quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Sam,

Yep I remember the .500 Raptor prototype you made for Michael...nice looking it was...and I understand Michael has "misplaced" it.

I guess Raptors don't make much sense for DRs unless they're scoped.

If you load the DG Raptors as solids, will the base shape reduce base drag enough to make a difference at the 50 yard range?

IBT

IBT,
Very interesting question...I have zero DRs so no idea...that said, if the Raptors shot to same POI from FN & HP then it would certainly be an interesting light weight alternative.

This is how I see it.
Let's say you shoot a nominal weight solid and non con in a big bore in say 450/400. 400 grain solid, 370 grain Non Con and maybe a 300 grain Raptor. Adding the tip to a non con will add range. Adding a ESP Raptor with a talon tip will add range and velocity for plains game and feed from the mag in bolt actions. A 300 grain Raptor in a 405 Win would be good lion medicine.

Michael,
Here’s a draft of your new .585 B&M (Gibbs) with a lousy drawing of the 750gr CEB BBW#13 FN Solid;



Here are the draft case specifications:
Parent Case: .505 Gibbs Mag
Rim and Groove: .416 Rigby specifications
Case Length: 2.25” (standard B&M case length)
Gross Case Capacity: 137.5gr
Net Case Capacity: 92.8gr (with the 750gr BBW#13 FN Solid)
Action: M70 WSM Winchester
Barrel: 18”

QL Workup:
89gr RL-10x – 110.1 Fill/LR = 2007 fps – 6714 ft-lbs @ 61483 psi
QT Simulation:
Zero: 50 yards = 1848 fps – 5881 ft-lbs
PBR: 134 yards = 1652 fps – 5257 ft-lbs

Michael,
Here’s your alternative draft of your new .585 B&M (Jeffery) with a lousy drawing of the 750gr CEB BBW#13 FN Solid;



Here are the draft case specifications:
Parent Case: .500 Jeffery
Rim and Groove: .500 Jeffery specifications
Case Length: 2.25” (standard B&M case length)
Gross Case Capacity: 129gr
Net Case Capacity: 84.4gr (with the 750gr BBW#13 FN Solid)
Action: M70 WSM Winchester
Barrel: 18”

QL Workup:
83.75gr RL-10x – 114.0 Fill/LR = 1965 fps – 6442 ft-lbs @ 61474 psi
QT Simulation:
Zero: 50 yards = 1814 fps – 5896 ft-lbs
PBR: 132 yards = 1628 fps – 5292 ft-lbs

Traditional nose to crimp on the 577 is short
Somewhere in the .65" see woodleigh bullets. If doing a Super short on a Jeffery case I think all you would need to do is cut and stuff. I think the brass thickness at 2.25" on a Jeffery and Gibs case would be about 30 thou plus so a straight case to 1.675" seems about right on the super short Jeffery version. Think of it as a rebated fat 500 S&W.

I’m thinking a .585 on the WSM action length, or an M98 Intermediate length action, could be very interesting…and most definitely cries out for a lighter weight bullet FN and HP bullets – I think perhaps the it would be the perfect jumbo bore cartridge for a Raptor…say 600gr weight…and let the bullet overall length fall where it may. I’m thinking +50” terminal penetration loaded FN out…somewhere 15”-20” terminal penetration loaded HP out. Definately would be a hand shoulder fired cannon.

A 2.25" gibs case to .585 is cool no doubt. I'd open the bolt to fit the gibs rim and single stack it. A 2.25" .550" bullet on a rigby case or WBY case might be better. A 2.25" Ribgy case necked to .510 could be sweet in a WSM or 06 length.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
A 2.25" gibs case to .585 is cool no doubt. I'd open the bolt to fit the gibs rim and single stack it. A 2.25" .550" bullet on a rigby case or WBY case might be better. A 2.25" Ribgy case necked to .510 could be sweet in a WSM or 06 length.

