quote:

Just to clarify, there is more than a 1 grain difference between the .338 Lapua Magnum and the .416 Rigby, of course.
It is more like a 15 grain difference in gross water capacity.

My mistake. The article said the "powder holding" cylinder was 1 mm shorter. BIG difference.

Manufacturing variances are facinating to me as I worked with six sigma a great deal. Getting those system caused variations to tighten up is a continuous challenge.



IBT

If you all wantCNC turned brass bullets, any design, just let me know.-Rob

Rob!
Very kind of you!
Thanks!
A Walterhog morphed from copper .375-cal/300-gr to brass .500-cal/500-gr ... I already have the pencil drawing from way back ...

Or any Nohbozo design you like:
.500 caliber
500-grains
Alloy 385 halfhard free machining brass

A matching hollowpoint Hexploder and FN solid would be nice.

Of course I will be going through whatever can be found at CEB and North Fork, and whatever 500-grain .500-caliber pistol bullets ...

I'd be happy to program and make any design you guys would like. I have always been a big proponent of the .500 and have lots of machine time available. I've made lots of .510 bore riders and a .500 is a piece of cake. You send me a design I' ll make it.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
If you all want CNC turned brass bullets, any design, just let me know.-Rob

Thats a very generous offer Rob.. Thanks..

My vote is for supersizing the 416 Barrett bullet up to .500"

Hey Rob,
What do you think of this pencil sketch ?

Rip-Nice design! I'll pgrm it this weekend and see what it looks like. -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Hey Rob,
What do you think of this pencil sketch ?

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Rip-Nice design! I'll pgrm it this weekend and see what it looks like. -Rob

RIP/ROB,

I know a “bore-rider” bullet design gives the perception that the shank is bore diameter – but would there be any potential benefit to reduce the 0.490” shank diameter dimensions to a 0.488” shank diameter dimensions relative to “+/- tolerance” production issues with the bullet shank diameter and the barrel bore diameter?

Rob,
Should you decide to accept this mission,
a brass .500-caliber/500-grain "soft,"
please feel free to modify the WalterPig however you like.
That rear section of the bullet where it tapers from .5000" down to .4900":
A fifth driving band could go there instead of the taper, and/or you could make it a bore-riding flat base or whatever boat tail you like. Rebated?
This bullet borrows heavily from the Walterhog, Saeed's .375/300-grainer in copper.

Hollow Point Nose Hole: Round or hexagonal?
I am ignorant about that aspect of manufacturing.

Jim,
Regarding the bore-riding diameter.
My Pac-Nor barrel is bored .491", so .490" is small enough for a monometal brass or copper bullet. No smaller please.
Infact make that tolerance 0.4900" + .0005", please.
Groove diameter = bullet diameter = .5000"

I should go calculate the weight of a .5" diameter and 1 inch long cylinder of Brass Alloy 385.
That might make a good solid, if it will feed.

Good luck finding 385 brass in rem quantity.

In 360 you're about 422 grains.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Rob,
Should you decide to accept this mission,
a brass .500-caliber/500-grain "soft,"
please feel free to modify the WalterPig however you like.
That rear section of the bullet where it tapers from .5000" down to .4900":
A fifth driving band could go there instead of the taper, and/or you could make it a bore-riding flat base or whatever boat tail you like. Rebated?
This bullet borrows heavily from the Walterhog, Saeed's .375/300-grainer in copper.

Hollow Point Nose Hole: Round or hexagonal?
I am ignorant about that aspect of manufacturing.

Jim,
Regarding the bore-riding diameter.
My Pac-Nor barrel is bored .491", so .490" is small enough for a monometal brass or copper bullet. No smaller please.
Infact make that tolerance 0.4900" + .0005", please.
Groove diameter = bullet diameter = .5000"

I should go calculate the weight of a .5" diameter and 1 inch long cylinder of Brass Alloy 385.
That might make a good solid, if it will feed.

Hi RIP,
nice design ! Would do it from UNSC 36000 same stuff/alloy we call ECOBRASS i´m making my 330grs "MIG"´s from.(.375Cal.) Good to mashine, and easialy to be coated using hBN. VERY little fouling in barrels.

Best
2RECON

10-4 RIP

quote:

Originally posted by 2RECON:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Rob,
Should you decide to accept this mission,
a brass .500-caliber/500-grain "soft,"
please feel free to modify the WalterPig however you like.
That rear section of the bullet where it tapers from .5000" down to .4900":
A fifth driving band could go there instead of the taper, and/or you could make it a bore-riding flat base or whatever boat tail you like. Rebated?
This bullet borrows heavily from the Walterhog, Saeed's .375/300-grainer in copper.

