thank you very much! I have been making plans for that press.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Thanx Jeff

I'm sure Penny at PACNOR will pack those dies and bits off with my replacement 500 AccRel barrel as a special favour and we will have them in a few short weeks

As a teaser

Here's a quick photo of Cons new 458 AccRel just about finished, it only has to be bedded



His barrel is gigantic very heavy, I recon recoil will be mild

We have used SAKO cross bolts they are wider than the Brownell offering, and for that reason will really work well to stop the inletting from opening up. The high tensile threaded rod is thin enough so that it doesnt extrude outside of the webbing infront of the trigger.

The Sako Xbolts look like this, the tool...well...I had to make it up myself it is actually a modified spike remover for golf shoes


The Factory laminate stock is soft, it will need all the help it can get

My rifle will arrive 2moro and I will be Devcon Stainless Steel Bedding bedding both of them on the weekend as well



regards
S&F

quote:

Originally posted by ShortandFat:
His barrel is gigantic very heavy, I recon recoil will be mild.

My rifle will arrive 2moro and I will be Devcon Stainless Steel Bedding bedding both of them on the weekend as well.

I hope its mild ... the 'man-bra' is away being compared to a PAST. From memory I had a #6, straight taper barrel turned for me at 24" with the intention to later chop back to 22"-21" to find a nice balance point ... but for now it'll stay full length.

I'll 'seek permission' to come give you a hand with the bedding.

We're almost there now!
Cheers...
Con

well, fellas, the wait has to be killing Con ,,,, opps, i am certain THAT helps

Here is some more 458ar data:

Mt. Baldy 550gr cast bullet gas checked, 75gr N530, COAL or 3.170", avg. three shot velocity 2159 fps. Accuracy was not very good.

This load generated some of the worst recoil I have yet to feel behind a rifle, and yet the primers were still round and the cases fell from the chamber, WOW! I will let my friends shoot the remaining loads and swith to xmp5744 for a more reasonable plinking load.

Added to ammoguide...
we have 27 458 AR loads on there, which, when you look at the other loaded roudnm there, this is a pretty wide range of loads, powders, and bullets.. thanks everyone for the help here!!

oh, peyton, that was "just" 5700ft-lbs

OK the Aussie 458 AccRel's are only days away from being fired, just waiting for the bedding to go off and Con to load up some more fireforming ammo

It's been a long time coming, nearly 9 months, but Con and I will finally get to shoot our rifles off

Here's a look at the rifles with a quick description of what we have done to date


This is Con's 458 AccRel, it used to be a well loved Ruger M77 2 in 300 Win Mag, he tossed the black boat paddle stock into the cupboard and located a factory laminate, I installed a 1/4 inch threaded rod into the pistol grip, and epoxied the cross bolts in.

The barrel is a Straight taper #6 profile at 23inches 1:15 twist, a barrel recoil lug has been installed, action has been Devcon stainless steel bedded

I think Con will be topping his rifle off with the original ruger mounts and a straight 4 power Leupold



Here's mine, It was a new Hawkeye 338 Win Mag, with a walnut stock, its also has a 1/4 nch wrist pin and cross bolts epoxied in place, the hawkeye stock is a lot thinner and "rounder" than the older ones so the cross bolts were a little hard to get right, they have been slightly recessed into the stock, I also added a 1 inch Limbsaver

The barrel is about a #5.5 ruger profile at 24 inches, 1:15 twist, second recoil lug added and the stock has been Devcon stainless steel bedded

Topped off with new B-Square Scope mounts (hope they are strong enough) and my old faithful Leupold Vari X2c 2-7

My only regret to date is that they have come up heavier than I wanted, but a weight loss program of deep fluting and an inch or two taken off might lighten things up

No open sights on these, we are saving that for the 500 AccRels

We will let you know how they shoot this weekend

regards
S&F

Wow Mates, looking GREAT
please remember to releave the rear of the tang!

Start with the 2100 fps loads to get warmed up!!
jeffe

To add to S&F's report:
Mine (top rifle) will have a 2.5x Leupold slotted ontop, at a later date it'll get a lick of DuraCoat and depending on balance it may have its barrel docked 2". It may also eventually wear a set of open sights. My ideal feel when completed is an ever so slightly muzzle heavy "club".

At the moment (to me) ... my #6 barrel straight tapered barrel (0.750" at muzzle ... and I think we extended the parallel at breech end by 1" over standard Ruger) makes it balance slightly muzzle heavy whereas S&F's (#5.5, 0.750" at muzzle but contoured profile) is nuetrally balanced. I personally prefer the slight muzzle heaviness for offhand shooting, but S&F's may be better for fast handling ... I really think his is weighted perfectly for what most people seek in a DGR.