I believe Jeff has indicated that he has a 0.005” taper on his AccRel cartridges so at 2.25” a .485 would work just fine on the .500 Jeffery case. It would be a rebated case – but then so are all of the RUM derivative B&M and AccRel cases…plus the bolt face doesn’t have to be opened up as much so it’d be just a “trim the case”, run it through the FLR die, load it up and you’re good to go.

I know Hubel has opened the bolt face up to the point that there is basically a flat face with little holding the rim and they work safely with his cartridges. That’s just something new to wrap my brain around.

It seems the Savage 220 20 gauge bolt action rebarreled and using 577 or 577/450 cases necked to 585 or 620 bullets would be a better way to go cost and feeding wise.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
It seems the Savage 220 20 gauge bolt action rebarreled and using 577 or 577/450 cases necked to 585 or 620 bullets would be a better way to go cost and feeding wise.

I seem to recollect Hubel pointing out a huge safety issue with using high pressure loads with the Savage 220s...plus you'd never get Michael to use one.

Perfect high $ solution would be one of those intermediate length M98 Mauser TI actions that Satterlee makes/sells…it has a 0.750” diameter bolt so the Gibbs rim diameter would be no issue.

Boomy,
Just thought, we're giving Michael one big headache when he logs on Saturday morning.

If I remember correctly Ed was taking the 20 ga to the limit of what the brass shotshell case could take, 30K.
Now in his 12 ga. he went much higher with his custom brass. 40K If I'm remembering correctly.

A 577 B&M Holy Shoke
Will the damn thing fit in a Win 70?


Cheers, John

While the cats away the mice will play with wildcats lol.

Well then....
Lets say you have a Savage 12ga bolt gun (the only one with a bolt big enough) and built your Short Mag using 50 BMG brass.
Keep the pressure around 40K and rock on.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Boomy,
Just thought, we're giving Michael one big headache when he logs on Saturday morning.

quote:

Michael wrote:

Spoke with Dan earlier, and for sure Raptors coming in Big Bores, at least from 416 to .500 and .510. Do know, these all will be light for caliber, and hopefully we can make them work inside the magazines, with tips, that is the point of the Raptor--Enhanced System Projectile! So it has to do everything, and do everything well!

Yes, light for calibre is what we want. We already have the standard heavies. With the new technology an SD around .250 ought to be just fine for buffalo, maybe less. Antelope can probably go quite low, maybe down to .200 SD. Still, a Raptor in .375" and up needs to be thinking of about .250 SD to provide good margin on Nyati. Those little remaining cylinders need to go over 20" and I would prefer 25"+. The trauma effect of a cylinder mainly occurs when still travelling fast in a medium, so I would be less excited if it was slowing down and stopping at 18-20" with 'only' a .5" frontal. Expanding 30 calibres do that.

If it works in a magazine, that is extra. I'm also prepared for single loads for shots over 150 yards. It's win win.

We're just waiting to see what kind of trauma they will do when introduced into the medium by the tip and if the tips stay on the bullet all the way to the medium. Those reference cards might be useful out at 15" and 20" to see what the cylinder may be doing. Some of the guys have pretty fast twists on these big bores. I'm going with a 1 in 12" for a .510" and even that is faster than the typical 15".

Michael =

Tan,
I know that I started much of the weight discussion...but I think we need to wait for MIB bullet box testing of the BB prototype ESP Raptors before we push to change them from a "light for caliber" to a "standard for caliber" weight scenario.

Ya'll gonna drive me totally !!!!!!!!!!

I can hardly keep up as it is!

OK, Capo and RIP, pay attention! I received the few over run bullets in your special run of CEB copper pointy things from Dan yesterday. I don't recall how many, 15-20 of them I think, so I gave them a good workout this morning whilst doing some other things, and since you have these in hand I thought you might like some info on them

Good news--They are in my opinion a huge success! You did good!

As you remember from a couple of years ago I was using a 470 Copper HP from Lehigh on the buffalo. Running at 2450 fps or so I was getting shear at less than 50-60 yards, then on out there getting a six bladed bullet from hell anyway. No real downside as I saw it, but the shear produced more reaction and more trauma from the buffalo. So I decided the shearing effect was very good and here we are today with shearing brass bullets!

