Thanks RIP... When you get the water capacity I'll update my earlier post so that it covers both fire-formed and FLR'ed capacities.

RE: Lapua and Rigby rim thickness and extractor groove width/angle specifications...
Steve, my gunsmith, gave me the option to modify my two extractors to work with both specifications but I opted to go only with the Lapua specs. Rim and case body-head diameter specifications are identical for both cases.

Resized 49-10 brass that is 2.656" average length after second full power load and second resizing:

129.9 grains water gross/overflow water capacity

This is within one drop of the concave to convex meniscus change.
I do not care to be any fussier than that.

Looks like I shall get another firing before I have to trim.
At least 3 firings between trimmings.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Resized 49-10 brass that is 2.656" average length after second full power load and second resizing:

129.9 grains water gross/overflow water capacity

This is within one drop of the concave to convex meniscus change.
I do not care to be any fussier than that.

Looks like I shall get another firing before I have to trim.
At least 3 firings between trimmings.

Thanks RIP...I've updated the earlier post.

Ok...so your 1st trim length after fire forming was 2.647" and after two full powder loads and a second FLR resizings you have a 2.656" length...a case length growth of 0.009" which equals 0.0045" after each full load firing. So it appears that case trimming is required after every 4th full power loading...though it's actually every 4.888 full powder loadings.

RIP is the neck wall thickness staying at 0.0135" per side, or 0.027" gross, or is it beginning to thin out?

Jim,
Neck wall thickness seems to be about .0135" at midpoint of neck: midway between neck-1 (at shoulder) and neck-2 (at case mouth).

However it is as thick as .0170" at neck-1,
and as thin as .0100" at neck-2.

Overall: Excellent.
It all works well, no inside-neck reaming, no outside-neck turning required.
All well within the tolerances of commercial brass, and Manson chamber reamer, and Hornady Custom dies.

Overall brass movement/growth is slight and leads to thinning at the case mouth, to make trimming after each third or fourth firing easier.

I shall say it again: There can be no better "Five Hundred" or "Fifty" than the 12.7x68mmM/49-10.

Since you have revived this old thread, I feel compelled to copy new additions to 49-10 knowledge to the more recent 49-10 thred highlighting the wonderful CEB bullet accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jim,
Neck wall thickness seems to be about .0135" at midpoint of neck: midway between neck-1 (at shoulder) and neck-2 (at case mouth).

However it is as thick as .0170" at neck-1,
and as thin as .0100" at neck-2.

Overall: Excellent.
It all works well, no inside-neck reaming, no outside-neck turning required.
All well within the tolerances of commercial brass, and Manson chamber reamer, and Hornady Custom dies.

Overall brass movement/growth is slight and leads to thinning at the case mouth, to make trimming after each third or fourth firing easier.

I shall say it again: There can be no better "Five Hundred" or "Fifty" than the 12.7x68mmM/49-10.

Since you have revived the older 49-10 thread, I feel compelled to copy new additions to 49-10 knowledge to this more recent 49-10 thread highlighting the wonderful CEB bullet accuracy.

RIP,

This is a good thing...other than a slightly shorter case length and case capacity your fire formed case neck thickness measurements closely track with the hydraulic case forming measurements. At least I'll have the option of how to create my 1st loaded cases for full fire forming...I can load as 338 Lapua Mag and follow your process or I can hydraulic form them, load with 500gr Hornady XTP bullets and fire form. Nice to have the option.

Hey I understand about the two threads...but thought the new readers might appreciate knowing the wealth of information contained in the original thread. I've not figured out how to copy stuff while on my iPad, but will start posting on both threads so nothing is lost once I'm on my PC.

quote:

I shall say it again: There can be no better "Five Hundred" or "Fifty" than the 12.7x68mmM/49-10.

Well Hell--I happen to have 5 different .500 caliber cartridges, and I think they are pretty damned spiffy myself!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

I shall say it again: There can be no better "Five Hundred" or "Fifty" than the 12.7x68mmM/49-10.

Well Hell--I happen to have 5 different .500 caliber cartridges, and I think they are pretty damned spiffy myself!

