And why not just use the .490"-bore/.500"-groove barrel and call it a "490 Lapua Magnum" or 490 Tornado?


jeffeosso is talking about .490-bore/.498-groove,
and sizing your bullets down .002" using a 30-dollar, .498", push-through-nose-first, Lee bullet sizer die, and some STP Oil Treatment for lube?


Michael has been measuring some case neck wall thickness and O.D.s.
I am privy:

Ummmm ... Krieger makes a .485" x .475" barrel in whatever twist you like. I got this nifty 700 H&H case squeezed down to .485" ... looks like a giant 7.62 x 54R Russian ...

Jay,
A .485-groove is going to be more popular than my .395 groove ... because of ye olde 475 NE 3.25", which uses a .483"-caliber bullet???

Meanwhile R&D continues at Michael's Tornadowerkes:

why .498 and not .500? that's SIMPLE, no law on the book can be twisted to say its 1/2 inch... it aint a "fifty" of anything .. which there's just lots of "fun" laws, outlawing 50 anything, as a catagory... should they revise the laws, it clearly shows those laws are merely attempts to disarm, not public safety.

a die to cut down .500 bullets would cost about 40 bucks...

Think we have finished so far...98% Brass and chamer looking good. May measure the neck with one of michael 458 .500 bullets to be proove.

Recomends who should /could make the reamers?
D.Kiff / D.Manson / Clymer / JGS...? Don´t know.. any pro´s cons about them ?

Best
2RECON

quote:

A .485-groove is going to be more popular than my .395 groove ... because of ye olde 475 NE 3.25", which uses a .483"-caliber bullet???

Can do either on the 700 case. Mostly looking for something with big rim diameter and ready made tooling to test an action. How fast does a .395" x 350 grain bullet need to go ...

Skipping right over that .395 for now, as we are on the .500 Tornado trail.

Let us rather call it the ".490 Tornado" after the true bore diameter of PAC-NOR barrel.

Michael,
My reamer maker preferences:
Either of the "Davids" is just fine for reamer making,
Kiff or Manson.
Is Triebel any good?

You are 100% correct now on your brass and chamber specs, in my wildcat consultant opinion.

I would prefer to proceed with .490"-bore/.500"-groove barrel of 1:12" twist, from PAC-NOR.

Since you designed the .375 or 9.5mm Tornado, seems reasonable that the .490 Tornado is all yours.
I am just along for the ride.

RIP,

send the Drawing to one of the David´s. IF there are any questions, they both have my mail add.

Name it .490" XXX....(you can change it easily because the drawing is a "WORD"-File....

And, please, if you ever build a Rifle, send me ONE fired case....

Best
2RECON

PS: TRIEBEL is good, you´ll see it when you get the 9,5x70 Dies, but EXPENCIVE....:-))

2RECON,
Will proceed, and send you some fired brass when it is done,
sometime in 2010-2011.

In keeping with the "Thirty Ought Six" nomenclature,
may call this one the "Forty-Nine Naught Ten"
or simply "Forty-Niner."

490/.338 Lapua Magnum.
.490 Tornado
.490 XXX

Rip,
are you going to do it in 49 caliber, or just in .500, but calling it a 49? would love to collaborate with you

We have indeed made progress since 1856, but the slope is indeed slippery.
5 to 4 on the last sidehill jaunt. Whew!

".498 caliber menace." (see article below post to Jeffeosso)


Jeff,
Are you still wanting to get something done in .498-groove/.490-bore?

All I have to do is reduce the current neck diameters of brass and chamber by .002".
Your 500 AR would be similar if you reduced neck diameters by .012".

Easy enough.
I do not mind sizing bullets from .500" to .498".

But is this "Collaboration" meant to appeal to just me and you?

Michael prefers .500" groove/.490" bore, named for bore.
He designed the 9.5mm Tornado, and has done the work for this .490 XXX, with a few inputs from me along the way, related to my 500 Mbogo experience.

