quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

A la Doc M's MIB extractor headspacing research:

Using the extractor of a Winchester M70 and the rimless-rim of the case for headspace on fireforming:
Just touch off a standard .338LM in a 49-10 chamber.

The .500/.338 Lapua Magnum brass that results ends up 2.707" long.
This extends well beyond the max spec brass length of 2.657", trim to 2.647".
You can see that the fireformed case extends beyond the chamber case mouth, which is about 0.012" longer than the max brass length.
Chamber minimum: 2.669"
Brass maximum: 2.657"

Ron,

The CIP maximum case length for the .338 Lapua Magnum is 2.724”, what is the factory case length of the .338 Lapua Magnum ammunition that you used for your fireforming? Just trying to deduce whether there was any chance in the case length during fireforming.

Thanks,

NOt having played the above games, I wonder about the barrel results. Does fire-forming damage the rifling, assuming that the projectile bounces its way down the barrel and may hit the rifling at funny angles and considerable speed down the tube?

I suppose that one could fire-form Lapua in a 500 AccRel, too. But one probably wouldn't be able to stamp them 500AccRel/338 Lapua because of printing space on the Lapua-stamped rounds.

Most definitely a good question to ask! We are definitely in a new arena with this issue. We’ve transcended the “historical knowledge” requirements of seating from the shoulder, rim, or in certain cases a belt as proven by Michael with his 50 B&M, 50 B&M SA, and 50 B&M SS…all of which seat off the extractor…very successfully I might add.

So now we’re in the arena of using a loaded smaller caliber cartridge to fireform brass for a derivative case larger caliber wildcat…using the extractor for cartridge seating purposes. Obviously it was a successful endeavor as demonstrated by the fired cases. Plus it didn’t appear to adversely impact the barrel's accuracy when using the fireformed brass with correct caliber bullets…as demonstrated by the displayed targets.

It does make one wonder, “What are the chances that a .338 caliber bullet will exit a .500 caliber barrel without touching the grooving vis-à-vis impacting the grooving one or more times?” And if it clears the rifling, “What is the required caliber difference to assure full clearance?”

Most definitely interesting!

quote:

Originally posted by 2RECON:
@RIP,

ok, check it out and let ya know....where´s the problem ??

Please let me know what the Hornady Guy´s answer.Got some of Michael458 "50"-Dies of Hornady Brand. REALY nice made........

Best
2RECON

Michael in Germany,2RECON:
Sorry I let this thread slip by.
About the L2 dimension in your CIP-like drawing:
You have 55.54mm(2.186").
The drawing I show above has been computer assisted, by RCBS.Load Cartridge Designer.
L2 has to be 2.2215" with a 20-degree shoulder, given the correct L1 for the cartridge, 2.161" or 54.90mm, same as for the .338 Lapua magnum.
Your LI is correct, L2 needs correction.

Ben Syring at Hornady is in charge of custom dies now.
He is a champ, it may be October 2011 before the "49-10" dies are ready.
They are busy there.
Must be all those B&M die orders creating the backlog.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

A la Doc M's MIB extractor headspacing research:

Using the extractor of a Winchester M70 and the rimless-rim of the case for headspace on fireforming:
Just touch off a standard .338LM in a 49-10 chamber.

The .500/.338 Lapua Magnum brass that results ends up 2.707" long.
This extends well beyond the max spec brass length of 2.657", trim to 2.647".
You can see that the fireformed case extends beyond the chamber case mouth, which is about 0.012" longer than the max brass length.
Chamber minimum: 2.669"
Brass maximum: 2.657"

Ron,

The CIP maximum case length for the .338 Lapua Magnum is 2.724”, what is the factory case length of the .338 Lapua Magnum ammunition that you used for your fireforming? Just trying to deduce whether there was any chance in the case length during fireforming.

Thanks,

Jim,
The Lapua-brand .338 Lapua Magnum new/unfired brass was a very uniform 2.717" long before fireforming, with a hot loaded 200-grain Nosler ballistic tip .338/200-grain bullet.
I was surprised it came out as long as it did, only shortened about 0.010", from 2.717" to 2.707".
The .338 Lapua Magnum has a huge amount of case body taper, and a 20-degree shoulder.
When you straighten out the body to minimum taper, that allows some growth in length that gets used up little by the blow out at the shoulder, and neck, I reckon.
A straight line is shorter than the diagonal/hypotenuse to the base of the triangle,
if you get my drift.

Apparently military shooters in Australia discard .338 Lapua Magnum brass by the 5-gallon bucketful, after one firing.
That case body taper makes it slick feeding if ever used in full auto, an original design requirement for military apps. Allso may make it more prone to stretching.

Minimum taper of the "49-bore/.500-caliber/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved of 2010" (aka 49-10) will reduce bolt thrust and case stretching.
I might get more than one firing out of the 49-10 fireformed cases.

