Rip,
Thanks for those NF pix.
I love all those NF bullets for my .405 WCF rifles and my .458 2.1 and 2.4 rifles including a DR in .405 WCF and one in .458 2.1.

Simson Suhl .405 WCF and game:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

quote:

Originally posted by canuck4570:
I live in Ile Bizard near Montreal
for the 4570 fan here is my Ruger no1 in 4570
it has a modified ramp to mount a scout scope
this way the loading port is free and it solved the eye relief these Ruger have
the scope is a Burris scout scope 2x7 with ballistic plex

We spent a year in Sherbrooke in study of the French language. Later to Ville LaSalle for about two years before moving to Chateauguay Centre, SW of Montreal.

I was a big fan of the Ruger No.1 in .45-70. I've owned two, and after a year or so had the throat of the last one lengthened so as to seat bullets longer than standard by .30" making it the equal of a 22", .458 Win Mag. It was my favourite rifle for 20 years. About one year ago it was traded for a Ruger No.1 Tropical in .458 Win Mag. I didn't need better ballistics, as I was already getting up to 2200 fps from 500s, and +2300 from the 450gr Swift, but the recoil was getting a bit too much for my age. And concern for my one good eye persuaded me to trade it for basically the same ballistics in a heavier Ruger No.1. If you've read these pages you already know all that anyway. It's also Mag-Na-Ported, so that helps mitigate recoil as well.

It' was simply a practical matter, not fear of recoil. And I was a big fan of the .458 Win Mag anyway.

Enjoy your time here, and continue to contribute your experiences and thoughts.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I tried to find somewhere in Canada to have my gun Mag-na-Porter and could not find any place
where did you get yours done

crshelton:



That is a highly artistic composition for the photo of your Boddington Moment.
Well done with the .405 WCF Simson double.

What game critter is that with it's nose in the alfalfa ?

I do not have any of the North Fork .458/ 400-grainers at all, dang it.
Next on my wish list.

Putting a ruler to that photo printed large on paper, I figure the micro cannelures/grooves will allow it to be loaded like so:
.458/ 400-gr SS has 13 grooves, first 9 of which can be used as crimp locators for .458 WIN.
First groove COL ~ 3.27" minimum.
Ninth groove COL ~ 3.60" maximum.
Groove spacing increments in COL are about 0.04" to 0.05" between the min and max.
That will be a daisy of a bullet for the .458 WIN.

The .458/ 450-gr NF SS is 1.460" BOL with 18 grooves.
It has a hemisphere of lead exposed at tip.



The .458/ 400-gr NF SS is more like a "protected point" with lead tip flat and flush with tip of nose jacket.
I like that better.

Rip ...

Rip,
That is a large Red deer hind and she made great steaks, roasts, and burger grind.
Shot on a lovely ranch in South Texas. The coastal Bermuda grass was tall and thick and the game was fat and healthy.

Canuck45-70,
My gunsmith sent the barrel to Magnaport to have the job done.

Here is a link to their site - https://www.magnaport.com/

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Canuck45-70,
My gunsmith sent the barrel to Magnaport to have the job done.

Here is a link to their site - https://www.magnaport.com/

thank you

canuck4570,

When I purchased the rifle the Mag-na-porting had already been done.

This is my first rifle with it -- and it works!

Their claims are:

It doesn't reduce MV
It doesn't affect accuracy, and
It doesn't increase noise level.
It does reduce recoil (about 15%).

That all seems true in my experience after 140 rounds of handloaded 300s to 500s.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I had it on my first 458 and like you say

IT WORKS

Midway has no Woodleigh .458/ 400-gr PP SN nor HYDRO,
and no backordering.
COVID19 mess.
Send wish lists to order@northforkbullets.com
not an order, just a wish list for future production,
explained at www.northforkbullets.com
in Sweden.
Do it for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Obviously a superior bullet.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Midway has no Woodleigh .458/ 400-gr PP SN nor HYDRO,
and no backordering.
COVID19 mess.
Send wish lists to order@northforkbullets.com
not an order, just a wish list for future production,
explained at www.northforkbullets.com
in Sweden.
Do it for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Did you try Huntington Die Specialties for the Woodleighs?