Would there be more appeal for others as .498" or with .500" groove?
Is there really an issue there?
Fearing caliber restrictions of the future?
Is not a .500"-caliber bullet in a .490"-bore barrel legal in Kalifornistan now?

http://www.examiner.com/x-2581...exta-499-caliber-ban

What's next--a .499 caliber ban?

After so-called "assault weapons," the second most popular target of the gun prohibitionists would probably be .50 caliber rifles. The ostensible "logic" (being generous here) is that such rifles are "too powerful" to be entrusted to private citizens. Nightmare scenarios of airliners being shot down, or tanks of dangerous chemicals being breached, are breathlessly trotted out in efforts to frighten the public. One thing never mentioned in discussions of these potential disasters is an account of anything like that ever happening, anywhere in the world. The very simple reason for that is that nothing like that ever has happened.

Come to think of it, that seems a little odd. After all, Ronnie Barrett started marketing his .50 caliber rifles to civilians more than 25 years ago, and the cartridge such rifles fire (originally designed as a machine gun round, hence the round's .50 BMG nomenclature, which means .50 caliber Browning Machine Gun) has been in service for almost 75 years. One would think that if terrorists or other evil sorts had designs on using such a rifle to shoot down an airliner or puncture a chemical tank, they would have gotten around to it by now. Could it be that they have determined that such a plan, though dastardly, isn't really workable?

In fact, the rabidly, virulently anti-gun Violence Policy Center, in pushing for a ban, can only document a few cases of actual criminal use of .50 caliber rifles in the U.S., but pad those statistics by including a couple dozen cases of them being recovered from crime scenes in which they were not fired. As for killings in the U.S. committed with such rifles? Zero, zilch, nada.

That shouldn't come as much of a surprise. At a length of 4 or 5 feet, a weight of 20 to 40 pounds, and a cost of thousands of dollars, they're a very unlikely choice for most criminals.

Gun prohibitionists aren't of the sort to allow themselves to be made slaves to . . . rationality, though, so they've been busy. The rifles are banned in California, and threatened in New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Massachusetts, and Hawaii. The feds can't let themselves be left out of the forcible citizen disarmament fun, and we should soon expect a reprise of Senator Feinstein's S. 1331 from last session.

Let's say such a ban is passed--say, at the federal level. What is to stop someone from marketing a rifle and cartridge in .499 caliber--with at least as much case capacity, and thus very similar power (or even more)? Sure, they could ban that, too, but that would do nothing about the ".498 caliber menace." You can probably see where I'm heading here. Everything they ban can be replaced by something essentially and functionally the same (and that doesn't even take into consideration the ridiculous fallacy of thinking that making something illegal makes it unobtainable).

In fact, something similar to the process I described above has already begun. In California, where the .50 BMG cartridge is banned (along with the rifles that fire it), the very similar .510 DTC is perfectly legal. Inspired by .50 caliber bans, Barrett Rifles has introduced the .416 Barrett, which promises to be superior in some ways to the .50 BMG for long range shooting (or "sniping," as the forcible citizen disarmament advocates insist on calling it).

The bottom line is that no matter how many bans the gun prohibitionists manage to get passed into law, they can do nothing to reduce any "menace" posed by civilian access to such firearms, and I seriously doubt they're unaware of that. What motivates them, I believe, is that they view these rifles as low-hanging fruit. Their power makes them easy to demonize in overheated press releases about what a "threat" they are, and their cost means that few people own them, and thus few gun owners will fight hard for their continued legality. .50 caliber rifles, then, are seen as the next step in spilling some oil on the slippery slope of citizen disarmament, and jacking up the incline by a few degrees.

http://www.examiner.com/x-2581...-Gun-Rights-Examiner

I am planning on necking the 500ar done to the 49caliber, exactly, with a reasonably fast twist. Exactly to not have any part of it being a fifty.

