DWright

The difference in the WSM guns, like the 50-458-416 stocks is exactly 1 lb. Ultimate stock weighs 1.5 lbs, claro walnut at 2.5 lbs. I suspect the WSSM gun would be very close to the same, so about 1 lb heavier with walnut.

AI has not built a WSSM stock yet. Soon, I will be sending them a gun to go by. This summer most likely. Has to be the same length and match up with the Ultimate stock.

Michael

Thanks Michael, ya, I like the lighter one much better. That kinda being the whole idea; to keep size and weight to a minimum.

Dennis

Heh all,
Went back thru some of the pages of this post regarding these cartridges, and came back across one from Dave Bush, with his comment of "why"?
After shooting the little 50 super short, I myself without a doubt know 'why'.
These little rifles pack one hell of a punch in such a small, handy little package.

In the first pic, I'm holding the little 50 and my fairly small, light weight .375 ruger. As you can see, the Ruger is a lot bigger; and 1-1/4 lb. heavier.

I shot up 38 rounds at various distances; enough to have a good idea what the round is capable of, up close, and out to 500 or so yards.
Now, my .375 for sure shoots flatter, but the little 50 shoots much flatter then I expected.

I know that the little 50 has no where near the power of the 50 B&M, but it has enough for most chore's I encounter here in the west, within about 250 yards; which is plenty!
When it comes to recoil I found it quite mild really. About like a marlin guide gun with hot .45-70 loads. No big deal! But when it hit's, the difference is quite impressive to say the least.

I think Michael has a great little round here, and as he say's; you really have NO idea just how nice this rifle is to handle and shoot until you try it. I now know for sure 'WHY' Michael has put so much time, effort, and money into these projects.

I've owned several big bore's up to a .460 Weatherby, and could shoot them all pretty well. But the thing that stands out with Michael's rifle is how much faster it is to get shouldered and the first shot off accurately, with extremely fast follow up's.
The difference IS amazing, and something anyone hunting dangerous game would be crazy not to consider.

I personaly have no desire to buy or have built, another full sized rifle in the larger bores. If I do have one built, it will be one of these baby's, but possibly a .458 or .416 for they're cast bullet capability.

Those short little 16"-18" barrels just can not be beat for ease of carry, or quickness on target; and his case design allows plenty of power in these short barrels for the work at hand.

Dave, you really should give one a shot!

I don't think anyone that does try one will ever go back to one of the standard sized rifles we are all used to!

And that's what I think of Michael's rifle.

Michael... Will you be testing these 330's in the 458 SS???

Boomy

Those 330 Barnes are going to be a mainstay for the 458 B&M Super Short. A perfect matchup with either the 300 TSX or the 350 TSX! That little solid will enhance the performance of the super short tremendously! That bullet will allow the Super Short to go places!

DWright

That's a whole lot of kind words you put forth!

M

JohnOMS just sent some photos of the new Gun #1 of the 375 B&M. I don't know much about 375, but Sam and I already have a 300 at 2550 fps with zero issues with RL 15. So I suppose the little 375 B&M will be in pretty good shape compared to other 375s in it's class, but I don't think any other 375 can compete with size of the rifle and weight. So there!



The 375 B&M should complement John well as a good medium caliber to go with his 458 B&M, 416 B&M and I think a 50 B&M Super Short too!

John, it looks great, can't wait until the Hornady dies get in!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Heh all,
Went back thru some of the pages of this post regarding these cartridges, and came back across one from Dave Bush, with his comment of "why"?
After shooting the little 50 super short, I myself without a doubt know 'why'.
These little rifles pack one hell of a punch in such a small, handy little package.

In the first pic, I'm holding the little 50 and my fairly small, light weight .375 ruger. As you can see, the Ruger is a lot bigger; and 1-1/4 lb. heavier.

I shot up 38 rounds at various distances; enough to have a good idea what the round is capable of, up close, and out to 500 or so yards.
Now, my .375 for sure shoots flatter, but the little 50 shoots much flatter then I expected.

I know that the little 50 has no where near the power of the 50 B&M, but it has enough for most chore's I encounter here in the west, within about 250 yards; which is plenty!
When it comes to recoil I found it quite mild really. About like a marlin guide gun with hot .45-70 loads. No big deal! But when it hit's, the difference is quite impressive to say the least.

I think Michael has a great little round here, and as he say's; you really have NO idea just how nice this rifle is to handle and shoot until you try it. I now know for sure 'WHY' Michael has put so much time, effort, and money into these projects.

