Chopper

That stainless gun above with the maple attached to it is a 458 B&M, the only working 458 B&M I have now that is 20 inches. Of course the maple is destined for a new 18 inch 50. Just put it on to see what it looked like on a rifle.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Dwright

Better leave enough ammo for Jim too, heh! Gees, I have so much going on right now I can't keep up or remember even what I sent to you, what loads. I think I might have got cheap and send some 350 Speers or something, along with some of the 330 Brass HPs, but I forgot already!

See the email about the Jury Duty, can't repeat that in public, but it's a sure way to get out of jury duty in a hurry, or it is here in SC.



Chopper and Boomy

OK OK, I have to get busy and send some drawings up to Brian then he will get with Dave and make us some reamers. I still have to do that with the 475 B&M and the 475 B&M Super Short. While we are at it I will go ahead and get us a reamer for the 410 B&M. Bullets are .410 or .411 right? So we can call it the 410 B&M, this is the 2.25 inch version.

Remind me, a 450/400 is .410 and shoots a 400 gr bullet at 2150 fps right? If that is the case then the 410 B&M should do that easy and at less than 55000-50000 psi, way under max pressure easy. Way under. The 416 is capable of 2200 to 2300 fps with a 400 in 18 inches of barrel depending on the bullet. I think it's the Woodleigh I can get to 2300 fps in that little 18 inch gun Dennis has right now, or the Hornady one or the other, with WW 748 and 60000 psi. So a .410 400 at 2150 should be easy easy with plenty of room to spare.

Of course it's a process, a week or two for me, 2-3 months with Dave on a reamer, couple of months on a real gun, then 3 months, maybe for dies from hornady. So maybe by this winter we can have a working gun and doing load data? I reckon that's not too hateful starting from zero.

I don't know much about .410 bullets? Mike has been testing some on TBP, so that is good and I have been paying attention to that. But I have not looked at what was available.

Chopper, do me a favor when you get a chance. Take some of the .410 bullets you have and measure from the cannelure to the tip of the nose, then overall bullet length, I want to check overall for the magazines. Might go 2.240 like I do with 458-416-9.3 and I think 375 so things fit in the magazine nicely. I like things to not only work proper, but look right too! I like short necks too! And I like loaded ammo that looks right, not half done! I think both 475 and 410 will come in at 2.240 case length to be right.

How's that? Better not let me forget, I may forget all this by morning?
HEH

Michael

Can I vote for 400 instead of 410 for nomenclature? I think Hornady decided to go 410.5 as a happy safe middle ground but I think most bullets are a tad undersized due to the variety of 400's. The reamer and dies should be designed to use 411 bullets and 410 pistol bullets will expand in barrel.
This idea is perfect for 450/400 performance in a tidy light package as the original double rifle was. High SD 400 grain bullets @ 2150 and 300's @ 2500 from an 18" barrel short action is sweet.

I agree, stick with the .411 bullets and I also like the 400 for the name.

The Swift bullets I have are likely a sized .416 A Frame as side by side they look identical.

The standard for years in the 450/400 was exactly like you stated for velocity.

Chopper and Boomy

When I want to know what is available, easy to get, I normally just take a look at Midway and see what they have on hand. I did that for the .410s, and see that there is anything from .408 to .412, most falling in at .411 it looks like, some at .410. Pretty sure .410 would do fine in .411, do we agree with that if we go with a .411 bore? I think that is what both of you are saying, and you know better than me. So with that I request a .411 bore size.

Lighter bullets I like the looks of that .411 Barnes TSX at 300 grs! Barnes also has a 400 gr .410 FN Solid!

Hornady both 300 grs in .410 and .411 and 400 the same, 410 and .411

Woodleigh softs 400 gr in .408 and .411, Hydro Solids 400s in .410, Softs at .410 too,


Not quite as much as 416 caliber, but enough to do I suppose.

OK so any other votes for 400 B&M?

411 barrel.
Them 300 grain tsx will be good for so many things.

Heh Michael, no worries about the ammo, I only shot a few this go round. Plenty for Jim to try out. He's gunna like it. . . . . a lot!

Will be done sending 'Carrot Top' to room with O.J. tomorrow night, so no worries now there either.

Cheers all. . . . .

