At boom stick:



The band structure of the Lehigh Defense .458/ 305-gr "Controlled Fracturing" is so much more civilized than that of the CEB brass bullets.
If I can make the CEB plastic tips fit this one, I shall.
These were the forerunners of the CEB brass hollow points.
My 2007 vintage .395/ 310-gr brass Hexploder made by S&H was taking game before CEB was a gleam in Smitty's eye,
with same brass HP format as Lehigh pioneered, but different band structure by S&H:



Now, CEB has a cult following and Lehigh is still going strong.
S&H was an experiment by lone AR member Macifej.
Excellent products came from that venture, while it lasted.

There are other brass Hexploders available for the .458 WinM. than come from Culting Edge Bullets,
but the best combo from CEB for the .458 WinM. is the brass 420-gr HP plus the brass 450-gr FN,
limited to shortCOL by the funny CEB band structure.



But hey !
Here is the tip on a .458 CEB "Reversible" combo brass HP and FN solid.
This could be worthwhile for shooting shortCOL with a .458 WinM.:

.458 300gr ESP Safari Raptor



.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Twists recommended for 305-grain by Lehigh: 20" or faster
By CEB for 300-grain ESP Raptor with Talon Tip: 20" or faster


Correction: "308 gr" w/Talon Tip for BC .250 NOT .340

The CEB website had a typo on the Talon Tip weight,
7.9 grains, not 2 grains.
I should have known better.
So the 308-grain, ballistic-tipped HP becomes a 300-grain FN solid when "shot backwards" without the tip.
Interesting ...
BC of 0.340 for a .458/ 308-grainer is remarkable.
Flat shooting at 2700 to 2900 fps.
That would have the KE of .375 Wby or 378 Weatherby with less recoil due to the smaller propellant charge required.
Shallower seated Lehigh easier to go faster.
Deeper sested CEB not as speedy.
BUT WAIT !
Could that BC be a typo too ?
Probably why I have not paid attention to the CEB ESP Raptor previously was because a claimed BC was 0.250 with tip and 0.140 without tip, first time I looked.
And the pointy, boat-tailed, little Barnes TTSX 300-grainer claimed a BC of 0.236,
yet the stubbier, blunter-tipped, flat-based Barnes TSX 300-grainer was claimed to have a BC of 0.234 ...
Once upon a time the Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN had a claimed BC of 0.420,
but that has shrunken to 0.340 lately.
What to do ? Just shoot'em at close range and longer range, chronograph, and do some figuring on the drops.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
[...]BC of 0.340 for a .458/ 308-grainer is remarkable.
Flat shooting at 2700 to 2900 fps.
That would have the KE of .375 Wby or 378 Weatherby with less recoil due to the smaller propellant charge required.
Shallower seated Lehigh easier to go faster.
Deeper sested CEB not as speedy.
BUT WAIT !
Could that BC be a typo too ?
[...]What to do ? Just shoot'em at close range and longer range, chronograph, and do some figuring on the drops.

Interesting if it’s as good as claimed
Although it looks like .251 BC in the downloaded spec sheets
Look forward to the results!

Buy a donkey to JabaliHunter for suggesting a look at the 2020 update of the technical data spec sheet pdf.

From here: https://cuttingedgebullets.com/

Go to ESP Raptor bullets all calibers:

https://cuttingedgebullets.com...=+ESP+raptor+bullets

Selecting the .458/ 300-grainer:

https://cuttingedgebullets.com...gr-esp-safari-raptor

Looking at the "More Information" section above,
under the .458/ 300-gr bullet,
they are showing info for the .423/ 300-gr Raptor,
a bigger sort of screwup !

So, going to the "data sheet" listing for all the bullets:

https://cuttingedgebullets.com...file/20/product/198/

For the .458/ 300-gr ESP Raptor, BC without tip = 0.140,
BC with tip = 0.250.
Recommended twist is 20" or faster.

That is OK but not so remarkable.
Please ignore any ravings over the ESP Raptor above.

Pointyness and boat-tailing just cannot make up for lack of bullet weight.
BC is directly proportional to sectional density which is directly proportional to bullet weight.
Form factor may be equally important but its effects are diminished by lightening weight for length,
with light-weight plastic and large hollow points and long boat tails.
BC = SD/(form)

RIP,

As you suggested, I calculated the BC for the 350 TSX using my chronograph, location of bullet impact on the target at 100 yards and drop at 300 yards. Also, I borrowed Michael 458's data from this forum. It all came out to about .328 BC for the 350 TSX. And I plugged in other data such as elevation (I asked Michael about his elevation and temp.), temps and RH for mine.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
That is great information which I do recall you saying previously.
I will take it as gospel for THE MISSION.
That .458/ 350-gr TSX-Flat Base has BC = .328, not .271 as published in Barnes#4.
Great crimping on the last cannelure with that bullet too, for 3.440" COL.
2800 fps in a 25" barrel is good in the .458 WinM.,
an excellent LongCOL loading with H4198.

Chronograph then compare POI at 100 yards and 300 yards, that'll do.

I have a lot of work to do in checking the BC of the CEB ESP Raptor 300-grainer versus the Lehigh Defense Controlled Fracturing 305-grainer,
and the Barnes 300-gr TSX-FB and TTSX.

But first I must compare the Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN with claimed BC of 0.340 to the BB&BMT 400-gr T6,
with non-compressed AA-2230 or compressed H4895,
2500 fps to 2600 fps.
And my cast bullets !

The 350-gr TSX at 2800 fps is hard to beat.






