I might have to re-zero my scope for the GSC HV.
Ought to work well with the 450-grainers for up close and the 400-grainers afar ...


Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

Alf,

Are you saying I have a big dick but the .458 Winchester Magnum has a small dick?

Thank you.

Though it may be true, it really is not very important to the discussion.
Past a certain point, size is less important than how you use it.

In some special cases (such as proven with the 500-grain TSX in a </= 3.840" box magazine)
the .458 Win.Mag. is superior to the .458 Lott.

And you fail to give credit for the .458 Win.Mag. throat, which is a two-edged sword, a mixed blessing.
That is too complicated an issue for QuickLOAD to make allowances for.
You just gotta load it up and see what the little dick can do in the proper orifice chamber with a deep throat.

It is, on balance, such an advantage that CZ-USA has taken to throating their .458 Lott rifles that way.
I still haven't discovered whether they ream or hammer-forge those chambers right along with the rifling.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
RIP:

You are the uber David Copperfield of this site Snake oil salesman of distinction and general riler up of troops !

You show us numbers pat yourself on the back and as many before lay claim to the " I can get my lesser sized big dick to outdick your large sized dick "

So we see numbers on a 458 approaching and even exceeding numbers on a Lott and you then lay claim to superiority !

Victory when the lesser is allowed to fight without rules or constraint and the other had to fight with its one hand tied behind its back ! That my friend is illusion !

The fact is when both are loaded to the same condition ie same bullet loaded to same depth, say a caliber depth then the larger charge will have a velocity edge over the lesser charge !
This is a simple reality of life ! More energy added to the tank translates to greater velocity and pressure !

Even more importantly

If your 458 numbers exceed that of a Lott loaded to the same conditions" it is doing so at the expense of higher pressure

The inverse of the latter statement then clearly claimed in many loading manuals !

The Lott will attain the claimed original benchmark velocity of 2150 at a lesser pressure than a 458 win doing 2150 with the same bullet loaded to the same loading conditions. ( as per the Barnes manual)

This is the reality of the illusion !

The increase in velocity will follow "Barsness's 4 to 1 rule " ( we can take issue with the claim that it is "his" rule.... when in fact that distinction does not belong to him at all but is contained within the history of the seeking of a numerical model to describe the internal ballistics event)

The maximum possible increase is charge mass between the 458 win and Lott is actually not that big hence the predictable increase in velocity will be very small ie commensurate with the thermodynamic rules of the process.

These are the facts , the rest is purely illusion and ballistics masturbation !

As a footnote:

If the above are not so then your 458 should do better in numbers with a starting load than a maximum load which clearly does not happen !

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

quote:

He suffers from the same disorder as 416Tanzan: .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome

. . .

The GSC .458-caliber/400-grain HV is on the way.
Stand by for a spectacular "Gamefield Domination Load" for the .458 Win.Mag.:

400-grain HV at 2500 fps

My syndrome, self-confessed, is a 2800fps-fieldview-myopia.
You guys are happy with 2150fps when wearing 2400fps-spectacles. Go for it. I happen to wear 2800fps spectacles and am willing to accept 2525-2550.

Now your 400gn GSC-HV at 2500fps and 5550ft# would be a winner and should let your little 458 play with the big boys. In fact, that load could attract my eyes from a little 416Ruger for when I get old, where a 20" Alaskan should send a 350gnTTSX or 330gn GSC at 2550-2600fps.

Yes, a 400gn GSC at 2500fps in .458 would be a bullet to walk the forest with.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

The GSC .458-caliber/400-grain HV is on the way.
Stand by for a spectacular "Gamefield Domination Load" for the .458 Win.Mag.:
400-grain HV at 2500 fps

Yes, a 400gn GSC at 2500fps in .458 would be a bullet to walk the forest with.

Zero it 3" high at 100 yards, dead-on at 212 yards.
Fall where they may at closer range:
450-grainers at 2400 fps
500-grainers at 2200 fps
600-grainers 2100 fps
The 500 and 600-grainers will be lower pressure.
The 400 and 450-grainers will not be excessive.
Pick the best shooter for a heavy/solid to go with the 400-grain HV as the all-purpose soft.