Hollow Point Nose Hole: Round or hexagonal?
I am ignorant about that aspect of manufacturing.

Jim,
Regarding the bore-riding diameter.
My Pac-Nor barrel is bored .491", so .490" is small enough for a monometal brass or copper bullet. No smaller please.
Infact make that tolerance 0.4900" + .0005", please.
Groove diameter = bullet diameter = .5000"

I should go calculate the weight of a .5" diameter and 1 inch long cylinder of Brass Alloy 385.
That might make a good solid, if it will feed.

Hi RIP,
nice design ! Would do it from UNSC 36000 same stuff/alloy we call ECOBRASS i´m making my 330grs "MIG"´s from.(.375Cal.) Good to mashine, and easialy to be coated using hBN. VERY little fouling in barrels.

Best
2RECON

ECOBRASS

Hard, low machinability rating, poor lubricity. (technically a silicon bronze)

Rob, Jay, Michael,
Any consensus possible on specific brass alloy and source?
If a 1/2" rod is right on the tolerance,there will be very little waste in making .500-calber bullets.
I will do a red pencil addition to the above drawing, later tonight, make it a flat base, a little longer base, with one or two more driving bands ...
Call that one the WalterBob, as in "Sponge Bob Square Pants." Pants of square brass alloy.
Calculate the weight of that one?
Re-do the S&H .395/310-grain VHX as a .500/500-grain VHX?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Rob, Jay, Michael,
Any consensus possible on specific brass alloy and source?
If a 1/2" rod is right on the tolerance,there will be very little waste in making .500-calber bullets.
I will do a red pencil addition to the above drawing, later tonight, make it a flat base, a little longer base, with one or two more driving bands ...
Call that one the WalterBob, as in "Sponge Bob Square Pants." Pants of square brass alloy.
Calculate the weight of that one?
Re-do the S&H .395/310-grain VHX as a .500/500-grain VHX?

Ron,

If Rob PM's me, I will get him the low-down on where to get what we use. They'll sell him a stick and UPS it to him in about a day. 1/2" is too small to machine a .5000" net part even if the bar stock was a hair over which it's not gonna be. 9/16" is mo-betta, gives the tooling something to chew on rather than just smudging off some bazillionth of material. Better tolerance and finish thattaway. I can forward a .500" x 500 grain VHX print to you or Rob if that's what you wanna make.

Jay, thanks for the input.
I would love to see your idea of an S&H .500/500gr VHX.
You always seem to be right-on for bullet weights calculated from drawings.
Do you do that in your head or use a slide rule?

Using the 0.307 lbs/cubic inch density of the C360,
a 1-inch tall cylinder of 1/2" diameter has a weight of 422 grains to the nearest grain.
What a coincidence! Same as what you calculated for the 1.5"-long WalterPig, HPBT.
Thanks again for that input.

A 0.2"-tall cylinder of 0.5" diameter weighs 84 grains.

I have added a length of 0.160" to the WalterPig base, filled in the boattail with a flat base, and some of that fill-in extends for more than a 0.2" run noseward from the base.
I figure, with my abacus, that the new WalterBob design is going to be very close to 500 grains.
If Rob builds it, might as well call it the WalterRob.

Jay- PM sent. I'll need to make some minor changes but no boggy. -Rob

What are your thoughts about making all the bands 30 thou
3 or 4 on top
One on the rear as a gasket
Minimal bearing surface.

BS,
Similar to CEB band spacing only narrower bands?



www.cuttingedgebullets.com

I like my bands better.
0.040" is 1 mm, i want to be able to see the bands!
Uniform spacing and width of bands over the entire shank would be fine by me.
I think the bearing-surface-reduction thing is overblown. I prefer mor leeway in crimping ponts with better neck tension offered by more bands and no expanse of naked shaft.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Jay- PM sent. I'll need to make some minor changes but no boggy. -Rob

Gottit n bakatya

I am sure Rob and Jay could come up with something better on the bands than that CEB, but the CEB might do in a pinch.
460 grains and how long ... about 1.3"?
If only it had more bands ... and weighed 500 grains ...

Well I don't see any reason to be over bearing lol
Just need to make it spin, be accurate and block the blow by and crimp
Well maybe some bands like GSC
Lots and thin.

quote:

Do you do that in your head or use a slide rule?

Solar powered abacus, a .05mm Gel Pen, legal pad, and a secret formula. More accurate than any CAD program but not exactly quick.

quote:

think the bearing-surface-reduction thing is overblown.

