OOPS !
Didn't see this earlier:

quote:

Originally posted by Wildcatter:
You win by tenacity RIP.

COP OUT !

I am not the preachy type.

Me neither, except when it came to the Preacher's Daughter.

I have never been able to beat a dead horse for 200 pages.

Thanks to your type, it has happened.

What I know about rifle cartridges comes from building them and testing them myself and from a physics background.

I have been having gunsmiths build them for me pretty regularly for the last 33 years,
including two dozen of my own wildcats, with five .395-caliber chamberings.
I have all the physics of a chemical engineering BS, on through an MD which does include a bit of physics more in physiology, etc.,
a bit more physics after that in aerospace medicine training and practice.
But I only answer your credentials with mine as the truth needs no bragging to support it.


There isn’t a thing wrong with my logic.

You made faulty assumptions to create a strawman to knock down.

We agree to disagree.

NOW ! THOSE ARE FIGHTING WORDS !

Sorry to intrude on Your thread.

So, the .458 WIN wins by the TRUTH.
To agree to disagree is to say that a lie is OK for one or the other party or that neither one of them knows what the hell they are talking about.
That is too much like the politics of the U.S. Dimmocritic Party.
Anybody got a copyright on that term or do I have a chance at it ?

Rip ...

Good night RIP...

Wildcatter,

Sleep on the physics of this,
Manson Lott reamer and Clymer WIN reamer:





The .458 WIN can also be loaded shorter than the .458 Lott.
Quite successfully either way.

Physics does not lie.

Rip ...

I never argued this point. A $30 rented throater reamer treatment to the Lott blows the 458 WM out of the water. Physics.

If Jack Lott made his throat longer than SAAMI, what the hell are we debating? Jeez.

SAAMI specifications doesn’t matter with any of my rifles. But an understanding of internal ballistic and a conservative mindset will keep me safe. I’ll not try to make my 458 WM something it is not. 2150fps (max) with a 480 or 500 grainer is good enough for me. If I want more, I will build myself a Lott or finish up my AccRel. And by build it, I mean thread, chamber, and throat it myself so I know what I am getting.

RC

Wildcatter,

You act like you are telling us something new.
We have educated you instead.
That is good.
Now you know how the original .458 Lott wildcat differed from the SAAMI .458 Lott.
That is good.
I too was once a grasshopper such as you.
I flitted away from the .458 WIN that I first acquired when I started making U.S. Air Force Captain's pay in 1984.
This grasshopper then landed on the .460 Wby, and sequentially, the .450 Barnes Supreme, .458 Lott, .450 Ted Williams Thumper (.458/.338 Lapua Magnum 2.7"), .450 Dakota, .450 NE 3.25",
and further .458 adventures on this thread: .45-2.6"-SWT, and .458 WIN-V, pick a V, 3.4", .3.6", 3.8".

I like the .450 Dakota best with 450-grain TSX or North Fork SP or FN or CPS at 2450 fps.
The .458 WIN-V will do that with same bullets and less recoil and more pressure than the .450 Dakota, reasonable pressure.
The .458 WIN-V will do 2450 fps with 450-grainer at less pressure than the SAAMI .458 Lott can do it,
recoil about the same, negligibly different.

I deeply regret having gotten rid of those first three .458 WIN rifles I owned as a grasshopper.

Rip ...

You win. I’ll go play with double rifles.

Thus, another Lottite champion is vanquished,
like a MiG trying to take down an F-15.
The .458 WIN is victorious again.

Rip ...

You’re funny. You vanquish no one. I just have a low tolerance for meaningless banter.

I don’t currently own a Lott and I happen to be building a 458 WM right now. Doesn’t mean a thing. I have shot, owned, and loaded for both before.

RIP;

Some just don't get it, or if they do, they won't admit it!

When I did the .458 manual ten years ago, I presented photos showing that a 450gr X-Bullet could be seated longer in my CZ550 than in a Lott. COL was 3.78" compared to 3.6" for the Lott.

I also discussed these matters with one of the top guys at Hornady. Interestingly, he gave me the capacity of their brass in both the .458 Win and .458 Lott:

.458 Win = 94.2 grs water
.458 Lott = 102.6 grs water.

He also gave the "freebore" of each with the 500gr Hor.RN seated to the cannelure. Going from memory (I don't want to go look it up), it was .71" for the Win and .26" for the Lott. So with the 500gr Hor seated to 3.6" in the .458 WIN it would still have a "freebore" of .45" vs .26" for the Lott, explaining why the .458 can do the SAME as the Lott at less psi, or MORE at the same psi. That was my thinking anyway.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Wildcatter:
You’re funny.

Buy a donkey for those flowers.

You vanquish no one.

Of course I didn't. It was the .458 WIN that won another one.

I just have a low tolerance for meaningless banter.

You should work on reading comprehension.

I don’t currently own a Lott and I happen to be building a 458 WM right now. Doesn’t mean a thing. I have shot, owned, and loaded for both before.