.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

I now have 30 rounds each of the 407-gr @ 2170 fps and the 579-gr @ 1399 fps.
Will try them at 100 yards and 300 yards and see if the Nikon BDC works out to 600 yard gongs.

Been thinking how much .458 WinM! deniers are like zombies, and that means like "Democrats" as first stated by Bob Hope in the 1940 movie
THE GHOST BREAKERS

https://www.bing.com/videos/se...iew=detail&FORM=VIRE

Of course, the 579-grainer needs a higher velocity load so as to join the plot above the
6000 ft-lb curve on the MV-Bullet-Weight graph.
That would be in the neighborhood of the 543-gr FNGC @ 2265 fps MV for 6185 ft-lbs KE.

579-grainer at 2170 fps yields about 6051 ft-lbs KE.
Same velocity as the perfect 407-gr load.
Does a cast bullet really need to go any faster than 2170 fps ?
Not really, except maybe for zombie season, i.e., looter & rioter control work.
Hopefully that sort of PAC herd shooting can wait until after deer season.
Take out multiple zombies with one shot, no need to waste bullets when there is a lot of culling to be done.
Take your time and wait for a cluster before you shoot.



Democrat zombies are about as smart as .458 WinM! deniers.



Hornady has a fun line of Zombie ammo in smaller calibers.

Handloaders have more options.



.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Perfect feeding and chambering in Marcella Winchester-McGowen and Bobbarrella CZ-Shilen.
Marcella is a 4-shooter (3+1).
Bobbarrella is a 6-shooter(5+1).
The Wisner floorplate makes Bobbarrella a 7-shooter (6+1) and the muzzle brake on Bobbarrella will speed followup shots, better for zombie control.

Alas, that leading .461" diameter band will not fit into a SAAMI .458 Lott throat if 3.600" COL is tried in the Lott.
I guess the Lott boys could nose size the first band smaller or seat the bullet deeper and forego the crimp.
Neither will allow the .458 Lott to equal what the .458 WinM! is capable of with this bullet.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

I am more of a 416 person than a 458 person. But, I do own one 458 Winchester and 2ea Lotts.
Has anyone tried / used the Buffalo Bore 400 grain load ?

I have seen them at a couple of stores. But, did not feel like paying the price of admission for first hand knowledge. I had previously given up on ever seeing a .458, 400 grain TSX.
Still hoping Barnes will offer that bullet to the general public. As it is now, I stocked up on 450 TSX for the Winchester and Lott.

Idmay375, if enough of us keep telling Barnes we want a 400 gr TSX they might do it, we have to keep trying

Gents, may I ask a question?

I hAVE NOTHING AGAINST bARNES BULLETS, BUT IS THGERE NO BETTER MOPTION THAN BEGGING THE bARNES COMPANY FOR A BULLET.
sURELY THERE ARE COMPETITIVE BULLET PRODUCTS.

wITH A RIFLE AS POWERFUL AS THE .458 wIN mAG WOULD NOT EVWN AN aVRAGE BULLET KIL MOST NY CRITTER EXTANT?

hydehunter,
I suppose we will see how the Remington bankruptcy sell and product line turns out afterward. I wish the Barnes company the best. Many years ago, I spoke with them regarding a 400 TSX, shortly after the 400 X bullet was dropped. Basically was told there was just not enough sells in the bigger bores. And that must people at that time wanted the heavier bullets in .458. Perhaps with Buffalo Bore commissioning a run, maybe things have changed. I think Tim Sundles did a pretty good job of bringing the virtues of the bullet to light, on his website writing.
—————————————————-

quote:

Originally posted by hydehunter:
Idmay375, if enough of us keep telling Barnes we want a 400 gr TSX they might do it, we have to keep trying

quote:

Originally posted by ldmay375:
hydehunter,
I suppose we will see how the Remington bankruptcy sell and product line turns out afterward. I wish the Barnes company the best. Many years ago, I spoke with them regarding a 400 TSX, shortly after the 400 X bullet was dropped. Basically was told there was just not enough sells in the bigger bores. And that must people at that time wanted the heavier bullets in .458. Perhaps with Buffalo Bore commissioning a run, maybe things have changed. I think Tim Sundles did a pretty good job of bringing the virtues of the bullet to light, on his website writing.
—————————————————-

quote:

Originally posted by hydehunter:
Idmay375, if enough of us keep telling Barnes we want a 400 gr TSX they might do it, we have to keep trying

I was told the same thing by a Barne's Rep in 2008 - "Not enough sales of the 400gr -- he specified the bullet weight... yet they continue to make the 300gr and 350gr TSX's. That doesn't compute for me! Why the 400gr? That leaves a hole in their lineup. Are they that close to closing shop that they "can't afford" to make a run of the 400gr TSX?

I'm not a business man, but I can still add, subtract, divide and multiply!

Market the bullet and see what happens! Are they afraid it will cut into the sale of the 350s or 450s? Maybe the accountant needs to be fired!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

crshelton,
It appears things are pretty limited in the 400 grain 458.
To my limited knowledge, CEB, Lehigh, Swift A-Frame, and possibly the Federal Bear Claw are the current choices.
GS Custom bullets and NorthFork may return to the marketplace, but don’t see them yet. The Federal Bear Claw to my thinking would be a very good bullet. But, perhaps my timing, I have yet to find them in stock in component form, and extremely rare in factory loaded form.
What I read, from what I consider reliable sources say that the 350 grain TSX gives very good performance on bigger animals. I hunt strictly in North America, so I am sure most any bullet would work.
We all have our quirks, but I cannot convince myself to use less than a 400 grain in the 458’s. A mono or solid shank 400 grain seems about perfect to me for any North American game.
I should be thankful regarding the limited choices of 400 grain 458 bullets. It did nudge me over to the .416 side.
I think I shall blame Phil Shoemaker for my fixation on the 400 grain 458. His written word of long ago, sold me on the 400 X bullet. This created my original interest in the 458 Winchester.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Gents, may I ask a question?

