Rob,
Only way to one-up your aluminum loading block will be a titanium one.


Oops, I found one case that had a split neck. Must be defective milsurp brass occurs about 1 in 25.

I now have one case that is a "12Gauge From Purgatory 3.25-Inch."

It could still chuck a 3.25-ounce Lead Darwin with aplomb in the 3.85" chamber.

Brass is all cleaned up, belled to ~.730" ID case mouth, thanks to Macifej's devil die idea (Hail Mary), ready for a second fireforming:



Ouch! Circumsized!
No bore envy comments please!



I really need some reloading dies that include a long tapered expander that goes to .729"-ish with a bell on the top of it.

NoHboHzo, Redding, or CH4D?

RIP- I circumcized some cases just like that myself and could still get 200-210gr of H50BMG in it. They were actually near perfect for the Aluminum Darwins with 200gr of IMR 3031. Size it with your 5c collet and load a brass Darwin! Let er RIP! I'll post some pics of my expander which treads into a ammomaster tomorrow. I think your lead ball idea will work with the right powder combination and you can get to .620 with my expander but no more than that.
We should really get the Titanium loading blocks Nitride coated for some real PIMP action! Get a Nice Gold Chain some Nice engraving and sell em as custom 12GaFH Jewlery at SCI!! We will have a 12GaFH Titanium case/ faux loaded round for the gents and Titanium loading blocks for the ladies! We will probably make more money than the guys selling guns!-Rob

Bling, bling to the max...Only in Vegas. Get Stevie W to back you and put them in his gift shops right beside miniature volcanoes and you have it made...or better yet...get the gangbangers to start wearing them and you could start a trend...even mo' better yet...use 20 or 30 MM rounds and a heavy gold chain...talk about a phallic symbol...Hey...I get 10% for the idea and profits...I have the patent papers in the mail, and this idea is now published....Hahahahahahahahaha.

Luck on your projects.

Too funny!
I just need some "dies," not death by laughter!


Y'all:
What is the ideal diameter for the expander on a 2-die or 3-die set, for reloading 12GaFH brass that is all grown up, having survived the hellfire of forming, for .729" bullet diameter?
You can polish one down to a smaller diameter, but you can't put metal back on an expander button or plug ...

That really was funny!!! And I'll bet somebody would really buy it too!
Back to the TOPIC-The brass usually springs back .003 so I'd expand to .736-.738 ID with just a hint of a bell I try and work it as little as possible.-Rob

quote:

expand to .736-.738 ID

...if it doesn't shrink back to .729" for a .729" bullet - your projectile will drop into the case (or not hold position) when loading before it's crimped...of course if you use a big Phat compressed load the bullet can sit on top of the charge while waiting to be squashed into the correct location and crimped...

Macifej- We only use 100%-105% case loads and I only expand about .3-.5inches of the case, when I do it at all.NEF Darwins really should be .7305-.7310 as the rifling is a bit oversized. You really only need to start them anyway. Those darwins are LOOONG boolets. You gets plenty of neck tension! I've never had loose ones so far. If you use .729 bullets a quick squeeze in the 5c collet fixes that.-Rob

The two tone steel/brass cases sounds smart.

Just to be part of the fun..... I have read no part part of this thread....

Have fun..

Show and tell time again ...

Show:





Tell:
I can now handle 27 pieces of brass in upright position.
1" x 1.5" deep holes in a 2.5" deep oak block.
Cheap and simple, and a nice alternate use for my $99 laser-guided-roll-crimper drillpress from China.
Two eleven-holers and one five-holer.
Could be bound together into a single loading block with Ye Olde Rope, for that medieval touch.

BTW, Rob, the first pic also shows the 20 Gauge MEC Super Sizer.
Works even better than a 5C collett for crimping a 12GaFH case mouth,
even an RMC 3.5". Note the leverage of that handle (under the plastic bag).

RIP- That MEC supersizer looks beefy enough for sure! Did you dissassemble your NEF yet? How do the springs look?-Rob

Rob,
Went squirrel hunting last weekend and did not work on the NEF during X-mas holiday.
Will get to it.
Want to try the RMC brass next, and see how easy your brass is to prime for the second fireforming,
with special attention to "arming the primers."

ED:
Given your experience with the RMC brass 3.5" cases,
please consider this for an RMC 3.5" brass case load:

209 primer

15 grains of Blue Dot--duplex load

a single-thickness circle of tissue paper over the Blue Dot -- to keep powders from mixing

150 grains of H50BMG

fiber wad(s) to fill case tight

1400-grain Lead Darwin

Whaddaya think?
Good starting load?
Can the brass stand it?