And all pale in the shadow of the 49-10, which out-kaboodles even the mighty .500 MDM.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

I shall say it again: There can be no better "Five Hundred" or "Fifty" than the 12.7x68mmM/49-10.

Well Hell--I happen to have 5 different .500 caliber cartridges, and I think they are pretty damned spiffy myself!

And all pale in the shadow of the 49-10, which out-kaboodles even the mighty .500 MDM.

I will only add to this particular conversation with this comment…”I have brass for a single cartridge from a single manufacturer that has a FLR overflow water capacity of 108.026grs, 123.458grs, and 129.9grs! I'd say that's pretty versatile single cartridge!

Actually I have a second comment. I believe this is a pretty well rounded six rifle cartridge group. And I actually have the finish reamer, gauges, and reloading dies for an additional two .500 caliber rifle cartridges! Heck, the .500 caliber is a far more rounded cartridge line than the .510 caliber rifle cartridge group and it didn’t take 100+ years to get there either!!! Note Added: I should say here that I'm discussing normal .510 caliber carry rifles that weigh under 13 pounds carry weight.

quote:

And all pale in the shadow of the 49-10, which out-kaboodles even the mighty .500 MDM. Cool

Oh! You should have made me aware you were talking about "Kaboodling", I had no idea that's what you meant! Of course it will "Out Kaboodle" my .500s, it's bigger-it should out kaboodle them, and the platform is bigger too. You can always make a bigger "kaboodler", but bigger "kaboodlers" come with consequences attached! LOL.........................




Let's see--KUR

and now maybe just KK

King Kaboodler!



RIP, you are a rip!

Good Show!

Michael

Oh no, everything I have used so far fits in a Winchester M70.
If I wished to bob the barrel, it would be the same platform as the .500 MDM.
The whole kit and kaboodle!

Can't argue with the Platform, nothing better than that. Now you need to whack about 6 inches off that barrel and get it down to fighting weight! LOL..........


Michael

Oh no! I could never do that!
(Involuntarily crossing legs and placing hands over crotch.)
My Winchester M70 in 49-10 must keep with the 24" barrel length ...
It loves those 430-grain CEB MTH bullets so well as it is.
I would not dare mess with it!

Shot off the hood of a car in a cow pasture:





Two excellent "longrifles" chambered for 12.7 X 68mm Magnum/49-10 by Rusty McGee, Kentucky Longrifles, of the common .50 cal, modernized:

So it is, this thread has been brought back to life.
To bring it up to date, the 300-yard group of rifle No.2, BRNO, of "49-10" chambering:

The Barnes FXB-cannelured .500/375gr bullet showed a good load with H322 charge of 97.0 grains.
Velocity 2705.3 fps and ES of 32 fps for three shots and 0.585" group: ~1.1 MOA

The CEB load finished up very strong with tip installed.
360-grain(W350), 95.0 grains H4198: 2903.0 fps at 5 yards from the muzzle, with ES of 9 fps for three shots.

This is equivalent to 2920 fps Muzzle Velocity if BC is about .260, according to Doc M's MIB laboratory measurements.

Best 3-shot groups for it that day:
50 yards: 0.606" about 1.2 MOA
100 yards: 0.448" about 0.4 MOA
300 yards: 1.069" about 0.3 MOA



This CEB bullet gets more accurate as range increases:







4th shot at 300-yard target above held "looser" hence flew higher?
Or I "pulled" it, it's a flyer.
5th shot: Used a reticle hold-over with the Leuplod 2.5X-8X scope, so it landed on the top target.
And maybe the breeze was more, drifted right, or I pulled it?
Here the pink streamer is hanging at "45-degrees of wind between lulls."

Or it may have been canting of the reticle by yours truly.

Hey RIP,

Your posting your 100yd, 200yd, 300yd target results with the 360gr Talon Tipped ESP Raptor reminded me..."have you had a chance to shot the 430gr MTH at the same distances?" I quickly ran through both threads and could only find the 50yd target.

Thanks,

Jim,
No.
For the past week I was in Lexington, KY, sitting on my butt 10 hours per day for 6 days straight at the Mariott Resort and Spa, Griffin Gate,
out near where I-75 and I-64 crosses New Town Pike.
Life is rough.
Gotta do what you gotta do.
The luxury of shooting is hard to come by sometimes.
But I am always hopeful.
Until then,
there can be little doubt of the results.
My shoulder will be well rested, though my buttocks have been sorely abused.
I shall be fully recovered soon.

