Hey Con,
The coast is clear from this end to get the reamer!

well, the hornady 416 rigby brass is now pushed back at least one more week.

and due to Con and company, the 458 AR is headed down under

Is it true the bullets spin the opposite way down under

Jeffe,

I know you have probably already thought of this one but what about your 500ar necked down to 458 and 470. You could easily reach 2400 with 500gr. I imagine it would be similar to a 460a2 in capacity except you would be rid of that sily belt?

Ptaylor...the easy route...neck the 338 lapua up and trim to 2.65" and you get this 458 boom stick.

Pic below left to right are as follows 458 B.S. 2.5", 458 B.S. 2.65" and 458-404 2.65" unimproved

The 458 boomer in a light std length ruger ought to shake some fillings lose.

If you need more velocity than the 458 AR you need to go bigger thus the 500 AR. the 500 AR is 500 Perfection

The advantage of the 458 boomer is to do 2300 or 2400 at lower preasure. over 2400 is not needed jmho.

Peyton
i had thought of that, but the brass is so big around and tough to get feeding in "standard" actions.. that i left if for the .510 bullets...

the 470 version is the "Trollbane',.. so named before i figured out that nothing shoulder fired could penetrate a troll's skull!!

necked to 45, it's the 450 dakota.

and not as big as the 470 mbogo, but with $3-4 brass

in other words, yeah, you could, but i already made rounds that go past "human" skills to shoot in smaller and CHEAPER and easier cases..

there's some room left there, but the thing is, getting those .040 larger cases to feed for a "puny" .4xx round aint worth it to me.

also, you wind up giving up a full round with those rigby cases..

i think the rum-based cases offer all you need in terms of capacity.. heck, if there was enough to headspace off, i would have done the .510 on them, but there's not.


jeffe

boom - pm sent

Jeffe

Hi, my first post, Con's mate in Australia, I Ordered the dies form CH4D last night, they will be shipped off today, Con and I will start expanding brass.

We don't have any 375 RUM practically doesn't exist over here in Australia, but Con has a bucket load of 300 RUM, Con has expanded the case out to 416 without a hitch, I have it infront of me, looks OK but needs trimming, I wonder how it will go for another 40 thou ?

We did settle on the 458 purely because of the wider selection of projectiles in this calibre over here, neither of us want the 416, I have the Taylor, Con has the rigby.

Both of us were ready to jump on the 470 AR but projectile choice is very limited

Got a couple of Ruger actions ready to go, next step is the reamer, Masons has confirmed you have OK'd them coming over, so we need to find a GSmith over here that wants the job and what type of pilot set up he wants on the reamer.

Cons doing a bit of homework on this now

We'll keep you guys informed, but doing my sums and time involved for smithing, I can't see a finished rifle over here until Christmas maybe new year

regards
Short&Fat

Short&Fat,

Have you tried getting 375 RUMs from Huntingtons. They are spot on with export license requirements etc and great to deal with. A mate of mine a few months ago got a full spread of 338 Northfork bullets through Huntingtons for his 338/378. Huntingtons bought the bullets of Northfork for him.

Mike

welcome short and fat

I am guessing you like your carts or your women that way

All the luck with the mighty 458 AR.

When I get down under I will try to bring my 470 AR for you blokes to try.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Peyton
i had thought of that, but the brass is so big around and tough to get feeding in "standard" actions.. that i left if for the .510 bullets...

the 470 version is the "Trollbane',.. so named before i figured out that nothing shoulder fired could penetrate a troll's skull!!

necked to 45, it's the 450 dakota.

and not as big as the 470 mbogo, but with $3-4 brass

in other words, yeah, you could, but i already made rounds that go past "human" skills to shoot in smaller and CHEAPER and easier cases..

there's some room left there, but the thing is, getting those .040 larger cases to feed for a "puny" .4xx round aint worth it to me.

also, you wind up giving up a full round with those rigby cases..

i think the rum-based cases offer all you need in terms of capacity.. heck, if there was enough to headspace off, i would have done the .510 on them, but there's not.
jeffe

Jeffe, the 458ar is plenty for me I'm always looking out for you guys though I was shooting my 458ar this weekend. 405gr remys at a chronoed 2015fps and that was plenty for me for the time being.

