Has anyone done some load development for the 458AR at the lower end of the scale?

Looking to get some light loads for my son to try out the AccRel with. I have some 350gr SP that should be just right, though need an idea on the powder.

Paz

Paz
I did some low end, low recoil loads
320gr, 80gr i4895, 3.3"oal, 23"barrel, and 2280fps ...

and 77gr of i4895 for rem405s as a start load
about 2000 fps

good on ya

I use a 435 gr cast GCFP bullet with 50.0 gr of AA 5744. Recoil is quite reasonable. In "fast pair" practice (aimed shot, fast reload, fastest aimed shot I can do) at 50 yards, last time out I had 10 of 12 rounds in 2" with two fliers ... which were operator error on the second shot.

I'd hunt deer and piggies with the load for sure.

Jeffe, just wanting to let you know, your package arrived today in Australia, thanx mate your are "the man"

I'll dummy up those 500 AccRel cases with a 535g Woodleigh and get them, the magazine follower box, spring and follower plate to my gunsmith early next week for him to work on the action rails and feeding

regards
S&F

Joe,
Glad you guys got it... I am certain you got them made up today... and if you work at it, you can put a WICKED crimp on them... when i make up feeding dummies, I like to put thread locker on the base of the bullet.. super glue is NOT the answer ... you can also drill out the base (like 3/16) and fill with acra glass/epoxy

this does two things.. keeps the bullet in longer, and will add some weight

Cheers!

Here they are




From the left
* 458 AccRel with 405g Proto
* 500 AccRel with a 535g Woodleigh

* 416 Taylor with a 410g Taipan
* 375 H&H with a 250g speer

and another



From the left
* 416 Rigby
* Case is trimmed, expanded and ready to be firefomed
* One of Jeffe's Fireformed cases
* Dummy 500 AccRel
* 416 Taylor
* 375 H&H


I'm going to load the rest of the dummies up this weekend and get them off to my gunsmith on Monday

Thanx a million Jeff

regards
S&F

Awesome Joe.. you certainly take better pics than me,,


Neal -- I recieved the first pair of each of the .40s...
416 AccRel
458 AccRel
470 AccRel

500 AccRel can't be fair behind!!!

wow --
I got off into playing with atv's and quads, and this thread has languished..

I just loaded some NE equal loads for all 4 AccRels tonight

416 - 400gr at 2150
458 - 500gr at 2150
470 - (opps, not NE loads) 400gr at 2250
500 - 570 at 2150 ..

These ought to be very easy on the shoulder
jeffe

Been thinkin' about when to use next deer hunting. Have the tag-out (3) bow deer and a rifle deer (with the Ottmar). Usually go to pistol and then Double Rifle before the ML season starts trying for the "grand slam" (a whitetail with every class of weapon allowed).

Have done the "grand slam" twice before. Think I may substitute "elephant gun" for the double rifle and use the .458 AR ;>

Kinda sounds like fun. Bet a 430 gr FPGC cast bullet would do just fine. Do want to use it on game before it goes to SA in May.

That .500 AccRel is just AWSOME!!!
If the Jeffery had been constructed like that, it would have been the most poular big game round in history!

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
That .500 AccRel is just AWSOME!!!
If the Jeffery had been constructed like that, it would have been the most poular big game round in history!

awe ... THANKS!! shucks.. <blush> .. if you look at the measurements, i borrrowed from the jeffe, a bit.. but it has a full caliber neck ...

which looks FUNNY after all the short necks on the other ARs

I just got in from checking those loads.. powder puff is the WRONG word!

we were shooting the 500 AR last night
in the SNOW

500 NE 570gr 2150fps -
1.75" groups, in the driving snow and wind ...
and trust me, *I* aint used to the cold

I just gotta say the 500 AR kicks ass!!!

Details to follow...

we should have prices for AR bras in the next couple days..

these will be offered through custombrassandbullets.com

Guys, the AR recently proved themselves on a hunt with a couple guys to drive them

pictures will be on
www.weaponsmith.com/images/dec08

I am loading pics right now

the ones called grewsome ARE kinda nasty... its where the 500 AR (piggie head seeking bullets) with 570gr woodies at 2150ish... well, they open them right up

jeffe

we put together a hunt, every year, for piggies and exotics... this year, it turned out to be only piggies taken

I had the 500 AR, Boomie his 470AR, Neal his 458 AR, and Invader used his 375 HH, though we had a pipsqeek load on the 416 AR that made it out at an under the lights gun .. the 416 didn't collect any bacon

guys, 28degs and STILL 50% humnidity is still dang cold!

Friday morning --
two small hogs taken
one was previsouly badly wounded, and we could not take the meat, the other one went in the stew pot, while we went out and hunted these



this shows 4 pigs, about 70-90lbs each, and there's a 5th on being quartered out behind the photag...

then we went back and ate the first one!