Now you two want to go back to copper, JHC, can't you just leave well enough alone? HEH HEH....

But, these pointy things you guys had done are doing very well, even way down in velocity. Take a look!

I loaded what I thought would be top end loads to see what was going to happen in both 50 B&M and the 500 MDM.





Of course they are too long for the magazine in the 50 B&M.





Starting out at the higher end velocity in the 50 B&M and working my way down. Even at 2350 fps pressures were only 52672 PSI, so I could easy raise the velocity in the 50 B&M.













Of course you know this, but almost all copper blades stay with the center wound channel, and that is ok and not a bad thing, there is a massive wound channel with these at velocity, and the copper blades assist with that. You don't see any, I got tired of looking for them, as I did brass Carnivores before these and spent half the morning sifting through paper pulp looking for blades! With these I was more interested in just making sure they are opening, and working, and that they are doing very very well! You guys have a good bullet!

Michael

Pretty and dangerous.
Congrats on a great bullet.

Michael,
Thanks for the tests… Looking at the first photograph at the commencement of the grooving on the bullet above the Seal Tite Band is just about the seating depth that Dan said could be used with this bullet when there is a COAL/magazine length issue (yep with the Seal Tite Band within the case neck). I don’t know if seating the bullet that deep would allow it to function from your magazine or not…might be something to try.


I think these two photographs pretty much say all that needs to be said!





Dan likes copper and he said these bullets would work just fine. If I’ve computed correctly, using a MV of 2355 should equal this impact result at approximately 350yds. So…I’d say, “Dan well done! You hit the performance target right in the X-ring.”

Who said .50 caliber weren't long range hunting calibers!

Thanks Boomy...this was nothing more than an idea that Dan turned into an exceptional bullet.

Now I can hardly wait for a test of the .423s...but my guns not ready and Michael doesn't have one.

Ah..I just noticed your pressure trace attached to that mightly fine looking 50 B&M. Was it perhaps operational during the velocity/impact testing?

Oh yes...I guess I need to add, I don't think you'll want to send that rifle for California testing...you'll likely never get it back!

That is Jim and Dan's baby, and it's a JIMDANDY!
However I did show good sense to grab a ride on that wagon!
Thanks for the confirmatory testing of a great bullet.
Expansion starting around 1600 fps with a copper hollowpoint is perfect.
They are perfect as is for the 49-10 which is about like the 500 MDM in horsepower.

Those are pretty darn nice looking bullets! Even if I am slightly biased.

To tell the truth.
I was really diggen the 585 B&M Gibbs. Oh well.

The copper pointy things are nice but I like North Fork bullets.
There has been almost 200 pages of the most determined research I have ever had the privilege of reading.

I humbley thank all those that had a hand in it. I should really say this everyday, its been that good.

Cheers, John

The performance of your .500 430gr bullets looks tremendous. I hope our .395s do the same thing this fall.
Max

I second the professor's opinion.

Congratulations all around.

John,
I as well like NF bullets but due to unfortunate circumstances I am lawfully required to use monometal bullets to hunt game animals in the general area where I live…so for me it’s those copper pointy things.

The 585 B&M-Gibbs would be a pretty nice cartridge but it’s only an idea on the drawing board unless someone takes it further.

Max,
Dan designs very good performing bullets so I don’t doubt your .395 will work just as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
An observation and an opinion.

The Carnivore has a very deep hollow point cavity. This cavity is not filling with media on impact. This leaves a void that the bullet is collapsing into.
Fill the bullet with wax and retest. The wax will give an even hydraulic effect that will promote an even shearing of the blades.

Over half a century on this planet and I still cant spell...lol
John

Oh my God, the things I do to keep this Crowd "Entertained"!!!!!!!!!!






I was not so sure if this would have much of an effect or not? Dan and I spoke about it, we decided to take a look, it was easy enough to do, and I still had plenty of Experimental Carnivores to test. So I rummaged around, found a couple of left over birthday candles and went to work.