I reckon S&F is nuts about the weight ... we need to slot them on the scales for a definitive answer ... but an ultralight kicking a 500gr at 2350fps is not my idea of fun! Mind you ... I've started cutting back a boatpaddle stock for the hell of it!! I reckon that the predominance of light sporters has tended to confuse the issue as to what a DGR big bore should weigh. The Brits I belive had it right seeking a 10-11lb rifle when a 500gr was being launched at 2150fps.
Cheers...
Con

Looking forward to the shooting report. The rifles look great. At first I hated my boatpaddle stock but with a limbsaver pad on there now I've come to enjoy it. Rem 405s at ~2400 is shootable and cheap.

OK

Fired the first few rounds off in my new 458AR to form a few cases

I only had 2 cases that I quickly annealed and 2 that I hadn't

I have a bucket full of remington 405 flat nose to fire off for case forming

The load was a warm 458 Win Mag load 75grains of ADI 2206H which has a similar burn rate to your H4895, the 458AR case still had heaps of room left with this load

Well, long story short, the annealed cases blew out nicely with sharp shoulders, very clean

The cases that weren't annealed hardly changed shape, cases came out black, there was heaps of blow back soot, even on the bolt face, I even felt a tiny bit of it splash my face

Never thought it would matter that much

OK so now I have to decide if I should anneal the rest of the cases or up the dose of powder to about 80 grains to push the case and shoulders out

Recoil, .......well I'm not sure if it was the gun weight, or the limbsaver kick pad, but I didn't notice it at all

More to come, 2moro night

regards
S&F

S&F,

I think you're in the right burn rate range with the powder. H335 seems to be about optimum so you're H4895 equivalent may be just a little slow but it's close.

At 75 gr of ADI 2206H with a 405 jacketed bullet your load is likely to be a bit of a powderpuff ... so don't get the idea that the .458 AR is a popgun. I use 85 grs of H335 behind a 425 Rhino. Seems to be very moderate in pressure. That load yields abt 2375 fps from a 22" bbl and its recoil is mild in comparison to a 500 gr Woodleigh pushed hard.

Great to get real info on the annealing for fire forming! Thanks.

Mike,
Just to clarify, AR2206H is your H4895 apart from lot to lot variations. We make it and repackage/export it to Hodgdon. It'll indeed be interesting to see how it responds to being loaded up. S&F is coming over this weekend for a brick busting session and we just may run a few 500gr Woodleigh's over the Chrony. Mind you we've both kind of formed the same opinion that the 400gr Woodleigh spitzer will be perfect for our application ... Sambar deer.
Sad thing for us is AR2206H replaced AR2206 which was 3% faster and is now hard to find on gunshop shelves. But BM2 (your Benchmark) is said to be an AR2206 equivalent (very close) with finer grains. They say the grain size is for more consistent metering ... we think its so you can get more into a 458AccRel case

If jeffe was in OZ I'd buy him a slab of bourbon because what S&F has failed to mention is that the Rem 405gr with its chamber edge catching flat nose feeds like goose snot through two Ruger based rifles with nil modifications to magazine box or rails. We anticipate no troubles with RN projectiles or the Woodleigh spitzer.
Jeffe, bloody well done ...
Cheers...
Con

thanks for the updates fellas!!
75g of h4895 +rem405 is a POPGUN load... I est 1800fps, no kiddding!!

Anneal the cases, and go 80gr!

Good laird, you two are killing me that I am not there to spank the baby, too!!

Cheers, BLoody well done yourselves!

OK

Fired off another 3 loads tonite, still looking for a good fireforming load

I didn't have time to do a full anneal on the three 375 RUM cases i used today, so I upped the load from Jeffe's suggested 80g to 82g to make sure it worked

82g of 2206h (H4895) & rem405 projectile

Worked fine, shoulders and Case taper blew out correctly this time, all good, now we just have to get a few of theses cases fired off

Recoil - I'm not really concerned ......yet

regards
S&F

Out to Cons place this morning

Fireformed a bit more brass and had a chance to load up some 500g woodleigh roundnoses

We did some quick sums and thought a safe but strong load would be about 82g of 2206H (USA - H4895), and seated the big fat woodleigh in, well the case still had heaps of room for another 3 or 4 more grains of powder but we didn't want to push it

We shot them over the bonnet of my Ute, recoil was stiff but not super strong you, could start to feel the rifle torque(twist), measured velocity over the chrony 20 feet infront of muzzle was about 2230 - 2235fps, primers were still rounded on the shoulders, cases extracted easily, yep...... I don't think it's unrealistic to think we can get 2400fps with the big 500g woodleigh out of this case and a 24 inch barrel, I wonder how our 1:15 twist will effect ballistics

Next we will start upping the loads to get to a maximum safe level, I'm guessing about 85 grains ...maybe 86 but thats for another day, we might also try "BM2" (USA BENCHMARK)powder it's finer and will have a better load density. It has a burn rate a bit quicker than 2206H (H4895)

Funny you know......... I'm more worried the stock will hold together than the recoil, so all my handy work is paying off, my gun has fired about 15 rounds so far and is fine




Here's a quick picture of the 458 AccRel and a custom made 405g projectile we are trying out, these ones were sent to us to test, they give a good balance of flater trajectory and weight, should be great on soft skinned animals, it's flanked by the 308 Win on it's right

regards
S&F

Isn't that AWESOME? 2235 and round primers, and from my "not favorite"" powder for the ARs...