Was such a fun time!

There was one pig that was around 350lbs... his name is "Lucky" but wont respond to that name because he is deaf if you see a bum leg monster hog in Texas it just might be "Lucky"

Maybe "Lucky" was some kind of cat-hog cross breed with 9 lives

Gene... that 10th shot would have surely killed it!

You know all in fun Gene


Those 400 grain gold dot pistol bullets were pig busters! all exited with great affect

The 500 AR in a Ruger MkII is such an awesome rig/cart combo and man what it did to those pigs

.50 B&M Long
http://www.ammoguide.com/cgi-b...ME=.50+B%26M+Long%2C

Accurate Reloading cartridges
http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/a...TpeFD&cky=&catid=604
http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/a...cTtqa&cky=&catid=605
http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/a...Jecaj&cky=&catid=606
http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/a...xUmxA&cky=&catid=607

How does the AR compare to the B&M cartridge? It looks like the B&M might be a little easier to make since it doesn't have to deal with the factory case neck. Are the B&M's made in smaller calibers (~.40, .458, or .470)? Does the reduced case length of the B&M present any problems with the rifle action or magazine?

Does a Winchester WSM rifle make a better host then a Remington Magnum?

I'm thinking it may be preferable to sell my Weatherby which I am considering rebarreling to .470Mbogo for something a little better for North America in a .458 or .470 AR caliber.

Best Regards,
Sid

Sid

Between Jeffes AR cartridges and the B&M cartridges we cover a very wide spectrum of performance and rifles. To compare them to each other is a bit moot. Let me explain, but we will keep it in terms of the cartridges from the say AR 416-458-470 and the 416 and 458 B&M. I have yet, and probably won't do a 470 B&M. The 50 B&M is a unique 500 caliber rifle, not being near as versatile as the 416s and 458s.

The basics are that the B&M case is to the AR case very much the same as the 458 Winchester is to the 458 Lott--or the 416 Taylor is to the 416 Remington. Performance of the AR cartridges is a bit more because of the added length of the 2.55 inch case.

The merits of the AR cartridges (as I see it, I am sure Jeffe can do a far better job than I) is that you can get 458 Lott performance in a standard length action, with a 20-23 inch barrel at max. Same with the 416 and 470 AR. The AR series of cartridges are superb at equaling and surpassing the old standbys such as the 416 Remington, 458 Lott, and 470 Capsticks on more versatile platforms!

As for the AR cases being difficult to make I cannot attest to that, but I don't see them being much of an issue, but I defer to Jeffe that one.

The B&M series, are based only on Winchester M70 WSM actions. I have never had one built on another action. Of course I am a die hard M70 fan with extreme prejudice, so while it may be able to be done on other actions I would not do so for myself. I do know that the Remington 700 short action mag action is not long enough in the magazine, so it is out. Others I cannot say as I have zero experience in that area.

The reason for the existence of the B&M series is not exactly the cartridges alone, it is the entire platform that must be looked at. I wanted a small, short, handy package, that still had enough power behind it to use for dangerous game, thin and thick skinned. What I ended up with is a 50 B&M Long .500 caliber housed in a M70 WSM action with 18 inch barrels and 7-8 lbs depending on the stock. A 510 gr bullet at 2100 fps. It was natural to squeeze this case down to 458 and then down to 416 caliber. The basics for the 458 B&M is a Win M70 WSM action, 18 inch barrels and 500 gr at 2130+fps and 450s at or above 2200 fps, 20 inch barrels give about 30 fps or more for the added 2 inches. The 416 B&Ms have all be 20 inch guns so far, I have an 18 inch gun in the works. Same action 20 inch barrel 400s up to 2300 fps--350s at 2400-2450 fps. I achieved what I was personally after, smaller gun with plenty of punch, easy to handle.

Either the AR or the B&M would do fine for anything you could ever want to do in North America, with the AR edging the B&Ms on top performance by a couple hundred fps more or less.

Now I hope I have not stepped on any toes here, this is Jeffes thread. If I were building a rifle today and had no idea about the B&Ms which is strictly a personal endeavor of mine, then I would without doubt get rid of that "Weatherby" get myself a real rifle chambered in one of the AR cartridges of Jeffes and go to work with it!

I now remit to Jeffe as he can give you for better and pertinent info on the AR series.

Michael

Thanks Michael
To stretch his metaphor, think 308 vs 30-06... in other words, its more a matter of choice

both have headstamped brass avialable (or nearly) and from the same place

Both have good dies available ... Hornady for the 416, 458, and 470 AR, and a durn good, if you can get them, for the 500. Even CH4d makes the 40s.

if you use 375 RUM cases, to make you own, it DOES require fireforming and trimming... this is a small hassle, and using 375 rum cases, the number of cases lost is low.