Short&Fat
Howdy and welcome!! I haven't tried 399 rum brass, but there should be no issue if you expand them out to .375 or .416, run them through the dies WITHOUT the expander, and then fireform... anneal the necks first. I have not lost any 375 rums during fireforming, so it will be interesting to hear if the 300s are any different, though i might pick up a couple once fired here and try myself.

you want to run them through the sizer, and have them just BARELY let the bolt close when you are fireforming, and then bang... count to 5, and open the bolt,... the count to 5 lets the brass cool and settle.. calal it dwell time.. might be totally mythical, but i do it

Glad you are bringing the AR down under!!

Check with PC for a gunsmith that will take on this kind of job and do it well. he's built a couple boomers and is a great guy

Peyton
You still got the ruger pad on there? OUCH.. what was your powder and load?
jeffe

jeffe,
I'm down in Melbourne doing the "leg-work" for S&F ... catching up with Bob deVries today to discuss building the rifles and get quotes, plus will chase up x50 375RUM cases if I can locate them and looking for a Ruger donor action!! I think Bob will be our man ... any 'smith that can make a 500Jeffery feed reliably in an M98 (built a few!) and a 50/110 in a Winchester lever (PC nearly killed him with that one!!) will do the 458AR rechambering/feeding with one hand tied behind his back, his lathe pulled apart and one eye shut!!
Caught up with Bruce Bertram yesterday regarding 416Rigby basic brass and the 500AR. No ... I wont be building one, but thought I'd just check into it ... cause nobody should ever say "never". Besides ... the 416Rigby brass sits so nicely in a Ruger action and will even sit staggered He reckons he can make 416Rigby basic brass but he's unsure whether it'll have the extractor groove cut ... I'm not entirely sure why that is?? Being based on an existing case head, doesn't reckon it'll be very expensive to make a run of it ... note I didn't ask prices. He was adament it wont headspace ... but reconsidered when I mentioned it has more shoulder than his 10.75 brass. Might be worth exploring through his importer into the States (ask for his 416Rigby brass "seconds", they're mostly discoloured a bit with case mouth dents and there's a 40L bucket of it out back ) ... and he still has cheap 50cal jacketed projectiles. Mind you, PC has run the Bertram 416Rigby brass and reckons it aint anywhere near the quality of the Norma stuff.

On another note ... the 416Rigby brass sits so comfortably in my Ruger 350RemMag magazine ... was there any thought given to a short action .50 with the brass at a touch over 2"?
Cheers...
Con

Con,
thanks for reminding Bruce of the 10,75x68... .028 total headspace ***less clearance**** at 28deg


<headspace rant on>
of course, nevermind that the 458win and lott, and the capstick have .022 total headspace (.532 belt-.510 body) ...

makes the
500AR .043 headspace 20 deg
470AR .038 headspace 36.5 deg
458AR .052 headspace 36.5 deg
416AR .092 headspace 36.5 deg
seem pretty reasonable.

"Come on, jeffe, you know you are just playing games, as yours are at an angle" ... yeah.. the 404 has .070 at EIGHT degs (more or less).... which means, if one could "crush creating excessive headspace" then every 404 in the world would do so.... as 8deg is alot easier to get to "bend" than 20+

Simply put, if a belt can headspace, and a 45ACP can headspace (.018 -in automatice weapons, no less) why can't the same ammount OR MORE headspace?

Answer? It can headspace very well, thank you, I have done it.
<headspace rant off>

<Sigh>
Okay, on his rigby, the 500ar is just a shortened and improved rigby, extractor groove remains the same. But, I would want to get his new and improved brass, not the old stuff. If Bruce rejected it, i would be SCARED to put a 50K load into it. Softer than my wife's heart, is a nice way to say it. His new stuff is supposed to be better.

How about, though, 50 cal blemished projecticles? now a 40L barrel of those I would be all hot and bothered about!