Overall, my method works very well, and no "dreaded donuts" to fuss with.
Brass comes out long enough to give a uniform trim, perfect necks.
Uniform, thick, strong necks result.
No losses to splits.
perfect so far ...
Thanks for asking.

416Tanzan,
I am not at all worried about skitterring a soft cup&core gilding-jacketed bullet of .338 caliber down my .500-caliber Pac-Nor stainless barrel.
About like fireforming with cornmeal.
I have long done the skittering method with other wildcats, no problems.

This does leave a lot of unburned powder in the barrel, which I have to dry-patch out between shots.

Maybe I will just seat a 50-caliber lead ball (Hornady .495" diameter weighing about 180 grains?)
on top of a lesser amount of faster powder, and not have to patch-out the barrel between shots.
Might have to clean out some lead fouling then.

That might be a step toward pistol powder and cornmeal fireforming, but jeffeosso had poor results with Lapua .338 LM brass in his 500 AccRel.

The Lapua .338LM brass is heavy, thick, strong, and needs a good oomph! to fireform properly,
flawlessly.

That good Winchester extractor helps: McCourry Institute of Ballistics Principles

When I get those Hornady reloading dies I will whack off some .416 Rigby basic cylindrical brass and size it down in one step, like butter as jeffeosso does with the 500 AccRel.
I'll save that for medium pressure loads, 60 K psi max.

Hey RIP, Thanks for the explanation.

quote:

Apparently military shooters in Australia discard .338 Lapua Magnum brass by the 5-gallon bucketful, after one firing.
That case body taper makes it slick feeding if ever used in full auto, an original design requirement for military apps. Allso may make it more prone to stretching.

Minimum taper of the "49-bore/.500-caliber/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved of 2010" (aka 49-10) will reduce bolt thrust and case stretching.
I might get more than one firing out of the 49-10 fireformed cases.

Obviously you need to buddy up with someone close to those military shooters in Australia – perhaps get a few buckets of once fired .338 Lapua Magnum brass on the cheap!
Heck, the Lapua case taper and shoulder angle are better than the 30-06 and ’06 brass can be reloaded far more than a couple of times…but yes the straighter case taper on your 49-10 should add to the count.

quote:

Apparently military shooters in Australia discard .338 Lapua Magnum brass by the 5-gallon bucketful,

I'll take a couple gallons of those, too.

May I ask if this 500 Tornado or 49-10 is in
www.ammoguide.com
(using a .49 cal bullet I think - but even if it's
using a .500 cal bullet) If it's there I missed it.

I'd like to see the difference between it and
the 500 AccRel if it's necked down to .49 cal.

Jack,



(above "49-10" cartridge drawing from RCBSload.com Cartridge Creator tool ... compare to the "500 AccRel" below)




Posted again from previous page is what you need regarding cartridge drawings.
Rip's 49-10 uses a .500 caliber bullet, jeffeosso's 500 Accrel uses a .510-caliber bullet.

Rip is the authority on the 49-10.

Rip's full designation, like in the title of this thread, is:
"49-bore/.500-caliber/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved of 2010"
shortened to 49-10.

Some things can only be found at accuratereloading.com which is the biggest and best resource for such things on the web.
Just look and read ...

Rip has not entered the 49-10 at ammoguide.com.
I (Rip) have entered the 500 Mbogo and .395 Tatanka.

The 500 Mbogo was a stellar success in all regards of feeding in a CZ 550 Magnum, and compatibility of Quality Cartridge brass, Redding reloading dies, and Dave Manson chamber reamer.

The .395 Tatanka was great too until I got a soft batch of brass from Quality Cartridge in October 2010, 2 weeks before heading off to Tanzania with Saeed.
No one even checked the headstamps anywhere along the way.
But I thought I had to use proper headstamps.

That is why I had to hammer the Dakota 76 bolt open with my hand after each shot.
Previous loads with Hornady and Norma .416 Rigby brass had worked fine, despite my rough chamber in the breech end.

Rusty McGee did not chamber that one, but he has since polished the chamber for me.
Just venting.
2010 was the best of years in most ways for me, just bad in a few little details.

Riding around with Walter and sharing a tent with him for 4 weeks, caused me to vow to do two more oddball cartridges:
49-10 and .395 H&H
The latest one is a 404/.416 Rigby Improved Plus,
and it is just a cleanup of the .423/.338 Lapua Magnum I did several years ago on that same Dakota 76 African action that became the .395 Tatanka.
That barrel is going back on the Dakota, and the .395 Tatanka barrel is going on a CZ 550 magnum.