If you buy the headstamped brass, you'll have to trim and form.. no biggie, right?

I love all mine, and have taken game with them all... the 416 is a 416, the 458 is wicked, the 470 is well, heh, the ONLY 470 in a standard lenth action!!! and the 500, well, its the only 3.4" .510 chunker, and it easily does 500 jeffe/505 gibbs/500 Nirto FACTORY loads, and is right on the heels of the 510wells.. no, SERIOUSLY, its the same case capacity as the .495 a2,

about the only thing better between them, and this is TOTALLY arguable ..
the ARs have .475 and .510 bullets

and, of course, i've spent the last 2 days in the shop, making a monoblock for a 45/120 pig doublegun .. [it's coming along)

Thank you! You both are helping me a great deal and I appreciate it very much. My ammoguide searches didn't turn up the other B&M cartridges so I appreciate that extra bit of data to further confuse me ....

I have my eye on an FN/W70 WSM action which looked like a good fit for a B&M build. Seems like I was on the right track with that one.

The AR series certainly has a loyal following for good reason so, I know I wouldn't go wrong there either. Remington donors are pretty easy to find and Pac-Nor seems to be setup for an easy turn-key rebarrel so, that seems like a slightly preferable option. At the ranges I would be shooting this rifle though, I'm not sure the velocity difference is significant to me but I could always back off the AR round and get B&M velocities and reduced recoil if I wanted to.

Sid,
What the guys have said above is great info. I see your choice this way. If your after a lighter rifle for North American duties then the B&Ms sound fantastic. If your after a 458Lott equivalent, then the AR is for you, but you'll need to house it in a heavier package to keep it comfortable or download it. Years ago I really enjoyed shooting a 458WinMag with a 350gr at 2470fps, an even more compact rifle with similar ballistics (458B&M) would be damn tempting!
Cheers...
Con

Con and Sid

Guys I see no reason to agonize, fuss or fret over making a decision concerning these sort of matters. I have the perfect solution to the problem!

Build one of each of all the AR Cartridges and all the B&M cartridges and you will be set for life and never come up short again!!!!!! Just pick and choose depending on your mood for the day!

Michael

Thats the great thing about choices... you can make what suits you. All of the big ole wildcatters here on are are buddies, and we all take it as a compliment when you consider them, and especially if you pick any of "ours"

let's face it, Dave and his www.470mbogo.com started it all for us (Dave, Rob, Neal, John, and I) and probably for Boomie and Ed as well. And we all have VERY strong influences on each other's designs.. for example, I designed the 700 DA as a half joke for John, based off Ed's larger case, to fit in the PH action, which lead to the 1.2 thread on the PH..

Acknowledgement of our work is probably 1/2 of why we do these!

Michael,

I hear what you're saying loud and clear! In fact I have used that strategy when I was younger with my handguns and rifles. My current bolt actions span the range from 22lr (a really nice Kimber to name one) through centerfires (.223, 7x57, 25-06, .308, 300 Win Mag, and a Weatherby 338-378).

The big bore and wildcat bug has bitten me pretty hard. After I started construction on my 338-06AI, I decided I really needed a .280AI too.

Since these big bores won't see nearly as much use, I'm reluctant to initially go with a multi-gun battery. Plus, I need to buy one and learn with it before I commit too much money and learn I really would be better off with something else (CZ Custom Shop classic versus a custom wildcat build or a modified factory gun ... maybe a used "old" British classic if I'm patient).

I really like the easy access and relatively low cost of a factory CZ rifle but, I can see a strong appeal of a beltless wildcat in a shorter rifle action.

Best Regards,
Sid

Sid,
I would suggest to you that you get a bone stock 458 lott cz.. then do the following
limb saver pad
remove front sling stud... aka finger groving tool..

had it bedded

get 2 boxes of shells
500 pieces of rem 405
dies
and a good powder, either 4895 is good for the lott

and shoot the holy heck out of it...

then, if you hate it, you have a good package to sell off

and if you love it, KEEP IT

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Acknowledgment of our work is probably 1/2 of why we do these!

The creativity of all of you are what keeps me coming back to this forum. I have been following Marty ter Weeme of TeppoJutsu for a long time and see similar things here. Highly knowledgeable, creative, and motivated individuals are bringing innovative designs to a larger audience. If we could only get a mainstream manufacturer to pick up one (or more) of these cartridges in a reasonably priced rifle, everything from head stamped brass to affordable rifles would follow. Of course that would kill the marketing of all the new boutique cartridges (RCM, RUM, WSM, .450 Bushmaster, etc.) that seem to keep popping up.