The other day, I tried one of the 430 Carnivores at very low impact velocity, around 1500 fps and it did NOT SHEAR, remained a solid and passed completely through the medium into the impact berm, lost. About 40 inches or so of medium in the box for testing.

Trying to find shear point I increased the powder in this low velocity load from 40 IMR 4198 to 42 IMR 4198, in the 458 B&M. Loaded the two Waxed bullets above, and headed to the range. Well something went wacky, and there was enough difference between the two rounds that I separated them into 1 each, even though they both had 42 grs of IMR 4198. Anyway, one was at 1678 fps impact, the other at 1604 fps impact, I kept up while digging through the medium, but once they were put in the bag I did not. But I had the numbers on each and the rest does not matter which is which, as they are the same.

In testing the Carnivores it's of note they do not shear in an even pattern like the NonCons do with their .400 deep cavity. Now I still contend, it makes little difference whether they do or not, as trauma inflicted is incredible, either way. Not sure that one way or the other has much impact on inflicting trauma. Having shot both, I can't see a difference in the field in animal reaction to whether the blades stay within or close to center wound channel or move away from center wound channel. As for "Volume of Trauma" total, probably about the same either way.

The wax DID IN FACT cause a hydraulic effect and did change the way these shear. The bigger longer blades did in fact move away from center and in a star pattern, not quite as neat as the NonCon after about 4-5 inches, but some blades I found were 4 inches away from center channel at 6 inches depth. So they are moving away from center fast, faster than the NonCon, and makes sense, as the longer blades are twice as heavy.

I plan to take the velocity down again another notch back into the low 1500s or maybe slightly less, with a Wax Filled Cavity. This might be the greatest advantage to a Carnivore is getting the shear at very low velocity? This might be important to some limited case capacity cartridges? I don't know, let's find out this week!




Michael

Phats, by the way, good thinking! It does work and does change the shear pattern.

You know I give you guys some crap sometimes, but personally I do think this is one hell of a Bullet Think Tank. Of course not all the ideas are good or bad or stupid or right, but throw enough out there, like Capo says, sometimes something sticks to the wall instead of sliding off!

Some of these things have brought all of us where we are today with some of the finest bullets I have ever worked with, and everyone has had a part to play in it. For once, it's shooters and hunters who are making the decisions on what we want to see, and need to use in the field, instead of some "Accountant" sitting in a company far off and far removed from us, don't care about us or what we need and making the decisions for us! Possibly an individual that has never even been to the field as well!

We are fortunate we have two bullet companies that are willing to go the extra mile to actually work with us, and help us produce better results in the field, assisting us as shooters and hunters to enhance our capabilities, and enhance our own success rates, and it's working! Not fantasy, it's working for each of us as we continue to see!

Job well done Gentlemen! Each of you that take part, a little pat on the back is deserved. Those of you still lurking, never be afraid to jump in and state your part as well. Your input is always welcomed and needed in fact!

Michael

Carnivore! Love it! Excellent name and it is doing what I ask of it, and even a little more I think! There is tremendous amount of trauma inflicted by these things. I really think we just got lucky and have the formula just right so far, based on the first prototype in .500 caliber. The 458s and 416s are just as good, and working the same. As known the total penetration of the main part of the bullet is less than the NonCon, as it should be, but penetration is still incredible and MORE than enough for any thin skinned dangerous game, biggest lion, biggest bear, and no leopard can take one very far I think at all! This is going to be a devastating Thin Skinned Dangerous Game Bullet. This is the bullet I want for that work if I am ever fortunate enough to embark upon such a hunt again! While in Zim this past June, we were trying to get some lion on bait. I carried the 420 BBW#13 NonCon in my 458 B&M for this a couple of nights, this 430 Carnivore would have been an excellent bullet to have. But honestly, I had way more than 100% confidence in the 420 NonCon anyway, after busting hell out of a couple of buffalo and croc with it by then!