I hAVE NOTHING AGAINST bARNES BULLETS, BUT IS THGERE NO BETTER MOPTION THAN BEGGING THE bARNES COMPANY FOR A BULLET.
sURELY THERE ARE COMPETITIVE BULLET PRODUCTS.

wITH A RIFLE AS POWERFUL AS THE .458 wIN mAG WOULD NOT EVWN AN aVRAGE BULLET KIL MOST NY CRITTER EXTANT?

Bob, I agree whole heartily.
It baffled me that a 350 grain could sell and not a 400. The selling point for the 300 grain I assume, is the AR type cartridges. Just guessing. Though, Still shaking my head.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

quote:

Originally posted by ldmay375:
hydehunter,
I suppose we will see how the Remington bankruptcy sell and product line turns out afterward. I wish the Barnes company the best. Many years ago, I spoke with them regarding a 400 TSX, shortly after the 400 X bullet was dropped. Basically was told there was just not enough sells in the bigger bores. And that must people at that time wanted the heavier bullets in .458. Perhaps with Buffalo Bore commissioning a run, maybe things have changed. I think Tim Sundles did a pretty good job of bringing the virtues of the bullet to light, on his website writing.
—————————————————-

quote:

Originally posted by hydehunter:
Idmay375, if enough of us keep telling Barnes we want a 400 gr TSX they might do it, we have to keep trying

I was told the same thing by a Barne's Rep in 2008 - "Not enough sales of the 400gr -- he specified the bullet weight... yet they continue to make the 300gr and 350gr TSX's. That doesn't compute for me! Why the 400gr? That leaves a hole in their lineup. Are they that close to closing shop that they "can't afford" to make a run of the 400gr TSX?

I'm not a business man, but I can still add, subtract, divide and multiply!

Market the bullet and see what happens! Are they afraid it will cut into the sale of the 350s or 450s? Maybe the accountant needs to be fired!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Idmay375;

I have a mere handful of those 400-X, and in my current series on Long-Range Hunting, I suggested that would be the bullet I'd use in the far north of our province for a bull moose.

Like Shoemaker, I regretted their loss and expressed that to a Barnes Rep at the time. That was a dozen years ago. So for my moose hunt in the far north of Ontario I loaded the 350 TSX. It's a good bullet, but not as good as a 400 would be.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob, I will have to check your series out. I have definitely enjoyed your commentary over the years.
I agree the 400 TSX would seem near-perfect for all in North America.
I also used a 350 grain TSX this year, but in the 416 Ruger. Distance was short and through the forehead. Was / I am thankful for the bull. It had been a 3 year no-shot streak.

Bob's 9-26-2020 installment is "Long Range Shooting of Big Game -- P2" includes his reality check on the BC of the 350-gr TSX.



https://www.buffalobore.com/in...product_detail&p=589

Tim Sundles is offering the 400-gr TSX .458 WM ammo for $120/box (20 rounds) at the Buffalo Bore website.
It is not available at MidwayUSA despite all the other Buffalo Bore offerings there.

Finn Aagaard also touted the old 400-gr X-bullet, as well as Phil Shoemaker.
I have 4 little boxes of those old slicks.

They used ballistics like Tim Sundles is loading,
about 2250 fps in either a tight and slick 18" custom barrel
or a 22" Winchester factory barrel.
I bet the former rifle is sub-.458" groove diameter, possibly custom throated (?).
The latter rifle is probably the usual .459" groove diameter and SAAMI-throated,
and of course he loads them to no more than 3.340" COL, and probably no powder compression.
I might pay 6 dollars for one of those cartridges to dissect. Ball or extruded ?

Yes, I am biased toward 400-grainers too.
In my formative years with only IMR powders tried in my 24" factory barrel,
I settled on the 400-gr Swift A-Frame at about 2300 fps with IMR-4895 75.0 grains, R-P brass, F-215 primer, crimped on factory cannelure,
as most accurate with good velocity and a good bullet.

For auld lang syne sake I note the SWIFT BULLET COMPANY RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER TWO:

400-gr A-Frame, BC = 0.258, BOL = 1.130" (Swift measurement)

24" Wiseman 1:14" test barrel, Federal brass, F-215 primer, unspecified COL but < 3.340" with the short nose projection and factory cannelure.

IMR-4895 (Lowest Standard Deviation on Velocity, of powders tested)
73.5 grains >>> 2194 fps
79.0 grains >>> 2385 fps (100% LR/filling)

H-4895
73.5 grains >>> 2244 fps
79.0 grains >>> 2392 fps (100% LR/filling)

RL-15
77.2 grains >>> 2270 fps
83.0 grains >>> 2410 fps (105% LR/filling)

Above "shortCOL" maximum loads are presumed to be no more than 60,000 psi.

I have been known to get 87 grains of H-4895 under a Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN loaded to 3.425" COL.
BC = 0.340, BOL = 1. 152" by Woodleigh measurement.
2627 fps in a Shilen 25" barrel, accurate and uniform.
I estimated that was about a 110% LR/fill in Hornady brass.

Interestingly, 87 grains of H-4895 would also be a 110% load in the "shortCOL" Swift Manual load above.
Not recommended.
The A-Frame jacks up pressures a bit with pure copper jacket and thick partition.
I do not have any Federal .458 WM brass to check for case capacity.
Maybe it is greater than the Hornady ?