RIP I sure hope those Mariott Resort and Spa chairs were more comfortable than those darn metal chairs I had to suffer through on many of my East coast trips.

Anyway, whenever you can get to it I look forward to the results. And yes, there is little doubt regarding the results. You’re triple blessed…1st with the ability to accurately shoot at distance, 2nd a very accurate rifle(s) to shoot with, and 3rd with extremely accurate bullets! A trifecta that is hard to beat!!!

Jim:
There was some sort of padding on the seat of the folding metal chairs my butt inhabited for 6 days.
Marriott Resort and Spa folding metal chairs.
Started at 8 AM Sunday and ended at 5 PM the next Friday.
Last year those heathens started the conference on Mother's Day!
Must have gotten complaints on that, so they delayed their springtime profaning of the Sabbath by a week this year.
Reckon Saturday is their Sabbath?

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Ok… opened up the laptop for a few mintues and pulled up the following bullet drawing and projected BCs that Dan sent me:



Quick Design said the projected BC on the .500 bullet to be .365-.380 which I suspect to be fairly close.

Thanks again for the work on this bullet.

I will use the conservative estimate of .365 and correct the 2651 fps at 5 yards to MV
and plot the trajectory to 300 yards. Then see how it compares at the range.
It will be a lark to go to the range and just shoot at 100 yards and 300 yards.
Horse shoes, hand grenades and NonCons.

We have two very special "NonCon" bullets from Cutting Edge Bullets for the 12.7x68M/49-10.
360-gr/W350 ESP Raptor ---Plastic-Tipped Boat-Tailed Brass Hexploder/Penetrator--- at 2920 fps MV with BC of .260
430-gr MTH ---Sleek "Seal Band" Hollow Point Boat Tailed Monometal Copper --- at +2650 fps MV with BC of .365

A .500-caliber/430-grain copper CEB MTH is still a NonConventional bullet,
and certainly good enough for cape buffalo, no doubt about it.
Also nice that it can serve double duty for plains game.
The 360gr/W350 worked well on 1-ton eland for Doc M.
Ought to be a good dual purpose bullet too.

Ron,

Thank you but this is truly a group accolade. My only part was to throw some ideas against the wall and Dan produced this fantastic bullet from those ideas… However, Michael’s work at the Lab and your load development and target work in the field have substantiated Dan’s design – as evidenced by your posts on page 7 of this thread, and page 1 of this similar thread:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/2811060471
(I’m beginning to get lost on these multiple threads…)
Anyway, the three of you deserve many many kudos for your efforts. Me…I don’t even have a rifle to shoot them in yet! LOL…

For those who might have interest in the .500 caliber 430gr CEB MTH Y01 Copper Spitzer NonCon…
Drawn from the Big Bore – Terminal Bullet Performance thread:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/192

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Ya'll gonna drive me totally !!!!!!!!!!

I can hardly keep up as it is!

OK, Capo and RIP, pay attention! I received the few over run bullets in your special run of CEB copper pointy things from Dan yesterday. I don't recall how many, 15-20 of them I think, so I gave them a good workout this morning whilst doing some other things, and since you have these in hand I thought you might like some info on them

Good news--They are in my opinion a huge success! You did good!

As you remember from a couple of years ago I was using a 470 Copper HP from Lehigh on the buffalo. Running at 2450 fps or so I was getting shear at less than 50-60 yards, then on out there getting a six bladed bullet from hell anyway. No real downside as I saw it, but the shear produced more reaction and more trauma from the buffalo. So I decided the shearing effect was very good and here we are today with shearing brass bullets!

Now you two want to go back to copper, JHC, can't you just leave well enough alone? HEH HEH....

But, these pointy things you guys had done are doing very well, even way down in velocity. Take a look!

I loaded what I thought would be top end loads to see what was going to happen in both 50 B&M and the 500 MDM.



Of course they are too long for the magazine in the 50 B&M.



Starting out at the higher end velocity in the 50 B&M and working my way down. Even at 2350 fps pressures were only 52672 PSI, so I could easy raise the velocity in the 50 B&M.







