With assistance of German Engineering:

Maybe member 2RECON (Michael) will reveal how he did these .500 Tornado cases so beautifully?



And here are some custom bullets in .500 caliber: 700gr lead core, 540gr brass solid, .375/300gr Hornady for comparison



.475 (470) Tornado is easy in comparison: Just neck up the .458/.338 Lapua Magnum using 470 Mbogo dies.




You see that simply necking up the .338 Lapua to .500 simply erases the shoulder.
.475 Tornado can retain all the taper of case body.
.500 Tornado must be blown out at the shoulder and then necked down to .500":



I suggest .575" shoulder diameter,
and 0.525" neck diameter.

Wowee! That makes for lots of shoulder!!!

Keep that shoulder angle 20 degrees or make it 25 degrees or 30 degrees per side?

That is a junction cone angle of 40, 50, or 60 degrees?
The .338 Lapua Magnum and also the already existing .375 Tornado have the 40-degree cone angle.

I like that slick Lapua Mag shoulder for all:

.338
.375,
.395 (398)
.423 (404)
.458 (450)
.475 (470)
.500

The 300 Lapua did use a 25-degree-per-side shoulder (50-degree junction cone angle) in order to allow the neck to be a full caliber length with the same sholder location as the .338 lapua Magnum.

No such neck shortening occurs with going larger than .338-caliber.
The 20-degree-shoulder-hemi-angle makes the neck proportionally longer with each step up in diameter.
That is a good thing for a big bore.

And the Lapua brass can be used at near 70,000 psi ... so 50K to 60K psi loads will make the brass last forever.
Or load it hot for kicks.

@RIP,

neck it up.....neck it up carefully!! took 6 steps + "warming" the case once. Used "Imperial Sizing Wax" (to me the best Stuff available)
Will send you Pic´s of tooling.
YES, i´m mayby smart enough to make them, but posting Pic´s...:-((

Best
2RECON

Michael,
Beautiful, very nice job.
The Lapua-made .338LM brass is nicely annealed after Lapua necks its basic down to .338!
The new-made .338LM brass is ready for necking up!
Was it Ross Seyfried who advised:
Anneal before necking up and after necking down?

So the trick is, how far to neck up before annealing ... and then continue necking up to completion.

How often will split necks occur?

Jeffeosso has some brass experience with his 500 AR being a .510-caliber on shortened .416 Rigby basic cylindrical brass.
Necking down a straight cylinder to either .500 or .510 is certainly a lot easier!

I never wanted to go beyond my .458/.338LM, fearing neck splits beyond that, the .338 to .458 neck-up being easily done in two steps only.

Any problem with neck splits noted when going to .500 caliber?

Wouldn't it be nice to get that Lapua basic cylindrical brass before it was necked down to .338LM?

RIP,

split necks is not a problem, if you neck it up in SMALL steps....
I hate it to ruin a case, because we have to pay about 3$ a piece of original Lapua Brass.

If there are people out there REALY interested in having a 500-338 i´m going to ask Horneber-Brass if he could make some with the correkt Headstamping....

Best
2RECON

2RECON,
I like the .500/.338 Lapua Magnum idea.
It is the only ".500" that could possibly interest my jaded tastes now.
Will it be headstamped ".500 Tornado" or "12.7mm Tornado" ???

It will certainly give Lazzeroni's "12.04 Bibamufu" a run for the money.

Did anyone ever get any "9.5 Tornado" or ".375 Tornado" headstamped brass made?

The 500 Tornado could be cool and fit in a 30-06 length action using those solids Michael458 uses. I have thought for a while if you cut the 416 rigby off at the shoulder, fireform a shoulder and stuff with 510 bullets you could have a cool stubby 500 Jeffery/500 AccRel/500 Mbogo 2.25" suitable for a short action to shoot 535's @ 2150+
Kind of a fat 458 B&M (Boom and Michael ) Hey Michael... can the 410 B&M and 458 Super short be a Boom and Michael ??? OK I'll go hide now

I'm just the guy who keeps throwing enough shit against the wall waiting for some to stick

Boomy


A "Boom and Michael", I don't know Boomy, let's all just roll that off a few times and see how it sounds, then decide.

Too much coffee for you today!

Boomy



Michael

The German Michael's (2RECON's) homemade tooling for necking up and down with the Lapua Mag brass:

Very nice!

what's the H20 on them? about 135?

LOL was just drinking my coffee
I really should cut back... I cant sleep at night.
OK back on topic what bullets would you use/make for the 500 Tornado?
The .500 has lots of appeal IMHO and pistol bullet plinking is cheap!
Also more fuel for Jeffeosso's 490 bore.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Very nice!

what's the H20 on them? about 135?