Headstamp on the Buffalo Bore ammo looks like it might say:

Hornady
( )
458 WIN MAG

The BC claimed on the 400-grain TSX is 0.324:



Above ballistics might approximate the BB&BMT 400-gr T6 at 3.560" COL, 2600 fps in a 25" barrel.
I will have to test the 400-gr T6 like Bob did with the 350-gr TSX.
I cannot help but think BC will be a bit higher than 0.324 for the 400-gr T6.

Anyone can make their own 400-gr T6 from the 500-grain TSX.
Make it 1.400" long.

Tim Sundles on the 450-grain FN solid he loads to ~2200 fps in the .458WinM!, some good stuff here,
and a more legible headstamp visible below,
yep, Hornady:



BUFFALO BORE DANGEROUS GAME 458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM

ITEM 458 Win Mag DG 450 SOLID

In my mind, true Dangerous Game cartridges need to be of large bullet diameter. I’ve killed a lot of game animals with many cartridges and I can say for a certainty, that if all else is equal, bullet diameter makes a huge difference in lethality.

458 diameter bullets, if constructed properly, are serious killers. In fact, you really do not need expanding bullets in 458. The bullet diameter alone, with flat nose solids, simply kills assuming sufficient penetration.

This 450 gr. flat nose solid is designed to penetrate many feet through muscle and bone on any mammal. It will not expand or deform and in my rifles, shoots very close to the same point of impact of our 450 gr. TSX load at 150 yards. Normally, I can get shorter lead-based bullets of 450 grs. to achieve around 2,200 fps in the 458 Winchester Magnum. This load generates 2,164 fps in my 18-inch barreled 458. I could have added a couple more grains of powder and compressed the crap out of it with the seated bullet to achieve 2,200 fps, but I do not care for the practice of heavily compressing powder charges with the bullet. This load is slightly compressed, but not heavily compressed.

My 18-inch rifle shoots this bullet slightly faster than my 22-inch rifle. Why? Please read this article “Velocity Versus Barrel Length.” My 18-inch rifle sports an old highly custom Marquart barrel as I had this rifle made over 30 years ago, for kicking around in Coastal Alaska. My 22-inch rifle is a factory Winchester and simply does not have as slick/fast a barrel.

The American gun industry has been duplicitous in claiming bullet velocities. It’s typical for ammo companies to use very long machine mounted test barrels to get very high velocities, but in the real world, with real firearms, you simply will not achieve those results. 23 years ago, Buffalo Bore started to publicly expose this practice and today we are starting to see a few ammo companies get honest with velocities by using real-world guns to generate published velocities. About 35 years ago, (long before I was Buffalo Bore Ammunition) I bought my first chronograph as I had a deep interest in ballistics. (this is being written in 03-2020) I was immediately stunned by how low ACTUAL velocities were, versus published velocities, when it comes to the big ammo companies’ products. When I started Buffalo Bore Ammunition, I chose not to be dishonest regarding published velocities.



➤ 2,141 fps -- Winchester, 22-inch
➤ 2,168 fps -- Custom made, 18-inch

Also, I am not a fan of the under-stabilization of 500 gr. bullets in the 458 Win. Mag. When shooting 500 gr. solids, the bullet will often fail to track straight in medium (read flesh and bone) because the 1-14 twist does not stabilize a bullet that heavy/long, well enough for it to maintain stabilization while busting through medium. Therefore the heaviest bullet we will feature in the 458 Win. Mag., is 450 grs., which is the way the cartridge should have been designed originally as 450 grs. of properly designed bullet, gets the job done with any dangerous African animal and the solids will penetrate/track very straight if they feature a flat nose and these do. A straight tracking 450 gr. solid, will far out-penetrate a 500 gr. solid that gets sideways inside the animal. Original bullets weighing 500 grs. were conceived as more of a marketing practice (WOW! 500 GRS! YIPEE) to the “heavier is better” crowd, than a practical terminal function and in the last couple decades, folks who hunt with the 458 Win. Mag. have learned that 450 gr. bullets penetrate more deeply AS A GENERAL RULE if all else is equal.

Shooters often say stupid things and I’ve heard several of them say that 2,100 fps with a 450 gr. bullet is just a glorified +P 45-70. Um, no! When I load this 450 gr. bullet in a 45-70 case, to max +P velocities, I barely get 1,750 fps……..which by the way, I would use in Africa on Cape Buffalo without hesitation, but I’d prefer 2,100fps if I had the option.

Our propellant selection has allowed us to keep pressures below SAAMI average max. This can become important if your barrel gets filled with rainwater or dust, etc., which raises pressures upon firing and you may find that pulling the trigger with rain in your barrel will raise pressures beyond the rifle design and reliable rifle function can be compromised……..not good when facing an animal that can stomp you into a pile of bloody flesh.

If you insist on using 500 gr. bullets in the 458, the 458 Lott will be the answer for you and we are making that ammo as well, with one 500 gr. TSX option. The Lott generates greater stability to the long/heavy 500 gr. bullet due to its higher velocity. (faster rotation of the bullet) Still, if I hunt Africa with the Lott, (and I’ll be doing that in 2022) I’ll be using 450 gr. bullets for my expanding loads and for my solids.

We are also making a 400 gr. TSX load for the mighty 458 Win. Mag. and Lott, for those that like the 458 for killing giant bears, elk, moose, etc.. The first six times I hunted AK Brown Bear, my guide used a 458 Win. Mag. with 350 gr. hand loaded Hornady bullets and swore by it over the 375 H&H hands down and he had killed many dozens of big bears in his life.

This is serious ammo for serious applications. Use it with confidence. Thank you.