RIP

Thanks! HEH HEH...... I did a test on the CEBs with 8 bands, and 4 bands. The 4 band bullet in brass gave an average of 7000 PSI less than the 8 band bullets. In copper the 4 band only averaged 4500 PSI less than the 8 band.

4500-7000 PSI is not a lot, but enough when at top end pressures the way I look at it. A little leeway when at the top end.

quote:

If only it had more bands ... and weighed 500 grains ...

Now exactly what is that extra 40 grs going to do for you, when you will already be at 30-35 inches penetration with the velocity you are capable of? Compared to 24 inches for a .458 Swift A at 2250 fps? Remember, NonCons like velocity as well?

Brass Material?? Out of my area? More in J and Robs area of expertise!


WOULD LOVE TO HAVE--some of your new bullets to test when done????? Always room here for a new bullet!!!

M

If 8 bands are to much…as indicated by Michael’s testing but 4 bands are to few, the why not compromise and use 5 bands – one at the base and 4 up top but using the CEB BBW #13 NE spacing (rather than the standard 3 up spacing) which should give plenty of seating options.

Just a thought…

Doc M, and Jim,
I have those sample .500-cal bullets MIB sent, thank you very much.
They go up to 540 grains in copper FN solids.
I am really hoping to get 500 grains in brass.
That is Non-Con enough for me.
I will photograph and measure the bullet lengths to post here.
That will be easier than trying to find them on your 147-page thread, but I might do that too.

Thinner bands and more of them! Just as good as four fat bands for pressure relief.

Anyway, what is a mere few thousand psi when I have an M70 and Lapua brass?
I want to get pressures up with less powder to get the velocity I need.
I don't want to have to be adding more powder when using the slippery bullets!

I also have a 3.6" magazine length. and 2.65" brass length. I can use up to 0.9" length of pointy bullet nose, or limit it to 0.7" if that makes the FNs feed better.

I really need the full length of shank banded, yes, GSC has it figured right.

Thin bands and more of them!
That will keep pressures down as well as the 4 fat bands, three at top and one at bottom.

The GSC type bands makes for best usefulness in all firearms, double or bolts.
Low pressure and multiple crimping sites if one must crimp.

If you don't crimp, you still need the bands for neck tension at various seating depths!!!

North Fork's early solids had sparse bands more to front, less to rear.
Mike Brady soon added more bands.

The totally grooved shank of the soft points from North Fork are still my all time favorites.
Excellent neck tension at any seating depth, crimped or noncrimped.

The S&H bands like shark fins in profile are great too, minimal bearing, make a great crimp, evenly spaced and covering the available length of the shank. Ideal!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
2RECON,
I like the .500/.338 Lapua Magnum idea.
It is the only ".500" that could possibly interest my jaded tastes now.
Will it be headstamped ".500 Tornado" or "12.7mm Tornado" ???

It will certainly give Lazzeroni's "12.04 Bibamufu" a run for the money.

Did anyone ever get any "9.5 Tornado" or ".375 Tornado" headstamped brass made?

Hi Ron, i´ve an order at HORNEBER Brass for 2000 cases stamped 9,5x70. Will get them AFTER Michael458 got his MDM´s. If you are interested let me know.

Best
2RECON

Michael,
I surely am interested in some of that 9.5x70 Tornado brass. Horneber is excellent!
Keep me posted.
I will add that engraving to my .375/.338 Lapua barrel: 9.5x70 Tornado
I'll get Redding dies made to fit it.

That .375 Tornado has the same capacity as Saeed's .375/404, so it is bound to be just as magical, especially with Horneber or Lapua brass.

Hey! You don't have to ream out the dreaded donuts on that proper Horneber brass, eh?
Excellent!

quote:

Hi Ron, i´ve an order at HORNEBER Brass for 2000 cases stamped 9,5x70. Will get them AFTER Michael458 got his MDM´s. If you are interested let me know.

Michael

Any chance that maybe the last few days have found out something I did not know as of our brief communications a day or so ago? Curious of course--also very much hoping that brass comes in soon before leaving for RSA and Zim?

quote:

I have those sample .500-cal bullets MIB sent, thank you very much.

RIP
Can't remember what I have sent to you--if I have not sent something, let me know, I will get it on the way Monday???

quote:

what is a mere few thousand psi when I have an M70 and Lapua brass?

Very Much true!

quote:

Thin bands and more of them!
That will keep pressures down as well as the 4 fat bands, three at top and one at bottom.

Yes, in most cases. Of course this is why I am still a North Fork fan as well, or one of the lesser reasons to be honest. But still a reason. In all of the .500s the North Fork 450s and 375s have shown an extreme lesser pressure actually than most all others of like weight, even in some cases the CEBs. Moving down in caliber however I have seen lesser effect of this? In 458, 416, 9.3 that has been tested pretty through, have not experienced that decrease in pressures over same weight in others? Totally convinced bore diameter is a major factor here, as I have seen it in other factors as well.