Jeff,
I would hate to have to resize all the .500" bullets to .498", solid brass and copper might not be so easy,
and any pre-rifle-barrel squeezing of a CNC machined bullet is not likely to make it more accurate.
I have already been the oddball route with getting .395 barrels made, and the custom-caliber bullets to go with them.
If The Fat Lady ever sings about .500-bore/.490-groove rifles I will consider another oddball.
Don't need to now.
Good luck getting that .498 bullet and barrel off the ground.

... Dave Manson will be making the reamer for the .500 XXX, aka 490/.338 Lapua Magnum ...

And if this brass is only about 2.657" max (trim to 2.647"),
with a max neck length of 0.471",
if a second reamer is made with longer neck ...

490 Lapua No. 2:
3.000" max brass length
0.814" max neck length
20-degree shoulder hemi-angle
SLICK!!!
Eh? boomstick?

I could even shorten it to 2.945" max brass length, and still have 0.759" max neck length,
trim-to brass length: 2.935" with 0.749" minimum neck length.

At 2.647" it will be like Jeffeosso's 490 Accrel. You could use the longer custom bullets for a 06 size action.

A 2.8" case will work in a 06 size Ruger
A 2.4" case would be good for a short action.
A 3" case would be good for a 375 HH size action.
Necking up the 460 case and taking the belt off would be the easiest.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
... Dave Manson will be making the reamer for the .500 XXX, aka 490/.338 Lapua Magnum ...

And if this brass is only about 2.657" max (trim to 2.647"),
with a max neck length of 0.471",
if a second reamer is made with longer neck ...

490 Lapua No. 2:
3.000" max brass length
0.814" max neck length
20-degree shoulder hemi-angle
SLICK!!!
Eh? boomstick?

I could even shorten it to 2.945" max brass length, and still have 0.759" max neck length,
trim-to brass length: 2.935" with 0.749" minimum neck length.

The 500ar is nearly exactly that, guys.
2.65 long
20 deg shoulder
One caliber neck to shoulder
.577 shoulder
.510 bullet

You should be able to use all the load work I've done on it

Good luck! The 490ar will be identical except 49caliber

Jeffe,
Yes indeed, only a few "thou" differences here and there from the "490"/500 AR.
Started off with .338 Lapua Mag brass too, eh Jeffe?
Not much wiggle room there.
I just wanted a true .500"-caliber.
If the Fat Lady bans .500-groove/.490-bore, I'll come over to your .498-cal.

Like you, I will be able to use any .416 Rigby basic or .338 Lapua Magnum brass.
I feel better about not blowing it out that last .010".
Sticking to only .498"-caliber bullet would be even better with the Lapua brass, but I'll get by.

2RECON (Michael) has figured out some great inside neck reaming hardware for Triebel (Germany) to tool up!
Brass neck is held compressed in die and reamed to .496" or some such I.D. (will leave the specifics to German Engineering),
then brass is removed and springs out to slightly larger, but still snug on .500"-caliber bullet
with good concentricity.

Then there is the long neck version, with a 3/4" long neck and a 1/2" diameter bullet.
"490 Texas Longneck."

Rip,
its fun, aint it? I started with rigby brass, and then backed into what the max oal would be, to fit into std length ... i tried laupa brass, and found it far harder and thicker than norma or hornady rigby, and since the hornady stuff works so well, i stayed with it.

we need a 49 caliber!

German Engineering, latest R&D progress, is shown in photo, including .416 Rigby necked up by tool shown,
then loaded with a custom German .500-caliber bullet.
Fireformed brass will be had prior to testing that bullet:

@RIP,
@michael 458,

just got some bullets.......500" Diam. Copper and brass ones. THANX RIP !!!
470+550+510grs....

Can´t wait to get my ordered tooling to make a REAL Dummy.....

Best
2RECON

Excellent 2Recon!!!!! Glad you like and glad you received, that was pretty quick.

Can't wait to see the dummies too!

