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Ron, That hollow base bullet would be good loaded backward for a touch up on roos in the spotlight. If made of linotype metal it just might completely shatter. | |||
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Boat tail hollow point wadcutter! Why didn’t I think of that?!?!? Of course it took an Aussie to think upside down.
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Umpteen years ago I has a Lee 130 grain 308. Used linotype and with Re 7 (in a Sako 308 1 in 12 twist) got vwery good accuracy at 2200-2300. My father used him a M94 30/30, I forget the the load we used but about 2000 f/s. Hornady gas check. From memory they weighed a bit over 120 grains, maybe 123-125. I bough three of the Lee moulds and one of the moulds gave the best accuracy. The gunsmith made up a jig so we could drill a hollow point in the bullet. They totally shatter when they hit. If you put them on the concrete and hit them witha hammer they would break into pieces. Where they we broken had that real crystalline look like the steel in magnet when you break the thing. One thing I found with cast bullets (but limited to the Sako/308 in testing) was pressure was a big thing for accuracy. With a full case of W760 I got 2500-2600 and they shot about 2" at 100 yards. However, if I took them to that velocity with Re 7 the accuracy was hopeless. So I "suspect" assuming suitabe powders that a 300 Winchester could give higher velocity with cast than a 308 and a 22 Swift would be faster than a 222 with cast. If I had my time over again I would try 400 grain flat nose and hollow point with linotype in the 458 over 70 grains of 4064 which used to do right on 2000 f/s with 400 Speer flat nose. I reckon a 400 grain flat nose hollow point in linotype wold kill even better, if that was possible  | |||
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Yes pressure is a factor in cast bullet performance. More than velocity I think. I'll let someone else explain why but there long has been tables charting what alloys will sustain what pressures. I use cast for light or moderate loads and find they kill well, which is what I use them for. Velocity, nor excess pressure is needed to achieve my goals. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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"Grace" As in graceful, form, poise, balance, style and forgiving. You know as in contrast to "Ol'Ugly" Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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I have a project in mind for "GRACE". As soon as they "unlock" the "lockdowned" range, I want to be there with two loads: The current 300gr TSX at around 2778 fps and the 350 TSX at close to that at 2760. The 300 is sighted for bear or wolf at around +1.5" at 100 yds, and I want to see how well the trajectories match out to 300. Barnes BC for the 300 is .234, and the 350 at .278. I'd expect the 350 to hit higher beyond 200 yards. The idea being to be able to use a 350 if the range is somewhat farther than expected, or as a backup to the 300 if needed on wounded game or in close quarters. However, research from my use of the 350 TSX in my former CZ550 at 2750 fps still strongly suggests that its BC is at least .338 and not .278. That comes from firing the same load on the same day at 100, 200 and 300 yds. Knowing the MV (from the Chrony corrected to MV), and the trajectory from measurement of the bullet holes, reveals a BC of at least .338 (and perhaps more). Because of the discrepancy with Barnes #4 manual, I contacted them by phone. The answer given over the phone was that on any given day BC could vary by up to .050. Also, I have photos posted by Michael McCourry of many tested bullets. I was intrigued by his pics of the 350gr/.458 fired from his .458 B&M. On the photo (with 2 perfectly expanded 350 TSX's) is typed 2448 fps MV and 2402 fps at 21 yards. Knowing the MV and velocity at 21 yards, it's easy to calculate BC, assuming ambient conditions are known. So I contacted Michael for those missing conditions. I wanted to know the following: Distance from the muzzle to the first chronograph, and distance from the first to the second chronograph. Also his elevation and temps. He was polite and helpful. Assuming at least a yard from muzzle to the first chronograph (which he called MV), in running the numbers his BC for those 350 gr TSXs would have had to have been in excess of .400 BC! So, I think I'm being somewhat conservative in ascribing .338 BC to the 350gr TSX. How much difference does a BC of .338 make at longer ranges, say 300, 400 and 500 yards. In the load I took for moose in N.Ontario in 2008, I judged the load would give some expansion on an adult moose to 400 yards at an MV of 2750 fps. But if the BC is .338 or better, it should give expansion at over 500 yards and +2000 ft-lbs. That is based on Barnes claim it will give some expansion at 1600 fps. Based on my external ballistics computer program, yesterday I plugged in the data for MV = 2760 fps (actual from "GRACE"), elevation at 1150 ft, temp 55F, RH = 65%, and a BC of .338. Results were 1624 fps at 500 yds and 2049 ft-lbs. That's about the same as it would be at 400 yds if the BC is .278. I don't know if moose in N. Ontario will ever be another hunt for me, but if it were to be, I know what I'd take as my rifle and load -- the same basic one as in 2008. For The MISSION. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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I had such a mould made by CBE a number of years ago. I had them start with their version of the 330gr Gould HP (an old Lyman design for the 45/70 that is still available) and I had them extend it to the rear and add a GC shank, aiming for 400gr. The original Gould design was a PB and had a reputation of being a good killer at low velocity. CBE’s version featured a massive HP pin to promote expansion at low velocity. I had problems with the original HP being too large and blowing off on game. Accuracy wasn’t great either. Perhaps the size of the HP was too much of a good thing at higher velocity. I consulted with a couple of gurus on the design and both agreed that the pin should not penetrate below the front drive band and was probably too wide for general use. I had CBE make a couple of smaller HP pins and I’ve ended up using the larger of the two pins. The pin terminates above the front drive band now and is much smaller than the original. There’s about a 25gr difference in bullet weight between the original pin and the larger of the two pins. Accuracy is now fantastic and it’s the most accurate bullet in my 45/70. It kills well too. With the extra weight cf the original PB Gould design it tends to fully penetrate most medium size game. I load them to 1850fps in my 45/70. I use that load as my standard hunting load. I did test them to 2000fps and it was still accurate but recoil in a 7lb levergun was not comfortable. CBE now offer a similar design as a stock item. | |||
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Hi Bob, Sorry to get off topic a bit, but you mentioned Michael McCourry. What a fantastic guy! A while back I was getting SMASHED on one of the forums because I was defending the .458 - and he publicly went into bat for me. I have since then corresponded with him several times privately and he was always very friendly and helpful. Some of his replies to my questions went for pages and must have taken ages to type. But he still did it joyfully. I rank him alongside yourself and RIP as the few modern day 'saviours' of the .458 ! Cheers, Russ You'll probably never NEED a gun. In fact I hope you never do. BUT IF you do, you will probably need it worse than anything you've ever needed before in your life... | |||
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Excellent idea, one worthy of boom stick, who is kicking himself for you beating him to it. I shall save the idea for any future periods of boredom should they arise. First the varmint grenade must be tried as a shuttlecock, dart stabilized. Maybe with a foam wad filler for low-velocity accuracy, or with the inverted/discarding gas check for high-velocity accuracy trial. Mindful of what you and Fury01 say about pressures and cast bullet hardness versus accuracy, pressure being more a factor than velocity, there is hope that the hard and brittle Linotype will do well on varmints or at least be a good gong ringer, doing little damage to the gongs. Slower powders with fillers and LongCOL loading can help with higher velocity for the pressure produced. Hopefully the .461"/ 375-gr Varmint Grenade will get a more positive evaluation than Macbeth's opinion on life: "Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."  Rip ... | |||
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Bob, "Grace" is perfect. Daisy could use some low rings and a smaller objective diameter. Then she would be more graceful. Good poop on the ballistics of the 350-gr TSX. Buy a donkey for supporting THE MISSION. Rip ... | |||
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Those 130 grain linotye that had been hollow pointed at both 2200 plus form 308 and 2000 from 30/30 completely blew up in wombats. Just stopped them dead cold and they can take some killing. You can run over the things and they keep going. | |||