Also still with the 3 bands topside on the CEBs,have had no issues in neck tension with the CEBs, even in some of the short neck B&Ms, no crimps.

At any rate, anything I got here, that you don't have, or need more of to work with--let me know, I don't recall what I did yesterday, much less what I have sent out to you already? Also, when you get this new bullet done--I WANT SOME PLEASE! We can put it through the paces of course! Terminals, pressures, this, that, the other! LOL......

Michael

Doc M,
Here are the sample bullets from MIB, .500-caliber, I weighed and measured them:



That 510-grain Brass BBW-13 FN (at bottom of picture above) is a beauty. For a solid, I like that best. And only 1.318" long.
Has Shark Fin Bands too!
I would not want to beg anymore off you, but wonder if any are for sale anywhere?

That copper hollow point of 470 grains weight (at top of picture) would do nicely for a soft. It is only 1.299" long. SSK? For sale?

Here is a technology assisted drawing of the WalterBob bullet, thanks to 2RECON, "Michael the German." Much appreciated!
Makes me think I ought to actually try to calculate the weight myself, since it is 1.660" long. I'm still hoping for 500 grain softs and solids.




And for a look at the UNSC 36000 (Eccobrass) machinability, look at these bullets 2RECON is making:




.375/330-grain MIG in a .375 Tornado, bullet and loaded .375 Tornado. 2RECON hits man-sized targets at 1600 yards with them.
There is some sort of powder in the grooves on the .375, a treatment I am not fsmiliar with.

Other bullets to right of .375 Lapua/ 9.5x70mm Tornsdo:
.408, .510-cals for 50 BMG
and a .700-caliber projectile to be wildcatted into a 50 BMG case.

More to come ...

RIP

All concerning .500 calibers shown;

The 510 gr BBW#13 must be one of the undercut samples that Sam sent to you. I don't think I have that as a prototype from CEB. I do have some 8 band prototypes with .050 bands--I think. I will get that supply off to you, if I can find them-How many? Don't know. But you are welcome to them as I don't use those. I suppose you could send that to Dan at CEB and get him to make a run for you! Would not be that big a deal.

The SSK/Lehigh 470 Copper HP--6 blades. That's what I used in Australia on the buffalo in the 500 MDM that was a BIG HAMMER at 2400 fps. Impacts under 50 yds sheared the blades, made one hell of an impression on buffalo, as to the effect of drop in their tracks impression! I have a personal supply of those, not sure how many. I also last fall received a run of the same bullet in brass, 450 grs, does very good on the shear, but waited 6 damned months on them from Lehigh as well. Not something I am willing to do any more.

The multi band 510 gr copper is a CEB--great bullet for terminals of course, but I don't like the bands at all, Kinda ugly, some higher pressures. I have a supply of 400 or more left of these.

The 514 or so is a SSK/Lehigh Copper, excellent bullet, wonderful terminals, shot several buffalo and two elephants with this bullet, the only thing better in terminals is the BBW#13. Copper, seems to run higher pressures than the BBW#13 of course. More bearing surface as well. Not sure how many of those I have left????

the 550 SSK/Lehigh designed originally for the 500 MDM--Excellent bullet, nose profile, but upon discovery of the BBW#13 I see little need for it, I have a supply of 400+ of those left, I think? Maybe 300?

I have been thinking (when I get some slack range Time) to have CEB make a 550 BBW#13-brass and matching NonCon for the 500 MDM--couple of things that interest me--just how far can I take the 500 MDM with a good 550 gr bullet at the top of the list. Terminals between the 550 at top velocity and the 500 at top velocity another thing that interests me some as well. I dont' think there would be much difference, and as for field operations really a moot point--but I do have that rather curious nature about me, so I must find out, but I can wait until I get caught up on more important issues. I think I can probably top 2350-2400 fps with a 550 BBW#13 in the 500 MDM. Another thing I would like to know is pressure traces between this 550 Lehigh copper, and the 550 BBW#13? I have not run traces on the 550 Lehigh, has not been a priority yet. ????

I can't believe I did not send more than this to you? Getting a care package together for you this week.

Michael

@michael458,

told a frend,BIG customer of D.Horneber to put some pressure on him, at least enough to let you know how far he´s done........

@RIP,1600 yes, but METERS, only a little difference
The white "stuff" in the grooves/driving bands is hBN left from coating the bullets. Works MUTCH MUTCH better than Moly.