Jeff,
135 grains for the 500 Tornado sounds like a good guess on your part ... been there and done that in .510 instead of .500 caliber, eh?
Let's see if 2RECON can plug the primer hole in one of his magnificently tool-formed cases
and weigh the gross water capacity of one case.

BTW, the 500 Mbogo is about 155 grains gross water.

How does 490 Tornado sound?
Less issue with the 500 thing.
Impressive home made tooling.

I like that.
If A-Square can call a rifle with .510"-groove/.500-bore a ".495 A-Square,"
why not a 490 Tornado or a 495 Tornado, eh?
.495 is the average of .500-groove/.490-bore.
But, .490 is true to bore, eh?

495 is more alliterative with .375 Tornado, already extant,
and so would be a .475.

Maybe they could all be standardized to a 1:12" twist.
Right or left hand twist?

Will it depend on the hemisphere in which the Tornado is spawned,
what side of the equator the gunsmith lives on??

Some day when the 490 bore barrels gets made the .500" softs will squish down and solids made I think .498.5" I think would be cool. there is a nice gap between .475" and .510"

Boomy

Michael has all the access to the .500 caliber bullets I have been working with, he has contact with David and has been getting some other bullets from him in the past. So he won't have an issue with the .500s at all. In fact he is in the process of getting ready to build a couple of 50 B&Ms too. He does superb work too by the way with the brass and loads!

The only issue I see the case is too big to work in a WInchester!

LOL

Michael

i have tooling started for .49 caliber, ya'll .. apparently it takes more than a year, too .. at least *MY* credit card hasn't been hit

Is it possible to patent the 490 bore?

could be, though i don't want to .. its a who would do such a thing, thing .. i want EVERYONE to have access .... .498 groove, .490 bore... twist is what you are willing to pay for.. and that's not 1/2 an inch ANYWHERE

And all I wanted to do was use the Lapua case as an excuse to have a true .500"-caliber rifle ...

2RECON to the recon!

No thanks on the true .498"-groove/.490"-bore barrels.
.500"-groove/.490" bore will work better with available bullets.

"490" name calling is O.K. with a .500"-groove and .490"-land diameter.

I already own six of the only seven .395-caliber barrels ever made. 1:12" twist and .387"-bore/land diameter.
Harry McGowen made some, and "Montana McGowen" made some.
I hope they still have the tooling I paid for.
It is not getting used much.

Jeffe is it too late to cancel that order?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
could be, though i don't want to .. its a who would do such a thing, thing .. i want EVERYONE to have access .... .498 groove, .490 bore... twist is what you are willing to pay for.. and that's not 1/2 an inch ANYWHERE

Yes, I agree. Was just a hypothetical question.

RIP
the thing is, they might could contrive the .500 as being a "50" .. but never a 49 ...

can't cancel .. don't want to .. want a true 49 caliber out there, bluntly, for poltical reasons .. and worst case, running .500 bullets through a .498 swage die is " nothing"

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
And all I wanted to do was use the Lapua case as an excuse to have a true .500"-caliber rifle ...

OK RIP have to ask, what the hell is a 500 MDM, 50 B&M, 50 B&M SA, 50 B&M Alaskan, 50 B&M Super Short?

If not true .500 caliber rifles?

Huhhhhhh?????


Now you know as good as I do it's dark over here on my side. What happens when it gets dark here? It's way past my bedtime, will catch you in the morning!

Michael

Doc M,
But, but, yours are not Tornadoes, none of them use the Lapua case, so, good night ...

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
RIP
the thing is, they might could contrive the .500 as being a "50" .. but never a 49 ...

can't cancel .. don't want to .. want a true 49 caliber out there, bluntly, for poltical reasons .. and worst case, running .500 bullets through a .498 swage die is " nothing"

You know,
Since you came up with that idea, I have actually had to size some .512" GSC copper HV bullets down to .510".
You are right, it was nothing.
And the bullets shot very accurately,
450-grainers at 2825 fps in the 500 Mbogo.

I might need a .498 Lapua to go with my .398 Lapua.
No hurry. I'll wait and see if I can buy a barrel from your barrel maker eventually.

Please remind me, what barrel maker?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Very nice!

what's the H20 on them? about 135?

Jeff,
135 grains for the 500 Tornado sounds like a good guess on your part ... been there and done that in .510 instead of .500 caliber, eh?
Let's see if 2RECON can plug the primer hole in one of his magnificently tool-formed cases
and weigh the gross water capacity of one case.

BTW, the 500 Mbogo is about 155 grains gross water.

@RIP,Jeff,Michael,

have one case with a fired Primer in. Will check H2O capacity,and write a Quick-Load file. Lets see whats going on using (guess) 20" BBL

Best
2RECON

Ok Gentlemen,:
Diameter Shoulder to Body .562"
Diameter Shoulder to Neck .533"
(will leave a bit of Body taper....)