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JFE, CBE web site is very interesting. http://www.castbulletengineering.com.au/bullet-moulds Is this your bullet ?:  Hollow Point 458 Diameter projectile. Bullet Length - 1.115" Nose Length - .435" Nose Diameter - .448" A Top Punch is available for this mould. Please order in the 'other features' drop down box above. For a description of what a top punch is, please see our FAQ page. This mould design requires handles that have the mould mounting holes to be drilled out to 5mm. http://us.castbulletengineerin...25HPGC-single-cavity What alloy are they using for 425-gr weight, please ? And buy a donkey in advance. I have not read enough there to figure it out yet, but mean to. I suspect that 425 grains for only 1.115" length including HOLLOW POINT means it is for an alloy that is pretty heavy ? Rip ... | |||
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Mike, An Australian varmint safari is on my bucket list, no better challenge for the .458 WIN varminter:  What could be better than mammoth marsupial marmot hunting ? That would be plumb Jabberwocky ! Rip ... | |||
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BBM, Nothing is off topic here. All support of THE MISSION is appreciated. Flowers to Doc M. from me too. He is sorely missed. He has his own forum, nice to drop by and lurk there now and then. Rip ... | |||
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I did a second run of the Accurate Molds bullet when I tried the Lee mould a second time in 1-2-5-92 alloy, unsuccessfully with the Lee. So I finished the pot of melt with the Accurate Molds 2-cavity mould, fast and furious and hot. Ended up after two sessions with over 300 of those. In total only 9 were 399.0 grains or heavier, but pretty, so they were set aside for lookin' at later. About 2 dozen were less than 395.0 grains: Ugly. Went back into the cold pot. 293 as-cast bullets weighed from 395.0 to 398.9 grains. That is approximately 397 grains +/- 2 grains. Add 8 grains of gas check and 1 grain of powder-coat paint to each bullet and my bullets are nominally 406 grains (+/- 2 grains). A star is born, I hope, the .461"/ 406-grainer.  Of course I will work my way through each batch, so any batch of loads will involve bullets that are same weight +/- 0.5 grains. The black slash on some of those bullets mark them for plinking due to some boo-boo on them, even though they made the weight. In fact the first trial run of P-C-painting shown above was on boo-boo bullets. Since they are all .464" diameter as cast, I thought I should try sizing them to .461" before painting, then size them again after paint makes them fatter. That worked well. Rip ... | |||
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The Wombat Bullet:  Two failures with 1-2-5-92 alloy, then the third try using Linotype seemed OK. The 1-2-5-92 alloy would have been about 10 grains heavier in this bullet. | |||
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 Low pressure COL for higher velocity loads with cast bullets and a jacketed bullet. There is plenty of throat left. The .458 WIN performance matches the .458 Lott at the 400-grain jacketed and monometal bullet weight, and it does so with less than 3.4" COL. The .458 WIN crushes the .458 Lott with longer and heavier bullets at 3.6" COL for both.  Rip ... | |||
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RIP, my mould was a custom and I expect that at a later stage CBE had a new cherry cut to make that bullet style available as a stock item. It looks very close to my mould though. I don’t know what alloy they use. In mine, with the larger of the two smaller HP pins fitted, using No.2 alloy the bullet weight is 415gr after the bullets are checked and lubed. I have 4 pins altogether: the original HP pin (which is massive), a pin for making solid nose pills and two smaller pins where the depth And width is reduced compared to the original. It’s a neat mould that has a captive pin and once you crank up the heat a fraction more than you would for solid nose pills and ladle pour, you can make a reasonable number of decent pills in a casting session. The most amazing aspect was the difference in accuracy. The revised HP size resulted in a marked improvement in accuracy. My mould only produces 0.459” pills and my Marlin slugs 0.4585” so it is barely oversize yet produces great accuracy. | |||
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RIP; I've no word from TradeEX re the 400 Woodleigh PP. With current conditions, I expect it will be months before they show up in this area. That's why I mentioned the 350 TSX again. Regarding cast bullets. I don't do them, and never have lacking appropriate facilities. Though at one time I seriously considered it, but was able to get from a good friend what I wanted for my .45-70s. But he moved back home to Saskatchewan years ago after retiring from Hydro Ontario. However, I'm hoping to make contact with him again. I still have +200 that he made for my .45-70s around 2006-2007. Most were (and are) 465s, plus one box of 470s (50 per box) which has never been used. The .465s are 50% lead, 40% lino and 10% tin. They were very accurate in an 1895 Marlin and NEF single-shot at 1900 fps. Also listed at .459". According to my micrometer, that seems right on. I shot a very good bear with one shot at 70 yards. It dropped on the spot. But they shot poorly in my CZ550 in .458. I tried them in my current Ruger .458 and, so far, not good accuracy. They were seated longer in the case but I hope to try again with COL still longer using a slower powder and speed. Using 75 grs RL-15 they averaged about 2080 fps. I'd like to slow them to under 2000 fps. We discussed this previously and I now have 3 loaded using RL-22, the same charge as in previously using RL-15. The .470s are harder ("X hard" on box). No indication of the "formula", but by their appearance seem to have more tin and perhaps additional lino. They are from the same mold but measure .4585". They will not likely obturate at lower pressure, right? So should I try them at max psi - as I'm thinking? I also measured, using my micrometer, the 500gr Hornady, 350 Hornady and 405 Remington. They all came out the same at .4577", and shoot accurately from "GRACE". I've not slugged the barrel (yet). I would really love to shoot something worthy of either the 465 or 470 from my Ruger #1. (Even a moose!) Any advice would be much appreciated. (And anyone else who want's to chime in -- feel free.) Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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If you are casting in Lyman #2, try powder-coat paint to add another .001" to diameter. Lyman #2 alloy is 0-5-5-90 (percentages of: arsenic-tin-antimony-lead). Rippe #2 alloy is 1-2-5-92, very similar in weight, and bigger in diameter if anything. I am no metallurgist. The Arsenic content of Rippe #2, as in wheel weights, allows heat-treat hardening which is not possible with Lyman #2. Wheel weights: Cast heavier and smaller diameter, and who knows for sure what is in the next batch of them ? Rippe #2 recipe is very simple: 1. 10 pounds of Lawrence Brand Magnum Bird Shot (size7-1/2) 2. 0.5 pound of 50:50 solder (lead:tin) 3. Mix in melting pot to produce 10.5 pounds of Rippe #2 alloy, better known as 1-2-5-92. Rip ... | |||
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Folklore has it that the HP cavity in the original Gould design was to accommodate a 22 Short round, which gave new meaning to the phrase ‘explosive’ performance. The big HP pin doesn’t allow fitting a 22 Short, but I did check. I plan to shorten the massive HP pin so that it terminates above the front drive band. I think it might still be useful for subsonic loads in the 45/70. I have a number of brass moulds now, not just from CBE but quite a few Mihec moulds from group buys on the Castboolits site. I’ve never had any issues with brass moulds. | |||
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I forgot, are your 465- and 470-grainers gas-checked and already grease-lubed ? If so, and if I had them, I would de-grease them, powder-coat paint them and push them through a .460" Lee sizer die. Near total elimination of lead fouling is possible with powder-coat paint. Might even work as sort of a gas check on plain-base bullets too. Rip ... | |||
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Bob, With my meager supply of Woodleigh .458"/ 400-gr PPSN I will use Daisy to test, to get Grace ready for the Canadian arrival of that bullet. The Woodleigh manual top velocity load for the .458 Lott, with that bullet, is 87.0 grains (COMPRESSED) of H4895/AR2206H: 2570 fps That is with brass length of 2.790" for COL of 3.460" in the .458 Lott. To equal that COL in the .458 WIN with 2.500" brass would require seating depth of only 0.195". That is do-able. Some of the old Sharps paper-patch loads used less seating depth than that. But that is not necessary. I propose to use 0.260" seating depth and 3.395" COL with the 400-grain Woodleigh in the .458 WIN, with AA-2230, to equal or exceed the .458 Lott maximum 400-grain load in the Woodleigh manual. With longer and heavier bullets loaded to 3.600" COL in both .458 WIN and .458 Lott, the .458 WIN trounces the .458 Lott. Rip ... | |||
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Rip, you crazy man, that little wombat might eat peanuts out of your hand. That said, I commend your tireless .458 WinMag research!  There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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They are not that little. More than one car has rolled when they hit one of them. I would rather hit a big roo than a big wombat. They are low to the ground so the front wheel hits them and they sure are solid. | |||