Yes, and Graf's. Graf's: Nada.
Huntington's: 400-gr HYDRO must be out of stock at Huntington, 1 box of them is $0.00 there, in the shopping cart. Weird not to say out of stock there ?
400-gr PP SN might be available at Huntington.
Their web site is not as user friendly as Midway.
Says "Call with your credit card information" right beside the shopping cart in header.
Best call to see what they have ...

Using ruler on paper print of bullet image,
any of y'all with the actual bullet check my arithmetic, please:



For THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
...
Now, +2500 fps MV is attainable with 400-grainers from a 24"-barreled .458 WIN without pressure signs.
That is done with plenty powders nowadays, and the plenty .458/ 400-gr bullets are tough enough, if you can find some !
...

You can find some, I have though I like it a bit heavier...

Okay, What would happen if you took the case length of the SAMMI Lott, pressure of the SAMMI Lott, and the throat of the 458 WM.

In the manuals I have seen 2150-2200 is the realistic velocity of the SAMMI Lott. My the be because of the throat? I have not chronoed my Lott loads. If the Lott was given the 458 WM throat, then I submit manuals would have more 2300 FPS loads but not much more.

Tanks,
Buy a donkey for reminding us of the CEB bullets.
It would take a custom run from CEB of a copper MTH with proper band architecture.
I have done that before for other calibers, had CEB make a couple of custom bullets for my wildcat chamberings during my misguided youth:

.395 CAL 240 GR FLAT BASE HP, FBH M01 (BOL = 1.151")





and
.500 CAL 430 GR LD-HPBT-STD, MTH Y01-SPECIAL (BOL = 1.345")





The best I can do from CEB standard offerings is the 450-gr brass Safari Solid loaded to 3.340" by trimming the .458 WIN brass short,
fired at about 2350 fps MV in the SAAMI .458 WIN.MAG.
Surely a most excellent bullet if a solid is needed in a SAAMI .458 WIN or a SAAMI .458 Lott.




But that is not the 400-grainer at +2500 fps, which is the Holy Grail of THE MISSION

Rip ...

Paper patch 45-70 bullets?
http://www.bpgang.com/ppb/ppbcartridges.pdf
plenty of 400 grain cast bullets to wrap in paper.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Okay, What would happen if you took the case length of the SAMMI Lott, pressure of the SAMMI Lott, and the throat of the 458 WM.

In the manuals I have seen 2150-2200 is the realistic velocity of the SAMMI Lott. My the be because of the throat? I have not chronoed my Lott loads. If the Lott was given the 458 WM throat, then I submit manuals would have more 2300 FPS loads but not much more.

True, maybe even 2400 fps would be routine with 3.8" COL and 2.8" brass and a .458 WIN Throat In Toto (TIT).
We have discussed this previously.
The .458 Express with 3.000" brass in a bolt action is like tits on a boar hog,
compared to a .458 Lott with 2.8" brass and a .458 Win.Mag. throat added onto the chamber.
You would need a single-shot like a Ruger No.1 to take full advantage of that.
That is how the original CIP chambering of the .458 Lott was,
until it was changed to match the current, later, SAAMI .458 Lott, handicapping it considerably.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
http://www.bpgang.com/ppb/ppbcartridges.pdf

Buy a donkey for that link, boom stick.
Great guide for plinking with the .458 WIN which is superb with paper-patched bullets.

What we are most interested in is the high-performance 400-grain soft point.
The monometal copper or North Fork SS will kill better than a 500-510-gr soft point
with flatter trajectory and less recoil.
Even capable of over 2500 fps MV.
Brings it into the modern age.