More material for discussion, from Tim Sundles:

"DANGEROUS GAME" 458 LOTT
450 gr. Barnes TSX @ 2,350 fps / 5,517 ft-lbs
20-Round Box


BUFFALO BORE DANGEROUS GAME 458 LOTT

ITEM 458 LOTT DG 450 TSX

The 458 Lott is simply a lengthened 458 Win. Mag., so this discussion will include both at times. If the 458 Winchester Magnum has any deficiencies for hunting Africa’s Big Five, (and it really does not, inside 150 yards) the 458 Lott eliminates those deficiencies. Holding roughly 17% more powder, it alleviates numerous problems associated with the 458 Winchester, via improperly designed ammunition.

True Dangerous Game cartridges need to be of large bullet diameter. I’ve killed a lot of big game animals with many cartridges and I can say for a certainty, that if all else is equal, bullet diameter makes a huge difference in lethality. 458-inch diameter bullets, if constructed properly, are serious killers. In fact, you really do not need expanding bullets in .458. The bullet diameter alone, even with solids, simply kills assuming sufficient penetration.

This 450 gr. TSX load is the answer if you want an expanding bullet that will penetrate deeply enough for taking Cape Buffalo. Remember that this all copper bullet is longer than the typical premium lead-based cup and core bullets of 500 grs. or more. This means that these long bullets consume case capacity that could otherwise be used for holding more propellant, which means potentially reduced velocities, depending on propellant choices. However (this is a huge “however”) the terminal effectiveness of the TSX bullet is worth losing 100+ fps in muzzle velocity in cases that are affected by limited capacity. I know of no expanding bullet that works as well and penetrates as deeply, for their weight, as the TSX bullet.

This load generates 2,319 FPS from both of my 22-inch test rifles. With lead-based/shorter bullets I should be able to achieve over 2,400 fps. In fact, I could add more propellant to this load to achieve 2,400 fps with this TSX bullet, but that would mean heavily compressing the powder charge with the seated bullet and when designing Dangerous Game ammo, I have serious reservations regarding heavy compression of the powder charge……..it’s not a smart thing to do.

I have an African hunt booked right now, for among other species, Cape Buffalo, and this is the load I’ll be taking. It has no weakness/compromise, as most cartridge designs do.

The American gun industry has been duplicitous in claiming bullet velocities. It’s typical for ammo companies to use very long machine mounted test barrels to get very high velocities, but in the real world, with real firearms, you simply will not achieve those results. 23 years ago, Buffalo Bore started to publicly expose this practice and today we are starting to see a few ammo companies get honest with velocities by using real-world guns to generate published velocities. About 35 years ago, (long before I was Buffalo Bore Ammunition) I bought my first chronograph as I had a deep interest in ballistics. (this is being written in 02-2020) I was immediately stunned by how low ACTUAL velocities were, versus published velocities, when it comes to the big ammo companies’ products. When I started Buffalo Bore Ammunition, I chose not to be dishonest regarding published velocities.

My test guns are as follows:



➤ 2,319 fps - Customized CZ 550, 22-inch barrel
➤ 2,318 fps - Custom Montana Rifle Company, 22-inch barrel

I am not a fan of the under-stabilization of 500 gr. bullets in the 458 Win. Mag. and while the Lott version improves this situation some, 500 gr. bullets recoil much more and accomplish little penetration benefit over 450 gr. bullets, if designed correctly and the TSX bullet is of excellent design. When shooting 500 gr. solids, the bullet will often fail to track straight in medium (read flesh and bone) because the 1-14 twist does not stabilize a bullet that heavy/long, well enough for it to maintain stabilization while busting through medium. Therefore the heaviest bullet we will feature in the 458 Win. Mag., is 450 grs., (we will make one 500 gr. TSX load for the Lott) which is the way the cartridge should have been designed originally as 450 grs. of properly designed bullet, gets the job done with any dangerous African animal and the solids will penetrate/track very straight if they feature a flat nose. A straight tracking 450 gr. solid, will far out-penetrate a 500 gr. solid that gets sideways inside the animal. Original bullets weighing 500 grs. for the .458 were conceived as more of a marketing practice (WOW! 500 GRS! YIPEE) to the “heavier is better” crowd, than a practical terminal function and in the last couple decades, folks who hunt with the 458 Win. Mag. and Lott, have learned that 450 gr. bullets penetrate more deeply AS A GENERAL RULE if all else is equal.

Our propellant selection has allowed us to keep pressures WELL below SAAMI average max. This can become important if your barrel gets filled with rainwater or dust, etc., which raises pressures upon firing and you may find that pulling the trigger with rain in your barrel will raise pressures beyond the rifle design and reliable rifle function can be compromised……..not good when facing an animal that can stomp you into a pile of bloody flesh.

If you insist on using 500 gr. bullets in the 458, the 458 Lott will be the answer for you and we are making that ammo as well, with one 500 gr. TSX option. The Lott generates greater stability to the long/heavy 500 gr. bullet due to its higher velocity. (faster rotation of the bullet) Still, if I hunt Africa with the Lott, (and I’ll be doing that in 2022) I’ll be using 450 gr. bullets for my expanding loads and for my solids.

We are also making a 400 gr. TSX load for the mighty 458 Win. Mag. and Lott, for those that like the 458 for killing giant bears, elk, moose, etc. Although, this 450 gr. version will work well on those critters too. The first six times I hunted AK Brown Bear in my 20’s, my guide used a 458 Win. Mag. with 350 gr. hand loaded Hornady bullets @ 2,500 fps and swore by it over the 375 H&H hands down and he had killed many dozens of big bears in his life.