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
How about, though, 50 cal blemished projecticles? now a 40L barrel of those I would be all hot and bothered about!
jeffe

jeffe,
Sorry mate ... no 40L barrel of those. As you walk in the factory its the 44 GALLON drum on the left hand side that contains those. He gave me one as a suitable "rock buster" for a 500AR ... I think you guys are better off on the 50BMG projectiles as I thing the BMG stuff goes at closer to AUD$2 each retail. But the hunting .50cal cup and core "nothing special" projectiles at AUD$88 per 100 are a bargain!!!

I'm only mentioning the headspace thing to highlight that despite cartridges like the 10.75 and 400Whelen being proven performers (with obvious care) ... headspace remains a psychological barrier thrown up to put cartidges like the 500AR down. Perception is reality ... never mind your doing it and it bloody works!!!

I might pop back through on the way home as I'm kind of interested in trying his 416Rigby "seconds" against the Hornady 416Rigby brass I have from the factory ammunition.
Cheers...
Con

500AR

Well, to further proove bumblebees can't fly, i went over to the studio and deprimed the once fired, and die formed and trimmed, then resized them all.
10 pieces for fireforming cast loads, and to get on paper/not shoot the chrono

15 pieces to QUICKLY play with the 535, 570, and 600gr woodlieghs .. just to figure out where the starting point really is.

as soon as my lyman 57 shows up... well, maybe not as soon, as i will be out of pocket saturday..

anyway, i'll load up some 500AR and 458ARs for load work this weekend.
jeffe

and 470's

the 500AR weighs 9#12oz perdactly, limbsaver, slightly nose heavy, no brake

recoil
535s at 2400 about 97ft-lbs
570s at 2200 about 94
600s at 2150 about 94

a 458lott at the same weight is about 80ft-lbs

its blued, bedded, and got a second coat of finish on after the mud coat.

in other words, someone has to shoot the @#@$ thing, and 12oz (a merc recoil tube) only takes off 3-4# of recoil..

pleasant? well, 20# less than my 500 jeffe, and it's okay to shoot..

and if anyone wants to make it dance, 2400fps with a 600gr bullet (it MIGHT can go that, at least 2300), the recoil goes to 120ft-lbs...
yeah, i'll pass on that.

anyway, the jug busting load will be 600gr gc casts at 1800, or about 70ft-lb, but VERY slow..

oi, this will be FUN

Work in progress -- on side is turned too much, which makes it look THICK

jeffe, looking forward to pulling the trigger on it. With a round in the chamber, of course, an more in the mag.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the 500AR weighs 9#12oz perdactly, limbsaver, slightly nose heavy, no brake

recoil
535s at 2400 about 97ft-lbs
570s at 2200 about 94
600s at 2150 about 94

jeffe,
Have those numbers (velocity) been realised or are you speculating?
Cheers...
Con

Keith, sometime soon.

Con, this is speculation based on CONSERVATIVE estimates off the results of the 550 express, which this is nearly the same animal, necked to .510 and the belt removed.

With no issues at all, i can make a 700 gr bullet go 2150 at .550. well, one issue.. recoil.

and I've made 665gr .550 go 2300
, so 2300 with a .510 is easily doable, at the same pressure..and since the 500 AR has some bottleneck, faster possible.

BUT, 2150 is both lower pressure and lower recoil
jeffe

Jeffe

reading the figures on the 500AR, was like watching a man get kicked in the balls, I got a shiver thinking about it

Just a quick note to you re the 458 AR rebuilds by Con and myself down under

The dies should arrive next week, we'll be ordering the reamer and gauges as well, probably tonite if I get the chance

Obviuosly you and the guys already have a little load development data on the 458 AR, would you be willing to share that with us as the time approaches, Would it be safe to start with Lott reloading data

Also not sure on stock work for these new rifles, Both Con and myself have sourced Ruger M77 2 actions. Have looked at the cost of gettin new stocks, kickpads, recoil support bolts, inletted and bedding and we are very tempted to get away from walnut and go with a synthetic, full alluminum block action, primarily for it's strength an reliability, it won't look classic but will be very practical

best regards
S&F

S&F,
Well, retrofitting into the ruger stock is always an option. Pics below. the 470 went into a custom stock, but Franks and Peytons are still in ruger stocks, as far as I know. The 470 didn't even get cross bolts, just a recoil lug, wrist pin, and bedded.