Dwright




OK boys, concerning the 400 B&M. Now since I have the 416 B&M, it offers me nothing. So I am going to do it like the 375 B&M. Whoever wants to build one, I will get the reamer in, and take care of all that, put it under the B&M name, but who gets in line first gets gun #1. I will help get the dies, and help with the load data, brass and everything I can do, but you will do the load work, the shooting, and such, and of course get the rifle through SSK where the reamer will be! All the support that would go with any of the B&Ms. Much like JohnOMS is doing with the 375 B&M.

So who's in?

Edited--There is some confusion to my statement I think. Is there anyone, Chopper or Boomy, or whoever, that wants a 400 B&M rifle? That's what I mean. If so I will get the reamer going no problem. I am just saying that for me personally right now I am opting out of actually having one myself, at least to begin with, because the 416 B&M serves that purpose for me. So if I am getting a reamer done then we will need someone that wants a rifle in 400 B&M. Not a bad idea, and would be fun of course, and with all the .410 handgun bullets can be downloaded to play with.

M

I'm in. I'd love to do testing, however with the time lines looks like rifles next winter. Not a good time to do testing here. I like to enjoy shooting and testing, not have to endure it during sub-freezing temps. Now spring time is another story!

Like stated before - Stick with the .411

North Fork has a really nice 300 & 360 available. I also have several lead bullets from the 405 Win in various weights that would be nice plunkers.

Then the 400 grain stuff for serious shooting.

Can shooting be serious when it's so much fun???

Chopper

Ok then, I will get on it and send what we need up next week to get started on the reamer. Time line is probably best case, a lot depends on the dies of course!

.411 it is! I spoke with Brian about it yesterday so we are set to jet.

400 B&M on the drawing board, along with 475 B&M and 475 Super Short. All going out next week.

M

Michael,
Just a thought ... use a 0.410" bore. That's what Ruger has used on their 450/400NE ... that's what most pistol projectiles are. A soft 0.408" projectile in a 0.410" barrel should be fine, a 0.411" projectile in a 0.410" barrel should also be fine.

Alternatively ... ask that the reamer pilot (if solid) be cut 'loose enough' to definitely fit both 0.410" and 0,411" bores.

The 458B&M should be here this week. Passed test firing at the gunsmith ... 400gr Speer FN feeds fine, but the 325gr Woodleigh hydro won't even think about it. I just asked it come back as I can have a feed 'wiz' look into it later.
Cheers...
Con

I am more worried about the propper twist of 1 in 10 or 12
I guess we need to see what the barrel makers offer for a fast twist be it .411" or .410"

Chopper/Con

I will consult Brian and JD on the .410 vs .411. I think really either way one would be good to go. The .411s are Woodleighs, they are soft, so they should squeeze easy????

Con, check the position of the follower, if it is too far forward (forward I think) that tends to push the nose down. Of course the only ones I have had my hands on are the 400s that you sent, they feed fine in one of mine. So I am sure it can't be much.



At Corbins urging today, we sorta fire formed the only two 458 B&M Super Short cases I had, still no dies so can't really do much. I stuck 35 grs of WW 296 in the two cases and a 300 gr Remington HP. Well, zero neck tension, can't size, can't squeeze the neck, so they are loose loose in the case, easy in and out with your finger, have to hold them in place to chamber. Shot the two, one gave 1890 fps the other 1860 fps. That's already 45/70 velocity and not even trying, can't even do anything except sit some bullets on top of the powder! Fire formed looks better, but still not enough pressure to sharpen the shoulder!

Oh Well, still waiting on dies, but it does look very promising!!!! I think it is going to far exceed anything a 45/70 can dish out! 6 lbs, 16 inches of barrel, 36 inches overall!

Oh this is going to be FUN!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I am more worried about the propper twist of 1 in 10 or 12
I guess we need to see what the barrel makers offer for a fast twist be it .411" or .410"

No worries, I will check on twist rates for sure. See what is available.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
The .411s are Woodleighs, they are soft, so they should squeeze easy????

Yes they should. Woodleigh now makes 0.408" (really only for historical old pieces), 0.410" for the Ruger and 0.411" for the 405Win and other 0.411" bores. But over there I'd have thought the Hornady projectiles at 0.410" would be easily procured ... we're struggling with US shipments ... very slow and sporadic.