I am going to drape about 40 pounds of lead shot over my right shoulder and let the NEF-er rip, off hand.

When I get the BMG primers going off reliably,
I will try 180 grains of H50BMG in Rob's case with the 1400-grain Lead Darwins, in 3.85" brass, eh?

I am open on suggestions for how to load the 3.5" RMC brass with slower powders for the 1400-grain Darwin
... otherwise I might have to wade through this thread to find the info, again!

Ed should chime in, but I would load that RMC case with 200gr of H50BMG over your Blue dot and no Fibre wad. You will be at 25KPSI with a 11Kpsi safety margin in Brass.-Rob

RIP- For a slug that heavy start with 100gr of HBMG
as a starting load.The 15 gr starter powder and
tissue over it is ok. If starter load lets case
eject easy, go up 5 gr at a time. And you only
need only 1 or 2 loads of each powder weight level.
Do you have a place to load and step out the door
to shoot into a backstop/bullet trap, as
opposed to going to a range.
Now when it comes to rifle powders I've used with starter
powder, I've only used RL 15,19,22,25. So that is
why I say to start down a little with HBMG.
And the only way I found to be able
use slow rifle powders with shotgun primers is
with starter powder.As our tests showed 4759, 4227,
and VV110 were the only regular rifle powders to have good
ignition wirth shotgun primers.Ed

First off, I hope you all had a very Merry Xmas and I wish you all the best for the New Year (7 hours away for me).

I was just re-reading some of the posts in this thread and the main contention is still getting reliable brass with reliable ignition of powders in some of those brass (RMC) for slow burning powders. This is why most of you are now going with fireformed BMG brass since it has the big BMG primer. Now I was wondering, would it not be possible/simpler to just make the primer hole and flash hole in the RMC brass big enough to fit the BMG primer. This by rights should be a simpler/easier process than all the mucking about to get 12GFH Brass from BMG brass. I know there is an issue with the RMC Brass rim in that some feel or have had it bend or tear in Dies, but I would think with a small modification to the dies or the reloading process that this can be eliminated. After all, isn't this developement so that in the end, its ment to culminate in an easy to do modification to a 12G to enable most ppls to get a 12GFH.

quote:

some feel or have had it bend or tear in Dies

The screw on rim is probably no stronger than a machined one piece rim. There's no real need to resze the lower half of the RMC case so dies should be contoured accordingly and there should be no stuck cases etc. A properly designed shellholder is important as well. Unless someone is gonna shoot factory hulls in their 12GAFH - there's no point in having the thin rim either...

Yes you could change RMC cases that way, and RMC
can make them that way for few bucks more.
I got mine with shotgun primers to test
for a whole bunch of folks, as a lot of
fellows, including many in other countries.
didn't want to and/or couldn't get bmg primers.
With the three fast rifle powders we found
that work with shotgun primers, as well
as slowest shotgun powders many like to use,
you can generate all the top pressures those
turned cases and the NEF, Encore, Rossi, Mossy,etc guns will
hold safely. And you don't have to double up on
hammer or firing pin spring strength. Most bmg guns
have 24+ lb springs on firing pins and the pins
protrude about .085". Most shotguns are only 2/3
of those figures. And whatever speed say you get in a
NEF, with our BMG based cases and HBMG powder, you
can about the same with RMC cases and 4227,4759,
VV110 powders......Now about the different gun...
With Savage you can beef up springs easy
and it can hold more pressure that the RMC cases can go
up to and extract ok.But to do Savage you need heavy barrel
so you can make chamber minimum fit for the BMG based cases
Rob will make, at about the same cost as getting RMC
to make them with big primers. RMC said it would be
a bit extra.Ed

Ed - you should come up with a "Rim Shim" to use with standard cases in a deep rim chamber...

Mac- If they have Rob do them with steel rims,
that you'd leave on all the time they would
hold better coming out of presses. And Rob said
he could build rims from steel. And most
loads with BMG bases case in Savage and
RMC cases in NEF, botton doesn't expand, so I
didn't have to size bottom half.So I've had good
luck with brass rims. But I'd do steel now. Ed