Marty finally got Rock River Arms to build an affordable factory 458 Socom and limited factory ammunition followed. I'm still waiting on brass for a 338 Spectre. My Alexander Arms rifles fall into a similar category but, with Lapua and Wolfe supporting his cartridges I have much easier access to ammunition (and it is generally cheap/affordable for the quality received).

These Remington Ultramag options seem to fall into the same general category. I hope that a mainstream manufacturer will pick up the cartridges someday and make them more accessible to mainstream sportsman. Affordable rifles will help get affordable ammunition in wider distribution and everyone will benefit. I just wish it wasn't so hard to move on from the legacy of the old classic British cartridges from the black powder and cordite era.

I finally found the other B&M cartridges on the ammoguide website. Their Java coding sure doesn't make it easy ....

From the limited load data there, I don't see a lot of velocity difference. However, with the creators statements I know the load data there must be a little incomplete. The extra case capacity also supports a velocity difference.

Sid

I am glad you found it. As for the B&M there are a couple of things. The actual length of the cartridge I changed to 2.25. The data on the 416 B&M is fairly complete with the basics of the 21 loads listed. Of course there are tons more data that I have, I just listed some of the high lights. I am sure Jeffe has not listed all he has for the 416 AR yet.

When you get to the 458 AR and the 458 B&M you will start to see the differences that we are talking about.

Both good cartridges and rifles depending on the power level you want to be at, and the size rifle you want to be at. Can't go wrong with either.

Of course from both Jeffe and myself should you choose to do either-or you will have our full support.

Not too long ago we had one of the manufacturers actually looking at one of the B&M cartridges and how it would fit into their action. I doubt anything will come of it in the end, but it does make you feel pretty good!

Jeffe, ever put the ARs on a Win M70? The 416-458-470 AR???

Michael

Sid,

The case capacity of the .458 B&M is shown on Ammoload to be 92.5 grains of water and for the .458 AR is 104.2. The length comparison is 2.295 versus 2.995"

I would expect that the AR cartridge is able to outperform the B&M or reach the same velocities at lower pressures.

I can tell you that the performance of the AR cartridge is superb ... great velocities at low pressures (because I get the velocities I want WAY before I show pressure sign). A real tribute to the design team!

Enjoy whatever you choose to build.

Michael
We've dome them on
enfields
Rugers mki and mkii
m70s
mausers
springfields
weatherby vangards

I really didn't do much 416 load dev once it did what i wanted.. 350gr and 400 gr at working loads and pressure, there it was.. it worked at 2480fps, and i just gave it that... i was more interested in the 458 and 470... and then the 500 got my attention!

Mike - you are right, it got to where i was tired of the recoil before i was done with cases

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I really didn't do much 416 load dev once it did what i wanted.. 350gr and 400 gr at working loads and pressure, there it was.. it worked at 2480fps, and i just gave it that... i was more interested in the 458 and 470... and then the 500 got my attention!

Bit annoying that! I just threw a mid 458Lott load of AR2206H (H4895) into the 458AR case behind the 500gr Woodleigh, chronographed it at 2230fps ... why go any further!
Cheers...
Con

Good luck with your idea.

here's progress

http://www.qual-cart.com/headstamp.htm

Qual cart is LISTING the AR rounds as properly headstamped.

That means they are, if requested enough times, going to be available through midway (that's WEIRD)

Holy Cow, yall .. thanks for the support, help, and acceptance!
j

I guess we just made the hop from Wildcat to Proprietary cart !!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I guess we just made the hop from Wildcat to Proprietary cart !!!!!!!!

boom stick,

What do you mean by 'we'? As I recall, you had NOTHING to do with creating the AR family of cartridges, and do not even handload.

George

George,
In all fairness, he DID question that we didn't have anything named after AR ... which sparked the whole thing!

George... Happy new year. The only thing I was infering is being one of the lucky guys who has one. I am so happy people can come together here and create great things and not wait for a manufacturer to come up with it.

We all know Jeffeosso has done everything and then some so that was never in question. I can see how that could be read that way but nobody questions the parentage and all you have to do is read the hundreds of posts here that documents this. Congrats again Jeffe on a great milestone in the project.

Qual-Cart is now ready to make our brass!!
www.custombrassandbullets.com will have all 4 of the AR/Accrels avaialble within a couple days.

Pete did NOT charge us the minimum order, but did roll the pricing up ... These prices are right inline with his current "run of the mill"
brass, and we get them Headstamped for us!

416 Accurate Reloading Brass per 20, LIST is $57.97

458 Accurate Reloading Brass per 20, LIST is $57.97

470 Accurate Reloading Brass per 20, LIST is $57.97

500 Accurate Reloading Brass per 20, LIST is $67.97

I am ordering 400 pieces, to get the ball rolling. that's 100 each

Jeffe