quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
MHS...how does one have a CRPF (controlled round push feed)??

From memory, Sako had a hybrid style ... bolt face was cut away underneath so cartridge slipped up under an extractor but it wasn't a true CRF as such. Winchester I think did something similar at one stage.
Cheers...
Con

What Con said

Its a hybrid action, Winchester did it on nearly all the WSSM's and a few other rifles. My 25wssm Coyote has this mechanism, but I've yet to shoot it. Basically, CRF without the claw extractor, makes it easier to do single loads and apparently its easier to eject it softly if you're saving the brass instead of flinging it several feet away.

quote:

Originally posted by Con:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
MHS...how does one have a CRPF (controlled round push feed)??

From memory, Sako had a hybrid style ... bolt face was cut away underneath so cartridge slipped up under an extractor but it wasn't a true CRF as such. Winchester I think did something similar at one stage.
Cheers...
Con

Ah...so its the typical PF style bolt with the lower cutaway face...just like the current Sako Model 85 and the McMillan G30 CFR.

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
What Con said

Its a hybrid action, Winchester did it on nearly all the WSSM's and a few other rifles. My 25wssm Coyote has this mechanism, but I've yet to shoot it. Basically, CRF without the claw extractor, makes it easier to do single loads and apparently its easier to eject it softly if you're saving the brass instead of flinging it several feet away.

Ok, so the M70 SS is a CRPF action. That's same action that Michael458 uses for his 50 B&M SS cartridges. So are you going to go ahead with a 458 B&M SS?

SOME of the WSSM's were the normal W70 Classic true CRF w/claw extractor, thats what he uses. IIRC, the Ultimate Shadow, was the Classic action, this is what Michael uses. I missed my chance on getting one about a year about for a damn good deal or I would've already had the 50 SS. If you check back on the posts about the 50 SS, it head spaces with the extractor, so this action would be missing that. This is why I'm interested in the 458 B&M SS as it would have a shoulder to head space on.

MileHi and Capoward

Milehigh has it correct, The Ultimate Shadows, and the Featherweights in the WSSMs are all Classic Control Feed. The Coyote, "Shadows" and maybe something else is the CR push feed guns. Open bottom bolts, small extractor. I have only worked with and used the Classics. However I have looked at the CRPF and one fellow built one on a 50 Super Short. This guy has never even shot his however--???? When I found out he had sent this to Brian to do I talked with Brian about it before it was done. We both decided it would work fine and not be a big issue, even with the 50 SS. From what I recall the bolt still picks up the round from the magazine, slides up under the small extractor, and has control of it from then on, pretty much the same as the classic, just the extractor is small is all. I would think pretty much the same principal is at work with this as with the classic. But can't say for sure if any issues would come up as I have yet to work with one. For sure in a 458 Super Short I can't see any issues, but same principal as the control feed is at work here.

As for the 458 B&M Super Short we are still waiting on the reamers from Dave. Along with this reamer is the new 500 MDM reamer, 375 B&M reamer, 458 B&M SA reamer. As soon as we get a reamer rifles are waiting, then fired cases for Hornady to make dies, probably still 4-5 months out (mostly Hornady dies). I might have RCBS do dies too, about 4 weeks on those. In fact, yes, I will probably send to RCBS at the same time as Hornady, but will have RCBS dies in 4-5 weeks. Can get going on data a lot sooner that way.

Michael

mike,tis is a humble question from an experienced reloader. i am interested in your statement that in the 500 BM, as in the 45 ACP, the carteidge does not headspace on the rim; instead, it is held by the exractor.
I agree that this is most likely true. I have fired 9.3x57 in my 9.3x2 by miatake, with no consequences. nevertheless, it brings to mind the intermnable agonizing re whether the shoulder on a 500 Mbogo is sufficient to provide "headspace"? If a CRF is used, headspace becomes irrelevant, by this argument.
Anyone, please amplify. I may be just totaly wrong.

Emron

The 50 B&M and 50 B&M Super Short, and the prototype 50 B&M SA are very much like the 45 acp. Basically "rimless" cases, that in theory would headspace off the mouth of the cartridge----UNLESS USED IN A CONTROL FEED FIREARM! Now again, basically a 1911 45 acp handgun (I love them) is a control feed firearm, the slide comes back, as it goes forward it picks up a round in the magazine, cartridge slides up under the "Extractor", moves forward into the chamber. Now the rim is up under the extractor, and the extractor has control of the cartridge, the cartridge cannot go any further forward into the chamber, than the "Extractor" will allow it to go.