Of course you know this, but almost all copper blades stay with the center wound channel, and that is ok and not a bad thing, there is a massive wound channel with these at velocity, and the copper blades assist with that. You don't see any, I got tired of looking for them, as I did brass Carnivores before these and spent half the morning sifting through paper pulp looking for blades! With these I was more interested in just making sure they are opening, and working, and that they are doing very very well! You guys have a good bullet!

Michael

quote:

Those are pretty darn nice looking bullets! Even if I am slightly biased.

quote:

Michael,
Thanks for the tests… Looking at the first photograph at the commencement of the grooving on the bullet above the Seal Tite Band is just about the seating depth that Dan said could be used with this bullet when there is a COAL/magazine length issue (yep with the Seal Tite Band within the case neck). I don’t know if seating the bullet that deep would allow it to function from your magazine or not…might be something to try.

I think these two photographs pretty much say all that needs to be said!





Dan likes copper and he said these bullets would work just fine. If I’ve computed correctly, using a MV of 2355 should equal this impact result at approximately 350yds. So…I’d say, “Dan well done! You hit the performance target right in the X-ring.”

Who said .50 caliber weren't long range hunting calibers!

So bringing this up a little bit… running RIP’s 12.7x68mm Magnum (49-10) loading through QL and QT with Michael’s 1660fps low velocity tip expansion as a floor…indicates that we should be good at 450yds…

And I should mention, at RIP's muzzle velocity the 2144fps impact with full petal shear from Michael's post is the equivalent of a 225yd impact and the 1911fps impact with the single petal remaining is the equivalent of a 333yd impact.

Well done Dan! And yes the .500 caliber is a long range hunting caliber as well as a very deadly ‘up front and personal’ caliber – both when using properly designed cartridges. YES!!!

Jim,
I am agreeable to post on one thread instead of two, if you are.

.500-caliber/430-grain MTH from CEB:
BC = .365:
MV = 2662 fps, 5-yard velocity = 2651 fps
Sight Height 1.50"
Trajectory:
+2.95" high at 100 yards
+1.52" high at 200 yards
-7.03" low at 300 yards
Very close to dead-on at 225 yards.
Retained velocity at 300 yards: 2009 fps
KE at 300 yards: 3852 ft-lbs.

.500-caliber/360-grain/W350 ESP Raptor from CEB:
BC = .260:
MV = 2920 fps, 5-yard velocity = 2903 fps
Sight Height 1.70"
Trajectory:
+2.98" high at 100 yards
+2.47" high at 200 yards
-4.74" low at 300 yards
Very close to dead-on at 245 yards.
Retained velocity at 300 yards: 1993 fps
KE at 300 yards: 3174 ft-lbs.



Not too shabby for either one.

Ron,

Most definately - pick which thread and that's where I'll post.

Jim,
Brought back to life, fully revived now, this thread will do fine.
I will go ahead and add "Bullets" to this title too.
"Cutting Edge Bullets" in a title is sort of like honey is to flies.

Ron, 10-4 on that.

To dress up this thread a bit,
Doc M's field results with the 360-grain/W350-Tipped ESP Raptor from CEB,
delivered by his .500 MDM to eland: Borrowed from "Terminal Bullet Performance" page 230.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Well Boys, no need for worries, I believe I have recovered and I believe I will see a few more sunrises! HEH.......

But I don't think this eland I am getting ready to show you has much hope.

Myself and my PH, video man, and heart/lung holder, Andrew!




Andrew and I thought you might also like this version--





This is the 500 MDM and the 350 ESP Raptor--With the new design tips. On this shot it blew by one side of the heart, as you see below, and completely destroyed the lungs with bullet and blades. There was of course no recovery of bullet which all exited everything shot.














Not much to add, photos tell the story here.