SAAMI gives a maximum cartridge OAL (over-all-length) of 3.600 inches for the 458 Lott cartridge. Because of where Barnes places the crimp groove on this bullet, we have an OAL of 3.617 inches (+/-.005) or .017 inch over SAAMI. These loads fit the magazine boxes of both my test rifles with the CZ having over a half-inch extra room. The Montana Rifle Company magazine box accepts the cartridge and functions flawlessly in feeding/cycling, but there is no room to spare. I doubt any magazine boxes are going to be so tight that .017 inch will matter, but I wanted to publish these specs…..

This is serious ammo for serious applications. Use it with confidence. Thank you

Compare the .458 Lott load above to the .458 Winchester Magnum load below, both with the 450-gr TSX:

“DANGEROUS GAME” 458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM
450 gr. Barnes TSX @ 2,200 fps / 4,835 ft-lbs
20-Round Box


BUFFALO BORE DANGEROUS GAME 458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM

ITEM 458 Win Mag DG 450 TSX

In my mind, true Dangerous Game cartridges need to be of large bullet diameter. I’ve killed a lot of game animals with many cartridges and I can say for a certainty, that if all else is equal, bullet diameter makes a huge difference in lethality.

458 diameter bullets, if constructed properly, are serious killers. In fact, you really do not need expanding bullets in 458. The bullet diameter alone, even with solids, simply kills assuming sufficient penetration.

This 450 gr. TSX load is the answer if you want an expanding bullet that will penetrate deeply enough for taking Cape Buffalo. Remember that this all copper 450 gr. bullet is longer than a typical premium lead-based cup and core bullets of 500 grs. This also means this cartridge with its somewhat limited powder capacity, the seated bullet length limits powder capacity even more and thus velocity, slightly. That trade-off is worth it as the way TSX bullets perform terminally, cannot be bested by any expanding bullet I know of. Normally, I can get shorter lead-based bullets of 450 grs. to achieve around 2,200 fps in the 458 Winchester Magnum. This load generates 2,140 fps in my 18-inch barreled 458. I could have added a couple more grains of powder and compressed the crap out of it with the seated bullet to achieve 2,200 fps, but I do not care for the practice of heavily compressing powder charges with the bullet. This load is slightly compressed, but not heavily compressed.

My 18-inch rifle shoots this bullet slightly faster than my 22-inch rifle. Why? Please read this article “Velocity Versus Barrel Length”. My 18-inch rifle sports an old highly custom Marquart barrel as I had this rifle made over 30 years ago, for kicking around in Coastal Alaska. My 22-inch rifle is a factory Winchester and simply does not have as slick/fast a barrel.


458 Rifles

➤ 2,105 fps -- Winchester, 22-inch
➤ 2,141 fps -- Custom made, 18-inch

Also, I am not a fan of the under-stabilization of 500 gr. bullets in the 458 Win. Mag. When shooting 500 gr. solids, the bullet will often fail to track straight in medium (read flesh and bone) because the 1-14 twist does not stabilize a bullet that heavy/long, well enough for it to maintain stabilization while busting through medium. Therefore the heaviest bullet we will feature in the 458 Win. Mag., is 450 grs., which is the way the cartridge should have been designed originally as 450 grs. of properly designed bullet, gets the job done with any dangerous African animal and the solids will penetrate/track very straight if they feature a flat nose. A straight tracking 450 gr. solid, will far out-penetrate a 500 gr. solid that gets sideways inside the animal. Original bullets weighing 500 grs. were conceived as more of a marketing practice (WOW! 500 GRS! YIPEE) to the “heavier is better” crowd, than a practical terminal function and in the last couple decades, folks who hunt with the 458 Win. Mag. have learned that 450 gr. bullets penetrate more deeply, AS A GENERAL RULE, if all else is equal.

Shooters often say stupid things and I’ve heard several of them say that 2,100 fps with a 450 gr. bullet is just a glorified +P 45-70. Um, no! When I load this 450 gr. bullet in a 45-70 case, to max +P velocities, I barely get 1750 fps……..which by the way, I would use in Africa on Cape Buffalo without hesitation, but I’d prefer 2,100fps if I had the option.

Our propellant selection has allowed us to keep pressures below SAAMI average max. This can become important if your barrel gets filled with rainwater or dust, etc., which raises pressures upon firing and you may find that pulling the trigger with rain in your barrel will raise pressures beyond the rifle design and reliable rifle function can be compromised……..not good when facing an animal that can stomp you into a pile of bloody flesh.

If you insist on using 500 gr. bullets in the 458, the 458 Lott will be the answer for you and we are making that ammo as well, with one 500 gr. TSX option. The Lott generates greater stability to the long/heavy 500 gr. bullet due to its higher velocity. (faster rotation of the bullet) Still, if I hunt Africa with the Lott, (and I’ll be doing that in 2022) I’ll be using 450 gr. bullets for my expanding loads and for my solids.

We are also making a 400 gr. TSX load for the mighty 458 Win. Mag. and Lott, for those that like the 458 for killing giant bears, elk, moose, etc. Although, this 450 gr. version will work well on those critters too. The first six times I hunted AK Brown Bear, my guide used a 458 Win. Mag. with 350 gr. hand loaded Hornady bullets and swore by it over the 375 H&H hands down and he had killed many dozens of big bears in his life.

This is serious ammo for serious applications. Use it with confidence. Thank you.