Now this is the same with a control feed rifle, a Winchester M70. Extractor holds the cartridge in place within the chamber, cartridge cannot go any further into the chamber than the extractor will allow it to go.

I am not a gunsmith, but I am a shooter, have shot probably well in access of over a 100'000 45 acps over a 30 yr period, have shot many 1000s of 50 B&M--50 B&M Super Shorts since 2005. What I am saying is a simple easy concept to understand, no mystery, no great thought, just simple logic.

In a control feed rifle, regardless of where the cartridge is supposed to headspace, belt, shoulder, rim, rimless, mouth does not matter, the extractor still controls how far that cartridge is allowed to go into the chamber, therefore in my very humble opinion actually controls the headspace of that cartridge.

In a push feed bolt gun, or single shot rifle, or semi auto rifle, then headspace might become an issue. For instance I have a 50 B&M chambered in an 1885 Winchester single shot, it for sure headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge, nothing else to stop it and hold it in place.

It is not an argument just a simple easy to grasp fact. Your conclusion that a CRF rifle being used headspace is irrelevant, true in it's most simple explanation as above, but I see the extractor as being primary, and normal headspace, whether belt, mouth, shoulder as backup in a CRF rifle. In push feed, or single shot, then cartridge headspace is primary.

I know crap about a 500 Mbogo, but rest assured in a CRF rifle it's a moot point!
This is RIPs cartridge, correct? CRF, and RIP experience, I don't think anyone anywhere needs to "agonize" or have concerns about whether the shoulder is sufficient to headspace. I think this is something gunwriters can agonize over and worry about, gives them something to write about and make them think they are important, in the meantime RIP, Jeffe, myself, many others will continue to shoot many 1000s of big bore rounds while they sit behind their laptops and "agonize"!

No Emron, you have the concept, and you are totally "correct".

Michael

quote:

it brings to mind the intermnable agonizing re whether the shoulder on a 500 Mbogo is sufficient to provide "headspace"?

The 10.75x68 has about 14 thou shoulders and works.

Maybe you would like a 499 Mbogo or 499 Rigby shooting .500" bullets and having 20 thou shoulders

The 20 thou shoulders of the 470 AR works great.

@michael458,

your B&M Cartridges have made it to the german gun forum#1

http://forum.waffen-online.de/...php?showtopic=392757

Rifles will follow soon....:-))

Best
2RECON

Congrats Michael!

Tried to access the forum...bummer, don't read or write German so didn't think it'd do any good to sign up for an account..

Update: Ok, trying to up BabelFish to translate my way through the registration process...what a pita!!!...have confirmed the registration email...guess I'm now awaiting another step in the process. Oh well, one of these days...maybe

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
nevertheless, it brings to mind the intermnable agonizing re whether the shoulder on a 500 Mbogo is sufficient to provide "headspace"? If a CRF is used, headspace becomes irrelevant, by this argument.
Anyone, please amplify. I may be just totaly wrong.

the 500 mbogo and 500AR have more than enough shoulder to provide positive headspacing ... as well as the 470mbogo and the 470 AccRel, though these are a different comparision.

sorry if it took us a tad off track, MM

2Recon

Excellent! I can't wait to see some rifles now! Notice I said "see", Me no German either! However, my wife can read German so I think I can get her on this and see what the deal is!

Thanks.

Keep trying Jim!

Jeffe

Not off track at all. Thanks for the info, as I was already pretty sure of that fact.

Jeffe, using the Rugers as I think you have, that extractor does the same as the Winchesters, correct? So double the headspace!

Michael

I decided to add this here on the B&M Series. This is the new DPMS 50 B&M SA!




458 B&M SA in the works!

Also please note that this is NOT a 50 B&M put in a Semi. This is a 2 inch case and fits the DPMS mag perfectly.

Michael

Well Michael; your the first person to agree with my reasoning that the .45 acp headspaces on the extractor. I'm a 1911 fan as well. My old pre-series 2 Kimber has about 50,000 rnds thru it, and will feed empty brass!