I'll resume loading 400-grainers when I get the GSC HV,
starting with, working up from:
76.0 grains of H322 Extreme
and
81.0 grains of AA-2230.
Also to be considered:
AA-2015BR
and good ol' H4198 Extreme, if higher pressure needed.


Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

quote:

quote:

Yes, a 400gn GSC at 2500fps in .458 would be a bullet to walk the forest with.

Zero it 3" high at 100 yards, dead-on at 212 yards.

I've learned to shy away from 3" high at 100 yards. Maybe because I will settle for something that may be 3.5" in actuality, of noontime. That can rise to 5in high at top of arc and cause a high miss when the rest is wobbling or off-hand.

So I try to keep things at 2.1" max arc height. It still gets the bullet close to zero out to 200 yards and beyond 200 yards a person usually has time to think.

Just for the sake of conversation, too many folks get the severly needed velocity from the ill gotten .458 Win.by using 400 and 450 gr. bullets and leap with joy...

Any 458 caliber rifle should shoot the long 500 gr. bullet, even if its slower and properly handloaded it will work on all DG...but for Petes sake, no more praise for short fat bullets for DG of any kind..

quote:

no more praise for short fat bullets for DG of any kind.

I must respectfully disagree.

The nice thing about mono-metal bullets is that they can be run at lower sectional densities for similar penetration. A good rule of thumb is 10% lower weight, up to 20% lower weight for similar penetration with expanding bullets. And such bullets are not short and fat but tend to have the same length as the heavier lead-core bullets, or longer.

A 400 GSC-HV would be my minimum for buffalo, though the 450 HV would be even better. That's why I'm happy for 350gn and 330gn in .416, too.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

quote:

Yes, a 400gn GSC at 2500fps in .458 would be a bullet to walk the forest with.

Zero it 3" high at 100 yards, dead-on at 212 yards.

I've learned to shy away from 3" high at 100 yards ...

I know, what you are saying, but this is a special case:
+ 3.0" with 400-grain GSC HV at 100 yards (2500 fps MV)
+3.14" maximum ordinate @ 119.14 yards
+3.13" @ 125 yards
+0.80" @ 200 yards
0.00" @ 212.3 yards
-0.96" @ 225 yards
-3.24" @ 250 yards
etc., assuming BC = 0.372, and my local atmospheric conditions for this example.

I can live with that, for this special case.
Usually I would say zero it 2" high at 100 yards.
But this is special.
It is inside a 6.5"-diameter vital zone all the way to 250 yards, point and shoot on big game.
For varmints like squirrels I would have to tighten that up, sure.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

no more praise for short fat bullets for DG of any kind.

I must respectfully disagree.

The nice thing about mono-metal bullets is that they can be run at lower sectional densities for similar penetration. A good rule of thumb is 10% lower weight, up to 20% lower weight for similar penetration with expanding bullets. And such bullets are not short and fat but tend to have the same length as the heavier lead-core bullets, or longer.

A 400 GSC-HV would be my minimum for buffalo, though the 450 HV would be even better. That's why I'm happy for 350gn and 330gn in .416, too.

Worth repeating in hopes it will sink in for Atkinson.

Both Finn Aagaard and Phil Shoemaker have said the old 400-grain Barnes X-bullet in the .458 Win.Mag. did as well or better than any other softpoint including 500-grain softs.
That is based on some extensive testing in artificial media and field results on DG.
Better than 600-grain softpoints too,
because the super-heavies just don't get enough speed.

Solids might be a little different, but as 416 Tanzan says, the 10% lighter monometal solid is ideal
(and 20% lighter softpoint is desirable)
compared to the old, heavier FMJ solids of about the same length.
Especially if the solid is a roundnose.
Finn verified the squirrely paths of RN solids.
No good.
I am thinking a 450-grain FN solid (monometal copper or brass) at 2400 fps from the .458 Win.Mag.
is about as good as it gets, for finding the brain of an elephant, or the shoulder bones and heart of a buffalo,
for one-shot kills.
They probably hurt more on the muzzle end than the butt end of the rifle too.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

no more praise for short fat bullets for DG of any kind.

I must respectfully disagree.