Practical ballistics for the .458 Winchester Magnum wildcatted to .458 WIN+P+L in a 22" barrel with the 450-grain TSX:




.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

A Remington-Peters .458 Win. Mag. case was sacrificed to the hacksaw,
it looks pretty good, similar to Hornady:



Of the lots I have checked, all but Norma are very close in case capacity.
Norma is greater by a few grains of water.
The other three are within a few tenths of a grain of water of each other, and all > 94 grains and < 95 grains.
Once-fired case capacities:
Hornady: 242.3 gr brass, 94.3 gr H2O
R-P: 236.1 gr brass, 94.2 gr H20
W-W: 238.5 gr brass, 94.4 gr H2O
Norma: 214.9 gr brass, 98.8 gr H2O (Norma claims 94.7 gr H20 in their manual).


.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

For THE MISSION:

The following should be important to know for those who use 350gr bullets in their .458 Win Mag:

Barnes promotes their TSX bullets (with the grooves) as reducing pressure over others without grooves -- and the same is suggested by other manufacturers who cut grooves into their projectiles, or have raised bands for engraving by a rifle's lands.

From my experience in using the 350gr TSX/.458", and the 300gr TSX, I believe that to be true: i.e., higher velocity with reduced psi.

I've also posted some time ago on this thread that the 350gr Hornady creates higher pressure immediately than the 350 TSX. I don't believe -- in fact I'm quite sure that I couldn't come close to the MV I'm getting with the 350 TSX from the 350 Hornady. There are several causes, and one being the blunt shape on the nose of the Hornady, RN or FP. There is little "ogive" to allow the bullet to be engraved gradually. As further evidence of that, consider the following:

On September 25 (one week ago today), I took two loads to the range:

350gr Hornady FP over 70 grs H4198, COL @ 3.12", new Hornady cases and WLRM primers. Not chronographed, but in the past, avg was about 2510 fps corrected to MV.

350gr Speer Hot-Cor over 70 grs H4198, COL @ 3.28" (a longer bullet), new Hornady cases and WLRM primers. Not chronographed, but in the past, avg was about 2500 fps corrected to MV.

On Friday, Sept 25 the Speer was more accurate.

BUT HERE IS THE POINT to be made: I always measure the cases' heads with a micrometer before and after. In this particular test they were all new (never fired) cases of the same brand from the same box.

While MV was approximately the same from each brand of bullet (within 10 fps), the Hornady had an average head expansion of 1.3 thousands more than the Speer bullet! That was not an individual case, but across the board! .5154, .5154, .5156 - Hornady 350gr vs .5142, .5140, .5143 - 350gr Speer. That's a difference of 1.3 thou in favor of the Speer. Also, the appearance of the primers revealed that there was LESS pressure for the Speer bullet using the same components (other than the bullets), fired in the same rifle with only minutes between.

The Speer has a relatively long ogive compared to the Hornady - is a longer bullet, hence also a much better BC.

So the old adage is true: We can't just swap one brand of bullet for another in the same caliber and weight expecting the same PSI> In this particular case, their MVs were about identical despite LESS pressure for the Speer, or a more gradual PEAK pressure.

Another point worth noting: The same peak PSI doesn't assure the same MV, or even close! For the 350gr TSX, my rifle will grant about 2780 fps MV from H4198. That load is 11 grs more than the 350gr Hornady load at about 2500 fps. But it shows no more PSI than the Hornady load!

SO, BOOK LOADS showing the same amount of powder and MV for 5 - 6 styles of bullets of the same weight and brand is poppycock! And especially when changing brands!

For the Speer 350gr I've gone as high as 2600 fps without any sign of excess pressure. For the Hornady 350 I've yet to attain 2600 fps.

Added for clarification: the expansion of the case head on the first firing of the brass is somewhat meaningless in the same rifle. But in a comparison with another load in the same rifle it has distinct meaning. My Ruger #1 in .458 has a generous chamber so case head expansion on first firing might be more (or less) than another rifle's chamber in .458 Win Mag -- keep that in mind when evaluating case head expansion on a first firing. Dies will NOT bring cases back to the exact head dimensions when new unless they are custom dies made to order.
Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

Buy a donkey for THE MISSION.
Lot of stuff for contemplation there, especially about bullet shape effects on pressure curve, which of course begs a question.
Could The Maz's setup show differences between the various bullets of 350-gr weight, Hornady, Speer, Barnes TSX ?

Yesterday I got to the range to shoot some cast bullets.
Realizing I did not have a 10-foot square target to shoot the 579-grainer (1399 fps) at 300-yards,
I decided to try 100-yards and 200 yards.

Here is my best 3-shot group at 200 yards:



COL = 3.340"

Temperature was 64*F, close to previous chrono at 68*F.
Plugging and chugging BC numbers, I get BC = 0.180 approximately.
This is far from the 0.320 of wishful thinking.
Maybe the G1 BC goes up with velocity ?
Edit: No, BC of blunt, FN slugs goes down as velocity increases.
Weight and length canceled out by the big blunt FN ?
OK, it is what it is.

Also, the 407-grainer (2170 fps) was about 5.75" high at 100 yards, and still about 3" high at 200 yards, with same scope settings.
BC = 0.280 is a better fit for that than the wishful 0.300.
Another fantasy shattered.

That 200-yard 3-shot group scanned above is about 0.75 MOA, fired with the discontinued Nikon 3-9x40mm SlugHunter set on 9X, fixed parallax of 75 yards.
On the 8X setting with the zero of the reticle for 100 yards, BC = 0.180, MV = 1399,
the 4 circles and bottom post line up for these yardages:
124
149
172
209
249
That is handy.
This makes for a slug-gun more accurate than most shotguns.
1-1/3 ounce slugs.
Comfortable as a BB-gun.
Blackhorn 209 blowing back in your face on the breeze smells like BP.
I remain impressed with how well it shoots, like compressed BP,
even with 85% LR/fill and foam wad filler for the Blackhorn 209.
Leave the scope on 3X for point and shoot to 125 yards.
Use the BDC and 8X from 125 to 250 yards if time for fiddling allows.
A slughunter has got to know his limitations.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

I had a 7 mph headwind for the above BC check.
That is 10.2 fps of headwind that the approximately 1400 fps bullet was bucking.
I have ignored that.
There was very little lateral drift out to 200 yards,
showing it was coming from very close to zero degrees.