Hmm, come to think of it, it may be time to go ahead and give LOADED ammo a try. . . . . .

quote:

I'm a 1911 fan as well. My old pre-series 2 Kimber has about 50,000 rnds thru it, and will feed empty brass!

Hmm, come to think of it, it may be time to go ahead and give LOADED ammo a try. . . . . .

Michael... that 50 B&M 2" looks like a perfect engine block cracker for police and the armed forces.

Serious mid range thumper!

Boom

Yeah, it's a good job! Working bugs out of it. I knew from the beginning this one was going to be bullet specific and a little particular. Having one issue with it with some various bullets, last round in the mag is nose diving into the feed ramp. So getting the right bullet in it and solving that issue. As with all new things, gotta sort the bugs out and learn what the bugs are!

Michael

OK I suppose it's official, the DPMS 50 B&M SA has entered service now. Bugs seem to be worked out pretty easy in fact. Brian at SSK made some minor adjustment to the magazine and function and feed is 100% now! Lot's of fun to shoot! Some folks think this would make a jam up "hog gun" when things got hot and furious! Maybe so. Damn thing weighs in at 10.5 lbs with the scope! For my part I will play with it on the range, too heavy to be toting!


The .500 caliber family now!

Back to basics:
How much does the WSM-sized action of an M70 weigh?

Some crash test dummies made it to Kentucky:

RIP

Yes, you have been corrupted proper now!

Just the WSM action alone? I don't know for sure, I can tell you this for fact, a barreled action in the WSM 24 inch barrel, no stock at all weighs 5.25 lbs. A RECEIVER and Bolt weith 1.75 lbs. This is no bottom metal, no mag box. I have those things, can get weigh, but entire action with bottom metal and mag box I don't have right off hand.

Every home should have a B&M, some homes have several, and glad to add KY to the list!

Yes, back to basics! I am not a great fan of the 50 B&MSA rifle, but I was not going to allow anyone else to beat me to it proper! As far as ever doing anything with it, not, just something to play with! Basics are a fine Winchester Bolt guns, short, handy, plenty of power! But since that thing is part of the family, every family has a black sheep, eh? That is the "Black Sheep" of the B&M family! Oh yes, lot's of pun intended!

Michael

You guys on this forum are KILLING me, to many choices.
And they'r all good.

The 9.3 B&M is my favorite at the moment. My little CZ full stock would go from mild to wild with that one.
Although it would be a little darling in 50 B&M.

Fabulous work, you are just the best

Nope I'm wrong.
The 9.3 is silly, not enough difference to justify the mod.
But that still leaves the 416 458 and the 50 to consider.
I think I like the 458 the best just because the reloading components are cheaper.
Yes I squeak when I walk

cheers,
John

Phats!

Glad you like them. Very hard to pick a favorite, just about every time I do so, I change my mind. I suppose I am more partial to the 50 and the 458. Most versatile is the 458 in my mind, because of bullets available. The 9.3 I really like and will take the place of any of the mediums for me, such as 338 and 358. It is so handy when compared to the other mediums. 416, well it's a 416 and as good as any of them I suppose. 416 is very versatile also in the field. I don't rate 416 very high on the list for the heavies, but great for all around. Of course my define of all around, or universal is really not good for anything?? LOL. But if a chap needs a 416 these are hard to beat. The little 50 Super Short is a class of it's own, not to be included with the others. Of course the 500 MDM is the big daddy of the family, but still in a small package when considering. A favorite? I have them all, so I really don't have to choose only one! That's to my advantage, would hate to have to choose only one.

Michael

Hello,
You know, You have that AR sitting there and it brings up a thought.
In the AR-15 the 458 SOCOM is a really good cartridge. Now stretch it out for the AR-10 and I wonder how good it could be. Superior to the 450 Marlin for sure, but just how good.