Listen, might have to ask for some help from you, I am having some issues staying in contact via email with Horneber? I know they received at least 1 email as I heard back rather promptly on it, but other emails with details, I have heard nothing and I want to proceed having some RUM basic brass made for the 500 MDM with head stamp????

Michael

@Sam too!
Sam did some very fine bastard-file-work on those .500-cal/510-grain brass FNs, of which you got 3 of the 4 donated.
I am holding on to one for posterity.

The few others you got are from Doc M, of which even more "commercial samples" of "machined copper and brass parts" I am also holding for posterity.

Testing, 1,2,3 ...

Finally got my PAC-NOR barrel in .500-groove/.490 bore. Stainless Steel Super Match, 12" Twist, No. 6 Pac-Nor Sporter contour, 28" long ...
OD at 28" is about .750".
OD at 24" is about .800".
OD at 23" is about .812".
Plenty thick in the groove-wall at 28" or less.
Ready to be cut, threaded, and chambered for a Winchester M70: .500/.338 Lapua Magnum with 20-degree shoulder

AKA "490 Lapua"

Seems to me that you may be looking for some really good bullets before too long!

M

Jahwol, Herr Doc M, and I shall use your 500 MDM and 50 B&M bullet testing and selections as a guide for 490 Lapua aka 500 Tornado.
Thanks for all the research.

I have had bad weather in KY.
Will shoot the .458 B&M if it is ever clear on one of my weekends off,
Lord willin' and if the creeks ever recede!
Not freezing anymore, but it is now flooding.
Ohio River is above flood levels, as well as all the creeks backing up from it that I gotta cross to get to the range.
Have canoe, will paddle.

RIP

When I did the 500 MDM my mind was wrapped around 550 gr bullets--which I still have plenty of those first SSK/Lehigh 550s. Today, with the CEBs I won't ever use or have any need for nothing but the 500 CEB BBW#13s for solids, all the penetration and bunker busting, elephant head busting that will ever be needed and then some more. So I dropped the the BBW#13 500 gr for all that work. It's match NonCon 460 is plenty as well. I will be hammering buff with those in June, so I will be able to report I was correct on that point I believe.

I am starting up with my 458 B&M this week as well, getting it ready for June.

M

Doc M,
I will be watching for your results, expecting great things.
Influenced by MIB, I had already picked out 500 grains as the preferred weight for my "490 Lapua/500 Tornado":
500 grains of "500 caliber" NonCon at maybe 2500 fps.
That will be gentle on my shoulder and wicked on the other end of the rifle.
And that rifle is an M70 Winchester.
Until I get custom bottom metal and stock, it will be a three-shooter, with two in the box and one surfing off the top of the box to chamber.
The RUM box currently on the action seems to make it feed well for two plus one.
I'll see if I can break the factory plastic stock while it is in shop mule mode, doing load development duty.

Doc RIP

I am expecting some BIG things come June from the 500 MDM and the #13s. Right now I am minus a stock of course! Sent that big 4x4 fore end of a English back to AI--stock was made before I taught Wes to THIN the fore end up for a proper fighting rifle! It should be back in 3 weeks or so, slim and trim ready for buffalo battle! Currently I am running the 500 BBW#13 solid low velocity, 2370 fps, 460 NonCon at 2530 fps, 450 NF CPS at 2530 with these three near the same POI at 50, 500 Solid about 1 inch lower than the NonCons. I have to take that deep cavity 425 also at 2670 fps just to see what happens! It's about 1.5 inches above the other NonCons at 50, I think I can live with those POIs. That 425 explodes like a grenade, not a nice star pattern shear, but an ugly, uneven explosion, I just have to find out what that does to a zebra, or wildebeast, things like that-might even bust a buffalo after the 460 NonCon and 450 North Fork as well!

This trip is going to be heavy to the NonCons, and just enough solids to work with! First time in a long time not heavy to solids!

2 down is dandy. I would not have an issue with that at all.

Let me know when you are getting close, I will get a wad of .500s coming your way, might as well send some so you can get ready!