I will someday get all of these listed and loads added to them at ammoguide.com:

.395/400 Nitro Express Aboriginal (10.03x75R)
.395 H&H Magnum
.395 Ruger Max
398 Lapua Magnum
.395 Tatanka
404 RIP
49-10
500 Mbogo

I could also add my versions of:

.375/.338 Lapua Magnum (same as 9.5 Tornado in Germany)
and
.458/.338 Lapua Magnum

Thanks for asking.

OK, I don't know how I forgot about these
two drawings on on the prior page; it's not
like I have not read through all these pages
a few times already. Thanks for your indul-
gence!

Thanks, RIP, for steering me back to this page.

I hadn't pulled those pictures down and placed them in a file, yet. Now I've done so, and reread. (I don't know why typing in 'case diagram' blocked that thread in 'find'.)

BTW,
those are pretty pictures of blown-out 338 Lapua cases. I did notice the scuffing on the head, but it sounds like Rusty has slicked up your chamber now.

a. what are the 'donuts' that you are happy not to see? Blackened, stretch-cracks/holes in the brass, or thick bright bands around neck/shoulder, or what?

b. during the thread you explained how nice the Lapua brass was, yet you talked about more simply trimming (after cutting down?) some Hornady 416 Rigby brass after you get your 49-10 dies. Would the latter process produce rounds that were good to go as new, or would they still need a first firing?

Question 'b' will end up important for my planning.
I load things up in the US once a year and ferry them over to Africa where components to reuse them are unavailable. Additionally, once the rifle would be in Africa it would be difficult to fireform new brass in the US.

But if the cartridge is good enough it would be worth the hassle, and I figure that bettering 500NE ballistics in a moderate-cost, lighweight, bolt-rifle would be worth it.

Thanks again.

Tan,
A solution to your future case forming issues would be to send 3 fire formed cases to Hornady and have them manufacture one of their Hydraulic Case Forming Dies along with a relating Neck Expanding Die. Then you'll be able to form your wildcat cartridge cases here in the US without the need for your rifle.

Tan,
a. Dreaded donuts are a common phenomenon to wildcatters/reloaders who neck up a case and move shoulder-neck juncture rearward in the process.
Thicker brass from the shoulder area then becomes a "donut" bulge inside the new case neck.
This is treated by inside neck reaming to get a uniform neck thickness down to the new shoulder-neck junction, with no restriction to elevate pressures or jamb tight the new loaded round in the neck of the chamber.
No problem with this with simply fireforming here. No dreaded donut with the 49-10. Makes life simple.

Case scuffing? Please, no problems now or ever.
Some cases get worked and used a lot in all kinds of trials and operations. And I think nothing of showing the cases, scratches and all.
Pretty is the least of my concerns.
I ain't selling anything here.

b. Now I don't care about doing anything but using the Lapua brass. Best of best for the 49-10.
Jeffeosso knows all about using Rigby brass in his 500 AR. Slick and easy as butter, he says.
Cutting it off would be more trouble/less fun than simply fireforming my Lapua brass.
I have not had a single problem with a single case so far.
I don't know why going from .500 to .510 caliber as in his case would be much problem, unless that is some transition zone where brass thinning of the neck is a problem.
I can't see why it would be, as the necks are nice and thick and uniform on the 49-10, and only a short trim to 2.647"-2.657" after fireforming.

The hydraulic forming Jim is talking about is something I don't care to get into either.
Just too simple and fun fireforming, and harmless.

You reload in Africa?
Once made, your tourist hunter weight limit of ammo for one trip will last many years, regarding the brass life.
That is only 5 kilos, 70 to 80 rounds?
.338 Lapua Magnum brass blown out to 49-10 is immortal.

"Scope lightly and carry a big kick and you shall go far."
Theodore Roosevelt, from The Happy Hunting Ground.

quote:

The hydraulic forming Jim is talking about is something I don't care to get into either.
Just too simple and fun fireforming, and harmless.

If I still lived in the desert I'd be 30 minutes from a 300yd abandoned WWII rifle firing range and even closer to a few places that I could just stop to fireform cases.

Now however I live about 1 1/2 hours (travel time on an extremely good day) from the nearest public or membership rifle range or county/state/federal "allowed shooting area". So for me in today's living situation hydraulic case forming is definately a viable option to a 3+ hour drive just to fireform some cases.

quote:

You reload in Africa?

Sometimes. The problem is getting components. I've cannabilized other calibres for powder and primers on rare occasions. Things were easier 20 years ago. Nowadays, transport authorities have re-written the book.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Tan,
A solution to your future case forming issues would be to send 3 fire formed cases to Hornady and have them manufacture one of their Hydraulic Case Forming Dies along with a relating Neck Expanding Die. Then you'll be able to form your wildcat cartridge cases here in the US without the need for your rifle.

what does a hydraulic case forming die cost? Where to read up on them?

I unfortunately wasn’t able to find the Hornady website link for the Hydraulic Form Die Kit. However, here is a link that describes the Hydraulic Form Die Kit:
http://www.accurateshooter.com...c-case-forming-dies/

Current pricing is $170 for a 2.60” or less case length, and $191 for 2.601” to 2.999” case length. I paid $191 for my 49-10 Hydraulic Form Die Kit.

@Jim,

if you have the hydraulic-die please let us see some pictures of them.

Method of fireforming....
When i first read "338Lapua(Factory??)-Ammo firered thoug the .500Diam.Barrel i thought NO WAY !!.
Sitting down, thinking about it......hmmmm why not....ok, but only reloaded Ammo. The prize for factory 338Lapua is simply a joke here.Roughly 6-7$ Shot.

@RIP,

what is the best load so far....Still using CEB BBW#13 ???

Best
2RECON

2RECON,
You do reload don't you?
The price to fire form is the price of the cheapest .338 bullet of 200 grains or heavier, and the price of a full charge of powder and a primer.
This produces very uniform/consistent/perfect dynamics for blowing out the cartridge every time.
The properly fitted M70 extractor (or other proper Claw like Mauser or Ruger), maintains the headspace for the blow to the primer.
Perfect every time.

You just have to dry patch some unburnt powder out of the barrel after each shot.

Once properly formed, a 49-10 (12.7x68) case is "immortal."

No new load data for the 49-10.
It is on my back burner, too many other irons in the fire, 404 RIP, etc., and the weather has not allowed me to shoot that one this weekend.

Waiting for Dies from Hornady.
Waiting for McMillan stock for the M70, 49-10 Rifle No. 1.
Waiting for Rusty McGee to put a Duane Wiebe 6MX+1 box on an FN Mauser for 49-10 Rifle No. 2.

Hobby fun.

Not everyone can be quick and efficient with a vast "compound" with indoor range, like Doc M and Saeed, eh, Jim?

I have sworn off any further wildcatting, again, since the first swearing-off last year did not take.
After the 404 RIP, that's it for me:
404/.416 Rigby Improved Plus, Rest In Peace, Ron In Person, whatever ...
Lot's of hobby fun to go finishing up my current irons in the fire ...

"Everlasting" brass:

quote:

Originally posted by 2RECON:
@Jim,

if you have the hydraulic-die please let us see some pictures of them.

I'm still awaiting my dies from Hornady...but the link in my earlier post has photographs of the die kit components.

Both Ron and Jim and been extremely helpful in clarifying the issues around the 49-10.

Let me explain how things look from the outside, from someone contemplating the building of a poor-man's 500 calibre, lightweight, all-purpose, walkabout rifle. Basically, it boils down to a choice between the 49-10 and the 500 AccRel. The 500 Mbogo (50-08), 500 Jeffrey, and 505 Gibbs are all great cartridges, but need a larger action than the Ruger Hawkeye (=MarkII-standard length?), and quickly generate extra weight and extra costs.

As a base platform I picked up a Hawkeye Alaskan in 375Ruger. It will need the boltface enlarged, though it should not have a problem handling the extra boltface pressure. The rails will also need minor thinning for the slightly larger case of the Rigby over the Ruger.

The big issues for choosing the chamber are brass and bullets.
Barrels appear to be an easy issue. PacNor does a .500" in 12" twist, 6 groove, also a .510" in 9" twist 3-or-8-groove, or 14" 8-groove. McGowen offers a .510" in 10", 12" (6-grooves), and 15" (8-groove). Currently, McGowen only offers .500" in 20" twist, which is a non-starter. I would probably choose a 12" twist in .500", which would mean PacNor, and the same in .510" which would mean McGowen.

My circumstance on brass are problematic. I only get to the US once or twice a year and it might stretch out the building time to unreasonable lengths to build cases from scratch: let's say that I order a barrel this winter. Maybe I get to fire-form some cases next summer. Then they could be sent off to Hornady for a hydraulic die, which probably wouldn't be ready by Nov 2012. Or I could just begin fire-forming about 160 cases (two air-flights to Africa with 80 rounds each), possibly having some of them in place for a Fall hunt in Africa 2013. Besides, the hydraulic die only claims to do "95%" and still expects final fireforming. If so that would add another year to my schedule for getting brass ready. But I'm thinking that 95% may be 'good enough'. Some factory brass in some calibres opens up quite a bit on first firing. I would just need to have two powder charges calculated for 'first-fire' hunting rounds and 'fire-formed' hunting rounds. I already do that with a 338 where the chamber is about .002" wider than SAAMI minimum. It shoots great, sub-MOA, but needs different loads for new and fired brass.

The brass question would favor the 500AccRel, where Qual-cart can already be ordered.
But my concern there is that I need brass that can be rated for 65k PSI. The whole point in choosing a 49-10 or 500AccRel was to use an estimated 60k PSI in hunting loads. Have Quality Cartridge corrected some of those earlier reports of soft, sticking brass below max pressures? Or was that Jamison International? Jamison now makes 505Gibbs brass that is in spec for 408 Cheyenne Tactical, a pretty appealing standard in my book.

So on brass, current ease of preparation and build-time would point to the 500 AccRel, as long as the brass could handle max loads. I do not need 10 or 20 refirings per case, three would be sufficient because of the difficulty in ferrying things to and from Africa. It's easier just to buy new brass, providing that the price is reasonable.

Bullets remains an issue, too, but lead to opposite preferences.
Right now, the 49-10 is out in front of the 500AccRel because of the lightweight CE bullets and the promise of talon tips. Those change the concept of a 49-50 calibre from a 'stopping' rifle to an all-purpose walkabout. At the moment, the only 'all-purpose' type of bullet in .510" is the GSCustom 450 grain, a tad expensive at around $4/bullet when all is said and done. Ron has a great video clip of that bullet in action at "2654 fps". I would expect 2600 fps out of a 500AccRel 22" barrel (maybe 2650 fps would be too hot?). Cutting Edge offers a 535 grain, which would be great on buffalo but a little slow for occasional long antelope shots. It's not clear if talon tips will be offered in .510", or if/how the .500" talon tips will work on the .510". All of this development of the .500" over the .510", of course, is the direct result of Michael McCourey's generous volunteer work. However, it stands to reason that a 450 grain CEB .510" non-con might be offered in the near future. Maybe in time for 2012?

So I still have a month or two for pondering whether to start up the 49-10 path or the 500 AccRel path. Brass vs. bullets.

PS: on the 49-10, Jim Capoward mentioned preparing a reamer for a 2.50" case versus the 49-10 2.65" case. I am inclined to go with the 2.65" since a .500" bullet can use the extra 8-9 grains of capacity.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RIP:
2RECON,
You do reload don't you?
The price to fire form is the price of the cheapest .338 bullet of 200 grains or heavier, and the price of a full charge of powder and a primer.

@RIP,

reloading.....???
About 20+years now. Started with boring stuff like 308Win,8x57, 9,3x62.....build my first "own" Round 7,62UKM about 10 years ago...since this i´m ONLY doing /shooting "Wildcat´s" like the 9,5x70 ("Tornado") a 6,5x25WSSM, a 7mm on a (shortened) 8x68S-Case and REALY looking forward next my first REAL Big one .......49-10 aka 12,7x68.
BTW, you are right.....338LM-Cases NEED a real UUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMPPPPPPPP..to be fireformed. A few grains of a fast burning powder won´t work.
Know this from fireforming UKM Cases that only use the lower 57mm of the case.
And, you are right too, once formed, neck-sized only, and after 5-7 reloads the necks "kissing" a Gas torch it´ll last nearly forever.Have more than 60 reloads in the UKM shooting a 180grs.Bullet at 3250fps....

Best
2RECON

quote:

Barrels appear to be an easy issue. PacNor does a .500" in 12" twist, 6 groove

Pac-Nor's .500 caliber 12" twist barrel is 8 groove.

I currently have a .500 caliber a 9" twist 3 groove barrel on order along with the relating new special order rifling button. I also have the same on order for their 404 (.423 caliber); it also requires a new special order barrel button. Right now this twist/groove combination can be ordered by phone for either caliber and once the buttons are completed they'll be updating their website to note these as a standard production offerings.

Rusty McGee has fitted the Duane Wiebe bottom metal to an FN Mauser that is barreled as a .375/.338WinMag at present, and it is in an old Tupperware stock from about 1987 make ... Butler Creek?

Anyway, it is just a trial, and it worked nicely.
Needs a new barrel and a new stock, and the bolt face needs to be opened up to fit the Lapua Magnum case head ...

Maybe I need to make this one a switch-barrel for both 49-10 and "47LM" ...
Uh-oh, I am weak again, one more wildcat.
I swear for a third time this is the last.
Third time is a charm.
See next thread: 49-10 and 47LM Tornado switch barrel!

"Scope lightly and carry a big kick and you shall go far."
Theodore Roosevelt, from The Happy Hunting Ground.

Michael my German collaborator, 2RECON, says there is some interest in the 49-10/12.7x68 in Germany, and maybe a German magazine article coming on this wildcat.

Rusty McGee, roughone, is finishing up rifle number one, M70 Winchester now, though the various deer seasons, may be taking a toll on shop hours.

McMillan stock and Sunny Hill drop floor plate will make it an easy 3-down-in-box.
McMillan delivered custom-spec-ed stock in 3 months:





3.625" M70 Winchester box length:



And here is that Duane Wiebe bank vault bottom metal for the Mauser 98, rifle number two,
with 3.505" box length:





Just thought I would keep this thread alive for German reference.

@ RIP,

YES, there´ll be an article about that, BUT first i´ve to deliver prove-house tested loads/results under CIP-conditions. A "Wildcat" NO matter how good it is, no matter what performance it delivers, no matter how accurate it is, no one is interested.
The moment you have a prove-house-test - report things change rapidly.......

Best
2RECON

2RECON,
Good on you then!
My loading and shooring informally shall resume on this side of the pond after deer season.

The 49-10 M70 Winchester with McMillan stock and Sunny Hill drop floorplate is assembled!
Slick and pretty, thanks to Rusty McGee.
I don't think I will be able to resist posting pictures.
Should make for some more "CEB Anecdotes" too.

49-10 No.1 Rifle, is almost a Saeed-style hunting rifle: Leupold Scope and no barrel clutter, not even a secondary barrel lug.
I have yet to remove the sling studs.


Rusty Mcgee, roughone, put a slab of stainless steel on the front of the M70 RUM box:



Stainless steel pillars and hidden allthread steel crossbolts fore and aft of the magazine box, all buried in Marine Tex:



Leupold 2.5X-8X scope has taken a lickin' and is still tickin', with the beginnings of a camo paint job on it:



It holds 3 in the box and 1 in the chamber,
any cartridge length between 3.2" and 3.6" and all nose shapes feed well:



Dry weight of the rifle (without scope or ammo onboard) is 9 lbs. 3 oz., just under 9.25 pounds.
Barrel is 24" long and 0.782" at muzzle diameter,
Pac-Nor No.6 sporter, 1:12" twist:


Ron The Unforgiven

Fickle me! The M98 with Wiebe box is going to a .375/404 Jeffery Saeed, aka 375-2012.
Rifle No.2 in 49-10 is a BRNO.
The .510 JAB barrel came off and the 49-10 barrel went on.
The 10.75-pound/23"-barreled .510 JAB metamorphosed into a 9.25-pound/24-inch barreled 49-10 :

49-Bore/.500-Caliber/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved of 2010

aka 49-10

aka 12.7x68 mm Tornado

The forend tip picture inspired a PM, so better point out that it is from Jim Brockman.
Installed by Rusty McGee, last one he had on hand.
Jim Brockman is a good source for that part. He makes them.


http://www.brockmansrifles.com/direct_sales.asp

Click above and scroll down to find this for $45:
************************************************************************************************


Brockman's Magnum Sling Swivel Stud - The Brockman Magnum Sling Swivel Stud is designed for use
on heavy recoiling rifles where a standard stud may inflict injury to the shooter's hand.
The Magnum Sling Swivel Stud is meant as an alternative to the traditional barrel band sling stud,
allowing the stud to be placed out of the way and leaving the barrel stress free.
The Magnum Sling Swivel Stud also works well on light weight or long barreled rifles
to lower the profile of the rifle when slung.

Order Brockman's Magnum Sling Swivel Stud - $45.00
************************************************************************************************

It has a flat bar several inches long that is buried in the forearm with screws,
may then be covered over with epoxy in the barrel channel bedding.
Parts is parts.

Love the 49ers! Even though they had ball control issues on the punt return that cost them the play off game :-(
Other 49ers?
49 Rigby
49 Mbogo
49 Jeffery
49 Gibs/Chey-Tac

boom stick,
Thanks for noticing.
Two rifles in the same chambering, cartridge adequate for any job, is an idea I have become quite fond of.
I think I'll pass on those other wildcats you have suggested.
Doc M has already got 49-bore B&M and MDM cartridges, short, medium, long, something for everyone.
I am retiring from wildcatting for sure now.
There is nothing more possible after finding perfection in the .375-2012 after all these years,
aka .375/404 Jeffery Saeed,
with 23" to 26" barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
boom stick,
Thanks for noticing.
Two rifles in the same chambering, cartridge adequate for any job, is an idea I have become quite fond of.
I think I'll pass on those other wildcats you have suggested.
Doc M has already got 49-bore B&M and MDM cartridges, short, medium, long, something for everyone.
I am retiring from wildcatting for sure now.
There is nothing more possible after finding perfection in the .375-2012 after all these years,
aka .375/404 Jeffery Saeed,
with 23" to 26" barrels.

Well RIP, we all like perfection, but what happened to the 395 TATANKA?
And what practical difference will be found with the 375 RUM?

I still think your 500 Mbogo is close to perfection, even though I'm building the short version (2.65" AccR).

I fire formed some brass a few days ago - my 500 Acc Rel rifle almost completed...

Case cap in fireformed brass:
338 Lapua brass (from Lapua): 136 grs water
416 Rigby - Norma brass: 135 grs water
500 Acc Rel brass- once fired (Quality Cartr): 137 grs water
416 Rigby - Hornady brass : 141 grs water

PS:

quote:

Two rifles in the same chambering, cartridge adequate for any job, is an idea I have become quite fond of.