He may wise up yet.

Rip ...

quote:

Some just don't get it, or if they do, they won't admit it!

Some of us are enjoying the discussion but apply it all to a downsized version in .416" and 3.4".


In fact, my wife turns 74 soon and sometime in the future she may start asking me to field her 375Ruger when in TZ.

So, should I combine my 416-Ruger wish (a wished for downscale from handloaded 416 Rigbys at 6200ft#) with her Africa-based 375 and just get a stateside 375 for load development? These are serious questions for an eighth decade on the planet. Aktinson in his ninth decade is even recommending a 338 as an all-around. That is a pretty nice tool, too.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Some just don't get it, or if they do, they won't admit it!

Some of us are enjoying the discussion but apply it all to a downsized version in .416" and 3.4".


In fact, my wife turns 74 soon and sometime in the future she may start asking me to field her 375Ruger when in TZ.

So, should I combine my 416-Ruger wish (a wished for downscale from handloaded 416 Rigbys at 6200ft#) with her Africa-based 375 and just get a stateside 375 for load development? These are serious questions for an eighth decade on the planet. Aktinson in his ninth decade is even recommending a 338 as an all-around. That is a pretty nice tool, too.

If you eventually "downsize" to an all-around cartridge that will not kick the snot out of you, you couldn't do better than the 9.3x62. You can load it mild to wild. Bob can post his RL-17 handloads if he wishes that show that this cartridge can get to factory .375 levels in a lighter rifle holding more cartridges. I have verified Bob's results with RL-17 and and can come close again with 2000-MR powder in my 9.3x62 20.5" CZ. The over 100-year-old case design is really almost already a modern improved case, and is extremely efficient with its small expansion ratio and long .458 Win-like throat, allowing heavy bullets to be driven fast (compared to factory loadings) using less powder than the .375 at reasonable pressures. Lighter loads still perform extremely well stateside if dangerous game is not on the menu.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
RIP;

Some just don't get it, or if they do, they won't admit it!

How true !
Some have personal agendas, some are just stupid.
The former may come to the light eventually, as if by a religious conversion.
The latter: Can't fix stupid.

When I did the .458 manual ten years ago, I presented photos showing that a 450gr X-Bullet could be seated longer in my CZ550 than in a Lott. COL was 3.78" compared to 3.6" for the Lott.

The 500-gr TSX and the 450-gr TSX have identical forward sections through the fourth cannelure.
So that means you seated the 450-gr TSX on the solid base section without a crimp as would be possible with the 500-gr TSX on the fifth cannelure.
I have found that is exactly right for maximum length possible with either bullet.
3.780" COL is just off the lands by a about 0.0075".
Anyway, 3.790" is too long, it jams into the rifling, hard chambering or bolt won't close.


I also discussed these matters with one of the top guys at Hornady. Interestingly, he gave me the capacity of their brass in both the .458 Win and .458 Lott:

.458 Win = 94.2 grs water
.458 Lott = 102.6 grs water.

That is probably with 2.493" .458 WIN brass and 2.775" .458 Lott brass.
That is the length I have noted on new, unfired Hornady brass.
They will both hold more after they have grown a little with firing.
Hornady had to trim their brass short for the .458 Lott, initially when the .458 Lott became SAAMI homologated, to make it fit the old Hornady bullet cannelures optimized for the SAAMI .458 WIN.
They have subsequently shortened the 500-gr bullets so they fit better in the .458 Lott, that 0.3" longer case fitted into a 0.2" longer rifle.

He also gave the "freebore" of each with the 500gr Hor.RN seated to the cannelure. Going from memory (I don't want to go look it up), it was .71" for the Win and .26" for the Lott. So with the 500gr Hor seated to 3.6" in the .458 WIN it would still have a "freebore" of .45" vs .26" for the Lott, explaining why the .458 can do the SAME as the Lott at less psi, or MORE at the same psi. That was my thinking anyway.

Sounds correct.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

The bullet shapes and ogives do complicate things when discussing free bore.
Also, individual rifles may have some slop or run-out in their chambering.
I have done some precise calculations using triggernometry, precise SAAMI specifications, and a scientific calculator.

I prefer to speak in terms of an "Absolute Throat Length to GROOVE" and "Absolute Throat Length to Bore."

ABSOLUTE THROAT LENGTH TO GROOVE:

This is the distance from end of SAAMI maximum brass length to the line where the throat has tapered down to the SAAMI minimum groove diameter of barrel.
It is the distance that a cylindrical slug of groove diameter can travel from loaded cartridge until it starts to engage the rifling.
I have also thought of this as "Slug Throat Jump"
or simply "Throat Jump."

.458 Winchester Magnum Absolute Throat Length to Groove: 0.6725"
.458 Lott Absolute Throat Length to Groove: 0.2143"

Difference = 0.4582"

That is based on SAAMI specifications, or CIP if you prefer.
SAAMI and CIP are now identical for the .458 Winchester Magnum and .458 Lott linear dimensions.
Pressure difference between SAAMI and CIP is another discussion !