Just a thought,
John

Hey all y'all,
I am late to this party, still catching up.
I do have a new rifle made in SC.
Winchester M70 Extreme Weather SS 300 WSM.
It weighs 6#14oz with a 24" lightly fluted barrel.
Has a B&C stock that is the runt-of-the-litter fraternal twin of the
CZ Kevlar stock.
Same paint job.
Same aluminum endoskeleton.
Just has a shorter forearm and smaller belly that has only a slight dropbox appearance to it.
This should stand up well to .458 B&M.
The barrel is on the way from Pac-Nor.
It is a No. 4 sporter contour, about one standard contour
slimmer than Michael uses?
Cut to 20", it will be .710" at the muzzle.
Brian at SSK has agreed to work on these parts,
even though the twist is 1:10" for this .458 B&M.

boomer,
The 500 Mbogo shoulder is 20-thou and 35 degrees per side.
The .458 B&M shoulder is 20-thou and 20 degrees per side,
which I like even better.

Michael,
Your claw extractor headspacing explains how the
10.75x68mm Mauser worked, IF factory ammo did not
maintain 13.5-thou per side shoulder, the smallest factory shoulder I know of.
B&M and MDM wildcats have certainly expanded the horizons of
shooters and hunters, even taught Rip some stuff.
Lettet Rip

RIP

No worry, it seems you are catching up fast! Capo filled me in on the stock, man, I think that would be pretty good. Was looking sorta to see if I could get just a stock, but have not had time to put much effort into it yet. I think the stock would be first class for the purpose intended!

""B&M and MDM wildcats have certainly expanded the horizons of
shooters and hunters, even taught Rip some stuff.""

Coming from you I am truly humbled! From someone with your experience and knowledge that means a lot to me!! I promise, I was just lucky! But a heap of thanks anyway!

They are a dream in the field!!!!
Thanks so much, greatly appreciated!
Michael

Phats

458 B&M SA is in the works! Same exact rifle you see above, only in 458 caliber. Will be excellent for 400 gr bullets and down. 2 inch case, fits magazine perfect. I estimate near duplication or exceeding 450 Marlin, I think it will exceed to be honest.

The 50 B&M SA is capable of far more than listed. I have shot 500s at 1900 fps, 400s well over 2100 fps. I have one bolt gun chambered in that, actually the first prototype 50!

The 458 version should be a hammer for a SA. Process is just now getting in the works, rifle ready soon as dies are ready, a few months out yet.

Michael

Hey Micheal,

How much magazine capacity did you loose with the 50SA?
Just looking at the pic you have of the mags and it doesn't look like you lost any.
I see there may be a new pig gun in my future !!
Down here they are vermin, and mighty damn tasty vermin indeed.

John

John
No loss of mag capacity. The mag holds 4. This little cartridge is a pig thumper. I have a friend that lives close by, he used a 50 B&M and a Super Short and hammers pigs all the time.

Brian and JD think this is a good pig thumper.

Michael

I wanted to alert all those with B&M rifles. JohnOMS sent the website the other day for CDNN Sports. While over there looking I see a section on stocks, then Winchester Stocks! They have as far as I can tell every Winchester Factory stock available, and the prices are incredibly good! You can pick up an extra stock at a very reasonable price.

Well I get on the kicks sometimes. Always a 1911 fan, just change the grips and you have a new gun, so I have lot's of nice grips for 1911s. I have been on a stock kick for a bit with the B&M rifles, all Winchester M70 WSM actions for the 9.3-416-458-and 50 B&M. My favorite is of course wood, and the wood stocks made by Accurate Innovations. But for the wet weather work I really like that little Ultimate stock of Winchesters. Extra Ultimate stocks have been very difficult to come by, until now. CDNN has the black Ultimates for $49.95 and the Hillbilly Camo ones for $69.95. Not only that, these appear to be improved with instead of a slick surface, more of a rubberized type feel to them. Then on top of all of it, with the contour barrels I have, it's a no fitting situation for me. Just install and go shoot! I bought 3 black and 4 camo to put back and forth on my rifles depending on my mood I guess!

Another little tidbit of info on CDNN, they have a little plastic spacer that allows one to put a 2 piece bottom metal gun on a 1 piece stock! It fits perfect and works perfect, I have several 2 piece guns and lot's of 1 piece stocks! Best of all, besides the fact that it works perfectly, it's only $10.00! Naturally I don't want to be low on stock, I have 11 of them just in case! Very easy to change out, going to Alaska, put the Ultimate stock on, and you are set!

They also have all the factory wood stocks too, very good prices, for all the actions.

Just a heads up in case one is looking.