Simply scaling up that CEB .395/ 240-grainer of 1.151" length



would result in a .458-caliber CEB of 1.335" length and maybe 374 grains, SD = 0.255 ?
Need to lengthen that to 400-grain weight.
Stiff competition for the North Fork SS 400-grainer.
The BBM T6 .458/ 400-gr is 1.400" long.
The proper 400-gr CEB flat base HP might beat that one too.
It would be better than the GSC HV 400-grainer,
a wonderful bullet but hard to come by.

Rip ...

Winchester's approach to cartridge design has always puzzled me. The .458 WM is a perfect example of what I mean. They had a Model 70 action perfectly capable of handling full length Magnum cartridges, but instead of taking advantage of it, they took the .450 Watts, nothing more than a .375 H&H case opened up to accommodate .45 caliber bullets, and shortened it, so as to fit it into a .30-'06 length magazine. Then, instead of complimenting it with two smaller calibers of known popularity, .30 and .35, they neck it down to .338 and .264, calibers which have never caught on in the US to this day , and left it to others to come up with the .30/.338 and .35/.338 and let Norma bring out in factory cartridges the .308 and .358 Norma Magnums.

I have owned .458's since 1960 and have killed my share of African game with them, but I prefer the original Watts cartridge, not because of enhanced performance, but because it can do the same thing as the .458 WM with absolutely no effort. It duplicates the performance of the old .450 NE with ease and feeds right through the magazine of a Model 70 Winchester.

I have never owned a .458 Lott. In the old days they had a word for someone who took someone else's branded stock and altered the brand to make it look as though it belonged to him. The Lott is nothing more than a rustled .450 Watts.

I also developed a rimmed version of the Watts for use in single shots and double rifles, and have a double rifle in that caliber made for me by Krieghoff in the 1970's.

I shot both elephant and buffalo with my .458 double rifle in 1971, but in my opinion the cartridge fails to take advantage of the capability of the single shot and the double rifle to accommodate cartridges of any length.

I have no axe to grind. I am merely stating my preference. Everyone is entitled to his own, but mine is based on a lot of rounds sent down range and a lot of animals taken with the cartridges I prefer.

xausa,

Buy a donkey for supporting THE MISSION.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
Winchester's approach to cartridge design has always puzzled me. The .458 WM is a perfect example of what I mean. They had a Model 70 action perfectly capable of handling full length Magnum cartridges,

But that action, Pre-'64 M70, is actually a .30-06-length action that had to be opened up
(mostly to rear, thankfully, by experts at the factory)
in order to accept the 3.6" cartridges.
Keeping the action length to less than 3.4" instead of 3.6" was not stupid for such a high-performer as the .458 WIN.

but instead of taking advantage of it, they took the .450 Watts, nothing more than a .375 H&H case opened up to accommodate .45 caliber bullets, and shortened it, so as to fit it into a .30-'06 length magazine. Then, instead of complimenting it with two smaller calibers of known popularity, .30 and .35, they neck it down to .338 and .264, calibers which have never caught on in the US to this day , and left it to others to come up with the .30/.338 and .35/.338 and let Norma bring out in factory cartridges the .308 and .358 Norma Magnums.

You neglect to mention that even with the 2.800" brass of the .458 Lott
one must trim it shorter to load many bullets into 3.6" COL.
The problem is even more severe with the 2.850" brass of the .450 Watts Magnum.
Yes, 0.050" more severe.

I have owned .458's since 1960 and have killed my share of African game with them, but I prefer the original Watts cartridge, not because of enhanced performance, but because it can do the same thing as the .458 WM with absolutely no effort. It duplicates the performance of the old .450 NE with ease and feeds right through the magazine of a Model 70 Winchester.