Folks- The BIGGEST advantage of the .50BMG cases is that you can run 55KPSI loads with totally reliable ignition that totally surpass anything you can do in a NEF/Mossy period. Thats where this all started! We are really just fooling with the NEF's/mossys /double rifles till a lower cost High Pressure action becomes available to us. The RMC brass is probably good to 36KPSI (but no one actually knows) which gets you most of the way there, but the brass is really thick and I'm not convinced that those brass rims will live long. Making them thicker helps, but making them out of steel and thicker will really solve the problem. Steel rims with steel .50BMG shellholder adapters should solve all the problems we are facing and its just a matter of swaping 7/8 steel bars for 7/8 brass bars for me. No other changes necessary. I'll do a run in two weeks. I do agree though that RMC should go to .50BMG primers as that is a proven ignition system for lighting off that much powder. I'm still worried about those 209 primers and the possibility of a double concussion as a result of incomplete ignition. I saw that happen once and it wasnt pretty! I think we should focus on spring sets now to make the NEF work totally reliably with .50BMG primers.
Maybe I'm lucky, but I've had no failure to fires or ignition issues with my NEF, and have had great success with just brass .50BMG adapters for reloading. I do think that beefing up the prings and lengthening the firing pin is a good idea though since there appears to be quite a bit of variation in the NEF's. I'll concentrate on how to do that with Ed's help in the next few weeks. Then I'll make the parts available to you guys.
I think Gibs stated it well. Our goal is to develop a low cost reliable gun and cartridge system for the 12gaFH so that many others can own and enjoy them. Right now it takes an advanced degree in wildcatting and we need to simplify things enourmously.

Well in any event, We all learned a HUGH AMOUNT about the 12GaFH in 2008 and made a great deal of improvements. I'd like to say thanks to everyone here for there contributions and willingness to share their knowledge. We have gone where no one has gone before and its been fun! Best wishes for a healthy and prosperous 2009! -Rob

Rob...You've got mail.

Good stuff.
Even the plastic hulls have steel rims, that are brass plated. That "high brass" is steel.
A screw-on steel rim for the RMC brass would be an improvement too,
but still not as improved as the 50BMG-based brass with CCI-35 primer and steel rim screwed on.

Take the basic 8-dollar RMC 3.5" 12ga brass case, machine the base for a screw-on steel rim, and alter the primer pocket for CCI-35 primer, and how much would one of those cases cost?

Might as well commission a special batch of machined stainless steel cases all in one-piece configuration.

And due to the .033" case mouth wall thickness they are harder to work with in reloading, but they do fit very well into the standard 3.5" shotgun chamber that has been simply extended to 3.85".

I shall endeavor to persevere, working up loads and mechanic-ing the NEF-er.
Doing good ain't got no end.
The road to 12Ga From Hell is paved with good intentions,
and traveled at your own risk!
Happy New Year!

Rob - if you're gonna make the rims in steel why not 316 stainless and run them in the tumbler with some rouge...

Red Loc-tite them on and that'll be el permanente eh..??

The RMC cases go to 30-36 psi depending on chamber clearances and
powder used. But you can't beat the BMG based case for taking
pressures and good ignition. Now I know guys don't like to
take guns apart but but the mods to the NEF for letting
firing pin protrude more, take half a day at most and you
can also strengthen locking lug spring, For last part you find spring
that fits inside original to double up the,strength.
If you have a GunParts catalog it has a good shematic
of NEF/H&R break actions
I did some final 10ga testing in the newer real
heavy barreled NEF 10ga, that is going to soon be an
8GA FH, after reaming out. The internal brake set up
on the end as shown in picture above works great.
Gun now is 14 lbs and has thumbhole stock.
Top load with 3.5" plastic case, 765gr slug,
135gr of 4227, 2200 fps, 8200 ft lbs.Ed

316 stainless is nice stuff to turn. I'll have to order some 7/8 rod unless I have some tucked away. -Rob

Well 1 good thing about a SS Rim, it will be stronger than the Brass casing, so if anything does give, it should be the brass casing an not the SS rim. The rim should still be reuseable, It be easier to replace a stuffed up casing than getting a new set of rims. Since atm Robs the only 1 makeing the rims! Now while thats all well an good, it still is a very limiting factor on making the 12GFH a wide spread mod! You have indeed come a long way on the developement and R&D is always the most expencive and also the most interesting, but at the end of the day, it has to be realiably repeatable and not overly expensive if its to catch on. How to do that, I have no bloody idea!

The only thought I have is that, realisticaly, we need a major company willing to make a casing to your specs. But we would have to prove a serious demand for the casing in order to keep the price down since a production run tooling is not cheap. The more that a company can sell, the cheaper each unit will cost to buy.

Edit: Addition - damn it had another thought!

Is it possible to SMELT a brass casing at home ? If so all we would need is for a mold maker!
Just a thought.

quote:

Is it possible to SMELT a brass casing at home ?

NO! It's not...