Michael

Consider other possible Terminal ballistics of the .500/430-gr MTH:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

416Tanzan,
Thanks for reminding me of that video, from Saeed's 2010 Expedition to Tanzania, which I was fortunate to accompany.
This frame says it all,
.510-caliber/450-grain GSC HV at 2654 fps MV, hitting buffalo at about 75-80 yards, one shot kill, through the heart:



Copper GSC HV 450-grain/.510-caliber: SD = 0.247 ... 500 Mbogo with 25" barrel, 105 grains Benchmark + filler >>> 2654 fps
Copper CEB MTH 430-grain/.500-caliber: SD = 0.246 ... 12.7x68mm Magnum/49-10 with 24" barrel, 100 grains H322 + no filler >>> 2651 fps

Both at about 2650 fps MV ought to get the job done comfortably on buffalo.

Then there is that Plastic-Tipped-BRASS CEB ESP RAPTOR 350-360-grain/.500-cal at possibly 2900 fps:
Hexploding into a deathstar internally and leaving a +300-grain penetrator.
Eland succumbed readily to one, for Maharishi McCourry.
Maybe buffalo would too?
Terry Wee-wee-land ought to have tried some before he wrote about them in HANDLOADER June 2012, eh?

RIP

I'd say the terminals and externals (ballistics) of two excellent .500-caliber CEB bullets are very promising so far.
And there is more: The heavier NonCon and Solid DG brass bullets
Those are well proven.
I better quit wasting band width on the obvious.

quote:

Copper GSC HV 450-grain/.510-caliber: SD = 0.247 ... 500 Mbogo with 25" barrel, 105 grains Benchmark + filler >>> 2654 fps
Copper CEB MTH 430-grain/.500-caliber: SD = 0.246 ... 12.7x68mm Magnum/49-10 with 24" barrel, 100 grains H322 + no filler >>> 2651 fps

The 430gr .500 CEB MTH should work just as well as the 450gr .510 GSC HV; interesting that their SDs are .246 and .247 respectively.

Jim:

Staycation day again today.
Had the range to myself,
and rifle No.1, M70 Winchewster with 2.5X-8X Leupold in QRW rings and bases, no muzzle brake ... scope bases epoxied to action with JB Weld and 8x40 screws, of course.

430-grain/.500-caliber MTH design by CEB, of your instigation, is only 5" low at 300 yards (or less, no more drop than that),
when sighted 3" high at 100 yards,
and started off at about 2662 fps MV.



100.0 grains of H322 powder.
Temperature 75 degrees F.
Altitude somewhere betweenn 300 and 400 feet.
Relative humidity: Kentucky humid
Wind: Kentucky Windage brisk today, waited between shots for lulls.

That agrees very well with BC of .365 as calculated, maybe better?
Sight height 1.50", 75F, 300ft. alt., 29.53"Hg, 78% RH: +3" at 100 yards, -4.75" at 300 yards ... BC = .???

Note that two of the three bullets went into one hole at 300 yards.
I got excited at that and flinched or held too hard on the third shot, and it went low and to the right. I am right handed and strong of grip.
Still, only about 0.5 MOA for 3 shots at 300 yards,
my fault.
Maybe with a machine rest and indoor range, all these CEB bullets would go into one hole?

Rifle No.1, M70 will be zeroed with the 430-grain MTH.
Rifle No.2, BRNO, will be zeroed with the 360-grain/W350 Raptor.
All the heavier CEB bullets (450 to 500 grains) may fall where they may at 0 to 50 yards.

Now I need to shoot both rifles with all bullet types to see where they land in relation to the primary zero, and fine tune the useful zero.

RIP

If your rifle is really sighted in for 3.0" at 100 yards then your BC is over .500.

Check your 100-yard sight-in. Even at 3.2" it is still a BC of .500.

That is a freight-train of a bullet. It will get her done.

RIP that is excellent shooting! Once again you’ve proven that Dan and CEB produce extremely accurate bullets. And with all the workup that you’ve done, once I receive my rifle all I’ll have to do is find the load sweet spot for my rifle and then go find something to shoot/hunt.

Ok…a correct BC… I played around with two programs and here’s what I came up with:
Bullet
430gr .500 CEB MTH Copper HP Spitzer BT
Variables per RIP:
Sight height 1.50", 75F, 300ft. alt., 29.53"Hg, 78% RH: +3" at 100 yards, -4.75" at 300 yards
Program Results:
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-5 bullet drag profile = 0.450 BC
Necos – QuickTARGET for Win7 – G7 bullet drag profile = 0.426 BC
Program variables for each set to match RIP's data; Yardages were spot-on for both programs!