Michael

.458 B&M Loads that work through the short 300 WSM action,
and Peacekeeper-Whale-Whisperer loads for the long 300 RUM action:









Longer throat and box makes the .458 B&M have a greater effective case capacity than the .458 Lott.
It can keep the peace at 1000 yards with VLD bullets, go whaling, or just whisper and wail.

The .458/450-grain North Fork softs and FP solids can be seated with a crimp and work through the
slightly over 3" box of the M70 Extreme Weather SS 300 WSM short action from SC,
or they can be seated long and used in 3.6" box of the M70 Classic Stainless 300 RUM from CT,
if throated long.

Of the 10 Quality Cartridge .458 B&M Headstamped cases,
3 of them were outliers, averaging
271.3 grains of brass weight
92.1 grains of gross water capacity and
2.233" length.

The other 7 QC cases averaged
252.4 grains of brass weight
95.0 grains of gross water capacity and
2.239" length.

The only 3 cases formed from 300 RUM averaged
252.2 grains of brass weight
94.4 grains of gross water capacity and
2.235" length.
This is almost identical to the QC "normal" brass,
any difference could be explained by length difference,
or insignificant with such a small sample.

I do not know what to make of the 3 pieces of QC brass that averaged about 19 grains heavier than the other 7 pieces,
unless the spent primers in those had lead in their cups.
Easy to sort out those by weighing.
Those 3 cases will become feed-work dummies loaded short and long. 3.000" and 3.600" COLs.

.458 WinMag brass by RP from my lot of brass was measured by the same technique as the .458 B&M brass (Your mileage may vary.):

10 pieces averaged
236.3 grains in brass weight (fireformed with spent primer in place as above)
94.8 grains of gross water capacity and
2.489" length.


a .458-caliber bullet displaces 41.6 grains of water per inch of full-diameter shank.

If the .458 WinMag RP brass is allowed to grow to max length of 2.500", case capacity becomes:
95.3 grains H2O

If the .458 B&M QC or RP brass is allowed to grow to max length specified at Ammoguide, by Michael, 2.295", case capacity becomes:
97.3 grains of H2O

The .458 B&M is 2 grains bigger on this sampling, and also more efficient to boot, eh?
***********************************************************************





I think I might have to build two of these .458 B&Ms
One a shortie with 20" barrel and 3" box, with twist of 1:12" or faster.

The other will have a 23" barrel and a 3.6" box for Peacekeeping, Whaling, and Whispering purposes, with a 1:10" twist.
Letter Rip

RIP

You have been busy! The SC gun looks pretty good! How is the fit/function?

As for the 3 QC cases???? Don't know?

I will see if I can't get you some of the VLD samples to you this week to look at. I will share what was sent to me with you.

Yes, I think you must do two, and for sure keep ONE of them with the shorter barrel to keep the purpose in which these were designed! Short, handy, light and powerful! The other will most certainly take the 458 B&M beyond the bounds of discovery! And will be quite interesting too, especially with those VLDs we have. And of course the special purpose sub sonics.

I am waiting now for the stocks to come in from Accurate Innovations. I sent 3 RUM guns up to Brian for 500 MDMs, one stainless I am keeping for myself, all three will be fitted with English Walnut. Then one English for a WSM and a Maple for WSM. Figure to build one more 50 B&M and a 9.3 B&M for those two stocks. I had AI build a plain jane Turkish about a year ago. Nice ebony tips, stock turned out nice, lighter color. Been looking at it for awhile. Had a 18 inch 458 B&M blue, nice gun, super grade stock, but rather plain looking. I sent rifle and stock back to AI to fit the turkish to it proper. It looks much better to me than the super grade stock that was on it. I sent some ammo up to these guys for them to shoot and play with the gun a couple of weeks after they fitted it proper. Now I can't wait to get it back!

Been playing too with my new Ultimate stocks. Those little stocks are incredible the way they handle! Very small and light!

RIP, I think you are taking the 458 B&M where no man has gone before!

Michael

Michael,
Beam me up Scottie!
You think I have been busy?
No comparison to your hyperspace jump with the B&M star-trekking!

"The SC gun looks pretty good! How is the fit/function?"

It is really well fitted and smooth in action.
However it scratches the dummies coming out of the box and needs a little polishing of the feed surfaces, nothing else I can tell so far.