The nice thing about mono-metal bullets is that they can be run at lower sectional densities for similar penetration. A good rule of thumb is 10% lower weight, up to 20% lower weight for similar penetration with expanding bullets. And such bullets are not short and fat but tend to have the same length as the heavier lead-core bullets, or longer.

A 400 GSC-HV would be my minimum for buffalo, though the 450 HV would be even better. That's why I'm happy for 350gn and 330gn in .416, too.

Worth repeating in hopes it will sink in for Atkinson.

Both Finn Aagaard and Phil Shoemaker have said the old 400-grain Barnes X-bullet in the .458 Win.Mag. did as well or better than any other softpoint including 500-grain softs.
That is based on some extensive testing in artificial media and field results on DG.
Better than 600-grain softpoints too,
because the super-heavies just don't get enough speed.

Solids might be a little different, but as 416 Tanzan says, the 10% lighter monometal solid is ideal
(and 20% lighter softpoint is desirable)
compared to the old, heavier FMJ solids of about the same length.
Especially if the solid is a roundnose.
Finn verified the squirrely paths of RN solids.
No good.
I am thinking a 450-grain FN solid (monometal copper or brass) at 2400 fps from the .458 Win.Mag.
is about as good as it gets, for finding the brain of an elephant, or the shoulder bones and heart of a buffalo,
for one-shot kills.
They probably hurt more on the muzzle end than the butt end of the rifle too.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

Spot on!!!

I guess I don't get this whole thread...

The original spec loads 2150 or so 510 grain softs and 500 grain solids work fine, and established the reputation of the 458 wm.

Some are going on that the Lott gets a bit more velocity and that is good... others say nay, the old winmag load is fine.

Now the guys who were going on about how the old win mag was fine are saying going to a lighter bullet with more velocity makes the win mag "better."

Frankly, I'm not at Saeed's level, but have shot my share of DG.

All the traditional DG rifles got there because they work.

The 300 grain .375 kills Buffalo, elephant and cats at 2500 fps.

The 400 grain .416 kills them all at 2400.

The 400 grain .404 kills them all at 2200.

The 480-500 grain .458 kills them all at 2150.

As does the 500 grain .470 and the 570 grain .500.

I've seen/used all of these.

Sure, the bigger bullets seem to have a marginal advantage in how fast they drop them, but it's not really quantifiable.

Sure, it's easier to hit game at distance with a higher MV, but that also is a nonissue with DG if you are ethically hunting. I've hit Pygmy antelope at range with the standard loadings and killed game out to about 400 yards with the pokey standard velocities.

What you guys are arguing over is opinions and personal desires... go ahead and debate it, but frankly, for the rest of us, hunt with what you want... any of the standard chamberings will work just fine.

RIP - ALF seems to think the R stands for Richard which he shortens to dick, and here I thought it stood for Ron.

Finn Aagaard .458 Win.Mag. Load:

The velocity of the .458-cal/400-grain Barnes X-Bullet that flat-out beat all other softpoints was 2358 fps.
Greatest depth of penetration, wound channel, expansion diameter, and weight retention.
Remarkable.
His handloads were tested in three different rifles:
25"-barreled African Pre-'64 M70.
22"-barreled Post-'64 M70.
23"-barreled Westley Richards (re-barrel).

He used 74.0 grains of "AAC-2015" as a maximum charge.
R-P case and either CCI-250 or F-215 primer.
400-grain X-Bullet at 3.340" COL maximum.

25" MV: 2368 fps
22" MV: 2335 fps

He recommended starting 10% below that powder charge and "proceed cautiously from there."

But even Saint Finn was tempted by LongCOL loading.
From that previous article posted here, from AMERICAN RIFLEMAN, March 1984:

"I approximated the .450 Watts by seating bullets out to give 3.60" overall cartridge length in .458 cases, and single-loaded them in my Model 70 (the bullets still had 1/2" of free travel).

(That was a 500-grain Hornady RNSP in his 22"-barreled Post-'64 M70.)

"Using IMR 4320 powder, I was able to reach 2250 fps with apparently safe pressures."

Amazing what that LongCOL loading will do for the .458 Win.Mag.,
even with the old IMR-4320 that D'Arcy Echols gave up on in the .458 Lott.