Bertram brass makes projectiles and I'll be testing his 0.408" in my Ruger 450/400 with 0.410" bore today. One thing about his projectiles (made on equipment well over 100 years old using dies and punches ) is that they are 'old school'. The heel measures up at full size, but then they run 0.001" undersize. From my readings I've gathered the old projectiles were often so designed. To cut a long story short ... I think at 0.410" most 0.411" will work (especially if the reamers throat is made to allow them), but at 0.411" some 0.408s may be really loose.
Cheers...
Con
Just adding ... checked the Woodleigh catalogue and noticed their 405Win is listed as a 0.412" projectile. What does Hornady's 300gr spitzer list at? A 300gr spitzer and 400gr RN solid/soft would surely cover all bases. throw in pistol projectiles and you have a FUN rifle.

Hornady spec is .411" for the 300-grain 405Win bullet.
That is below the cannelure.
Ahead of the cannelure it is only .409" and tapering fast.
Seated at the cannelure it will fit a "zero free bore" or "leade-only" throat.

Ah…back on the internet after 3-days of the BlackBerry not working correctly as a wireless modem on the laptop.

400 B&M…Here’s my 2₵ on the 400 B&M nomenclature as well as whether to use a .410” or .411” groove.

Regarding the “400” nomenclature. I recommend using either 410 B&M or 411 B&M depending upon the selected barrel groove diameter. It would also maintain the “historical” naming convention of the B&M cartridges… though I have noticed that Michael has been referring to the upcoming .475 caliber B&M and B&M SS as 470’s rather than 475’s.

Now regarding the barrel’ groove dimension. Does anyone currently possess some of the prospective .410” and .411” NF, Barnes, Hornady, etc. bullets to be used? If so can you measure the major diameter of the bullets and post of the thread? Then match the barrel’s groove diameter to the “cleanest” size that will safely handle the solid brass/copper bullets…

Michael…I dropped by Dennis’ gun shop and we had a nice though short visit…shooting will take place this coming Wednesday. Also, I’ll be dropping by the gun shop tomorrow for another visit and I’ll be taking a few 50 MDM dummy cartridges with me so that Dennis can get an idea of the upcoming round will look like.

Boomy…don’t know how long we’ll be here in Oregon so likely will not make the Hoot and Shoot next month. I have been plastic jugs though just in case I can make it. I’ll let you know for sure as time gets closer.

As far as I know all rifle bullets should be made .411 unless made for the .409 Hornady went with 410.5 on the 450/400 bullets for Murpheys sake but yes measuring bullets to be used makes the most sense. Bullets that should be measured. The Barnes 300 X bullet, Hornady and North Forks. If going with other than 400 my vote is 411.
Thanks for the heads up Capo.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Regarding the “400” nomenclature. I recommend using either 410 B&M or 411 B&M depending upon the selected barrel groove diameter.

Smart move! The 400Pondoro for example is a 0.409" ... damn confusing. Likewise the 425WestleyRichards and its 0.435" bore.
Cheers...
Con

This week I will speak to Brian about what barrels are readily available in .411. We will want at least I think a 1:12 twist. Also it looks like .411 bore. But again, will confirm what we can get with Brian and JD. Cartridge is the easy part, we just squeeze a 416 down a bit. Not even sure I will draw anything, maybe Jim can draw us up a nice drawing later when he gets back home. I will just tell Brian what we want, let him and Dave sort it out proper.

Honestly I like either 410 B&M or 411 B&M proper. Less confusion down the road I think. I get confused with something that is so far away from actual myself. So if I have a vote I like 411 B&M. As for the 474 caliber B&M, I like 475 B&M and Super Short. At least that is close!

Chopper is going to be the first on the 411 B&M so he gets a big vote on the name too.


Jim, I sent some dummys to Dennis, I think 2 each, maybe you can talk him out of a few??? By all means take him some 50 MDM, and remind Dennis that might just fit in that small bore Ruger he has in 375??? Maybe put a few of those in the magazine box, see how they fit!

I am going to send Boomy some B&M rifles for the guys to play with and shoot at his Hoot and Shoot. Planning on sending a 500 MDM, 458 B&M, 50 Super Short (If I can pry that one from Dennis before then) and a 416 B&M (maybe I can get that one too back from Dennis before the shoot?) If not I will send Boomy an extra Ultimate Stock for the 458 B&M, as I want the guys to see just how small you can get one of the guns, and light for other duties, such as Alaska!!!!!! I am particularly interested in reactions and what the guys think about them. I need to start loading some ammo for those guys this week too!