Michael

The Pac-Nor .500-caliber barrel is .491" in the lands (bore diameter) and it is .500" in the grooves (bullet caliber).
It is a .491-bore.
49 Lapua or 50 Lapua, by bore or caliber designation, and Finnish descent.
12.7mm (.500) Tornado, by metric caliber, and German descent.
"Forty-Nine Ten" by 30-06, 40-07, 50-08, 49-10 numbers game.
"Forty-Niner" for walkie-talkie communications.

quote:

"Forty-Niner" for walkie-talkie communications.

Hmmmm .... 700HH barrels are .690 bore and .700 groove.

Since this is a Kentucky round it should be 500 or 490 Tetonka
It's not a lapua since you blew out the taper.
English nomenclature a 490 magnum rimless nitro express or maybe 490 and your last name and maybe magnum.
490 Berry Magnum? You are close to Tornado alley though. What is the local Indian name for Tornado? 500 u-ge-da-li-yv?
490 Tetonka seems good.

Good one, by "J."

BS,
Some Kentuckians are able to spell, are you? "Tetonka?"
I might leave the barrel long and put a brass patchbox on the buttstock ...

Officially: 49/.338 Lapua Magnum

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Good one, by "J."

BS,
Some Kentuckians are able to spell, are you? "Tetonka?"
I might leave the barrel long and put a brass patchbox on the buttstock ...

Officially: 49/.338 Lapua Magnum

Oops My apologies to all the Tatonkas out there.

TATANKA

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
2RECON,
Will proceed, and send you some fired brass when it is done,
sometime in 2010-2011.

In keeping with the "Thirty Ought Six" nomenclature,
may call this one the "Forty-Nine Naught Ten"
or simply "Forty-Niner."

490/.338 Lapua Magnum.
.490 Tornado
.490 XXX

What's the facination with the 338 Lapua shell?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
TATANKA

My apologies to all Tatankas

Quote of IBT:

quote:

What's the facination with the 338 Lapua shell?

Mainly I just like to be the only kid on the block with my new wildcat. Sort of like Saeed with his .375/404 Jeffery UAE Express.
That shoulder angle is still top secret.
Is it 25 degrees or 30 degrees?

Some fascinating attributes of the .338 Lapua Magnum brass:
Best quality brass, no flies on it.
Capable of 70 K psi.
Lasts long at 60 K psi or lower.
Thick head.
Full rim, no rebate.
What's not to like about it?
I only regret that the slick-feeding, generous taper of the case body of the .338 Lapua Mag (same as on the .416 Rigby) has been blown out some to make a good shoulder for the 49-er.
At least I have retained the sleek 20-degree shoulder of the machine gun feeder for the 49-er.
Poor old .416 Rigby has the abominable 45-degree shoulder.
My Lapuas: 300, .338, .375, 45, and soon a 49.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Quote of IBT:

quote:

What's the facination with the 338 Lapua shell?

Mainly I just like to be the only kid on the block with my new wildcat. Sort of like Saeed with his .375/404 Jeffery UAE Express.
That shoulder angle is still top secret.
Is it 25 degrees or 30 degrees?

Some fascinating attributes of the .338 Lapua Magnum brass:
Best quality brass, no flies on it.
Capable of 70 K psi.
Lasts long at 60 K psi or lower.
Thick head.
Full rim, no rebate.
What's not to like about it?
I only regret that the slick-feeding, generous taper of the case body of the .338 Lapua Mag (same as on the .416 Rigby) has been blown out some to make a good shoulder for the 49-er.
At least I have retained the sleek 20-degree shoulder of the machine gun feeder for the 49-er.
Poor old .416 Rigby has the abominable 45-degree shoulder.
My Lapuas: 300, .338, .375, 45, and soon a 49.

Thanks

After I posted that question, I saw the history of the 338 Lapua as posted on their site. Helps me to understand the attraction. Very good, very strong brass is about a 416 Rigby size. One grain of powder short according to Lapua.