Hotrodding of the .458 Win.Mag. is a fun thing.
Who says necessary has anything to do with it?
It's more like finding that old '66 Mustang, same one that you drove when you were 18 y.o., the 8-Track player still works,
and so does that little V-8.
But it is turbo-charged and burning nitro now.


Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
RIP - ALF seems to think the R stands for Richard which he shortens to dick, and here I thought it stood for Ron.

Maybe!
My Father-in-law used to call me "Don" bless his heart.
Don't forget, we gotta call Ray Atkinson "Atkinson." Don't dare address him as "Ray."
So many Ray's around here, Ray B.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

Here is another source for good load data for the .458 WinMagHotrod:

SWIFT BULLET COMPANY RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER TWO

Use the .458 Lott data for 400, 450, and 500-grain bullets.
Of course those shown are Swift A-Frames which are notorious for lower velocity,
or the occasional pressure spike when worked up to usual expected top velocity of other bullets of same weight.

The Swift manual data to be used is for .458 Lott specifies:
24" barrel
COL </= 3.600"
CCI-250 primer
Norma brass case 2.790"-2.800"

The 400-grain Swift A-Frame has a shorter nose section than the other bullets, only about 0.650".
At maximum brass length with the .458 Lott,
the COL with the 400-grain A-Frame could be as little as 3.450" when the bullet is crimped in the excellent factory cannelure.

I hope to be able to get the longer GSC HV .458/400-grainer loaded to about that COL in the .458 WinMagHotrod.

The low start-pressure (only about 1100 psi) of the drive-banded HV, combined with long throat of .458 WinMag. will make for a great safety factor.

I am going to have trouble getting up to maximum pressure unless I exceed those Swift maximum loads for the .458 Lott with 400-grain A-Frame.

Happily, the maximum .458 Lott/400-gr A-frame loads with H322 and Benchmark are only 92% and 93% load density respectively,
Probably room for the .458 WinMagHotrod/400-gr HV to exceed these loads:

H322: 81.5 grains (92%) >>> 2502 fps

Benchmark: 82.5 grains (93%) >>> 2511 fps

If the Swift Manual data can be trusted, this bodes fair dinkum for 2500 fps with the 400-gr HV in the .458 WinMagHotrod.
Especially with Chimera WiNCzechster's extra 7/8" of barrel.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

Preliminary estimate makes COL of 3.450" seem to be perfect:



Or it could be
(depending on how eye-balled from the drawing and the published bullet specs)
3.418" to 3.518" COL, on the range of COL.
Still perfect for the .458 WinMagHotrod.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

This is working out well.
Fair dinkum.
I will shoot those bullets when I get them.
Soon I hope, Lord willin' and the creeks don't rise.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

Gotta crimp, and crimp well with the .458 WinMagHotrod.

Finn Aagaard thought the most likely reason for some bad ammo reports with Winchester factory ammo, in the early days was this:

Cartridges so poorly crimped that you could spin the loose bullets in the brass case mouths with light finger touch.
He hypothesized that this allowed entry of moisture from humid air, rained-on, sweated-on, etc.
This supposedly deteriorated the powder in ammo with loose bullets.
Also might impair ignition from primer even if powder was not deteriorated.
Tight crimp is a must.
Keep yer powder dry!

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

Ain't it so, that 2300 MV and UP are more about shooting at your game from a longer distance?
I think the science is there, that ESPECIALLY if choosing modern bullets, say CEB's flat tip
elephant bullet, [at 450 grains, and 2150 MV] if you are firing at an elephant's brain from 25
yards or less, THAT .458 bullet IS reaching deep enough to get into THAT ELEPHANT'S Brain.

True:

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
Ain't it so, that 2300 MV and UP are more about shooting at your game from a longer distance?
I think the science is there, that ESPECIALLY if choosing modern bullets, say CEB's flat tip
elephant bullet, [at 450 grains, and 2150 MV] if you are firing at an elephant's brain from 25
yards or less, THAT .458 bullet IS reaching deep enough to get into THAT ELEPHANT'S Brain.

CEB .458 450 GR SAFARI SOLID (brass BBW #13 FN)
Bullet Length = 1.414"
Nose Projection Length = 0.750"
G1 BC = 0.190
(Very realistic BC number, eh?)