Joe, becareful with the toe of the stock,... You don't want it to hit ANYTHING, especially not braced.. .this can crack big bore stocks.

the 400gr looks like some of the experiments the bulletmakers are doing with reforming the 405 rem... big blue point, which will open up FAST ..

I have to say, WOW.. looking at your pictures of this, i am having an odd "Remove" .. in that i see this case, and seeing some other folks messing with it, i am like "wow, that's a cool case"... then i remember it might sound arrogant, as I invented it... then i go.. but it still looks COOL!!!

I've got 14 twist in mine, so 15 ought not to do a thing different, that can be measured without lab gear

jeffe

Just returned from some load testing

Here a pic of 3 loaded 458AccRel cases 405g Experimental projectiles and on the right 3 loaded 416 Taylor cases with 340g woodleighs, I used the Taylor today to loosen up the shoulder a bit before I fired the AccRel


Here's the results:

405g Projectile (experimental)
85g Benchmark (BM2)
Av Velocity - 2461fps

405g projectile (experimental)
86g Benchmark (BM2)
Av Velocity - 2506fps

No pressure signs, primers are not out of shape and still have round edges, no case expansion, recoil - snappy, shoulder OK, but neck bit sore,

The case is only about 85% full, but BENCHMARK (BM2) is a fine powder, and a quick burner, I wonder how much further I can push it ??????

Might try 87g 2moro

regards
S&F

Who needs a 416Taylor, 416Ruger or 416Remington given those numbers!!
Cheers...
Con

Truely wicked!!!
thank mates

I have been out this morning to test some more loads

I'm not going to bullcrap, the 2nd last shot hurt me, not the eye......sorry Con , but the sling stud on the fore end took a bit of skin off my finger, thats it..... I'll be ordering some barrel band sling studs from Brownells next week, and unscrew the one out of the stock

These loads today really brought out the evil side in the 458 AccRel, recoil was pretty heavy, threshold level, especially leaning over the bonnet of my 4x4 Toyota Hilux

Primers are a bit flatter but don't show alarming pressure, I haven't micro'd the heads yet to check for expansion, but they look OK, bolt lift and extraction still fine, bolt lift is stiffer out of my 300 WSM,

The sucker.....the case still had plenty of room, the powder level is a good 1/8 inch below the shoulder, man! this Benchrest powder is so fine it loads very dense, I don't think I would use it on projectiles heavier than 400-405g, it's too quick

Might try (ADI 2208) VARGET on the heavier stuff

OK here's the results

405g projectile
87g ADI - Benchmark 2
Av Velocity - 2542 f/s
K.Energy - 5813 ft lbs


405g projectile
88g ADI - Benchmark 2
Av Velocity - 2556 f/s
K.Energy - 5878 ft lbs

I think I can get this combination over 2600 F/S .......but I don't know if it's worth it. I'd class this as a near MAX LOAD, even though the case is capable of holding about 93 grains before it gets compressed.

Any of you guys in the US with the right equipment and more experience can keep testing it ? I'd like to know what 90g of Hodgdens BENCHREST does behind the 400g Woodleigh, any of you guys willing to try it ? I recon you can get a 400g doing very close to 2650 - 2700fps

Get yourselves a bottle of Hodgdens BENCHREST it's exactly the same powder and very good in this case for the lighter stuff

regards
S&F

S&F,
The slower powders might be a safer bet ... I'd be careful running BM2 much higher particularly as it's the cooler months here! Our ambient temperatures are around 17deg C at the moment. I still think AR2206H will be a better bet, likewise AR2208 with the 500gr ... I'm just waiting for you to finish up with the dies so I can compress some RL15 behind a 500gr Woodleigh!!
Cheers...
Con

I've been extremely cautious with the .458 AR ... my warmest load for the 425 gr Rhino has been 85.0 gr of H335. Last velocities were in the 2375 fps range for a paultry 5327 lb-ft of energy. Honestly, there are no pressure indications and I think faster with safety is easily possible. (I don't think its likely to be needed for plains game ... and that's what this bullet should be really good for!)

H335 appears to be slightly slower than Benchmark 2 in burn rate tables. Given the lighter bullet your running I suspect your 88 gr load is still safe ... but I'd redo the workup when it is HOT outside just to be sure.