The Carnivore is an enhancement for a specific task in mind! That's how I see it. Now in a pinch, it has enough penetration if you were hunting lion or leopard and a buffalo of a life time stepped in front of you, you would still be able to work with the bullet in the chamber, with little or no concern, the penetration is that good anyway. I would rather have the NonCon but would not worry about failure with the Carnivore! Same is true with the NonCon. While out hunting buffalo, and a giant BEAR stepped out, then I know the NonCon is going to turn him for a flip! No worries either way! So no down side to having both bullets. One will not replace the other in it's respective roles however, not in my opinion.

I like the Carnivore, I will be placing orders for these and keeping them on hand. My hope is to use some of these this spring on some thin skinned critters, kudu, wildebeast, and even impala to do more field study with them. While not DG, plenty good enough to show trauma inflicted, and study the bullet in the field. Very interested in actual reactions to taking the bullet, and what happens thereafter, more so than actual digging in the goo! Digging in the goo is part of it of course, but I already know what is going to happen for the most part that area of performance.

I will be going down in velocity with the 416s this week as well.




Michael

Maybe the best candidate for the hex hole is the carnivoire for more consistent sheer. The hex would strengthen the center and give a better path of least resistance to the outer edges of the hole. Can that be
Manufactured within reason? I do not know.
Hoping the Raptors got some prey this weekend!

Boomy, you are as nuts as I am, what are you doing up this time of morning where you are? LOL.....

Hex Hole? Well maybe it might give more consistent shear. But like I said above, I am not really sure it makes much difference whether shear is in star pattern away from center, or shear is contained close to the center channel??? I can't see a difference in the field in trauma inflicted and animal reaction?

Can it be manufactured within reason? I don't know either, that's a question for the bullet men!

Have heard no news on "Raptors" taking prey this weekend?

M

The current hexagonal holes in the NonCons do all that can be asked.
I see nothing of significance to be gained in changing them, except cost.
In fact the "torx" holes have more potential for poorer performance than chance of benefit.
The clean, sharp angle at each of the corners of the hex-hole are stress risers that assure perfect six-pointed "hexplosive" stars: Kosher!
Much easier to make uniformly for accuracy too.
Gotta stay concentric, and keep the cost of the machining reasonable!
Rounding out the corners into a torx pattern will strengthen the wall as compared to the sharp angle.
Might get erratic in expansion.
The weight gain of each petal offered by the torx hole is not significant.

As Doc M said:

"I see lot's of speculation about changing the NonCon? I won't be changing a damned thing with mine! HEH HEH... Perfect is Perfect, what is there to change! LOL............ Michael"



As for the home boy wax filling of the carnivore nose, that is interesting.
Lessee, where is the non-waxed Carnivore (same bullet at same velocity) to compare the "change" ... oh yes, as above, same bullet at 1500 fps did not even open up?

quote:

As for the home boy wax filling of the carnivore nose, that is interesting.
Lessee, where is the non-waxed Carnivore (same bullet at same velocity) to compare the "change" ... oh yes, as above, same bullet at 1500 fps did not even open up?

RIP

Good Point. Here is close;

No Wax Filled Cavity Impact 1740 fps




Waxed Cavity slightly lesser velocities



At near the same velocity no real difference at all, with the exception of the wax pushing the petals out away from center.

Possible only advantage to waxing would be very low velocity impacts?

As a Thin Skinned Dangerous Game Bullet, low velocity impacts are not really a big concern. One does not shoot these animals at longer ranges, or should not be doing so anyway! Especially LION, that will be close range, less than 50, and running at any reasonable big bore velocity one should have shear and reaction with the bullets at that range easy, leopard the same, big bears the same as well.

Michael

Well then:
Wax-filled cavity: That's for a "Brazilian."
Right now the nips, er uh, tips are more interesting.

OK so how did the wax filled do at full velocity?

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
OK so how did the wax filled do at full velocity?

Did not test full velocity with the wax. Currently first, more interested if the wax can induce shear at below shear velocity without the wax, then might move upwards to full velocity test.