I hope this week I will be starting some standard old load development with the 375 B&M or Sam's modified 375 B&M. There is 1 gr of H2O difference in Sam's modified and the actual 375 B&M, the B&M at 89 grs, Sam's 88 grs. Not enough to make any difference. I am hoping to get John something worked up with a 270 gr Barnes TSX at 2600+ for an elk hunt this fall, if the 375 B&M dies get here in time! Hopefully they should. I think it is going to be pretty easy to break 2600 with a 270 as Sam and I already have a 300 at 2550 easy. So should be a no sweat mission.

While doing that I will finish the box of medium I have on some more Hawk work for Dave, and set up two new boxes of medium, test the 500 gr Hornady DGS again in 458 Lott. And be ready for the North Fork project when the bullets arrive!


So we have some good projects coming up.

Michael

Sincwe I literally have HUNDREDS of .411 bullets softs and solids from Swift, North Fork, Barnes & Woodleigh and some .410 lead here (Long story of another project that never materialized) I would really like to see the .411 on this project and don't really care what its named.

Really don't want to have to lay in another supply of projectiles!

M,
No worries, I'll get the rifles in route back to you ( very, very reluctantly however), right after Jim & I shoot up all the remaining ammo; probably by this next Friday . .

I'm already making a plan of attack to chop off the .375 barrel a couple of inches, and replace the front band sight with a nice NECG band sight. (I'm spoiled now)! Waiting for you guys to finish the Ruger vs. H&H testing.

Heh, how many think these are better then the 'who's taken big game with a .243' thread. . . . ?

OK, that's it. . . . I got nothin'

Heh Jim, what you think of our shop. . . . . ?

quote:

Since I literally have HUNDREDS of .411 bullets softs and solids from Swift, North Fork, Barnes & Woodleigh and some .410 lead here (Long story of another project that never materialized) I would really like to see the .411 on this project and don't really care what its named.

Chopper…My intent with the “measure the bullets” comment wasn’t to exclude either bullet diameter…it was to actually determine what the true bullet diameters for each respective caliber were.

If there’s one thing that I’ve deduced from this thread it is that bullets are rarely sized exactly to the labeled diameter when it relates to +40 caliber bullets. This category of bullets seem to run plus/minus inch diameter in the range of +.0005” to +.001”/-.001” to -.004” from the specified (labeled) bullet caliber/diameter. And it seems that the major manufacturers can be the worst as far as maintaining specification. And yes, I acknowledge that the custom shops; e.g., Lehigh, GSC, NF, and S&H definitely run much tighter tolerances to the specified caliber. And perhaps this is because it has only been within the past ten years that the +40 caliber diameters have actually somewhat stabilized to a more exacting specification.

Dennis…your shop…my perception: one word…”Excellent!” An amazing amount of quality stuff displayed for the available floor space…extremely well organized…so many quality guns…so little time…if only I lived closer! I think Michael would have been interested in a few of the Winchester lever actions displayed on the walls.

I should have added the following to my earlier post:
I am far more concerned with the true bullet diameters of the Barnes TSX/TTSX and BND SLD bullets for each caliber as I perceive that many individuals will utilize these bullets vis-à-vis the Swift, NF, or Woodleigh…and NF will correctly size their .410/.411 caliber bullets for your barrel' bore/groove diameters…and Woodleigh sells multiple diameter bullets in this size range anyway. Basically my jest is that if the .411 caliber Barnes bullets run .409” to .410” in band diameter and the .410 caliber Barnes run .408” to .409” in band diameter then it would make perfect sense to use a quality .410 caliber barrel as it will typically run .410” to .4105” groove diameter. Especially with .411 caliber barrel diameter specification being either .411” or .412” groove diameter depending upon the barrel manufacturer.

quote:

…the 375 B&M or Sam's modified 375 B&M. There is 1 gr of H2O difference in Sam's modified and the actual 375 B&M, the B&M at 89 grs, Sam's 88 grs.

Ok Michael…spill the beans, “what’s the difference between the standard 375 B&M and Sam’s modified 375 B&M?”

Inquiring minds want to know!

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
M,
No worries, I'll get the rifles in route back to you ( very, very reluctantly however), right after Jim & I shoot up all the remaining ammo; probably by this next Friday . .

I'm already making a plan of attack to chop off the .375 barrel a couple of inches, and replace the front band sight with a nice NECG band sight. (I'm spoiled now)! Waiting for you guys to finish the Ruger vs. H&H testing.

Heh, how many think these are better then the 'who's taken big game with a .243' thread. . . . ?

OK, that's it. . . . I got nothin'

Dennis

Yeah, after you and Jim get thru with them is just dandy. I think I have changed up a bit since this morning anyway. I think I am going to send two 458s, one blue 18 inch with a turkish stock, one Ultimate stainless 18 inch gun. Both set up for different jobs to show the versatility in the two. Then a 500 MDM, maybe that last stainless English gun. Then the 50 Super Short that you have for them to get a taste of tiny!

The test Jeffe is setting up with the 375s is further reaching than some folks actually understand. For you, absolutely will have direct bearing on your 375 Ruger. For me and Jeffe, and others to see we are going to learn about cartridge efficiency, not the BS the manufacturers play with in the little guns, 30s and less, but real efficiency in larger bores. What will apply with the 375 Ruger will be even more so in Jeffes AR cartridges and the B&M series guns. While I in no way consider 375 a big bore, it's a start, and I have learned the larger the bore, the more efficiency you start to see. The 458 B&M starts to show that easy in it's barrel lengths, more so than 416 and less. When you get to .500 in these cases it becomes even more apparent. So the 375 Ruger vs 375 HH goes far beyond it's initial intent. Also this efficiency will show up quite a bit with Jims 50 MDM! Far more so than the 375 on the same case. I see no reason to have more than 20 inches of barrel on Jim's rifle. He could easy do 18-19 and do very good. HEH.

A what? 243 ? Hmmm, I don't need one! Boring, horribly so! I have a real hard time working up any interest at all in anything less than 9.3 these days, and that's borderline. In fact I have done little work since getting the basic load data on the 9.3 B&M. I figure with a 250 Barnes TSX at 2700 fps in the 20 inch barrel, that will do every thing I need to do with a small bore, kudu and such. But I will have some of those big 320 Woodleighs in my back pocket just in case! I should have got some of the North Fork Solids for that gun! Maybe I still can get another NF order going.



Oh, FYI, NorthFork is very willing to do a special order, caliber of choice, like .500 caliber, for minimum of 5 boxes and a 15% over normal charge! That's the way I understand it anyway, very very reasonable for a custom bullet! I think I must get my ducks in a row and see about some .500 caliber bullets in the very near future! But what weight, for what cartridge, 50 B&M and 500 MDM, solids! Maybe a 450-475 gr solid for both? Maybe some CPS bullets too?

At the NRA show Swift had their new .500 caliber bullet on show, think I mentioned this, it's 325 grs. I was hoping for a little more weight, but I am not terribly surprised. Still it would do well I think on many thinner critters for both the 50 Super Short and the 50 B&M.

No worries on the 411 B&M, I will get some word on that this week and we will sort it out proper so it works with the most bullets available. Which seems to be .411 from what I hear, and I would think .410 expanding bullets would be just dandy in a .411 anyway.


But, still guys with this caliber do some measuring and let's see what might be best for us to do too!

Chopper seems to have the most, and is building gun #1. So I am listening.

I am beginning to ramble!

Michael

I thought I’d throw this into the mix…something to consider before determining whether it’ll be a 410 B&M or 411 B&M. Barrel data pulled from manufacturers who offer multiple groove diameters in the range being discussed:

Krieger Barrels ($310 CM – - - Non-standard Twists: $25):
40 Caliber: .406 thru .409” groove diameter / Twist Rates: 16” & 18”
405 Caliber: .411” groove diameter / Twist Rate: 14”

McGowen Precision Barrels ($155 CM / $230 SS):
40 Caliber Rifle/Pistol Barrels: .408” groove diameter / Twist Rates: 13” & 20”
41 Caliber Rifle/Pistol Barrels: .409” groove diameter / Twist Rates: 14” & 18”
405 Caliber Rifle/Pistol Barrels: .412” groove diameter / Twist Rate: 12”

Pac-Nor Barrels ($230 CM / $260 SS - - - Super Match: $255/$280):
408 Caliber: .408” groove diameter / Twist Rates: 13” & 16”
411 Caliber: .410” groove diameter / Twist Rate: 16”
405 Caliber: .412” groove diameter / Twist Rate: 14”

So there you have it…The only consistency is the lack thereof.