The JBM program gave me options of G-1 through G-8 bullet drag profiles with the G-5 being the most accurate description for the … Unfortunately the QT program only gives me G1 and G7 bullet drag profiles. And here are the descriptions of each:
• G1 or Ingalls (the most popular)
• G2 (Aberdeen J projectile)
• G5 (short 7.5° boat-tail, 6.19 calibers long tangent ogive)
• G6 (flatbase, 6 calibers long secant ogive)
• G7 (long 7.5° boat-tail, 10 calibers tangent ogive, preferred by some manufacturers for very-low-drag bullets)
• G8 (flatbase, 10 calibers long secant ogive)

So there we go for whatever it’s worth.

And now its 2AM and I’m finally sleepy! Gonna go roost now.

Wow.
A DG bullet, .500" with a BC of .450 ! ! !
Look out eland, look out impala.

We need that for .510", too, preferably something that holds together and produces a mushroom at 2600fps impact and lower,
like the picture in my avatar May 2012:



bullet on left is a full copper mushroom, shot at 110 yards, 2850-2870 fps muzzle, .416 350TSX, and an impact velocity of approximately 2585-2610 fps.
The bullet on the right was an insurance shot from about 20 yards and had an impact velocity of about 2800+ fps. It had a clean, total shear.

In terms of preferences, the Raptor is best, where the petals jump out into a hexgonal web of destruction. Following that, a traditional mushroom still does impressive damage. Finally, a sheared, all-copper or brass slug still provides impressive killing power, though its petals follow along a narrower destructive path of the 'square, flat, meplat'.

Jim and 416Tanzan,
Thanks for the inputs here.
The BC is obviously higher than .365, agreed!

It is humanly impossible for me to be anymore precise on giving you guys data to input for calculations from 2 POI elevations and an MV.

Two chronographs, one close and one long range, are needed!

RIP,

Yes, two chronos are needed to lock in the BC for the 430gr .500 CEB MTH. But you did give 4 critical information points to work with; i.e., muzzle velocity, POA, POI @ 100yds, and POI @ 300yds.

Once I moved from the G1 'catch all' bullet profile into the G5 and G7 'BT Spitzer' bullet profiles - using your 4 information points zeroed into the correct BC for each bullet.

But at least we're getting closer to resolving a BC for this bullet. The G5 is the perfect match for this bullet shape. Unfortunately QL only offers G1 and G7 for bullet profiles...which I guess isn't to bad as that'll cover every bullet shape out there.

So I can live with either G5 0.450 BC or G7 0.426 BC as we should be able to reach very accurate 'what ifs' with either setting.

Tan,

I understand but have to disagree. Give me 1st brass petal shear, 2nd copper petal shear, and 3rd copper folded petals.

You have to remember, even though the sheared copper petals stay close to the wound channel that they just ream the s--t out of everything they encounter - far beyond the damage that a copper eanded folded bullet would do - plus the remaining shank still provides that ultimate penetration you get from the brass shank.

Somewhere in the TBP thread are descriptions and photos of Michael's use of the 470gr .500 Lehigh Copper HP NonCon - petals shear at higher impact velocity but stay attached at lower impact velocity - and he severely thumped Cape buffalo in Africa and Asian buffalo in Australia...though photos may only be from Australia.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Tan,

I understand but have to disagree. Give me 1st brass petal shear, 2nd copper petal shear, and 3rd copper folded petals.

You have to remember, even though the sheared copper petals stay close to the wound channel that they just ream the s--t out of everything they encounter - far beyond the damage that a copper eanded bullet would do - plus the remaining shank still provides that ultimate penetration you get from the brass shank.

Somewhere in the TBP thread are descriptions and photos of Michael's use of the 470gr .500 Lehigh Copper HP NonCon - petals shear at higher impact velocity but stay attached at lower impact velocity - and he severely thumped Cape buffalo in Africa and Asian buffalo in Australia...though photos may only be from Australia.

+1

The soon to be Cali Copper Raptor to be needs an undercut at the base of the hex hole to sheer better and not banana peel out. Also the tougher and less soft copper alloys would aid in the sheering vs pealing effect.