Best
2RECON

Doc M,
Thanks for the offer, but please let me pay for any bullets you want to part with of the .500 caliber type. No urgency here, I have too many distractions to hobby on schedule.

2RECON,
I was ignorant of the "Hex Boron Nitride." Getting educated now.
And yes, make that 1600 meters, not yards, for your successful targeting with the .375 Tornado.

Rob,
I overdid it on the last bullet drawing.
I used my solar powered abacus this time.
Here is the "WalterRob" bullet.
It has only six bands and a bigger gap between the last two bands.
If you decide to accept this mission, I think this one will be close to 500 grains.
Fine tune or modify to your heart's content.
How much do you think they will cost per bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by 2RECON:
@michael458,

told a frend,BIG customer of D.Horneber to put some pressure on him, at least enough to let you know how far he´s done........
Best
2RECON

2Recon

Thank you very much! I just hope not TOO much pressure--Never forgot what you told me last fall! HEH....So I have been ("Kissing ) so as to not get DHorneber on the wrong side of me! LOL....

I will say, I have two months before leaving for Zim, I would give a left side of me scrawnies to get my hands on that Horneber 500 MDM and be able to have it in Zim. I also hope that we were able to get the point across about the dimensions of 500 MDM as well--Basic straight RUM will be perfect.

Thanks


RIP

You are welcome, think nothing of it, but you are way behind, as I have a care package already boxed up, and labeled leaving on Fed Ex Monday! You must not "Dilly Dally" and get this .500 up and running! No pay--I am only sending a few samples that you did not have is all! HEH HEH HEH...........


Well, gonna go drink a liter of Sake here shortly, have to find some new shoes as well, of course I have 5 pairs, all exactly the same, in stock. Busted out of mine two days ago, being held together with "Duct Tape", so figure if I go out, I will have to get into my new stock shoes!

I will let you know how the Sake was! Maybe a little over a liter!

Michael

@michael458, see what i can do......mayby doing the pressure step by step...think the shipping will need about 2weeks, so the brass should be out...mid april ????

@RIP,

thinking about asking Horneber to make some cylindrical 338Lapua ones.....would be easy to get this in a row with the 9,5x70...not too mutch changing tools. Another Headstamp and done.. .49-10

Best
2RECON

2RECON,
Cylindrical Lapua brass: I like that idea too.
Headstamp: .49-10
Excellent!
"The .49-bore of 2010" aka 49/.338 Lapua Magnum.
Yep, reamer was born in July 2010.
Make that the "490+010" headstamp for a clue as to bullet calliber.
Shortened cylindrical Rigby brass will do also, like jeffeosso uses in the 500AccRel.

I plan to start off by fireforming new .338 LM brass fit the .500-cal bullets on the second firing.






Doc M,
I ordered some CEB bullets, for initial loads.
.500-cal/500-grain Brass BBW-13 FN is the right weight for my tastes, and the .500/460-grain Hollow point brass NonCon is the same length.
Those will do.
Sort of like the 450-grain and 420-grain combo for the .458 B&M.
I have loaded 10 shots each of those, for chrono and accuracy, but did not get to shoot yet. used your MIB AA2520 load data, pressure tested.

RIP

Excellent--in addition you will be getting some of those wide spaced prototype 4 band bullets, good for testing loads, and making brass, or lesser duties. I got excited, over ordered those first ones, quickly discovered I needed bands at the top to keep the bullet lined up straight. Accuracy not good on those wide spaced bands in my 50 B&M--good in the 500 MDM--depends on seating depth. I sent some to you to shoot up, get rid of, use for load data, or other minimal duties such as that.

First class accuracy from the 3+1 bands.

Yes, the 500 BBW#13 Solid, matched with it's 460 NonCon HP is very good, and exactly like the 450/420 in 458. You will like them--I am using them starting in June and we will see how they all do in the 500 MDM and the 458 B&M on buffalo! Data on 458 B&M is good--shooting those same loads-compressed, yes, but no issues!

Michael

An embarassment of riches arrived at my house yesterday.
Wife gave me hell for a while about ordering near 50 pounds or $2000 worth of bullets.
She shut up when I told her I didn't do it,
that the mad scientist, Doc M, who wears black lab coats did it!
I was just flabbergasted by it all.
I reckon I won't have any urgent need of .500-caliber bullets for some time, yet to come:

RIP

Well, like I said above, a good part of that bulk you received are the wide spaced bands BBW#13s, where I got somewhat carried away with that order. Accuracy not so hot with that configuration, so they are good for load data, lesser duties. You are doing me a favor getting them off my shelves so I can replace them with the 3+1 band bullets!

Michael