But the same bullet at 2400 fps will work fine too.
Anything from 2150 to 2400 fps with the 450-grain FN would be good to go in my rifle.

I will have to see what velocity makes for a good POI with a 450-grain FN solid, in relation to the POI of the 400-grain HV at 2500.

Anywhere from 0 to 2" high with the solid at 100 yards,
and the HV 3" high at 100 yards would be my dream combo.

In my IronWaterBoardBuffalo penetration testing days,
the best penetration I ever saw with an FN solid was with an S&H brass .395/330-grain FN at 2800 fps.
Very close behind it was a GSC copper .395/340-grain FN at 2700 fps.
The copper FN nose expanded slightly at 2700 fps impact.
The brass FN nose expanded only very minimally at 2800 fps.

So, I do believe that a brass solid penetration is optimum somewhere </= 2800 fps, as long as the brass FN bullet nose does not break up or expand upon impact.
Ditto copper FN @ </= 2700 fps.

The heavier the bullet (the greater the SD) then the greater are the forces working to expand or fragment the nose of the bullet at any given impact speed.

And the longer the bullet, the less stable it is for straight-line penetration.

Yep, .458-cal./450-grain FN of copper or brass at about 2400 fps should be a safe bet for optimum solid-bullet performance,
a happy balance all around.

Copper is a little shorter, more stable, but softer.
Brass is a little longer, less stabile, but harder.

Copper versus brass, as a solid, for my use, is a close race.
Copper being shorter might allow more powder space.
Copper being less likely to fracture, but more likely to expand a little at the nose ...
It is still a close horse race.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

Checked my stock and my notes.
I have about 50 of those 450-gr BBW#13 brass solids on hand.
Doc M loads for the .458 Lott showed that bullet in a 24"-barreled M70, F-215 primer, 3.540"-3.550" COL:
IMR-4895: 85.0 grains >>> 2417 fps <<< 59,338 psi

Depends on whether I can load that bullet out to close to 3.55" as to whether the .458 WinMagHotrod can duplicate that.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

Of course the above is a joke.
The bullet is crooked.
Cannot get a good crimp on the cannelured minor diameter of the bullet, with only about 0.300" seating depth.
I never did like the CEB banding pattern.
Barnes, North Fork, and GSC bands/grooves/cannelures are better in about any cartridge I have tried CEB bullets in.
This bullet must be seated deep and uses up a lot of case capacity in the .458 B&M with a 3" box length and a 2.240" brass length.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Of course the above is a joke.
The bullet is crooked.
Cannot get a good crimp on the cannelured minor diameter of the bullet, with only about 0.300" seating depth.

Ron,

You need a 458 Lott case

I want a .458 Win Mag and am not at all convinced I'd be better served with a Lott.

Having said that I have narrowed it down to a Win Safari Express or a CZ 550.

As I see it the CZ will probably have feeding issues and if it does I'll send it off to have it worked over by AHR. I'll do that anyhow...

The advantage to the 550 is the 5 round capacity. But as I understand it the magazine is too long and things get bumped around a bit...I'd also probably want to shorten the thing to 23 inches and install a barrel band.

OTOH I shouldn't have feeding issues out of the box with the Winchester but of course magazine capacity is merely 3 rounds. And of course the Winchester has a barrel band.

Cost either way is not the primary consideration. Getting a good reliable working gun is the goal. I reload all my ammo too...

Which way do I go?

Also, Am I screwing up if I buy a CZ550 Lott chambered gun and only intend to shoot Win Mag ammo? What I really want to know is are there accuracy or other reloading considerations that make this inadvisable

quote:

Originally posted by KY Nimrod:
I want a .458 Win Mag and am not at all convinced I'd be better served with a Lott.

Having said that I have narrowed it down to a Win Safari Express or a CZ 550.

As I see it the CZ will probably have feeding issues and if it does I'll send it off to have it worked over by AHR. I'll do that anyhow...

The advantage to the 550 is the 5 round capacity. But as I understand it the magazine is too long and things get bumped around a bit...I'd also probably want to shorten the thing to 23 inches and install a barrel band.

OTOH I shouldn't have feeding issues out of the box with the Winchester but of course magazine capacity is merely 3 rounds. And of course the Winchester has a barrel band.