Ok…this is going to be fairly long so I’ll apologize up front. Otherwise, here goes…

RIP did some testing of the 12.7 X 68mm Magnum/49-10/.500/.338 Lapua Magnum in his two rifles – rifle #1 using the 430gr .500 CEB MTH bullet and rifle #2 using the 360gr Talon Tipped .500 CEB ESP Raptor bullet – with awesome results at 100yds through 300yds.

I took the RIP’s results and ran the data using the JBM – Ballistic for iPad and posted the results at 2AM PDST on 5/30… the forum posted date and time of 31 May 2012 13:12. Here are the results for the 430gr .500 CEB MTH Copper HP Spitzer BT:
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-5 bullet drag profile = 0.450 BC
Necos – QuickLOAD/QuickTARGET for Win7 – G7 bullet drag profile = 0.426 BC

Now a few days later, after relooking at what I’d posted, I’ve decided to re-run RIP’s testing results for both bullets and verify my earlier posting, and if different then to continue running BC variables until I get a complete match to RIP’s actual firing.

As a reminder, here’s the relating information and targets:
Rifle No. 1:
Make/Weight/LOP: Winchester M70, 9#-3 oz. dry weight, 14.5”
Barrel: PAC-NOR No. 6 sporter contour, 1:12” twist, 8-lands/grooves, 0.785" diameter at 24" muzzle
Scope/Sight Height: 2.5-8X Leupold @ 11.4 oz, 1.50" (1.96”??? not sure as it wasn’t stated)
Rings/Bases: Leupold QRW steel rings & steel bases @ 16.0 oz.
Altitude/Weather: 300ft. alt., 75F, 29.53"Hg, 78% RH
Bullet: 430gr .500 CEB MTH copper HP spitzer
Bullet Length: 1.349"
COAL/Loading/Velocity: 3.583”, 100.0 grains of H322 powder, 2662.0 fps @ 15ft from muzzle, QL computed 58737 psi
Sighted POI/ Target Impact: +3.0” @ 100yds and -4.9” @ 300yds (center of grouping)
Group Size: 1.569” (center of grouping)

and
Rifle No. 2:
Make/Weight/LOP: BRNO ZKK 602, 9#-6 oz. dry weight, 13.5” (requires a LimbSaver slip-on pad to get 14.5" LOP)
Barrel: PAC-NOR No. 6 sporter contour, 1:12” twist, 8-lands/grooves, 0.785" diameter at 24" muzzle
Scope/Sight Height: 2.5-8X Leupold @ 11.4 oz, 1.50"
Rings/Bases: Standard CZ rings + homemade QD levers @ 6.7 oz.
Altitude/Weather: 300ft. alt., 80F @ 3PM, 29.53"Hg, 55% RH (I check the weather for this one)
Bullet: 360gr .500 Talon Tipped CEB ESP Raptor brass bullet (350gr W350 bullet + 10gr W Talon tip)
Bullet Length: 1.482" (with tip installed)
COAL/Loading/Velocity: 3.602”, 95.0 grains H4198, 2903.0 fps at 15ft from the muzzle, QL computed 63042 psi
Sighted POI/ Target Impact: +0.5” @ 100yd and -9.25” @ 300yd (center of grouping)
Group Size: 1.069” (center of grouping)



And a refresher regarding the ballistic program:
The JBM program gave me options of G-1 through G-8 bullet drag profiles with the G-5 being the most accurate description for the … Unfortunately the QT program only gives me G1 and G7 bullet drag profiles. And here are the descriptions of each:
• G1 or Ingalls (the most popular)
• G2 (Aberdeen J projectile)
• G5 (short 7.5° boat-tail, 6.19 calibers long tangent ogive)
• G6 (flatbase, 6 calibers long secant ogive)
• G7 (long 7.5° boat-tail, 10 calibers tangent ogive, preferred by some manufacturers for very-low-drag bullets)
• G8 (flatbase, 10 calibers long secant ogive)