However, stocks are a profoundly personal choice and should be that way. My feedback will be that synthetic stocks tend to be light! now, a "woodtech" stock with an aluminum pillar would make me THINK about a plastic fantastic

We should have a good catalog of load data built up for you over the next 3 months

jeffe

jeffe,
What S&F forgot to mention is that he's impatient to be up and shooting. I sorted him out though ... told him we can build two "ugly" 458AR's on the quick and cheap and be up and hunting next deer season ... and two custom's on the slow later on. I think he bought it , as have I!
My first looks like it may be a stainless in Ruger laminate stock with internal crossbolts ... just need to fork out the extra $150 for the stainless barrel. Otherwise a plastic fantastic it may very well be!! Regarding load data ... I've experience with 45/70, 458WinMag and 458Lott. I just need to know whether the 458AR likes faster or slower powders than Hodgdon's H4895 and I'll be away!
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
jeffe,
What S&F forgot to mention is that he's impatient to be up and shooting. I sorted him out though ... told him we can build two "ugly" 458AR's on the quick and cheap and be up and hunting next deer season ... and two custom's on the slow later on. I think he bought it , as have I!
My first looks like it may be a stainless in Ruger laminate stock with internal crossbolts ... just need to fork out the extra $150 for the stainless barrel. Otherwise a plastic fantastic it may very well be!! Regarding load data ... I've experience with 45/70, 458WinMag and 458Lott. I just need to know whether the 458AR likes faster or slower powders than Hodgdon's H4895 and I'll be away!
Cheers...
Con

My dona rifle unfortunately is one of those ugly ruger flat plastic boat paddle stocks in 300 win mag and I ain't building a 458 AR into one of those things....not a chance.

There is a fella on US Ebay selling a ruger 458 wooden stock, looks OK but is the tang safety model.

Unless I can get a classic walnut with cross bolts and quality recoil pad, I'm thinking full alluminium bedding block in either HS precision or Hogue, big price difference, depends if I use a C/M barrel or a stainless. If Boyds get to sort out their international shipping problems I might even try a beafed up laminate myself

Con I think if I we build another AR it will be another member of the family, the 500 AR definately sounds like the gun to hand over to the mother-in-law for a shot

Fellas
the boyds JRS classic, lam, plus crossbolts and wrist pin was the mule stock (is?) for the 550 express and then my first 458 AR.. pretty it aint, hell for stout it is!

now, i gotta tell ya... if you think the 500AR is a kick in the sack, you don't wnat a THING to do with the 550s LOL


Well, we'll see if we can get the 500 AR and some neato loads for the 458 AR so i can maybe shoot them over them chrono

jeffe

I just loaded up 2.25 dozen (27 sounds lame) 500 ARs..
http://ammoguide.com/?catid=607
all woodleighs
5 535s
5 570s
6 600s
11 - 610gr casts from Paul H...

quickload says, right at 50 to 54k PSI and 2375 for the lights, and 2175 for the heavies, and about 1800 for the casts.

I'll Chrono with Hogkiller this weekend...

THEN I am loading up some super duper special 458 AR loads, for the 2007 STC hunt...
http://ammoguide.com/?catid=605

El Jeffe...

the neck measurement says .375 at ammoguide still.

Have fun this weekend!

****All load data appears safe in the guns listed, you are advised to take all safety precautions on internet load data****

Just got back from Hogkiller's place...
I'll put the loaddata on ammoguide, too.
458 AR - 23" barrel
experimental bullets, 80gr i4895
302 - 3.30" oal, 2277fps
320 - 3.30" oal, 2279fps

500gr Hornady RN (old style)
3.35 OAL on all.
75gr i4895 - 2053fps
77gr i4895 - 2099fps
79gr i4895 - 2136fpd

405 REm, 3.28, 77gr i4895, 2020fps

500 AR - 24" barrel, 3.4 OAL except 700gr bullets
Targets are 535gr at 2350, 570 at 2200, and 600 at 2150

cast bullets 610gr
88gr WC844 2177FPS

Woodliegh 600gr PP
88gr i4895 2027fps
88gr wc844 2079fps
92gr i4895 2075 fps

woodleigh 570gr SP
90gr i4895 2038fps
90gr wc844 2137fps

woodleigh 535gr SP
95gr i4895 2292fps
95gr wc844 2304FPS (VERY CONSISTENT)

MILSURP 700gr, 4.128 OAL
83gr i4895 - 1825fps


The pressures, except on the 700grs, appeared to be pretty darn mild, IN MY GUNS, and wickedly accurate.