Nips and Tips! Yeah! HEH..... Speaking of tips, will be testing Raptors this week, with tips added just to make sure. Received the last of the 130 Raptor prototypes, (now production) Friday, along with tips to test. So that is #1 Priority on the test schedule this week. I expect all to be well with the tests, but gotta test to know for sure!

I have word of BBW#13 Successes coming from Lionhunter, which has returned safe from his adventures, but I am not at liberty to post the success, I am waiting for him to recover from travel and hopefully he will post it himself! His hunting partner was also successful with lion and elephant, although not because of the bullet! He was not able to use BBW#13s in his rifle as he did not have time to work with the loads before leaving in his rifle. He used "Other" bullets for his adventure, and claims failure in both, and in fact the solids he used for elephant actually broke! A soft used for lion did not expand at all! While animals are dead and he was lucky, it's still a failure to consistently perform, and the very next one used could spell disaster! Consistency is a component of Success or Failure, regardless of the outcome of any one circumstance! Remember that when someone tells you, how can it be a failure, the animal is dead? I call BS on that statement, although it's true to an extent, it's not the point! We have all seen that statement over and over, and could possibly even said it ourselves at one time or another! I am not at liberty to speak about the specific failures, although I would readily do so, it's not my place to do so. I am asking that either Lionhunter or his hunting partner do so for us!

Also still waiting on the big elephant success with a 500 Nitro and BBW#13 Solids! It's a great story, but have been sworn to no comment until an article is written and completed! So anyway.....Success is there!

Michael

Michael,

My buddy Jim is in Zim right now shooting a bull elephant hopefully and he is using a 450NE with #13s so I hope he gives us a report soon. He may also be shooting buffalo with non cons.

Sam

OHBOY! Another Zim Jumbo taken by Jim.
This is really going to bring Jim Zumbo to mind.
No .223 CEB for Jim Zumbo!

Even the luddites have to admit a brass FN solid is the ultimate solid.
The brass hollowpoints may take a while yet to catch on with the luddites.
Piling up the success stories might help save luddite lives, eventually.
Bullet failures: success or disaster on the kill shot needs better odds than 50:50, aye.

I wonder if Saeed would consider a brass Walterhog?
His copper Walterhogs for the .375/404 perform just like NonCons,
but he uses copper lightning rod material to turn his bullets from,
so giving up that little bit of "thunder mystique" will not be easy for him, I reckon.

Hello to all MIB members and associates. A while back, I promised Michael that I would give a report on by buffalo hunt which has now just been completed.

All the goings-on with the Raptors, Carnivors, Copper Pointy Things, etc. make my report seem quite mundane but, as I said, I promised so here it is.

Early this year, I bought a Merkel double in 450/400 3". In spite of a great deal of effort and some assistance from Michael, the only bullets I could get up here in Canada in time for the hunt in September were the Hornady DGX and the Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilized solids. I know there is another thread dealing with the DGX, but I decided to post here.

I am not making a hunt report, just a bullet performance report. By my chrono, the Hornady factory load GGX gave 2,000 fps. My hand loads were clocked at 2150 fps.

The buffalo bull was standing, facing us, with body very slightly quartering at about 35 yards. The first shot (DGX) was low into the chest, taking out the top part of the heart. As he turned to my right and started to run off, I got another DGX a bit too far back and high into the shoulder. He ran about 40 yards, fell, tried to get up, then fell again and gave the death bellow. As we approached to about 20 yards, I shot into his back end with a solid. This bullet was recovered in near-perfect condition under the skin of the chest, having traveled the full length of the body. The final shot was at about 10 yards with a solid to the spine between the shoulders.

Only the one bullet was recovered, in spite of considerable effort by the skinners. I believe that most or all of the other bullets stopped in the paunch and were thus discarded. No bullets exited.

I realize that my report would be much more useful if more bullets were recovered, particularly the DGX bullets, but that was not possible.

As an aside, the day before I had shot a large Zebra with a DGX. It was standing broadside at about 45 yards. The bullet passed through, breaking both shoulders and destroying the heart.

Hugh