Case Capacity 136,4grs.
Case weight : 311grs. (Hornady Brand)

Quick-Load calculated:
COL: 3.307"
Bullet: Hornady FP-XTP 50105 500grs.( Have to ask Michael 458 about the dimensions of his Solids)
110grs of VV 540 Powder
20" BBL

gave:
2400fps
6374 ft.-lbs
at a "warm" 60200psi

Best
2RECON

2Recon

Michael

I would say Quickload is spot on the money. With the 500 Hornady. The 500 MDM will send that downrange at 2350 fps. The other 510 gr Solid at a tad over 2300 fps. So I would guess that you are pretty close, maybe a tad conservative. I will get you the dimensions of the 510 and 550 gr solid I have for the .500s of mine.

Good Show!

Michael

the 500 AR is about 128 -- so you might could use middle loads from that as baseline starts... if you like...

600gr at 2300 is about my max load, that i would bother.. exceeded that, but it became a bit fierce!

@michael458
@jeffeosso,

the only problem working with Quick-Load is that the results are "calculated", for me more or less something like a "guess with some estimated math". Yes you can fine-tune the Programm if you know what button to use.....
But for me, FAKTS count. Thats why i get a pressure -test barrel for all the "Wildcats" and later official Rounds i´ve made. It´s not cheap, but its a more "straight" way to work.

Right now i´m going to draw a chamber, and contact Dave to get some .500"Diam. Bullet samples.

Best
2RECON

500 Tornado Tease:



Michael has been doing some drawing.
I reckon he will do some ciphering next, and come up with one of those German Engineered CIP drawings of brass and chamber?

In .500"-caliber rifle barrel: PAC-NOR makes a 1:12" TWIST , 8-groove, chromoly/stainless, 0.500" groove ... but is it 0.492" bore/land-diameter?

0.492" is the bore/land-diameter of McGowen Precision for .500-grooved barrel,
but they only make it in 1:20" twist.

RIP,

That's an easy one...according to Penny at PAC-NOR in October 2009 the 50 caliber 12" twist rate barrel is .490" bore and .500" groove diameters.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
RIP,

That's an easy one...according to Penny at PAC-NOR in October 2009 the 50 caliber 12" twist rate barrel is .490" bore and .500" groove diameters.

Well I can attest to this, the PacNor 1:12 is a mighty fine barrel, I just done a quick count in the "lab" and counted 22 rifles that are sporting around with that barrel on them. Can't tell you how they are at 300 yds and never likely to find out or care, but I can tell you that every one of them will put everything in the same hole at 50 yds if you do your job! What little I have shot at 100 yds is a hole too. They work damn good on all the critters I have shot with them too! So make all mine PacNor 1:12 if you please. Oh, we are already eh?

HEH

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
RIP,

That's an easy one...according to Penny at PAC-NOR in October 2009 the 50 caliber 12" twist rate barrel is .490" bore and .500" groove diameters.

So make all mine PacNor 1:12 if you please. Oh, we are already eh?

HEH

M

Unless they start making it in 1:10" twist rate!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
RIP,

That's an easy one...according to Penny at PAC-NOR in October 2009 the 50 caliber 12" twist rate barrel is .490" bore and .500" groove diameters.

So make all mine PacNor 1:12 if you please. Oh, we are already eh?

HEH

M

Unless they start making it in 1:10" twist rate!

Yep, will move to a 1:10 if they do!

M

Gotta get back to bullet castin', but

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
RIP,

That's an easy one...according to Penny at PAC-NOR in October 2009 the 50 caliber 12" twist rate barrel is .490" bore and .500" groove diameters.

Thanks. I like that bore and groove spec as well as the twist.

Howdy,

i´m in contact with Penny at PAC-NOR too.( And Dave for Bullets ) Unfortunately they don´t have an official Dealer in Germany. Looks like i´ve to contact Border-Barrels.....making a 12"-Twist one for testing....

Best 2RECON

Of interest to maybe some...
If you neck up the 338 Lapua to 475 giving 20 thou shoulders per side and shortening the neck you could make a kind of 470 version of the 500 AccRel for 30-06 length actions but more taper or a 470 version of the 458 BS from a few years ago

quote:

Originally posted by 2RECON:
Howdy,

i´m in contact with Penny at PAC-NOR too.( And Dave for Bullets ) Unfortunately they don´t have an official Dealer in Germany. Looks like i´ve to contact Border-Barrels.....making a 12"-Twist one for testing....

Best 2RECON

If you're having a cut-rifed barrel made by Border-Barrels have them cut a 1:10" twist rate barrel rather than the 1:12" twist.

One should have access to a true 49 caliber before christmas -- 1:12 twist