Basically I am 50-75FPS away from my goals on the 500 AR

and the rifle is 9#12oz.

jeffe

Well, the 500AR gets a big from me.

To me, it will be best suitted in an 11 lb rifle. 9 lbs 12 oz, is just a bit too light for me.

SafariKid will love it in a 5 1/2 package.

Keith

Great work El Jeffe

them starting loads look great and happy birthday to the 500 AR

Jeffe,
That 458AR data ... can you explain it? What's 302 and 330 relate to??

Given case capacity for the 458AR ... I'm guessing they're mild loads as they appear in the "hot" 458WM range. A 500gr at 2150fps and mild pressures ain't a bad place to be. Looking good!! One quastion ... are projectiles being seated to the cannelure in the commercial projectiles used with the 458AR?

Dare someone say ... "Now for the 577AR!"
Cheers...
Con

con.
the 302 and 320 gr are experimental bullets, that i was doing some load dev for a friend

heh, i designed ALL the AR rounds to hit the groove, but the woodie on the 470 comes a bit shorter..

we already have the 550 express

the 2150s are just to share the data... as there is still 200+ fps in them...

well, i loaded up some 500AR/600gr and 458AR/500gr with 748 and h335 ...
i should hit 2225 and 2350, respectivily...

we'll see tomorrow

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
well, i loaded up some 500AR/600gr and 458AR/500gr with 748 and h335 ...
i should hit 2225 and 2350, respectivily...

we'll see tomorrow

Its tomorrow

ha! yeah, boomie, it is

load safe in my guns, looked fine, etc etc, standard warning on using ANY loads you get off the internet

all vels are ave of group, at 14ft, chronograghed. 88deg F, 90%humidity

ALL pressure signs look GREAT ... I will be pushing these a little more, just to "find out"
Primers still look great...

remember, the target for the 500ar with 600gr bullets is 2150... we CLOBBER that

500 AR - 600gr woodleighs, 3.4" oal, 24" barrel

h335
90gr 1921fps
92gr 2134fps Est 92.5 at 2175 is THE 600gr load
93gr 2216fps
95gr 2240fps
96gr 2318fps

win748
92gr 1865fps
94gr 2091fps
96gr 2149fps ..again target load

458 AR 500gr hornady SP, 3.35OAL, 23" barrel

h335
77gr 2185fps
79gr 2211fps
81gr 2281fps
82gr 2302fps

win748
78gr 2026fps
80gr 2115fps
81gr 2152fps
82gr 2184fps

Perhaps the 748 isn't my powder of choice, however, all loads APPREARED to be perfectly reasonable, and I will start from here and go forward...

that being said, the 458 AR at 2300 is CERTAINLY tops for most folks, and at 2200, its mild pressure. the loads on the h335 in the 500AR and all loads on the 458 AR had strikingly small SD (7 or LESS)

Awesome!

500 AR 600@ 2,300!

major success!

Great data! What kinda primers are you using in the .458 AR?

How was the accuracy of the .458 loads with the small SD's?

Thanks for publishing the data!

Mike,
fed215s... in everything.

remember, this is REFERENCE not "reloading" data!!
i was shooting at 25 yards, and did nothing but eat out a 50cent piece hole for the whole thing, 2 different calibers, 2 different powders, and a zillion shots...

i am also publishing this on ammoguide.com

i need to get a box of woodleigh 400gr PPs and try them... at 2300 they would recoil lightly and are a TOUGH bullet.

I'll go ahead and run out the h335 until i get pressure signs .. i have exceed 2400FPS with the hornadys before!!

man, now that I know the 500 AR WILL go way in the hell past 2150, i am still going to load down to that...
it will be now
standard length
600gr bullet
2150fps
least amount of powder burnt to get there
MILD pressure
tolerable recoil... my 500JEffe requries 30-35 more grains of powder to do the same thing.