Edit Added: Might I suggest again that bullets be measured and then the optimum groove diameter be selected to accommodate the preferred bullets…whether it be .410”, .411”, or .412” groove diameter…and then name the cartridge to match the groove diameter.

quote:

FYI, NorthFork is very willing to do a special order, caliber of choice, like .500 caliber, for minimum of 5 boxes and a 15% over normal charge!

I believe that the 15% over normal charge will relate to the first order only if they’re requested to maintain the CNC programming data for future orders.

Inconsistancy the only consistant lol
Mcgowan .412 with 1 in 12 twist has my vote so far. The long high SD 400 grain bullets need twist to be stable in game.

I guess more barrel hunting might be needed

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
I thought I’d throw this into the mix…something to consider before determining whether it’ll be a 410 B&M or 411 B&M. Barrel data pulled from manufacturers who offer multiple groove diameters in the range being discussed:

Krieger Barrels ($310 CM – - - Non-standard Twists: $25):
40 Caliber: .406 thru .409” groove diameter / Twist Rates: 16” & 18”
405 Caliber: .411” groove diameter / Twist Rate: 14”

McGowen Precision Barrels ($155 CM / $230 SS):
40 Caliber Rifle/Pistol Barrels: .408” groove diameter / Twist Rates: 13” & 20”
41 Caliber Rifle/Pistol Barrels: .409” groove diameter / Twist Rates: 14” & 18”
405 Caliber Rifle/Pistol Barrels: .412” groove diameter / Twist Rate: 12”

Pac-Nor Barrels ($230 CM / $260 SS - - - Super Match: $255/$280):
408 Caliber: .408” groove diameter / Twist Rates: 13” & 16”
411 Caliber: .410” groove diameter / Twist Rate: 16”
405 Caliber: .412” groove diameter / Twist Rate: 14”

So there you have it…The only consistency is the lack thereof.

Edit Added: Might I suggest again that bullets be measured and then the optimum groove diameter be selected to accommodate the preferred bullets…whether it be .410”, .411”, or .412” groove diameter…and then name the cartridge to match the groove diameter.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Inconsistancy the only consistant lol
Mcgowan .412 with 1 in 12 twist has my vote so far. The long high SD 400 grain bullets need twist to be stable in game.

I guess more barrel hunting might be needed

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
I thought I’d throw this into the mix…something to consider before determining whether it’ll be a 410 B&M or 411 B&M. Barrel data pulled from manufacturers who offer multiple groove diameters in the range being discussed:

Krieger Barrels ($310 CM – - - Non-standard Twists: $25):
40 Caliber: .406 thru .409” groove diameter / Twist Rates: 16” & 18”
405 Caliber: .411” groove diameter / Twist Rate: 14”

McGowen Precision Barrels ($155 CM / $230 SS):
40 Caliber Rifle/Pistol Barrels: .408” groove diameter / Twist Rates: 13” & 20”
41 Caliber Rifle/Pistol Barrels: .409” groove diameter / Twist Rates: 14” & 18”
405 Caliber Rifle/Pistol Barrels: .412” groove diameter / Twist Rate: 12”

Pac-Nor Barrels ($230 CM / $260 SS - - - Super Match: $255/$280):
408 Caliber: .408” groove diameter / Twist Rates: 13” & 16”
411 Caliber: .410” groove diameter / Twist Rate: 16”
405 Caliber: .412” groove diameter / Twist Rate: 14”

So there you have it…The only consistency is the lack thereof.

Edit Added: Might I suggest again that bullets be measured and then the optimum groove diameter be selected to accommodate the preferred bullets…whether it be .410”, .411”, or .412” groove diameter…and then name the cartridge to match the groove diameter.

I perceive that is the reason the .416 caliber won the 40/41 caliber contest...a consistent groove diameter.

Sure added to it but of the 400's the 411 came out the winner. All the largest bullets are 411 and 410 will work fine so 411 it should be IMHO. Question is finding a true 411 barrel with a fast twist. Anyone know of a fast 411 barrel???

Actually I believe traditionally the longest/heaviest bullets were the 400gr .408" to .410" diameter. The .411"/.412" bullets were traditionally 300gr for use in 405 Winchester. Still haven't seen a flood of 400gr bullets advertised in the .411" diameter even after the release of the 411 H&H Magnum.

Time to throw this thread back towards the top…will be meeting Dennis in a couple more hours to terminate some targets… Should be a very enjoyable cloudy day, mid-50’s, interrupted by rain showers on a very often basis…Dennis says to get ready to get muddy!!