This is what my son and I already have, carrying our 416 Rigbys on a hunt together.
Maybe the handloaded 416 Rigby is close to perfection?
I was just Skyping with my son and we couldn't think of a better cartridge for eland at 'any distance' (<400 yards).

Anyway, Ron, you can see that we appreciate your thinking, even if we made a different choice.

We think that cartridges smaller than Rigby feel "specialized", and cartridges larger than Rigby (Gibbs, Cheyenne-Tac) have a capacity that we are not ready to use and don't see a practical need for hunting use.

The .395 Tatanka is alive and well.
The 500 Mbogo is alive and well.
Etc., etc., regarding my litter of wildcat kittens.

400/.395 Nitro Express 3-Inch Aboriginal (10.03x75R)
.395 H&H Magnum
.395 Ruger Max
398 Lapua Magnum
.395 Tatanka
404 RIP (.423/.416 Rigby)
49-10 (12.7x68mm)
500 Mbogo
.375/.338 Lapua Magnum (same as 9.5x70mm Tornado in Germany)
.458/.338 Lapua Magnum


However, the .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012, aka .375-2012, is the closest thing to a perfect cartridge in this world,
IMNSHO.

The 404 Jeffery case is the largest perfectable fit in available actions.
The LapuaMag/Rigby case is "doo-able," but not perfect.
.505 Gibbs case head size is well beyond the envelope unless you do an in-line single stack.

All the rest are just for fun, in bolt actions:

"This is my rifle,
This is my gun,
This is for shooting,
This is for fun."

Enough of the mental masturbation!
416Tanzan, that means you!

I thought it appropriate to resurrect the original thread to throw some new information into the mix.

Here’s some historical information:
Select Chamber Data:
Chamber Minimum Length: 2.669"
Brass Maximum Length: 2.657"
Shoulder Diameter: 0.575”
Neck Diameter @ Shoulder/Neck Junction: 0.531”
Neck Diameter @ Case Mouth: 0.531”
Freebore Diameter: 0.502”
Freebore Length: 0.252”
Throat Angle: 1º30min

Multiple-edited post-excerpts by RIP:
A la Doc M's MIB extractor head spacing research. Using the extractor of a Winchester M70 and the rimless-rim of the case for headspace on fireforming; Just touch off a standard .338LM in a 49-10 chamber… Mine were fire formed with a hot loaded 200-grain Nosler ballistic tip .338/200-grain bullet.

Lapua-brand .338 Lapua Magnum Commercial Brass:
New Unfired Case Length: 2.717"
Fire Formed Case Length: 2.707"
Fire Formed Case Trim Length: 2.647".
Fire Formed Case Capacity: 131.45grs water

And here’s some updated information:
Yesterday I picked up 50 pieces of ‘new unfired’ 338 Lapua Magnum (Lapua manufacture) commercial brass. A few months ago I picked up 200 pieces of ‘once fired’ 338 Lapua Magnum (Lapua manufacture) military brass with spent primer, half cleaned and half un-cleaned. This afternoon I had a chance to get the brass prepped as 12.7x68mm Magnum brass.

Here’s what I’ve come up with…
Unfired Commercial brass – OAL: 2.717”, Shoulder Diameter: 0.543”, Neck Thickness: 0.029”
Once-fired Military brass – OAL 2.724”, Shoulder Diameter: 0.544”, Neck Thickness: 0.033”
(Note: Once-fired military OAL runs 2.722” to 2.724” length – the piece used for this comparison was 2.724” OAL.)

First Step: a single pass into my Hornady’ 338-500 Custom Expander Die – Second Step: 6 smacks* with a 3# hammer with the case within my Hornady’ 12.7x68mm Magnum Hydraulic Case Form Die – and Third Step: a single pass into my Hornady’ 12.7x68mm Magnum Full Length Resize Die:
U/F Com – OAL: 2.634”, Shoulder OD: 0.572”, Neck OD: 0.517”, Neck ID: 0.494”, Case Weight: 339.511gr with spent primer, Case Capacity: 123.458grs water– Case Neck OD with 500gr CEB BBW#13 FN Solid: 0.527”
O/F Mil – OAL 2.649”, Shoulder OD: 0.572”, Neck OD: 0.518”, Neck ID: 0.494”, Case Weight: 354.944gr with spent primer, Case Capacity: 108.026grs water – Case Neck OD with 500gr CEB BBW#13 FN Solid: 0.528”
* Hornady recommends 3-smacks but that only results in Shoulder OD of 0.5685”

And finally, the Fourth Step: create dummy cases by seating .500 caliber 500gr CEB BBW#13 FN Solid (DGBR W04 – these are the discontinued 4-equidistant band style) bullets, seated with 2 bands outside and bands inside the case neck – case mouth seated against lower edge of the 3rd band:
Unfired Commercial brass – COAL: 3.570”, Neck/Shoulder Junction Diameter: 0.527”, Neck Diameter @ 2nd Band W/I Neck: 0.527”
Once-fired Military brass – COAL 3.570”, Neck/Shoulder Junction Diameter: 0.533”, Neck Diameter @ 2nd Band W/I Neck: 0.528”
Dimensional Issue:
The neck/shoulder junction diameter of the once-fired military brass exceeds the minimum chamber specification and is an issue requiring resolution.