Using the .458 Win.Mag. in a rifle with M70 Classic 3.6" action (requires no weakening cuts),
is now a better option than using the .450 Watts wildcat in the old Pre-'64 M70, for sure.
The .458 WIN is totally effortless.
Exceeds .450 NE ballistics with ease,
or throttle it back to .450 NE level for comfort.
Does that even in a 3.4" action without effort.
The only problem there ever was came from some bad factory ammo,
caused by over-popularity when demand exceeded quality production capability.
The dedicated handloader would never have had problems.

I have never owned a .458 Lott. In the old days they had a word for someone who took someone else's branded stock and altered the brand to make it look as though it belonged to him. The Lott is nothing more than a rustled .450 Watts.

That is a good one ! Jack Lott was a wildcat rustler !
I hear that herding cats is rough !

I also developed a rimmed version of the Watts for use in single shots and double rifles, and have a double rifle in that caliber made for me by Krieghoff in the 1970's.

I shot both elephant and buffalo with my .458 double rifle in 1971, but in my opinion the cartridge fails to take advantage of the capability of the single shot and the double rifle to accommodate cartridges of any length.

Had you throated your .458 Watts Flanged like a .458 WIN, your regulating loads could have been easily longer.

I have no axe to grind. I am merely stating my preference. Everyone is entitled to his own, but mine is based on a lot of rounds sent down range and a lot of animals taken with the cartridges I prefer.

I have no axe to grind either, just hate to see a cartridge like the .458 Winchester Magnum disparaged by those who know so little about it.
You might say it has become THE MISSION to bring the truth.
The Grandpa Moses of cartridges has come down from the mountain.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Alec Torres:
Did you try Huntington Die Specialties for the Woodleighs?

Had to telephone call them.
No HYDRO 400-grainers there.
But the soft points were available.
400-gr PP SN on the way, good to 2500 fps impact, according to Woodleigh.

Rip ...

Works great in a standard .458 WIN.
Damn near equals SAAMI .458 Lott 3.6" in a 3.4" .458 WIN.
THROAT THROAT THROAT
Grandpa Moses has come down from the mountain and he is break dancing.

Rip ...

The Grandpa Moses of cartridges is now doing the moon walk.

Rip ...

You know you can neck the 458 WM to 400,416,423 or 435 and have plenty of 400 grain bullets and higher SD

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


Works great in a standard .458 WIN.
Damn near equals SAAMI .458 Lott 3.6" in a 3.4" .458 WIN.
THROAT THROAT THROAT
Grandpa Moses has come down from the mountain and he is break dancing.

Rip ...

We have an importer of Woodleigh bullets here in Ontario. Now to persuade them to import that bullet. They also currently have four Zastava .458 Win Mags with the M70/M98 action in 22" barrels at $795 cdn.

I think The MISSION is reaching into Canada!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
You know you can neck the 458 WM to 400,416,423 or 435 and have plenty of 400 grain bullets and higher SD

When I was a child, I toyed with the .416 Taylor.
Now when I want greater sectional density, caliber, and momentum:



Funny how the .458 Lott cannot be loaded as long as the .458 WIN can be with this 543-gr bullet and allow a crimping location on a groove:

boom stick has goaded me into wondering why I do not have a decent 400-gr cast load to substitute for the expensive bullet.
The grease-grooved 405-grainers bought in bulk for .45-70 Govt. are sized .459", optimum for .457"-grooved rifles and smokeless powder.
The .458 WIN requires a .461"/ 400-grainer.
Coming soon:



If that does not work out, then maybe this one will:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
We have an importer of Woodleigh bullets here in Ontario. Now to persuade them to import that bullet. They also currently have four Zastava .458 Win Mags with the M70/M98 action in 22" barrels at $795 cdn.

I think The MISSION is reaching into Canada!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
If you can get the 400-gr HYDRO to Canada, maybe they will send some along to the USA.
No doubt the 400-gr PP SN from Woodleigh will do for anything in North America.
I will be fiddling along with any 400-grainers I can find,
including cast.