Yep, a short&light one and a long&heavy one.
The heavier stock for the M70 RUM action will be from Rapid City, SD too, H-S Precision. That has an aluminum bedding block also.

Just cruising for now on impulse power, waiting for a barrel to arrive, then warp drive will be activated.

BTW, with the M70 300 RUM action, the long dummies of the .458 B&M Whaler feed slicker than er, uh, whale crap.

Live long and proper.
(Where is the Vulcan salute smiley when you need it?)

Letter Rip

RIP

I am not sure, but I think I have a brand new in the "bag" HS Precision stock for a long action Winchester. For some reason I never did cotton up to it. I will check that tomorrow. All the RUMs are 2 piece bottom metal. The Super Grades are one piece.

AI moved to NC a few months ago. The original guys sold to a group in NC. NC bunch are pretty sharp, I like them.

Did I send you samples of the other cartridges, 416-9.3-50s and so forth? Can't remember.

Tell Brian about the scratching, but Winchester seems to be bad for that, mine do too, or some of them do.

Oh the 300 RUMs are fine pieces of work for sure!!!!!! I have built several guns out of them, 358 Ultra, 338 Ultra, 9.3 Ultra, and will be 5--500 MDMs when the other 3 are finished.

Michael

Ah so, AI in NC now.
Me likey synthetic with Al bedding block.

Yep, got your other dummies.
Impulse thruster course is set on .458 B&M.

Ever try machining off the tip of a long-nose bullet, to fit the short box?

RIP
Yes, AI made a big move to NC. I think it is going to work out for them there, hope it does, they have a good product. A must have for the 500 MDMs. Aluminum chassis takes all the recoil and saves the woood!

No, never took the tip off a bullet to get it to fit. Modified some with the 50 B&Ms to get them to feed in some rifles, in particular the 500 Hornady, rounded the edges off the exposed lead.

Michael

It does little to bullet accuracy to mangle the tip, as long as you don't mangle the base of the bullet or squash the sides out of round.

TSXs and some other bullets you use are too long to seat with a crimp and still fit in the 3.0" box.

One might even improve the uniformity of the Barnes bullets by filing the tips down to uniform length.
Increase the meplat size,or cut any Hornady plastic tips right off!

Then one might even chamfer the hollowpoint opening to uniform overall weight of the bullet.
Stone and polish any FN meplats with a drill press, bullet in chuck.

Voila! Everything fits in a 3.0" box now!

The VLD bullets can be loaded single-shot as long as the throat fits.
Your current short throat is not a problem for "Whispering" loads, with bullet seated deep and maybe still needing a filler in the case.

Might need the long box and long throat for "Peacekeeping" and "Whaling" loads with heavy bullets seated long, for heavy powder charges.

1:10" twist for slow Whispers and fast Whales.

Hey, 1:10" twist has worked great for me with 404 Jeffery, 470 Capstick, 500 A2 and 500 Mbogo.
Not a broblem with light bullets 320 and 340 grains in the 404 (.423-caliber).
Not a problem with the light bullets 450 grains in .510-caliber.

It will be good in .458 with 350 to 777-grainers.

RIP

Oh I know there is no issue at all with mangling the tips up for accuracy--in the air the base does the driving. Terminal on expanding makes no difference either.

The only TSX I use in the 458 B&M is the 350 and it seats in perfect with the case trimmed to 2.240. Heavier, then yes, would have to make some adjustments, but heavy bullets I use the 450 Swift, 500 gr RN Hornady or Woodleigh Softs. Used a 500 Woodleigh soft on a buffalo in Australia, did great! Of course have used that in 458 Lott on buffalo too.

Now I will tell you something else before you get too happy with crimping. I have never had to crimp the cartridge at all. Neck tension is enough, never had a bullet jump, move, or ever be an issue. Been 1000s of them shot with no crimp. No crimp on the 50s, 500s, 416s or the 9.3s. Neck tension seems to hold everything. Try it.

Don't know about the 458, but JD sent some of those long VLD 416 Barrett bullets for me to take to Zim in 2007. Load right up, chamber easy and slick. Of course WAY too long for magazine. No issues chambering. Sending you some 458 VLD samples out Tuesday via Fed Ex. In the meantime this morning I will load one up and see how they chamber.

Michael