Obviously, the more energy a cartridge makes the harder a given rifle kicks. I strongly suspect the issue with the .458 AR is not how much energy it is capable of ... it will be how much do you want to be beat up by the rifle. So far my take on this chambering is that it is extremely capable and can be loaded to be serviceable for any game you want to shoot with it ... from plains game to the most dangerous animals on the planet. That's a very high calling and the designers (Jeffe and Paul) deserve to take a bow for a job very well done!

Con,
mate, you CAN just neck size your AR cases, and cobble dies for seating...

Mike,
THANKS!!! Now, if we can finish the brass, we can call it finished.

The AR rounds have all exceeded the design specifications .. I am very pleased with them, and seeing you guys(all of you) and your fun wiht them, well, it is just awesome.

These cases have a couple cool things going for them, and not the least being mechcanical advantage of the shoulder, and being very efficent ..

H335 has been a dear friend in all of these, and the 550 express as well.. it is just the perfect medium for caliber (underbore, but not too much) powder.

You can get 2400FPS with a 500gr bullet, .458 or .475.. sure can.. but loading it to 2250 in a 10# TOTAL rifle, scope and sling, makes a much better hunting rig... and it will shoot clean through nearly anything....

We are having a ball with them here loading 400gr to 2400, doesn't matter which caliber, and taking game and making great paper groups as well...

I am VERY pleased with them, but only after being a SERIOUS critic of them first.

jeffe

Second run of 500 AR dies are now work in progress...

There are 5 sets avialable, $100+shipping each

ALL 12 originals will get longer tapered expanders

Headstamped brass
Will be an item on www.custombrassandbullets.com as soon as we can get final numbers from Pete at Qual Cart!

jeffe

there are 5 sets of 500 AR dies to be avaialble in aabout 2-3 weeks.
jeffe

jeffe,
As your aware, I have contacted Lonnie at Hornady regarding a custom set of 458AR dies. Quoted price is US$120 plus $76 if you want a file trim/forming die ... which I don't personally think is necessary although it would make trimming easier!!

I just need to get myself organised and send x3 fired cases plus get Dave Manson to email them a reamer spec drawing, which I'll do in the coming week or two.

If anyone is interested in some 458AR dies, it might pay to contact Hornady.
Cheers...
Con

Con, I'll send Lonnie a bunch of cases for ya!
Dave can send reamer and cart spec.. and we are golden!
jeffe

500 AccRel is not far away

I recieved my PACNOR chambered barrel yesterday along with Jeffe's Dies, a trimmer and a head space gauge.....good die boxes Jeffe

Thanx
Jeffe

Now I just have to find a gunsmith that can thread the barrel, headspace, open the bolt face, and add 2nd recoil lug

Here's a PIC Jeffe, they got here safe


regards
S&F

YEEEEHAAAA!!!!!!
you are going to LOVE IT

The guys have been asking about Hornady custom Dies... I just ordered some new RUM cases, so i can make fresh cases... these cases last a LONG time

I will send them 3 each of the 416, 458, and 470 ... if you want a set of the "forties" from Hornady, Please call/email Lonnie and tell them

4XX AR, you supply either 16, 58, or 70

jeffe

Do you still have my address for the dies?
I also found the MO for the Mercury Reducer if you want to send all at once.
Frank

LOL, Hey Frank .. You had asked me to hold them together for you ... want me to send them along?

jeffe

jeffe,
Make sure to drop a post a few days after you send Hornady the cases ... once that's done I'll email Lonnie to proceed with my 458AR die set. Many thanks again for your work.

Now I need to find a damn C/M Ruger donor action for my 500AR and they've seemingly dried up!!
Cheers...
Con

Just sent Lonnie a heads up that I am going to be sending cases...

and

Asked Dara, at Manson, to send reamer prints.

jeffe

I just got off the phone with Lonnie --
I am going to send cases as soon as possible.
He has drawings for them all

jeffe

Jeff,

This probably doesn't need to be said but I hope you told them this is a cartridge YOU developed and as such you have the rights to any mass marketing, commercialization, and development. It seems lately that hornady has taken/pushed quite a few wildcat ideas into the mainstream. Just my thoughts. Not trying to be a jerk about it.

Peyton,
appreciate you thinking about me! I know steve, and mitch.. and lonnie... we've talked these for 2 years!!
jeffe

Jeffe

I'm almost inclined to think the next step to a commercial release of the AR cartridge is to get somebody like HORNADY to make the dies

IMO As long as you Jeffe gets the credit, a commercial run of 458 AR (AccRel) thru hornady would be sensational


regards
S&F

jeffe,
Just emailed Lonnie to start the process of ordering myself a die set once he has all required info.

S&F,
You after a set as well for your uncle or yourself? Maybe we can ask to have them stamped 458AccRel?
Cheers...
Con