Case Creation Comments/Issues:
Fire forming cases vis-à-vis Hydraulic case forming:
Untrimmed Case Length: Fire Forming: 2.707”
Untrimmed Case Length: Hydraulic Forming Die U/F Com: 2.634”
Untrimmed Case Length: Hydraulic Forming Die O/F Mil: 2.649”

The fire-formed brass requires length trimming to function properly within the 12.7x68mm Magnum chamber; this is not required with hydraulic case forming – except that the military brass should be trimmed to normalize case length after hydraulic forming.

Case capacity:
Trimmed Case Length: Fire Forming Com: 131.45grs water
Trimmed Case Length: Fire Forming Com & FLR: 129.9grs water after second full power load and second resizing
Untrimmed Case Length: Hydraulic Forming Die & FLR U/F Com: 123.458grs water
Untrimmed Case Length: Hydraulic Forming Die & FLR O/F Mil: 108.026grs water

Difference of 7.992grs water between Fire-Formed vis-à-vis Hydraulic Formed 12.7x68mm Magnum brass; both using new unfired Lapua manufacture commercial 338 Lapua Magnum brass. The Lapua manufacture 338 Lapua Magnum military brass is 15.433gr heavier and 15.432grs water less capacity than the Lapua manufacture 338 Lapua Magnum commercial brass when both cases are formed with the Hydraulic Case Forming Die.

Final Comments:
Hydraulic case forming is a viable option for creating 12.7x68mm Magnum cases from 338 Lapua Magnum commercial or military brass. That said, the greater case capacity of the fire-formed brass as well as the potential of normalizing the wall thickness from the case shoulder through the case mouth areas of the military brass may outweigh the ease of creating these cases via the hydraulic case method.

So there it is.

Oh yes, please note that ‘Tornado’ has been dropped from use within the 12.7x68mm Magnum terminology.

Note: Post edited on 05/26/2012.

Wow, Jim!
Thanks for the work.
I did not know there was such a difference between military brass and the civilian commercial brass by Lapua.
does Lapua make the military brass.
What is the military headstamp?

I suppose there is enough brass in the military version to outside-neck turn the brass.
Tedious.
Simple fire forming of the civilian brass is so easy and trouble free,
and accurate enough.

I had only one minor case mouth crack out of 150 pieces fire formed so far.
I used a case full of IMR-4831 and an upside-down Hornady .338/250-grain bullet.
One trigger pull with muzzle pointed down toward dirt berm,
and most of the unburnt powder falls out of the muzzle.
Case well formed.

U R Welcome RIP.

Yes the military brass is Lapua manufacture; the head stamp on either side of the primer pocket is LAPUA on top and 98 on the bottom. It was quite a bit more expensive than other brands of military 338 Lapua Magnum brass but about half the cost of new unfired commercial Lapua manufacture 338 Lapua Magnum brass.

I’ll start looking for a good deal on .338 caliber bullets and fire-form some of the military Lapua brass after I receive my rifles and see if that eliminates the neck thickness issue. If not then I’ll just have to neck-turn them to normalize the thickness. Plus it’ll give me a chance to see what happens with the case capacity.

Speaking of fire-formed brass… Have you checked the water volume of your commercial brass after you’ve full length resized them? I’m just wondering what the difference is between fire-formed brass and FF-FLR’ed brass so that I’ll be able to better track my military vs. commercial 12.7 x 68 Magnum brass.

Ah yes…another question. Did Rusty modify your extractor to only work with the 338 Lapua Magnum rim thickness or does your extractor also accommodate the thicker 416/450 Rigby rim?

Thanks,

Jim,
I am on the road.
Will resize and water check brass later.
Rim difference?
Max rim Specs may be different, Rigby larger than Lapua by a few thou, but there is no actual brass difference, as manufactured, between the civilian Lapua .338LM and Norma .416 Rigby brass rims that I have tried, IIRC.
Will check.
Add Hornady (.338LM and .416Rigby) and Federal (.416 Rigby) to that mix too.
Rusty made the WinM70 fit Lapua rims.
The BRNO already worked with 460WBY rim, and that worked with Lapua just fine.