1) Temps are way too high to melt brass or copper in your garage...(850 C or so)

2) no way to control the

a) grain structure
b) temper
c) tolerances

There are four ways to make a cartridge case only one of which is practical for small scale production (less than a few thousand pieces)

1) Conventional deep drawing

2) Flowforming (requires CNC finishing for the details)

3) Spiral wound (still requires a separate machined or drawn/stamped base)

4) CNC Machine from bar stock. (the only method which doesn't require expensive tooling).

I take another view...it is one thing to push the limits of rifle, case and shooter and quite another to develop a viable "hunting" weapon that can be carted around to hunt the savage beasty. Not very many people are willing to carry much over 10 lbs in a rifle without carping about the "excess weight".

Needing a 15-20# rifle to soak up the very heavy recoil of a 1400 gr slug at 12-1500 f/s, limits the user base considerably as far as all the components are concerned and the intrigue will soon pass in those that are all wound up right now. Of course if this is kept out in the public eye there will always be some ardent followers and new acolytes.

I also believe that as the problems are ironed out, a "standardized" cartridge case will arrive, as the NEF platform becomes more and more popular and people keep requesting thumbhole stocks, some maker will see a niche to fill and the stocks will become more readily available...Slugs and loads will be developed to fit the different interests, hammer spring "kits" will be offered to handle the BMG primers, reloading components will be fine tuned and more "actual" hunting experiences will ensue...maybe someone will offer a longer drop in barrel for the NEF and the double rifle experiments will be finalized.

New developments take time to get all the bugs worked out...I've been following this thread since Ed's first "12GAFH" posting and have seen many things change, new ideas come out and offered a few of my own observations and testings. So far this is such a small niche and the shakers and makers are still working out the details. I think Rob is going to get stretched a bit thin as time goes on, trying to produce, develop and test, along with finding time to eat, sleep, earn a living and have a life beyond the 12GAFH...

I am working toward a hunting weapon that optimizes and balances all the parameters for a close in "stopper" that also optimizes quick second and third round recharges and relatively quick handling...somwhat a different bucket of worms than achieving maxinum slug weight and velocity off a bench...everyone has their own needs and desires which makes this such a fun thing.

I think this "thingy" has a future unless the bottom falls out and we all go belly up...only time will tell.

Ok, scratch the smelting, as i said, was only a thought, since i have done smelting before with steel.

I think all the bugs are beginning to work out nicely. We need more 12gafH guns out there so the problems come to the surface and we can fix them. The .600Ok followed exactly the same path and now ther are are about 100 of them out there. PEOPLE HESITATED BEACUSE OF THE BRASS SUPPLY AND NOW THATS NO LONGER AN ISSUE. Ive been told by very experienced folks to not underestimate the number of people who simply must have the biggest and baddest. The .600Ok required a custom cartridge and we have a huge advantage of readily available .50 bmg brass to start with. Any good CNC shop could make the brass and rims so I'm not a one stop shop. To be clear, if we simply had a reliable source of the straight walled cases ED found, then with stainless rims. I believe we would be able to offer complete turnkey packages for thec 12GaFH.-Rob

I loaded three of Rob's Brass Darwins just to see how the 15-grain Blue Dot duplex priming works for setting off the H50BMG in the RMC cases with CCI-209 primers.

I separated the two-ply Kleenex into its single plies, and cut a little circle of .725" diameter to drop in the case over the Blue Dot, then poured in 120 grains of H50BMG. That fills the case to about halfway from thick brass base to mouth. An empty 3.5" RMC case will hold about 310 grains of H50BMG to case mouth.

Then I placed a 0.065" thick 12-Ga Nitro Card over the H50BMG, then two 0.5" thick fiber wads, then a final Nitro Card, and packed everything down firmly, to level the Brass Darwin for crimping where I wanted it.
COL = 4.060"

Sorry no chrono, the light was bad, I gotta rig some artificial lighting over the chrono so that won't happen again.

This is a starting point, will work up in 5 grain increments and chrono as I go.
Then switch over to 1400-grain lead Darwins when I see where I am at with the 1085-grainers.

There were a few unburnt grains of H50BMG left in the barrel of the NEF-er, only 2 or three grains spotted after each shot, but mucho better than when using IMR 4350 with the CCI-35 primer and grits and modeling clay plug.
CCI-209 and Blue Dot worked very well.
Maybe 20 grains of Blue Dot next, and more H50BMG.
I am sure the heavier slugs will be better with the H50BMG, in getting a more efficient burn.