So there we go for whatever it’s worth.
Rifle No. 1 with 430gr .500 CEB MTH copper HP spitzer BT bullet
Necos – QuicjDESIGN/QuickLOAD/QuickTARGET for Win7 – G7 bullet drag profile = 0.426 BC
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-1 bullet drag profile = 0.623 BC
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-5 bullet drag profile = 0.396 BC
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-7 bullet drag profile = 0.301 BC
And,
Rifle No. 2 with 360gr .500 Talon Tipped CEB ESP Raptor brass spitzer BT bullet (350gr W350 bullet + 10gr W Talon tip)
Necos – QuickDESIGN/QuickLOAD/QuickTARGET for Win7 – G7 bullet drag profile = 0.296 BC
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-1 bullet drag profile = 0.775 BC
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-5 bullet drag profile = 0.483 BC
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-7 bullet drag profile = 0.390 BC

So there you go...right, wrong, or otherwise.

I know the new post runs opposite my earlier BC post, however if you look at RIP's specific trajectories for each bullet...then yes, the new numbers are correct as each G1-G7 BC exactly matches each bullet's trajectory at 100yds and again at 300yds. Long way of saying that, "Yes the ESP Raptor indicates a higher BC than the MTH for those that question the results."

But please question or otherwise comment. If you have a different trajectory program then please run the data and verify or disprove my results.

Thanks,

There is about a 250 FPS start velocity difference. I know that the quicker the fight the less time gravity will pull the bullet down. Out to 300 yards the lighter quicker beats the slower heavier.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
There is about a 250 FPS start velocity difference. I know that the quicker the fight the less time gravity will pull the bullet down. Out to 300 yards the lighter quicker beats the slower heavier.

Boomy,

Very true, fastest bullet does arrive quicker though 'traditionally' the faster bullet might not have been properly constructed for the hunted game. In the case of these two NonCon bullet types - that is not an issue!

As currently loaded, the 8" max +/- trajectory of each bullet is about 301yds for the MTH and 313yds for the Raptor. Boost the PSI of the MTH up to match the Raptor and the 8" +/- trajectory for the MTH becomes 308yds.

Still...the 430gr MTH Copper HP Spitzer BT was designed months before the ESP Raptor was conceived and as designed it matches every benchmark that Dan was hit with…Plus it’s constructed of copper so is hunting legal in the giant vulture zone.

Reconstruct the ESP Raptor in copper and I figure the Talon Tipped Raptor will weight 385-386gr which with its lower velocity but better BC is should pretty much split the difference between the existing Raptor and MTH bullets.

Ah well…they’re a work in progress BC ballistically wise!

Jim,
Maybe I am delirious from sleep depravation right now (work).
But ...
Thanks for all the number crunching, but you are making my head spin when you get past the simple external ballistic programs.
From my shooting results, and my certain abilities to induce errors of measurement of those results, and using my simple programs,
I could buy the MTH BC of .426 as well as the Raptor BC of .296.
I am just going to use the KISS principle on this one.
And the lighter Raptor with poorer BC does shoot slightly flatter due to higher MV, by about 250 fps, as boom stick noted.

So how is it that the Raptor has better BC?

I am wondering if the bands and grooves on the sides of the brass, coarsely banded bullets,
as well as the "noncontinuity" of the surface where plastic tip meets brass nose,
causes "NonCon" turbulence and drag, heh, heh?

The much smoother surfaced, heavier, copper MTH nose and sides must be more slippery, improves BC.
Yes, if it could go faster, it would shoot flatter than the the lighter brass Raptor.
Captain Obvious here, over ...

Sorry I was not clear. Was referring to the trajectory when I was saying faster and lighter beats heavy and slower out to 300 yards.

Would be an interesting trajectory test to shoot the same velocity. In terms of real world advantage the minimal bearing surface brass banded bullets gain FPS at the same pressure. If you can load them faster and same pressure to shoot flatter to give more terminal damage that is a win win win scenario. The MTH will be flatter past 400 yards than the raptor no doubt. The MTH will outshine from 400-600 yards. At 2,900 I think the Raptor would have a functional sheer distance of at least 400 yards.

boom stick,
I think we are at the practical limits for speed on both bullets, at least in my rifles.
The heavier MTH with better BC still delivers more energy at 300 yards,
and it's margin over the Raptor increases with longer range.
Both can be zeroed to be useful from zero to 300 yards, with no hold-over on the largest PG.
Might have to be more careful on dik dik.