I just emailed TradeEX Canada, asking them to import that 400gr Woodleigh. I've previously done business with them, and they've proven to be very helpful.

Covid19 is obviously slowing businesses, and closing some businesses, but that should not affect TradeEX all that much since it's 90% mail order anyway.

I'll let ya'll know what they say in response. At least the .458 WM users in Canada should be interested.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

RIP,

I sent my request sometime before your request for the 400-Hydro, sorry about that. When they email a response, I'll mention it and ask if Woodleigh could send some to the USA.

I like the looks of that 400 PPSN. I couldn't tell from their website what shape it might be without a pic. They do rate it at .340 BC.

I have a box (50) of their 320gr PP, 9.3 mm with an excellent BC of .457. The SD is .341, same as a 500 in .458. From my rifle using RL-17, I'm getting well over 2400 fps. QL gives 2464 fps from my setup at just under 64,000 psi. Since it's a modern rifle, I use the same max psi as for a .338 Win since Tikka also made a rifle identical in .338 Win. The brass is Hornady and easily handles that psi. Haven't yet killed anything with that bullet, so most are still sitting in the box.

But a 400gr/.458 wouldn't be left lonely in a box for long!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
You know you can neck the 458 WM to 400,416,423 or 435 and have plenty of 400 grain bullets and higher SD

Yes, but sometimes it comes down to how much platform one wants to carry around, and how much recoil one might want for impala, warthog, NrtAmr-deer, and hartebeest.
The 458 WM and 416 Ruger are both great choices, but I would drop down to 325-350 grain choices for all-around in .416".
So should I order a blued Ruger African in 416 or a stainless Ruger Guide gun in 416? That is truly a tough decision. I change opinions weekly. This week I lean to the Guide Gun.

Just a personal perspective on the never-ending thread.

416Tanzan,

Buy a donkey for that support of THE MISSION.
With your help, we'll be turning over to page 195 soon, well on the way to page 461.

Bob and I might advise use of the .458"/ 250-, 300- or 350-grainers for recoil reduction,
depending on the size of the varmint for the .458 WIN.
That is an obvious trick for a treat.

Here is some interesting recoil numerology for the .458 WIN.
Using cartridges of 3.340" COL for SAAMI .458 WIN MAG factory load equivalent:

500-grain DGS or DGX using 72 grains of powder: 2140 fps, 5084 ft-lbs
480-grain DGS or DGX using 75 grains of powder: 2200 fps, 5158 ft-lbs

Free recoil energy and recoil velocity are exactly same for those two loads in same-weight rifles, whether 8, 9, or 10 pounds.
8-pounder: 78.7 ft-lbs/ 25.2 fps
9-pounder: 69.9 ft-lbs/ 22.4 fps
10-pounder: 62.9 ft-lbs/ 20.1 fps
Call that the "Classic .450 Nitro Express" level of recoil in a 10-pounder, field ready.
The classic .450 Special Rigby of 1897 (first NE double rifle ever) did 2200 fps with 480-grainer, similar propellant weight, and longer barrels.

The hardcore retired their elephant rifles for that comfortable level of recoil that killed better than the old blunderbusses.
The SAAMI .458 WIN MAG can do that, easily with pressures only around 53 K psi (NOT CUP).
LOW LOW LOW pressure.
THROAT THROAT THROAT.

Now, try the 400-grain North Fork SS, Woodleigh PP SN, GSC HV, BBM T6, or PC-painted-gas-checked bullet (the latter to push the envelope).
Load it at a COL that works through your off the shelf SAAMI .458 WIN magazine repeater, less than 3.400" COL.
OK, call it the .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM V-3.4", barely non-SAAMI COL, maybe even all the way out to 3.395".
400 grains of bullet
80 grains of powder
2500 fps MV (submaximal): 5551 ft-lbs
Free recoil is slightly less in energy and velocity than the "Classic 450 Nitro Express."
Shoots flatter.
Greater retained energy at all ranges, significantly.
Zero it only 2.5" high at 100 yards, dead on at 200 yards, and point-blank range is 250 yards if the BC is as low as 0.340".
There is room to gentle down to lower velocity and still beat all.