We’ll be shooting one each of Michael’s 50 B&M SS and 416 B&M…as well as Dennis’ new short barreled 375 Ruger…plus anything else that Dennis brings as well as one of his buddies should he come along. I’ll post our fun filled results later today…hopefully without too much mud adorning the bodies!

Well Jim, what did you think. . . . . ?

I may have to wait until morning to see what you two did today! I't damn near dark here now, time for me to roost!

M

I owe Michael some feedback on the two B&M chambered M70 Ultimate synthetic stocked rifles that he was nice enough to send to Dennis for testing…and me getting to piggyback on the shooting. So here goes!

Right up front… before I departed California Michael and I had already discussed the fact that the two rifles he’d sent to Dennis for testing would be short for me. The trip to Oregon was not a pleasure trip and space was limited in the car so no shooting gear would be going North with me. I figured with all the hoopla over Michael’s short/light rifles that I would shoot them as they came and give an honest opinion of them. As it turns out…post shoot…the measured trigger pull length of Michael’s two stocks is 13-1/4 inches; I require a 14-1/4 inch to 14-1/2 inch trigger pull length stock for proper fit with warm/hot weather clothing so that’s how we stacked up.

The shoot took place on state forestry land a few miles West of Lorane, Lane County, Oregon. It was an overcast day with drizzle and rain forecast… Double tee shirt and pull over windbreaker took care of the drizzle and wind mid-morning with windbreaker removed thereafter.

First up…The 50 B&M Super Short…all 36-inches and 6-1/4 pounds of it! I handle the 50 SS… this is truly a short-light-handy rifle! Oh yeah…this is truly a short rifle!! There’s no scope attached so I only have to worry about keeping the thumb out of the eye. So load up three rounds…bolt open and walk away from the jeeps to shoot…load a round…draw down on a tree stump about 25-yards away…steady on the sight picture…slowly squeezing the trigger… Oh yeah it was definitely a kick firing that little 50 for the first time! Definitely should have used a rolled up towel or purchased a slip on recoil pad for the shoot…but I have neither and time’s a wasting so I just take aim and fire the two other rounds giving the tree stump a triple whack.

How did I like the 50 B&M SS? Truthfully, I liked it. I liked the cartridge as well as the rifle and fired up most of the rounds that Dennis had saved for me from the initial ammo box as well as a few from the second box that Michael had sent for my use over the day. This little cartridge would be deadly on pigs, bears, and anything else shot within reasonable range. If you’re a bolt-guy and hunt wooded areas where the open spaces do not exceed…say 125-yards…this would be a very deadly cartridge for your use. For me, as tested, it would be a perfect cold weather/heavy jacket use rifle. For warm or hot weather use I definitely require an inch longer pull length stock and would balance that with a 17-inch barrel…

Second up…the 416 B&M…all 38-inches and 7-1/2 pounds of it! Same short trigger pull length as the 50 but this one has a 1x4 Leupold scope mounted on it so now thumb/eye and scope ring/forehead are now into play. How did I like it? Well, it took 61 years but I now have a scope ring kiss, and that occurred within the first 6 rounds or so when I had a brain slip and crawled up the stock a bit. The good news, no thumb in the eye! I shot multiples of every bullet sample that Michael provided for the 416.

On the way out we stopped at a known distance shoot location. Here we shot at a 10-inch diameter heavy cloth rag on a wet dirt bank from an overlook that was 325-yards away. It was a cross-canyon style shoot with a variable 5+ mph breeze blowing from left to right. I was pleasantly surprised at how accurate Michael’s 416 B&M was with – I believe as the load paper was missing – a 350gr Barnes TSX bullets at this distance. I placed two rounds very close to the same spot near a tree limb on the dirt bank about 6” above and 6” right of the heavy cloth rag; this was offhand with no sling or rest.

Did I ask how I liked the 416 B&M? If the trigger pull length was an inch longer on this rifle Michael might not have gotten it back!

In addition to firing around 20 rounds from Michael’s two B&M rifles, I fired Dennis’ M77 375 Ruger with its newly minted 17-inch barrel…I lost count but think it was somewhere ten to 12 rounds worth…split between close range and at the 325-yard distance. And Dennis’ Ruger has a 12-3/4 inch trigger pull length! This rifle was very accurate at the 325-yard distance and Dennis’ chronograph testing at our first shoot stop indicated very little velocity loss with his handloads after the 3-inch barrel loss.