Cost either way is not the primary consideration. Getting a good reliable working gun is the goal. I reload all my ammo too...

Which way do I go?

Also, Am I screwing up if I buy a CZ550 Lott chambered gun and only intend to shoot Win Mag ammo? What I really want to know is are there accuracy or other reloading considerations that make this inadvisable

This should get us to page 30

As to your question ... D'Arcy Echols has never had a request 458 Win, only 458 Lott and I would bet David Miller is the same.

Answer = 458 Lott ....100%, no question.

quote:

Originally posted by KY Nimrod:
I want a .458 Win Mag and am not at all convinced I'd be better served with a Lott.
Get the .458 WinMag and do not look back. I am having a CZ .458 WinMag-to-Lott conversion switched back to .458 WinMag.
Glad I saved all those .458 WinMag take-off barrels when I was wildcat crazy.
Having said that I have narrowed it down to a Win Safari Express or a CZ 550.
I have a blue/walnut Super Grade M70 .458 WinMag which I just use for lookin' at, like the hard candy of Chief Lone Watie.
It's a safe queen.
As I see it the CZ will probably have feeding issues and if it does I'll send it off to have it worked over by AHR. I'll do that anyhow...
I have been lucky maybe, but with five .458 WinMags from CZ that have passed through my wildcatting hands, no feeding issues have been noted.
The advantage to the 550 is the 5 round capacity.
Easy 5 + 1 sixshooter.
Add a pocket floorplate and it is a 6 + 1 sevenshooter.
But as I understand it the magazine is too long and things get bumped around a bit...
I have noted no problems in regards to using shortCOL ammo in the CZ box.
Just be sure to reinforce the front of the sheetmetal box to prevent denting.
You could even do the reinforcement on the inside of box to shorten the box length.
Just be sure to smooth the transition to the feed ramp.
I like the box full length and reinforced on the outside of front wall.
BTW, Winchester M70 sheetmetal boxes need reinforcement too, whether 3.4" or 3.6".
I'd also probably want to shorten the thing to 23 inches and install a barrel band.
Whatever turns your crank, but I like the 25" barrel and a front sling stud on the stock forend tip.
OTOH I shouldn't have feeding issues out of the box with the Winchester but of course magazine capacity is merely 3 rounds. And of course the Winchester has a barrel band.

Cost either way is not the primary consideration. Getting a good reliable working gun is the goal. I reload all my ammo too...
Which way do I go?
Get one of each. Flip a coin to decide which one first.
Heads: Winchester M70
Tails: CZ 550 Magnum
Also, Am I screwing up if I buy a CZ550 Lott chambered gun and only intend to shoot Win Mag ammo?
YES!!!!!
I bought one of those CZ .458 Lott rifles and found that the throat on it is at least as long as the throat on the .458 WinMag they make.
So if you fire .458 WinMag ammo in it ...
Well let's just say there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.
What I really want to know is are there accuracy or other reloading considerations that make this inadvisable
Exactly that: Poor accuracy with the CZ .458 Lott compared to the standard .458 WinMag using standard .458 WinMag ammo.
The latter can be much more accurate and equal the speed of the former, if you load that .458 WinMag to longer than standard COL in the CZ .458 WinMag.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

Mike,

Thanks for starting page 28.
You are totally deranged.
Either a Winchester M70 with 3.6" box or a CZ 550 Magnum with 3.8" box totally eliminates the need for .458 Lott brass.
In fact, you need to trim the brass for the .458 WinMag down to 2.485" for this perfection:

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

I think I might get one of those 458 X 2" Americans. Under the new "less is more" it will probably exceed 460 Wby ballistics.

Based on Australia's biggest guns/ammo forum we should soon see the 6.5 Creedmoor (spelling) and 260 Remington equal the 6.5/300 Wby ballistics

The .458 Lott does have a minor advantage in this special case with this bullet.
The longest it can be loaded with trimmed brass (2.790") and the 0.855" nose projection shown above = 3.645".
UH OH! That exceeds SAAMI COL!
Have to reduce it to 2.790" + 0.750" crimped on the first cannelure, seated deeper = 3.540" Maximum COL.
Unless you want to load it LongCOL in a CZ .458 Lott ...