Your list is missing the 395 Lapua?

IBT

IBT,
Oops! Even I am starting to obsolete the .395 again? Never!
Forgive me!
Add to above list of LMs: 398 LM (.395/.338 Lapua Magnum)
That makes six.

If you look at the external dimensions of actual brass made by Lapua for the .338 LM and by Norma for both the .338 LM and .416 Rigby,
all are identical up to the point where the .338 LM shoulder starts.
No matter what any published specs say if they differ by a thou or a few thou,
in real life the manufacturing tolerances make them externally identical from base to shoulder of the .338 LM.
Then the 20-degree shoulder of the .338 LM "sleeks in."
Both the .416 Rigby and the .338 LM share about the greatest degree of case taper that you will find on modern cartridges.
That is what makes it possible to blow it out to use the .500-caliber bullet in the Forty-Niner.

Just to clarify, there is more than a 1 grain difference between the .338 Lapua Magnum and the .416 Rigby, of course.
It is more like a 15 grain difference in gross water capacity.
The LM case is thicker than the Rigby case, especially in the base. That cuts down on the internal volume slightly, yes.
However, the .338 LM brass is only 2.724" max length, whereas the .416 Rigby is 2.900" max in brass length.
That allows use of longer .338 bullets in the Rigby length box.
Same reason the .338 RUM ended up shorter than the 300 RUM and .375 RUM.
Same reason Saeed shortened his .375/404J UAE Express to 2.820", so he can use the long-nosed Walterhog bullet in a .416 Rigby length box.

I do believe that both .375/.338 LM and .375/404J UAE Express have a 119-grain gross water capacity.
Excellent brass case designs in both of those.
Then there is the inferiorly designed .375 RUM case with about 1 grain of water more, at 2.850" max brass length.

Alas, I am not trying to sell anything nor influence anyone about anything other than the truth. Call it madness.

From Warrior on the current 400 H&H thread, a quote of a quote:

quote:

And another interesting view by IndyCA35:-

"More junk designer cartridges cluttering up the shelves and complicating ammunition availability. I hope they go broke on this venture.

Of all the 30 or 40 junk rifle cartridges introduced in the last 20 years or so, the only ones I can think of that have any useful purpose are the .300 WSM, .375 Ruger, and maybe the .270 WSM. The others just duplicate what's been available for years. Or decades.

Norma/Blaser will doubtless pay for a safari for Craig Boddington or someone to go to South Africa and shoot something. Then he will write an article in "Guns and Ammo" saying, "Ooh. Gush. Gurgle. How neat. It killed the antelope."

And a bunch of dummies will rush out and buy the stuff. Norma/Blaser will sell the ammo for twice or three times what .300 Winchester ammo costs because there will only be one source for it...if you can even find it."

Warrior

I have a scratch for the 400 H&H itch, called the .395 H&H.
I am going to swear off wildcats after the 49/.338 Lapua Magnum and .395 H&H are finished.
It is getting hard to keep track of the ones I have.
Forgot about the 398 Lapua Magnum, SHEESH!

Here are the QuickLOAD gross water capacities (grains) of some pertinent cartridges, not actual measures by me, just what is default in QuickLOAD:

.338 Lapua Magnum ..... 108.00
.416 Rigby ............ 127.50
.404 Jeffery .......... 113.30
.375 Rem. Ultra Mag ... 117.00

Blowing the case out and necking up makes the .500/.338 Lapua Magnum closer to 135 or 136 grains of water gross.

Forty-Niner: about 135 grains water gross (136.4 with Hornady basic Rigby brass per 2RECON's measure, Lapua brass will be less)
500 Mbogo: about 155 grains of water gross

Comparing the Forty-Niner to the 500 Mbogo chambers:

FORTY-NINER 1:12" twist for .492"/.500" barrels



500 MBOGO 1:10" twist for .500"/.510" barrels