I've owned several big bore's up to a .460 Weatherby, and could shoot them all pretty well. But the thing that stands out with Michael's rifle is how much faster it is to get shouldered and the first shot off accurately, with extremely fast follow up's.
The difference IS amazing, and something anyone hunting dangerous game would be crazy not to consider.

I personaly have no desire to buy or have built, another full sized rifle in the larger bores. If I do have one built, it will be one of these baby's, but possibly a .458 or .416 for they're cast bullet capability.

Those short little 16"-18" barrels just can not be beat for ease of carry, or quickness on target; and his case design allows plenty of power in these short barrels for the work at hand.

Dave, you really should give one a shot!

I don't think anyone that does try one will ever go back to one of the standard sized rifles we are all used to!

And that's what I think of Michael's rifle.

Dennis

The 50 Super Short runs about 250 fps less than the larger brother, the 50 B&M, and the big brother 500 MDM about another 250-300 fps more than the middle brother! This is my brother 50 my other brother 50, and the big brother 500! HEH, something like that.

The 50 and 458 B&M handle very much like the little brothers, just ever so slightly more length, but feel and handling pretty much the same, the 416 B&M with the 18 inch barrel handles the same, but when we go to 20 inches that is getting pretty long, still all handle far better than any 22-24 inch bolt gun ever made. I can personally attest to that. I hesitate to put this term on them, but I do think of them this way, they are mighty fine "fighting" rifles if you get in a tussle in the field, that's what they are all about. That's one major reason they were designed to begin with. And they do that job better than any bolt gun I have ever used.

I think for your purposes for all around do anything gun would be the 458 B&M with an 18 inch barrel, stainless and ultimate stock! I think that's you DWright!

As far as never going back once hands are laid upon! Correct, I have a safe full of 416 Remingtons, 458s, 458 lotts, 358 STAs and 338s all Winchester M70s all retired and will never see the field again! For my medium I will take the 20 inch 9.3 B&M from now on, if I can find a use for a medium? The 416 B&M has been serving as a fine medium for me, it hammers impala, oryx, kudu, wildebeast and such as that! HEH!

Michael

I might just have to build an 18 inch 9.3 B&M to see what happens. I was surprised at how well the 416 B&M did with 18! Might be surprised at 18 with the 9.3 too?

Hmmmmmm?????? I bet the 375 B&M would do with an 18 inch tube too! Say take a 100 fps off that would still leave 2450 for a 300 gr bullet! Hmmmmmm? I think that would be plenty, eh? Also cut the weight down a 1/2 lb to 6.5 lbs with the Ultimate stock! Yep, it's 18 for me, bet I can still take down critters with 100 fps less velocity! Don't think they much care one way or the other, and I would love to get rid of that "LONG" 20 inch barrel and 1/2 lb of extra weight!

M

Ya Michael I think you are right about the .458 B&M being just about perfect for my use. Especially with my hardcast LBT's.
Also thinking however that one in either the 9.3 or a .375 for the small stuff, would round out my arsenal with the .458 as a Elk and Bear stomper up close. Then I think as much as I like my little .375 Ruger, ( at least I thought it was little till I handled that 'super short'), it would be up for sale, as after handling that super short, my Ruger feels like a tank, and I can't go back damn it!

Heh Michael, just before I sent you that pic in the gun shop, the local government Bear hunter buddie of mine stopped in and I showed him the little 50 super short. He handled it just a bit then lit up with a big grin. He was amazed at how it came up. I just keep getting that same reaction with everyone that shoulders it.
I also must say that after careful consideration, I think the Winchester actions are the only way to go. They're light enough, well made, and the reciever is nicely rounded and well shaped to make a slick looking package. In comparison, my Ruger is heavy and blocky. I just have to figure a way to chop an inch off of those plastic stocks and still have them look desent, with that pattern in them.
Hmmmmmmmmm. . . . .

As far as me saying some 'kind words' about your rifle Michael. . . . NO way! Nothing but the facts, man, nothin but the facts.

Heh, come to think of it, as I handle most of my other rifles, except for the light weight Kimbers, they all feel like anchor's when compared to that little 50.

I think you are really on to something here Michael!

Say you did the 375 B&M with an 18.5" barrel and got 300 @ 2400 that is awesome and the same performance as the 375 rimmed!!!

Recoil would be tolerable in a light rig.

Now that we are on the topic of "Small stuff" a 9,3 and 375 Super Short could be interesting.

Boomy

I am quite sure that the 375 B&M would shoot a 300 at 2450 with 18-18.5 inches of barrel. I don't think that would be an issue. Of course to me a 375 anything is nothing more than a medium to be used for medium work, not heavy. So considering that dropping bullet weight to 250-270 or whatever 375 bullets are available would be the ticket for it. My 9.3 B&M with 20 inches shoots the 250 Barnes at over 2700 fps, more than enough to do my medium work, replaces all my 338s and 358s for that work.

9.3 or 375 Super Short? No. Drop below 458 caliber, even 416 caliber you start loosing most of your versatility in bullet selection. Most all are too long to fit in the magazine of a WSSM action. Even at 458 it is going to work with 400s or less, most bigger are too long for the magazine.

This is the same with the B&M case at 2.240-2.250, drop below 9.3 and most 358s and under are too long for the cartridge and magazine, you might as well drop the case length to a WSM case to get those to fit, and even then some of the heavier bullets in 358 and 338 are too long. So 9.3 is the bottom end of the B&M case--to fit in a WSM action.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
... I would love to get rid of that "LONG" 20 inch barrel!

M

Michael - your are mad

I did a straight neck up of wssm brass to 35 and it looked pretty cool. 35 rem bullets are short and will feed with the wssm oal limitations.

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
... I would love to get rid of that "LONG" 20 inch barrel!

M

Michael - your are mad

Totally INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!

But hey, don't believe me, poor DWright is sitting out on the far coast with a 16 inch 50 Super Short, and can't take his hands off of it. By the weekend he should have a 18 inch 416 B&M in his hands, we will see how he thinks that handles, and later Capoward is going to get his two cents worth in with both of them too. I suspect they will end up about as insane as I am too!

Anyway, I hate like hell to have a barrel longer than my "GUN" that I was born with, so I like 18 inch barrels!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I did a straight neck up of wssm brass to 35 and it looked pretty cool. 35 rem bullets are short and will feed with the wssm oal limitations.

Oh I know it can be done and with some bullets with the low end 35's it would be fine, I think 200s and such or less. But the field is very limited with bullet choice for the WSSM version. I checked pretty careful on the 358s for the 2.25 inch B&M case, and that is very limited too, for magazine length, I felt it was too limited to do on a B&M case. Can do ok with a WSM case up to 35. But even a WSM on 338 is limited too, I have two 338 WSMs, like them, but they are at their best with 225s.

WSSM action, going below 458 is too limited, at least for me.

M

Well don't forget the 410 WSSM and B&M Plenty of short bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Well don't forget the 410 WSSM and B&M Plenty of short bullets.

Boomy

Gee, let me get the 475s done first!!!!!!!
WHEW!!!!

M

Go Michael!
The one man online big bore wildcat e-magazine!
This thread is more informative and fun than years of subscriptions to magazines.

quote:

Anyway, I hate like hell to have a barrel longer than my "GUN" that I was born with, so I like 18 inch barrels!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Well don't forget the 410 WSSM and B&M Plenty of short bullets.

410 B&M?????

Crap, just when I thought I was done with big bores having the 458 B&M in hand!

Trouble is I have MANY .411 bullets around here to use up. They are plenty short enough to fit the WSM action perfectly.

Let's see what else I can sell off to fund another project and keep my promise of no net increase in the gun vault!

Chopper

OH NO, NOT YOU TOO!!!!!!! Between you and Boomy I get no rest!!!!!!!


OK, you and boomy remind me after we get a 475 B&M in hand! I can look at a 410 B&M for ya!


Chopper I have been meaning to send a note to you this week and see if you are shooting yet or not????

Dwright

Was wondering if anyone read my little "funny" HEH! I am jealous of 20 inch barrels, like everything to match up right!


Thanks Boomy, and yes it is better than any gun rag mags I get! And I get them all, most take about 2 minutes for me to go thru, useless same old same crap. For example I got a Guns & Ammo the other day, at this moment I am looking at it:

54-Winchesters 410 shotshell defense load---Nahhh, I don't care!

58-Something about a 1918 Mauser---No thanks, I don't care.

66--Boone and Crockett cartridges for the most deer--I damn sure don't care!

72--Another AR article on scopes for ARs--No, I don't care.

22--250 Savage--NO thanks!

28--case for a handgun for travel-- Oh, getting sleepy, boring, tired now!

34--Boddington with a dead deer and a 280 something or other--slow and boring, no thanks

45---380 handguns, whoopy!---

Ok, that magazine is ready for the test medium over on TBP!!! End of story!

M

Michael...
Great use for the mags
Maybe we can send you magazine donations
400 B&M should get 450/400 performance even in 18" barrels!!!!!! That should be reason enough.
A nice light, compact low recoil Teddy Roosevelt "Big stick" Lion medicine dispencer.
300 grain piggie poppers plenty fast.
North Fork 300 grain softs will hold up to higher velocities so a longer barrel could give you some reach.

Would be sweet if you could get it to 6.5 lbs without scope.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael...
Great use for the mags
Maybe we can send you magazine donations
400 B&M should get 450/400 performance even in 18" barrels!!!!!! That should be reason enough.
A nice light, compact low recoil Teddy Roosevelt "Big stick" Lion medicine dispencer.
300 grain piggie poppers plenty fast.
North Fork 300 grain softs will hold up to higher velocities so a longer barrel could give you some reach.

Would be sweet if you could get it to 6.5 lbs without scope.

Boomy

I don't know, sounds like a project to me, might be fun! Easy to get 6.5 lbs with the Ultimate stock, I have plenty of those too! CDNN has Black for $50 and Camo for $70. I bought 7-8 of them a few months ago. Nice, light!

Sometime I will take a look at available bullets and we can make a decision on it then. That's the key sometimes, available bullets. I think we have kicked this around some in the past. So we can look at it, but I want the 475s done first and out of the way, maybe during the time I am doing load data on the 475s we can kick off and get a reamer made for this one and move on it! By then I will need a new project to play with!

Remind me, after the 475s.

M

Can't help but get jazzed about awesome new carts being born here.

The 470 B&M will be cool as all get out but I have a 470 AR With all the Turnbull bullets it will even sweeter.

The 400 B&M weighing 6.5 lbs for 400 @ 2150 is almost 60 lbs of recoil and would be a little sharp jab but to carry for hours without fatigue is a huge plus. Open sights or red dot with no scope to fear biting your forehead getting used to it would not take long. At 8 lbs with a wood stock it would be a cake walk with less than 50 ft lbs of recoil and slower recoil velocity.

Boomy

Well big difference in the 470 AR and the 470 B&M. Back to the same as 458 Lott/458 Winchester, with the ARs being the Lotts and the B&Ms being the Winchester. But heres the rub, in a normal world the 458 Lott and the 458 Winchester are the same size rifle with 24 inch barrels standard. IN this case the ARs operate well with 20-24 inch barrels and standard actions, and the B&Ms operate on short actions and 18-20 inch barrels. Now either way, two grand series of cartridges and far superior to the analogy of 458 Lott and 458 Winchesters.

Now you don't need to have any concerns about recoil and the scope biting you. Yes, the scope can bite, but I use 1.5X5 or 1x4 Leupolds and they have lot's of eye relief and field of view, so no biting unless you set the scope too far back and crawl it! I regular shoot the 458 B&Ms with 450 gr bullets at 2200 + in the 6.5 lb version, and 500s at 2150. In the 416 B&Ms 400s at 2300 and 350s at 2450 or better in the 6.5 lb guns with no issues. Now what does happen with both of these is that the bolt knob knocks the skin off my trigger finger during recoil. Now that does get to be aggravating, so I just wrap some duct tape around my finger and go about my business! The wood stocks do not do that at all. Just the Ultimates.

So a 400 at 2150 is a pussy cat and easy to shoot even in a 6.5 lb gun.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Anyway, I hate like hell to have a barrel longer than my "GUN" that I was born with, so I like 18 inch barrels!
Michael

I understand you 100%... Thats why I like 24 inch barrels but dislike 26 inchers

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Anyway, I hate like hell to have a barrel longer than my "GUN" that I was born with, so I like 18 inch barrels!
Michael

I understand you 100%... Thats why I like 24 inch barrels but dislike 26 inchers

Don't know about the rest of you boys, me and buffalo, we real men, with BIG GUNS!!!!!!!



OK off to the Show!
Michael

Heh Michael, got the .416 yesterday. . . . goin shootin Tuesday. Will get back to you about it. . . . . .

Dennis,

I'll be there next weekend so don't shoot everything up!!! Especially the 330gr HPs!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Dennis,

I'll be there next weekend so don't shoot everything up!!! Especially the 330gr HPs!

What. . . . ? Who, me. . . . ?

No worries. I have everything ready to go. I'll be ready to head to the hills then next Wednesday &, or Thursday.
Dennis

Dwright and Capo

You guys let us know how you like the guns.

Got back from the Show today. Man that place was crawling like fire ants on a dirt mound with people! Whew, good crowd, lot's of support from Charlotte, NRA banners on every light post welcoming the NRA to Charlotte NC. No protesters anywhere that I saw. Every business there, putting out the Welcome NRA signs, it was great. Good stuff everywhere, good people. I think it was pretty short on BIG BORE rifles however! Oh there were a few here and there, Winchester had the new M70 there in 458 WInchester, but it was same old same, still nice and LONG and heavy! I looked all over the Ruger area and could not even see a 416 or other big bore on display?? Maybe I missed it somewhere?

Sam mentioned after leaving here the other day about a Sabatti, I had never even heard of one, but I will admit I did SNEAK over to the Double Rifle forum (shhhhhesh-don't tell) and looked around a bit and looked at Cabelas website to learn a little more. Then at the Show I saw a big sign with Sabatti on it. Soooooo I kinda went over and just stood around looking stupid and while the guys were not watching I sneaked a look at a 45/70 and a 416 Rigby they had there. It was kinda tough, because when the guy turned around I quickly put the gun down and went back to my stupid look, then he turned again I would grab it quickly and look it over!

What I know about doubles fits on the end of a lead pencil, the sharp end, but these looked pretty good to me, and especially when taking into account "For the Money" factor. I found but one truly terrible fault with them, I could not see anywhere on them where "Winchester" was stamped, so I guess that leaves me out. They didn't have a 500 Nitro there.

Still lot's of other good things there. I did meet with my Accurate Innovations guys, Wes and Patrick, which I was very happy to pal around with for awhile. But even more so since they brought me a brand new hi end Maple stock that is absolutely gorgeous! I will be sending a Win M70 stainless to Brian this week and pushing him hard for a NEW 50 B&M in which to fit this stock to!!!!!!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Sam mentioned after leaving here the other day about a Sabatti, I had never even heard of one, but I will admit I did SNEAK over to the Double Rifle forum (shhhhhesh-don't tell) and looked around a bit and looked at Cabelas website to learn a little more.
Michael

Michael

Get back where you belong

It's not going to do your credibility any good straying into the DR forum !!!!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

I found but one truly terrible fault with them, I could not see anywhere on them where "Winchester" was stamped, so I guess that leaves me out.

Michael

That can be fixed very quickly, just like Remington did with the Baikal's !!!! LOL

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Sam mentioned after leaving here the other day about a Sabatti, I had never even heard of one, but I will admit I did SNEAK over to the Double Rifle forum (shhhhhesh-don't tell) and looked around a bit and looked at Cabelas website to learn a little more.
Michael

Michael

Get back where you belong

It's not going to do your credibility any good straying into the DR forum !!!!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

I found but one truly terrible fault with them, I could not see anywhere on them where "Winchester" was stamped, so I guess that leaves me out.

Michael

That can be fixed very quickly, just like Remington did with the Baikal's !!!! LOL

.

500N


Damn! Busted! Don't worry though, I never posted anything and there is no way I can be traced to spying on the Double Rifle Forum (I don't think anyway)

Yeah I could get me a scratching tool and scratch Winchester on one!

Damn Brian at SSK is bad about sending me one of my B&M rifles and putting masking tape over the "Winchester" and writing the ugly "R" word over the masking tape (Remington). I turn red at that!

LOL

Michael

Michael


Brian has obviously worked out how to get your goat up !!!! LOL

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Michael


Brian has obviously worked out how to get your goat up !!!! LOL

Oh yes you are correct, every once and awhile I get a rifle returned with the big "R" covering up the Winchester! I know he is giggling over that as the rifle gets packed!



I mentioned, I think I did, a new maple stock I had coming for a new rifle. I met the Accurate Innovations guys at the NRA Show Friday and low and behold Patrick brought my stock along with him. I am pretty happy with it, and decided it had to be on a new 50 B&M 18 inch stainless gun, nothing else would do! So I have a rifle packed up, ready to ship to Brian to build the new 50 B&M. In the meantime I just put it on a stainless 458 B&M I have with a 20 inch barrel (too long) just to see what it was going to look like, or close anyway!





I like it!!!!!!!!

M

You definately have a new Blondie in the making! Nice stock.

Heh Jim, shot Michael's .416 B&M this morning. Very sweeeeeeeeeet!

Why doesn't Winchester make these things. . . . . . . . . ?

Recoil was extremely mild; lot's of ammo left for when you get here. Felt about the same as my .375 Ruger, as I switched back and forth a couple of times.

The .416 shoots quite a bit flatter then what I was expecting as well. Would happily replace the little .375 with it anytime.

Only down side right now, is starting Jury duty in the morning and hope I don't get caught up in that for the next few weeks! We'll see. . . . . . . . . How long will you be in Creswell for. . . . ?

Should also add, that after shooting these short barreled guns, I am having a difficult time going back to even my 20" .375.
Michael is right about getting hooked on the short tubes.
My preference is leaning toward the 16" as nice sweet little brush gun. The 18" is acceptably handy with it's added reach in the .416. While wearing the Leupold 1-4, it is fully as easy to connect on target out at 300 yards, as it is with my .375. Remove the scope, and now you again have a fast handling carbine with some really good close range power.

It is because of the cartridges Michael has cooked up that these short guns work so well. I really am surprised that a major gun maker has not got on the stick and produced such rifles. But I guess as with anything new, it takes awhile to catch on.
Kinda like the .375 Ruger, but these are taking the concept to the extreme.
Did I mention that I like extremes?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael...

400 B&M should get 450/400 performance even in 18" barrels!!!!!! That should be reason enough.
A nice light, compact low recoil Teddy Roosevelt "Big stick" Lion medicine dispencer.
300 grain piggie poppers plenty fast.
North Fork 300 grain softs will hold up to higher velocities so a longer barrel could give you some reach.

I agree.

Michael - I have a bunch of A Frames, and other jacketed & lead .411 bullets I'd donate to the 400/410 B&M development, just let me know when to send them!

I went with a 20" on my 458 B&M, but a 18 would be perfect if you can get 450/400 performance with 400 gr bullets.

Gotta find another lefty WSM rifle for conversion now. Hopefully by the time you can get to this I can find a used one this time.

You know what they say about patience - all it ever gets you is a longer wait!

Dwright

Better leave enough ammo for Jim too, heh! Gees, I have so much going on right now I can't keep up or remember even what I sent to you, what loads. I think I might have got cheap and send some 350 Speers or something, along with some of the 330 Brass HPs, but I forgot already!

See the email about the Jury Duty, can't repeat that in public, but it's a sure way to get out of jury duty in a hurry, or it is here in SC.



Chopper and Boomy

OK OK, I have to get busy and send some drawings up to Brian then he will get with Dave and make us some reamers. I still have to do that with the 475 B&M and the 475 B&M Super Short. While we are at it I will go ahead and get us a reamer for the 410 B&M. Bullets are .410 or .411 right? So we can call it the 410 B&M, this is the 2.25 inch version.

Remind me, a 450/400 is .410 and shoots a 400 gr bullet at 2150 fps right? If that is the case then the 410 B&M should do that easy and at less than 55000-50000 psi, way under max pressure easy. Way under. The 416 is capable of 2200 to 2300 fps with a 400 in 18 inches of barrel depending on the bullet. I think it's the Woodleigh I can get to 2300 fps in that little 18 inch gun Dennis has right now, or the Hornady one or the other, with WW 748 and 60000 psi. So a .410 400 at 2150 should be easy easy with plenty of room to spare.

Of course it's a process, a week or two for me, 2-3 months with Dave on a reamer, couple of months on a real gun, then 3 months, maybe for dies from hornady. So maybe by this winter we can have a working gun and doing load data? I reckon that's not too hateful starting from zero.

I don't know much about .410 bullets? Mike has been testing some on TBP, so that is good and I have been paying attention to that. But I have not looked at what was available.

Chopper, do me a favor when you get a chance. Take some of the .410 bullets you have and measure from the cannelure to the tip of the nose, then overall bullet length, I want to check overall for the magazines. Might go 2.240 like I do with 458-416-9.3 and I think 375 so things fit in the magazine nicely. I like things to not only work proper, but look right too! I like short necks too! And I like loaded ammo that looks right, not half done! I think both 475 and 410 will come in at 2.240 case length to be right.

How's that? Better not let me forget, I may forget all this by morning?
HEH

Michael