Dennis and his buddy Ron were wonderful hosts and true gentlemen to be around…and they are excellent shots with pistols...as well as their rifles…very accurate with both!

Oh…Before I forget… The question or comments always arise regarding the light weight of Michael’s rifles and how recoil-punishing they must be. I’ve not shot anything recoiling heavier than 12 gauge slugs and 00-buck shot from a 7-1/2 pound pump shotgun during the past 10-years. The recoil from the 416 B&M and 50 B&M SS cartridges/light rifle weight combinations was noticeable but was truly not an issue of concern; the trigger pull length was definitely the issue as the stocks were ill fitting for me. But I can truly say that I have suffered far more painful recoil from magnum duck loads in a single barrel H&R shotgun and from firing 180gr 30-06 loads in an ’03 Springfield with a short pull length military stock than from either of Michael’s short-light weight rifles. And had I been shooting at live animals I’d likely not have noticed the short stock or recoil at all…but most likely I would have more than one scope ring smile.

It was a very enjoyable shoot. I do freely admit that after firing the last four or so rifle rounds at 325-yard distance my shoulder had finally had enough of them for the day; the approximate 30 total rounds did me in and I passed up any further rifle shooting.

Would I shoot any of Michael’s rifles again? You betcha! In a heartbeat I would. And I may as it appears that we may be back in California in time for the Hoot and Shoot I just might get my chance! BUT I will be using a PAST recoil shield or a slip on recoil pad to length the trigger pull length.

Many thanks to Michael and Dennis for this shooting opportunity; I apologize to both for this short dissertation as it does not do justice to the three rifles tested.

It’s late, actually early AM on the West Coast, but I’m trying to get this finished for early East Coast reading...so I apologize for any misspellings or garbled sentence structure; I’ll clean them up later today as its time to post and then hit the rack.

Jim

It appears some of the small Ultimates you would need another inch on the stock would help a lot! Amazing, you need an inch, Dennis needs an inch off! Well, that's the "Long & Short" of it I suppose (yes, pun intended) HEH! But seems you guys still came out ok regardless, with only a few bruises and cuts for your experience!

I am pleased to hear that you might be able to make boomies Hoot N Shoot! I am planning on sending some things out to Boomy for that. Right now I have what I call two 458 B&Ms ready to go, except for some loads. An Alaskan, Ultimate Stainless, sighted for lighter bullets from 300-400 grs. Then another one with turkish AI stock for heavy bullets, 450s for heavy work. Then I will send the 50 Super Short that Dennis has right now, and also the English 500 MDM too.

Glad you guys enjoyed and had a good time with the rifles!

Michael

I received these the other day and was very pleasantly pleased with both!


Both are Winchester M70s of course, 500 MDM, 21 inch barrels. One is a matte finish gun kote rifle which I really like a lot, the other is SSK blue which is always super.

Both are fitted with XX English Walnut stocks by Accurate Innovations. They did a super job on these stocks and I am very pleased with them. Standards on all my rifles now, and stocks are Classic Shadow line cheek, ebony tips, Decelerator, these are hand checkered, and inlet front and rear sling studs, supreme oil finish. Of course the standard AI full aluminum chassis that the rifles sit in.

In addition to the chassis these guns are bedded too for even a tighter fit. NECG barrel bands and rear.












I had SSK build both these guns in case someone is milling about and wants a 500 MDM sometime in the future. But after getting them in my hands I am not so sure I am willing to part with them? They did come in a little heavy at 8.75 lbs, I did not realize that English Walnut was a little heavier than other woods. These are exactly 1/2 lb more than my other 500 MDM rifles.

Michael

Very nice looking rifle's. . . . !

Hey Jim,

It was a pleasure meeting and shooting with you. I had a great time.

Michael has some very nice rifles. I would have to say that the .416 would be the one that I wouldn't mind having, it peaks my interest. Although the butt stock would have to be a bit longer for me.

Your "Scope Rash" was an understandable incident. However, no EMT's, tourniquets or stitches were required. I'm surprised that I didn't suffer the same fate.

I was concentrating on preventing a thumb induced Lobotomy, so it probably prevented me from getting within biting distance of the scope. I will bring some Super Glue next time.

I'm glad you had a good time...And now have an idea of the suffering we have to endure.

Ron