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I would love to have a mold where I could either place the flat head screw into the mold and cast it into the bullet or screw it in after it was cast that way you could have a non-deforming flat point solid or a hollow point depending on what you wanted to shoot. Call it the Screw Em’ bullet. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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There are many "things" one has to do pretty right to get a cast bullet to shoot like we have come to expect a Jacketed bullet to do. The big one, I think, is bullet quality expressed through both shape, and weight dispersion. Putting a screw up the middle presents some problems...I would think. Great concept though. Ross Seyfreid was casting hard bullets with soft noses and had some success. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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You can get screws that are pretty close in weight for pennies with today’s technology. H&H approves!  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Centered, straight? I sure couldn’t. Just a void in a bullet ruins accuracy. Put that in an 1-14 twist at 2000 FPS. Got some wobble baby! Give it a try though. Dmw hat is how learning happens. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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The hollow would be made in the mold or the screw could be cast in custom made to the screw. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Buy a donkey for those flowers, man. Everybody is crazy about something if they are alive and nonvegetative. Rip ... | |||
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I will look up that article by Ross Seyfried in the old G&A file. A soft tip on a hard FN bullet might be easier to make into a pointier one with a nose-forming die. Sort of like a swage-formed cast bullet. Use the pointier ones for longer shots if accuracy can be preserved. Possibly a minor improvement if not a total screw up, like I suspect boom stick's screwing with the nose would be. No plans here for a screw-in gas check for hollow-base cast bullets either. boom stick is alive ! Lots of crazy ideas. Good ones now and then too. Rip ... | |||
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Head honcho at CBE shoots this in his .450 Ackley. My only reservation here is that more than half of the bullet length is not full diameter, out front:  Rip ... | |||
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JFE's Lyman 462560 lives on at Accurate Molds, sort of:  | |||
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Here is another one that I like, from Accurate Molds:  Rip ... | |||
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I have coveted a couple of that makers moulds too Rip. 46-470 I think it was. I don’t want pointy anything on the nose. I want BIG, blunt and flat. BBF is stable, and hits hard at any speed. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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RIP; Thanks for your suggestions and offer of some cast samples. I don't know the legalities either. Yet a friend has brought several boxes (20 per) of live ammo across the border from the USA for his .270 Win without a problem. But he and wife had been in the States for a week or so. That was a few years ago, so don't know the current regs, or if they've changed. The 465s and 470s (cast) are greased with GCs. I've loaded a few for another trial when the range opens. Bullet length = 1.178", COL = 3.31" with one grease groove exposed. That's over 75 grs RL-22, WLRM primers. Whenever that happens, I'll post a report. In the meantime, best to you... Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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If you have a problem I think it will be at the American end. Quite a few Australians that wanted special mounts got Near mounts as apart from being tops easier getting them out of Canada than mounts the US. I see we are rapidly approching 200 pages for the thread.  | |||
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True. I am forgetting all about getting any pointier lead bullets. I have three too many of them already, and enough of the FN moulds too, except for maybe one more 475- to 480-ish grainer that can be sized to .461" after PC paint and gas check. sharpsguy uses a 475- or 480-grain bullet of 50/50 WW/Lead at about 1300 fps. But he is better than the average bear with barrel sights and tang sights. Essentially he is delivering the ballistics of a super-magnum handgun using cast bullets with his .45-70 rifle, out to 500 yards instead of just 50 yards. That is stunt shooting of a sort. Speaking of which:  A Ross Seyfried article (from link spelled out above) follows below. I will be shooting the grease-lubed .459"/ 409-gr with another loading: A starting load of AA-2230 with filler, 3.340" COL. That will be compared to the shortCOL, high-pressure load with SR4759. I will shoot the .459" bullets in the .458"-grooved Marcella, just for fun, and for THE MISSION, but I repeat myself. Rip ... | |||
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