1:14" twist is excellent for jacketed and cast bullet versatility.
I am thinking 1.400" is a great bullet length for accuracy in this twist at practical velocities.

Subsonic and long bullet length will require a faster twist.
Higher velocity with very long and pointy "VLD" target bullets also requires faster than 1:14" twist in a .458-caliber rifle.
I would not have the heart to build a .458 WinM! with anything other than a 1:14" twist, at this point in my appreciation of this great cartridge.

However, I was once cheeky enough to get a .458 B&M built with a 1:10" twist Pac-Nor, 19.75" barrel length.
Practical limits on that rifle are 2.240" case length and 2.995" COL with a magazine length of only 3.000".
At that case length, using shortened R-P .300 RUM cases necked to .458 B&M,
case capacity is same as the .458 WinM!, about 95 grains H2O gross.
Nose Room:
.458 Winchester Magnum: 3.340" - 2.500" = 0.840"
.458 Lott: 3.600" - 2.800" = 0.800"
.458 B&M: 3.000" - 2.240" = 0.760" (and that is being generous, 2.950" - 2.240" = 0.710" is more functional)
The .458 B&M loses a few grains of water capacity due to bullet seating depth required,
worse than the .458 Lott.

I had my .458 B&M chambered with about 0.450" length of PSFB for throat, trusting the SSK gunsmith to do that,
presuming that was longer than the closely guarded B&M spec.

I need to have that re-done with a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum throat.
Better with the devil I know than with the devil I am not sure of.
With same case capacity and same throat, it could be used as a single-shot approximation for the .458 WinM! with 1:10" twist.
It might even be able to nip at the heels of a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum when shooting sub-3"-COL loads from the magazine of the .458 B&M.
Doing good has no end.

Hoping to plug a deer with the SlugHunter combo for 1.32-ounce slug at 1399 fps MV.
Meanwhile Bubba wants the 400-gr T6 tested at 2500-2600 fps for BC.
A 10-foot-square target at 300 yards will not be required for that one.
100-yard and 300-yard POI should be easy at the higher velocity.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

RIP;

"Doing good has no end"

I like that!

As to my activities this October - November, apart from chores and other responsibilities, I'm hoping to spend some time in the bush north of here before the moose hunt near the end of October, and again after, and before the deer hunt in the same area, and again following the deer hunt mid November.

My load is the 350gr Speer at 2500 fps for whatever. I may yet get a deer tag, but so far it's a bear tag, plus wolf and small game. The latter two are good til the end of 2020... the bear to the end of Nov.

I'll not be baiting except for a coffee can full of bacon fat I'll leave in the woods. I'll place it in a good spot, go away for a couple of hours and then return being prepared for the presence of a bear. Other than that it'll be slow walking, sitting and calling to see what shows up... if anything.

Hope you get a deer with that 1399 fps load!

Thanks for all your good work.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
Nice push of the 9.3x62mm Mauser on your latest blog. I am sold, great companion to the .458 WinM!
doer of good.
"Doing good" was paraphrased from this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuxrL8KmtNU

And this is what we tell the .458 Winchester Magnum naysaying deniers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpwJ1n7g1pM

BTW, with a BC of 0.180, the 1390 fps 5-yard velocity of the 579-grainer translates to 1406 fps MV, not 1399 fps.

This changes little for the SlugHunter Nikon Spot On printouts.
The 6 aiming points on the 8X reticle become:

crosshairs-- 100 yards
BDC1-- 124 yards
BDC2-- 149 yards
BDC3-- 172 yards
BDC4-- 206 yards
Post-- 250 yards

Identical as before except the bottom one is increased from 249 yards to 250 yards.
Still point and shoot out to 125 yards for deer with crosshairs on 3X or any magnification.
Maximum ordinate is +1.96" at 59.38 yards.
And it is a more accurate plinker at 200 yards than any 22LR load I have come across.

I'll just call it 1400 fps for the 579-grainer,
a most beauteously shooting cast bullet load with no recoil to speak of,
and state of the art ballistics for 1876 bison and elephant hunting.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Now I got a bee in my bonnet about a suppressor for the .458 WinM!, cannot get excited about using one on anything else.
Stubby subsonic bullets (cast or jacketed/monometal)
should work even with a 1:14" twist.
I do not really need to go to 1:10" twist or 1:9" twist with long VLD monometals now, do I ?
Could certainly go with an 18" barrel either way though.
What a dandy squirrel rifle that would be, 18"-barrel with tin can screwed onto it, and chambered for .458 WinM!
Barking head shots ! Sierra 300-gr Pro Hunter at 1100 fps with silencer.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Stop chamfering when the weight is right.

Anything for mileage, for THE MISSION.
The latest T6 480-grainer is still awfully long.
The old style T6 480-grainer (~1.45" BOL, shortened at nose only, from a 500-gr TSX) makes a better smasher,
like a cup point or HYDRO.
The unmolested 450-gr TSX and 400-gr T6 (1.400" BOL) will do nicely.
BB&BMT: Bubba Bullet & Brass Molestation Technologies, Ltd., Very Limited.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.