.458 B&M loading of this bullet (2.240" + 0.750") is to COL 2.990".
A standard SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. has a greater effective case capacity, when loaded as shown above,
and a pressure-relieving longer throat and thus can burn a bunch more powder than the .458 B&M.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

Well RIP I put a 485 flat nosed cast through the lungs of a decent sized whitetail today. It was just too good of a hunt to not pull the trigger on. 51 grains of AA 2015 behind it. Guessing 1750 or so. 80 yards in heavy cover. Jumped ran died, 40 yards. Exited and left the lungs jellied. (In a hole that near spavined me to extract him from.) Loading him reminded me of how far age and life/body damage have taken me. Got'er done though. Hanging in the shed. Going to the freezer tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Well RIP I put a 485 flat nosed cast through the lungs of a decent sized whitetail today. It was just too good of a hunt to not pull the trigger on.

Congrats! I am cooking a venison pot roast tonight, delicious "organic" meat, unless it got into the GMO corn in Farmer Rogers' acres.

51 grains of AA 2015 behind it.

I went to the local emporium looking for that powder yesterday. No luck. I'll have to look elsewhere for Finn Aagaard's choice for .458/400-grain X-bullet in the .458 WinMag.

Guessing 1750 or so. 80 yards in heavy cover. Jumped ran died, 40 yards. Exited and left the lungs jellied. (In a hole that near spavined me to extract him from.) Loading him reminded me of how far age and life/body damage have taken me. Got'er done though. Hanging in the shed. Going to the freezer tomorrow.

Fury01,

What make of barrel does your rifle have?
Maybe just having a .458"-groove diameter (SAAMI minimum) instead of .459"-groove (my WinCzechster)
makes a great difference in being able to attain higher velocity with good accuracy, using cast bullets?
I assume your throat is SAAMI minimum and twist is 1:14" also?
Remind me about your rifle barrel and chambering specifics, please.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

I have some 480-grain CEB BBW#13 brass solids with a longer base length than the 450-grainer, same nose and band anatomy.
This will have a use for throat go and no-go gage in the CZ .458 Lott.
I hope to be able to find the end of that throat.


Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

1981-2 stock interarms Whitworth. Never slugged the barrel or cast the chamber. Assume all standard dimensions.

This should be simple for people to understand. In straight walled cases (rifle or revolver”) when Bullets are loaded in a shorter case to the same COAL as a longer case the powder capacity is the same.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
This should be simple for people to understand. In straight walled cases (rifle or revolver”) when Bullets are loaded in a shorter case to the same COAL as a longer case the powder capacity is the same.

Yep,
And the benefits of the SAAMI minimum .458 Win.Mag. throat will overpower the tighter .458 Lott SAAMI minimum throat,
whenerver both have same COL.
You can load the .458 Win.Mag. to higher velocity before pressure is maxed out,
assuming you also allow the .458 Win.Mag. to reach the same pressure as the .458 Lott.
The .458 Win.Mag. SAAMI minimum throat, plus allowing it to exceed SAAMI length,
and SAAMI pressure (to no more than SAAMI .458 Lott pressure):
The .458 Winchester Magnum wins.
Plus, the .458 Win.Mag. accuracy is improved by the LongCOL loading.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

A special case where the .458 Lott might be able to beat the .458 Win.Mag. involves the CEB .458/450-grain brass solid:



Not sure, would have to try various powders and have actual pressure testing to see which one could get top velocity for same MAP allowed.
More likely the .458 Lott would get higher velocity due to constraints created by the bullet,
which can only be loaded to a maximum COL of 3.340" in the .458 Win.Mag.
Happily, that is the SAAMI limit for the .458 Win.Mag. COL,
and that would be a real elephant-braining load for sure.
It should be good for whaling as well.
No more would be needed than that.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
1981-2 stock interarms Whitworth. Never slugged the barrel or cast the chamber. Assume all standard dimensions.

Thanks for saving me from looking back in the thread for that detail.
My Interarms Whitworth MarkX .458 Win.Mag. was acquired about a decade later than yours.
I need to slug the barrel on mine.
I did just today measure its throat length ...

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is suffering from .458 Winchester Magnum Derangement Syndrome.
Rip...