Both Finn Aagaard and Phil Shoemaker noted superiority of the old .458/ 400-grain X-Bullet at only about 2300 fps,
compared to any conventional 500- to 510-grain expanding bullet loaded to "Classic .450 Nitro Express" ballistics.
Thus, the .458 WIN is "OVERKILL."

Rip ...

Bob,

Just kidding about you getting some Woodleighs sent to USA.
Whenever this Covid-19 mess is over Huntington's and MidwayUSA will be back at there usual "Woodleigh stockist" inventories, surely.
Sooner than later for you and me, hopefully.
Good Lord deliver us some bullets !

Rip ...

400 grain soft you say? Time to bore out the base of the heavy bullets and add an aluminum core! See how much faster they fly when the bullets undergo a Ron Berry-atric surgery. RIPs bullet weight loss surgery! see how much faster they go with the same charge. Call them 458 Lightening bullets lol

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

They also currently have four Zastava .458 Win Mags with the M70/M98 action in 22" barrels at $795 cdn.


Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Hi Bob,

I've owned 3 of those rifles, 2 of them .458's and they are fantastic!
They feed, eject and cycle perfectly straight from the box.
The only downside is they can (and do) split stocks in the bigger cals - especially the .458's
As I write this I'm looking at my own Zastava M70 .458 and can't help but admire the deep, rich bluing it has...
Great, great rifle.

Cheers,

Russ

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
400 grain soft you say? ... Call them 458 Lightening bullets lol

boom stick,

Buy a donkey for that nomenclature suggestion.



If the Lee 459-405 HB can be hardball-cast, PC-painted, sized to .461"/ 400-ish-grainer,
pushed to 2500 fps by 80 grains of AA-2230,
and shoot accurately ...
That's a bunch of ifs ...
I will call it the "Lee Lightning"
and it will be well named.
Long bullet for such light weight, hollow base.
Will try that before Bubba starts drilling of the bases of other bullets to lighten them.
Bubba prefers a pilot hole before he will even touch a bullet for metamorphosis.

Next up:
44.5 grains of IMR-SR-4759 with 480-ish grainer cast bullet loads,
hopefully at 1700-1800 fps.
That is about a 65% fill of the gross case capacity of the .458 WIN, and will use a foam wad filler.
Should be sweet shooting in an 8-pounder.
45.0 grains of IMR-4227 with filler will do about the same.

I will be using iron sights next on the .458 WIN, so as to practice up for air-rifle squirrel control work.
I hate a scope on an air rifle.

Rip ...

Rip, rig a jig to center the bullet for a drill press or use a lathe with aluminum cores ready to press fit in the ass end with aluminum suppositories. Make those cast or copper or jacketed bullets a high BC Lightening bullet. I’m sure a bubba genius like you can do that.

quote:

Originally posted by badboymelvin:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

They also currently have four Zastava .458 Win Mags with the M70/M98 action in 22" barrels at $795 cdn.


Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Hi Bob,

I've owned 3 of those rifles, 2 of them .458's and they are fantastic!
They feed, eject and cycle perfectly straight from the box.
The only downside is they can (and do) split stocks in the bigger cals - especially the .458's
As I write this I'm looking at my own Zastava M70 .458 and can't help but admire the deep, rich bluing it has...
Great, great rifle.

Cheers,

Russ

Hi Russ;

TradeEX Canada (I recall in my PM that I referred to them as "FedEx", it must have been time for a rest, or I'm a day older!) had pics of each. One had very good looking wood, but I wondered if it might be subject to cracks.

How heavy is yours? I've been tempted at times but really can't afford it, and don't need it, but wondered about the questions I mentioned. Also, how long the action? Same as the 602?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca