other factors, there is nothing that can compare with the 1.5X5 Leupold, other than the 1X4 VX 2 Leupold.

30MM is out, it is NOT an option on these guns, damn scope is bigger than the rifles!

So I am looking at something beyond the specs given on some scopes and trying a few out just to see.

This week from Midway, I decided to get a 1X4 Nikon African something or other in, and a little Weaver 1X3 just to see what the story is.



First the little Weaver is excellent for size, near perfect. Field of view is very good, on par with the Leupold. Eye relief is a little short, less than the leupold. This will eliminate it on the 50 B&M and the 500 MDM, but it will be fine on 458 B&M and less, probably very good on all the Super Shorts. It's clear. It's cross hairs are a little smallish, a duplex but not as bold as I would like. I had it on a 458 B&M yesterday, with 25 in lbs of torque it turned in the rings?? So I took it off and will put it on a Super Short to try out.



The Nikon glass is very clear, german #4, which is not a favorite, but ok. Eye relief is pretty good, very close to the Leupolds. Field of view is very good too. Scope is a little bigger, little heavier. I don't like the adjustments, way too tall, and I don't like that big knob of an objective. Focus adjustment is great. Will just have to try it out later today on the 458 B&M to see how it does.

So you see, we do more here than just terminals!

Michael

I think I saw on the F&S web site a report from Dave Petzal while he was at the last SHOT show, and he mentioned that Nikon 1x4 African as being a brand new offering.

And I am sure I will irritate you again by saying...peep and post and a scout scope!!!

quote:

Originally posted by johnnyreb:
I think I saw on the F&S web site a report from Dave Petzal while he was at the last SHOT show, and he mentioned that Nikon 1x4 African as being a brand new offering.

And I am sure I will irritate you again by saying...peep and post and a scout scope!!!

Hey Johnny

First, no you won't irritate me at all. Do recall, ALL of the first B&M rifles had the forward SSK--T'SOB rail put just in front of the receiver for scout scopes! Every single one of them! Set up too with ghost rings and posts! Exactly as you say. Problem is with the scout scopes, all of them, they come up very very very short on "Field of View" and I like a lot of field of view! Personal thing!

I like the Nikon with the exception of the tall adjustment knobs and the over size objective mess. Very clear, lot's field of view and excellent eye relief, price is good, would prefer a heavy duplex as opposed to the german #4, but that is another personal thing. We will see how they do?

M

Yeah, I remember the peep/post/scout scope rifles from the first few pages of what must be the longest running thread on AR that I can remember... I would have had a 458 B&M in hand had I not had to spend $3k on knee ligament surgeru for my furry buddy, Grendel the GSP.

I just saw on Huntington's web site that Woodleigh makes 480 grain bullets specifically for the 458 Winchester, which I assume means the crimp groove is in a different spot than the 480 for the 450 Nitro? Think you might eventually try some of those out?

And who is the company CEB that makes 9.3mm 260 grain solids?

Glad the dies are rolling in. Hope the 410 ones come soon too.
I am excited for you that the new CPS design from NF is a great success. They seem to split the difference in trauma and penetration between softs and FN solids so a great versatile bullet. Maybe NF will make these nose profiles for traditional weight bullets in 375 to 510 diameters. Maybe call them Expanding Solids.

Johnny

Sorry about the knee surgery, heard those are not much fun! Hope you recover quickly!


As for the Woodleigh 480, I sorta doubt I will invest in that. A soft round nose would be dandy, but so is the 500 Woodleigh SN. It's excellent at 458 B&M velocities 2150 fps or so. But the 458 B&M is built for 450s, like the North Fork, the Swift and even lighter heavy hitting Non Cons, brass HPs at 425 hammer! I doubt I will personally put anything in the 480 Woodleighs.

CEB--Cutting Edge Bullets. Very new to big game solids and what have you, so I am helping out with that and having them do some custom bullets for me, and of course anyone here that would want any of them too. I will be keeping good stock on the bullets I have them do. Go to the B&M website you will see more about them.

I received the prototype 9.3s today, they are excellent looking bullets, too heavy, at 270, but the final run will be around 250-260 grs. 67% meplat too. I will be testing them tomorrow. I have 9.3 figured this way. There is no decent worth a damn 9.3 250-260 gr solid on the market, and those of us who like the 250 gr 9.3s, such as the Barnes X would like and need a solid in that weight class. For the 286 gr weight class in 9.3 we have the 286 North Fork to fill that gap, and it does so perfectly. So we need a 250-260 to match up with the 250 gr bullets for same POIs and velocities.




Boomy

We are still a ways out on the 410, 475 B&M and the 475 B&M SS. Still waiting on reamers. Then build the rifles. Then send brass to Hornady for dies, at least 4 months at Hornady. If I had to guess right now I would say 7-8 months minimum before the first rounds are fired!

Oh man, the North Fork CPS 450s and 375s in .500 caliber take the .500s to entirely new levels! I promise this. The 450 CPS takes the 50 B&M deep into buffalo hammer time! It was good, it was far more than just adequate, with the 450 CPS it turns into a buffalo hammer! The 500 MDM, speaks for itself on buffalo! Now, with the 375 CPS and the 375 FPS, this moves the 50 Super Short into that territory, the penetration is there! Remember, 500 Woodleighs, 450 Swifts and North Forks, and 500 Swifts all from 458 Lott at 2250 or better penetrate from 19-24 inches, and we know these are great for first shot buffalo bullets! The 375 NF-CPS from the 50 Super Short--23 inches! What can I say? Except that I have to give it a go at some point!

Also the new 400 CEB is doing extremely well too. Today, I took it to 2050 fps in the 50 Super Short and one hole at 50 yds. It's a 44 inch bullet too! I am liking my 50 Super Short all over again with these new bullets!

Michael

Michael
The 510 grain CEB in the supershort might be interesting to test for shits and giggles in the 50 Super Short. Might be good for 1500 FPS and see how it compared penetration and wound channel to the 400 grain. The 510 CEB could be a engine block buster in the 50 BMAK.
I don't doubt buffalo would be dead as dead with the 400 CEB out of the super short going 2050 FPS.

Would be good to see how the 375 CPS do faster out of the 50B&M and 500MDM. Should be a terror of a wound channel with limited penetration.

With my Lott I can shoot the 500gr solid bullet at
2362fps and those plane 500gr bullets at 2280.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael
The 510 grain CEB in the supershort might be interesting to test for shits and giggles in the 50 Super Short. Might be good for 1500 FPS and see how it compared penetration and wound channel to the 400 grain. The 510 CEB could be a engine block buster in the 50 BMAK.
I don't doubt buffalo would be dead as dead with the 400 CEB out of the super short going 2050 FPS.

Boom

I looked at putting the 510 in the SS, damn bullet almost as long as the case however. The 50 SS can run the 500 Hornady at 1700 fps without trouble, takes 40 gr WW 296. But the 510 solid is a little too long.


Also I will run the 375 NOrth Forks thru both 50 B&M and 500 MDM when the final production run gets in. This time I only had the prototypes, so had to put them where they were designed for to check them out. The 50 should run the 375 to 2400 or so, and the MDM to 2650 or so I would think.

JRO

Yeah, my lotts can do the same thing. Problem is they are 46 inches long, weigh 10.5 lbs and not .500 caliber? I will match my 50 B&M with a 510 Solid at 2150 to the lott any day, or the 500 MDM with 550s at 2250, and I only have to carry 8 lbs of gun that is 38 inches long for the 50, and 8.5 lbs and 42 inches for the 500 MDM. How do I know this? I have a half dozen lotts that have been retired forever. Some I have carried many many miles! Still love them, but they are not going to the field again!


Michael

michael458, I appreciate the kind words, but it was not me that had the knee surgery, it was my furry little buddy, Grendel the German Shorthair Pointer. He had what is referred to as TPLO surgery, and is 95% of his old self, which is good enough for me. His surgery took up some funds I wish I could have allocated elsewhere (ie, 458 B&M), but I am glad that he is as mobile as he once was...

Johnny

Well, that's even better, sorry about the dog, but while it might be tough on the pocketbook, it would have been tougher if it were your knees! Yeah, I have an idea about those things, I have a $600 stray cat that had some vet work a couple of years ago, along with some dog broken legs in past history. Don't take long for those bills to equal a nice rifle!

M

What is it like to shoot the B&M guns and ammo?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm6-LMiF49w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOcgWtm_hqI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htnA3BOjOuQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iNExKsWMak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueIYHayupkQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNR5mqOkHqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk7hawil4lo

The one below is the Super Short 3 shots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XshWtXrMhGo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-Qw3quIueg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZzIgHvC20U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8TnRY9ThJg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8WIbziQq3E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPq18QdQteM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGjvGL51ueM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHs_qQJuj6Y

Well that looked pretty easy! Didn't see anything rocking you backwards, looked about like shooting a 22 if you ask me!

M

I think a lot of people are afraid to shoot guns 3 lbs lighter than nominal but once you handle and shoot them that all goes away. Double rifle velocity, 18" barrel and 6.5 lb gun is my new ideal for a rifle thanks to you Michael
The 6.5 LB short barrel gun is great to carry and handles so well. You just have to handle them to be converted.

Boom

That one rifle you are talking about, the 458 B&M with the Ultimate stock in stainless. I had that in Alaska in 2008 for bear, as backup to that same stainless 50 that you have too! But the 50 had wood on it. I used the 50, but the 458 would have been absolutely the perfect Alaska rifle with that Ultimate stock and 350 North Fork CPS at 2400 or 400 Swifts or NFs at 2350, perfect setup, plenty of power, 6.5 lbs, short and easy to handle and carry all day.

With the new North Forks the 50 Super Short also enters into that same arena, 1/4 lighter, and 3 inches shorter! Also enter the 458 Super Short, 325-350 NF CPS and 330 Barnes Banded. All would qualify.

Man, lot's of good options for these things! It makes it hard for me to choose.

M

News on the 375 B&M. As most know, I am not much of a 375 fan at all. However, our very own JohnOMS is working on his 375 B&M now that the dies have come in. He sent some info yesterday on some load data he has now. Looks like a 270 gr bullet at a tad over 2700 fps and a 300 gr bullet at 2550 easy.

Remember, the rifle is a Winchester M70, WSM action, 20 inch barrel. 2.25 inch case.

How does that fit in with other 375 cartridges? I pay little or no attention to these matters in 375, so I don't retain that knowledge, even after you tell me!

Michael

.375!, .375, .375! Yeah!
Michael, don't think you will be happy with the Weaver scopes. Tried one testing a 9.3x74R, and it walked from right to left about 2" with each 5 shot group. Ended up about 6" from starting point. also tested a 1-6 Swarovski on a .35 Whelen. Great clearity, but with it's 30mm tube, looks out of place.
Have you tried a holographic sight of some sort?
I still think Leupold is the toughest thing out there at the moment. Maybe a Leupold scout scope mounted forward with rings in better locale?

Hey Dennis

Where have you been?

Well this is a little Weaver 1X3--it's not 30MM, it's 1 inch tube. It won't work on the 50, 458 B&M, not enough eye relief. I have it now on a 50 Super Short, seems to be ok for the moment, but I have not shot much with it yet. So we will see, but it's not the answer I need. Maybe ok for the SS guns.

Yes, tried some Aimpoints. But in brush I don't see it so well.

Scout scopes are tough, I have had one on the 510 Wells from day one, probably 300-400 rounds thru it no issues. Problem is with the Scout scopes, all of them, they have a very poor field of view for things up close. So I take them out of the equation because of that. No, just about perfect is the 1.5X5 or 1X4 Leupold. Perfect in every way, size, eye relief, field of view, just hard to beat. The Nikon I have on the 458 B&M is doing very good, but it is slightly bigger, and has those big stupid knobs for adjusting! Another one that is very close is the Trijicon 1X4, it's very good too. So I will continue to investigate this. I have to, currently 3 scopes in to repair right now.

So is the 375 B&M starting to work at those velocities???? I don't know much about 375 you know?

M

Been in the middle of my house remodel for the most part, and just lurking on big bores.
Yup, you are right about the 1.5-5s for sure. But, I do like my straight 2.5 Leupold on my .375 ruger. Not the field of view, but gives me more room for my hand on the grip when carrying without hitting my right wrist, and I am betting a bit more durable then the variables. Out to 500 yards, it has plenty of power for me on my .375.
You know Michael, the .375 IS a few thou. bigger then the 9.3. . . . .

Heh, wondering if you put one of those 'sorbacoil' recoil reducers in the stock, if it would fix the problem. The problem being though, it would add a bit of weight to an otherwise nice light package.

Well, one thing Michael, you are creating a need to be filled with a better scope; just maybe Leupold will step up and deliver!
Call them the 'B&M' series leupolds.

Dwright

I have a 2.5 Leupold, in fact it's current home is the 458 B&M Super Short, which is excellent by the way, and more fun than ought to be legal! But the only issue I have, small one, is the field of view is not what the 1X4 or 1.5X5 is. Comes up a bit short on close things. I have an object at 10 yds from the Lab Door I check these things with and it's a perfect thing to check at 10 yds, if I can see what I want at 10 yds, good to go. Not, then not good to go.

All the 1.5X5s are happy on everything, except the 50 B&Ms. The 50 B&M is tough on them, and about 90% of the issues has been on a 50. Of course that scope may have ridden around on a 458 or 416 or super short for awhile, hard to tell here, but when they bust, it's on a 50 B&M.
So it should be the "50 B&M Leupold". It's tougher on scopes than a 458 Lott by a long long shot. I have only busted a few on 458 Lott.

M

Heh, not a bad idea. I live just about 120 miles from the Leupold factory. Mybe I could run up there and work a deal with them.
The heavy recoil '50 B&M series' scopes.
Yup, just might take off.

Dennis

Here's a look at the 458 Super Shorts, I loaded up a bunch yesterday for Corbin and Sam to try out this morning.

Those are cool looking little cartridges. Be kinda fun in an XP100!

D
Don't let size fool you. Getting some surprises, 300s at 2350, 325 North Forks at 2250, 330 Barns at 2215, 350s at 2170, and 400s at 1975 so far. Trying to get to 2000 with a 400 and stay safe, but not quite there yet. I think it's doing it's best at 325 and 350. The 325 North Fork Cup Point is giving incredible performance, along with the 330 Barnes Banded. Well into buffalo territory!

Michael

Got another notice from John today on the 375 B&M. He now has the 270 Hornady at 2795 fps and the 300 Hornady to 2570 fps all within safe margins.

All 375 fans, how does this work out in comparison to other 375s? Sounds pretty good to me so far?

Michael

Michael,

That velocity with a 270 grain is great. Does John's gun have an 18 or 20 inch barrel?

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Got another notice from John today on the 375 B&M. He now has the 270 Hornady at 2795 fps and the 300 Hornady to 2570 fps all within safe margins.

All 375 fans, how does this work out in comparison to other 375s? Sounds pretty good to me so far?

Michael

Damn Michael. . . . . . . Now THAT one's got my attention.

Gunna have to keep an eye on this one, (perfect for my huntin'). . . . .

Thinkin. . . .

Damn! Have a feeling this one is gunna somehow cost me. . . .
Maybe not now, maybe not next week, but soon. . . .
Hmmm, gotta get this remodel done first. . . . Yup. . . . that's it. . . . Focus there Bunky!. . . .

Back to reality. . . .

I like the idea of a good hard hitting .375 in a short action. . . . This one sounds like it could be real winner.
I think that caliber draws a lot of interest with it's versatility. It's certainly got mine.

DWright

Well I would think that for 375 caliber folks that was not to bad out of a Winchester M70, WSM action, and 20 inch barrel. Gun probably comes in at no more than 7 lbs in an ultimate configuration. Barrel is .720 at the muzzle (I think) and even my 9.3 B&M with a AI wood stock only comes in at 7.5 lbs. Like all the B&Ms they are at their best with a one step down in bullet weight per given caliber, 458 at 450s, 416 at 350s, and I suppose 375 at 270s. But a 300 at 2570 seems pretty good to me too.

Yes, I think the B&M family has added a good cartridge/rifle combo for those that favor 375 caliber.


Michael