BTW recoil with this load was very light. No shot bags for my shoulder were used.
Less recoil than with the 1400-grain Lead Darwin at 1000 fps using the 65 grains of IMR-4227 in the plastic hulls.
Will work up to 220 grains of H50BMG and shorten the wad column as I go, as long as the RMC cases hold up and I will use the 40-pound lead drape for my shoulder if it starts to hurt.

Zero base expansion.
The case mouths were smaller after firing than they were before necking down with that 5C Collett. I found the one Rob enlarged a bit from 3/4" to work well.

The RMC case mouth O.D. before crimping was .797", and .792" after crimping down and firing it.
The base O.D. was .809" before and after firing.
It is thick brass and a nice fit in the standard shotgun chamber. Smoking of the cases was not bad.











Brother BIP insisted on shooting my target with one of his plastic-hulled 3" loads utilizing three 50-cal muzzleloader balls and some "seven and a half" birdshot used as buffer for the balls:

The first two Brass Darwins went into one hole at 25 yards. I got excited and pulled the third.

RIP- Excellent work. I didnt even notice the recoil till I hit 240gr of H50BMG. Accuracy looks great too.-Rob

Nice looking loaded carts.

Gotta wonder what the 100 yard scoped accuracy would be once the load is sufficiently hotted-up.

RIP - do you think you should anneal the cases to prevent that minor blow-back or is it no big deal at the lower pressures..??

Thanks, Rob.
Still no chrono data, but I will soon have a place to hang my hat with your cases and H50BMG.
Will use some battery-powered LED "white light" over the sky screens if things are too dim next time. I have a lighting rig in mind, with components from Walmart.

A transition of loads from RMC cases to NoHboHzo cases will not be hard.

Thanks Jay,
Surely sub-MOA 100-yard 3-shot groups will be possible. I think 5-shot groups are not necessary, but gluttons for punishment should get sub-1.5 MOA 5-shot groups. Good'nuff fer huntin'.

Good idea on the annealing.
I cannot tell they were ever annealed at RMC.
They are hard mofo case mouths!

I will anneal them all and clean them up after one firing.

We need some mo fokes 'sides Rob, Ed, and me generating load data.

Gotta get Herr Kayser on the program - he likes abusing targets with really big stuff. I'd love to do it myself but have my hands full and then some.

Ah, well, for some of us, the 12 gauge gun is the Alpha and the Omega, for which both the spirit is willing and the flesh is strong, without which there is no joy in life.
Country boys, raised on shotguns ...

I will start from scratch with another NEF-er and build it into a 50BMG-primer capable gun, with Vais Brake, for no-filler loads. The one I have now is good with the 209 primers.

If a heavier spring (24#) and 0.085" firing pin protrusion is used, as Ed suggested, will this pierce a shotgun primer? 209 primers are much thinner and softer in the cup.

209 primers sound like a toy cap gun going off if they pop while you are hammering them into the cases with the RMC Kit. Strangely, one of them went off in the latest batch. Had to hammer that one out and hammer another one in.

The ultimate 12GaFH ought to be chambered with a reamer that is tighter than mine. Needs to be a close match to 50BMG cases blown out.
That is still big enough to chamber standard 12Ga shotgun ammo, which is a sloppy fit in a standard 12Ga chamber.

And, of course, an action built from scratch with CCI-35 primer capability is needed for the ultimate 12GaFH, single shot or double barrel.

There's an easier and safer way to prime those cases without dies...PM incoming...

Yes,
I have better ways, but it is fun pounding them in with a hammer and brass rod on a steel block. Exciting when one goes off. Brings a big grin.
My RCBS Mini Grand will handle 3.5" hulls, primes with the crank of a handle, and several bench presses and hand tools and priming kits that could be rigged.

RIP- I think you will be pretty safe increasing the H50BMG by 10gr at a time with those RMC cases and cant wait till you get the .50BMG ones firing. My buddy and I got pretty decent accuracy from the 220gr H50BMG loads offhand at 50yrds. Pretty much all the brass Darwins went into a big 2" hole with both of us shooting. I was surprised and pleased by the accuracy. I suppose I should not be, as they pretty much weighed within .1 gr of each other. The aluminum ones do the same thing! I still dont like those 209 primers. Thats a whole lot of powder to ignite with a cap gun primer. If the firing pins are properly rounded, I doubt you will pierce a primer even with stronger springs and more protrusion.. I used to make springs on the Lathe but never tried a doubled spring. I need to order some #24 spring wire and give it a try. I have not made springs in years. I use a M2(SQUARED) .50bmg PRIMER SEATER for the ammomaster press made by Mike matter. Pricey but allows consistent primer seating and arming. Having a .50BMG primer go off is more like a .22LR and could be dangerous.-Rob