That does not take into account the further tapering in the leade down to bore diameter of 0.450"
where the chamber leade totally vanishes into the rifling,
and bullet is fully engaged by the rifling.

ABSOLUTE THROAT LENGTH TO BORE:

The .458 WIN leade is 0*29'30", about a half degree for the semi-angle of the leade cone's apex.
The .458 Lott leade is 2*, 2 degrees, four times as abrupt.
That is some more pressure let-off advantage for the .458 WIN, and a bit more effective case capacity increase for the .458 WIN.

From breech face to bore diameter in the .458 Winchester Magnum, length = 3.642"
Maximum brass length = 2.500"
Absolute Throat Length to Bore = 3.642" - 2.500" = 1.142"

From breech face to bore diameter in the .458 Lott, length = 3.129"
Maximum brass length = 2.800"
Absolute Throat Length to Bore = 3.129"- 2.800" = 0.329"

Difference = 1.142" - 0.329" = 0.813"

That is a whopping difference.
This will allow for the .458 WIN to produce more whomp and whump on both ends of the rifle.
The .458 Lott is capable of producing only more whimp on one end of the rifle.

Rip ...

416Tanzan and bcelliott,

Excellent to point out the 9.3x62mm Mauser throat.
That is a leade-only throat also, per CIP, 0*21'29",
more gradual than the .458 WIN.

9.3 X 62mm Absolute Throat Length to BORE = 28mm = 1.102"

Proportionally to caliber, it is longer throated than a .458 WIN.

I have a CZ 550 Medium FS factory rifle chambered for 9.3x62mm and it is a bugholer with factory ammo.
No flies on the leade-only throat regarding accuracy.
And the little cartridge performs all out of proportion to its size.
Acceptable for DG, you bet, good as a .375 H&H.

Rip ...

Recycled images with clarifying notations added, for THE MISSION:

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:

If you eventually "downsize" to an all-around cartridge that will not kick the snot out of you, you couldn't do better than the 9.3x62. You can load it mild to wild. Bob can post his RL-17 handloads if he wishes that show that this cartridge can get to factory .375 levels in a lighter rifle holding more cartridges. I have verified Bob's results with RL-17 and and can come close again with 2000-MR powder in my 9.3x62 20.5" CZ. The over 100-year-old case design is really almost already a modern improved case, and is extremely efficient with its small expansion ratio and long .458 Win-like throat, allowing heavy bullets to be driven fast (compared to factory loadings) using less powder than the .375 at reasonable pressures. Lighter loads still perform extremely well stateside if dangerous game is not on the menu.

Thanks to Mr. Elliott my loads for the 9.3 x 62 using RL-17 were confirmed as reasonable and safe using QL. He sent me the readouts based on exact data I'd sent. That was not based on CIP pressure (which is very old for circa 1905), but for a modern rifle, modern powders and bullets. That being 64,000 MAP, not 58,000. All results were just under 64,000 psi. The reason for 64,000 is that is the .338 Win Mag's MAP by Saami. The exact same rifle as mine has been chambered in .338 WM.

Therefore the issue is NOT the rifle but the brass -- will they handle such pressures on a continuing basis? I've only used Hornady, and so far no more issues than I've ever experienced in handloading a good number of Mediums at similar pressures.

RL-17 (similar burn rate to IMR 4350) is a double base powder with smaller granules and more nitro than IMR 4350. Therefore more RL-17 can be used than 4350, and it has more energy (according to Alliant powder). Never have I experienced pressure that has caused concern (any more than for a .340 Wby or .375 H&H). It is the only powder I've used that has given these kinds of results: 286 Partition @ 2622 fps avg.; 320 Woodleigh @ 2464 fps, and 250 AB @ 2714 fps.

From personal correspondence with some of my readers, who use other brands of cases, it has become clear that not ALL brands are equal in water capacity. Heavier cases will not allow the amount of RL-17 that I use without undue compression. Then, there are significant differences in the leade of some rifles, especially older European manufactured rifles. And not only the leade, but also magazine length.

In other words, there are significant variables depending on the rifle itself, case used, powder, primer, and AGE of the rifle.

Most of that applies in handloading ANY rifle.

It has been my experience over four decades of handloading a variety of cartridges/rifles, from small bore to the .458 WIN, that has taught me about those significant variables, and much of that is only hinted at in handloading manuals.

Including the great .458 Win Mag. With my first, I started below book loads and never graduated to its full potential. That came many years later from experience with a Ruger No.1 in .45-70 (used), and later with a new Ruger No.1 in .45-70 in which I had the throat "improved" by a gun smith to 0.30" beyond factory, which transformed it to ballistics equivalent to a 22" .458 WIN. But IMR 3031 (with deference to Hornady, Lyman and Waters) was a BIG disappointment in my .45-70s AND .458 WIN! Rather, I went to a slower burning ball powder that allowed 7 grains more than H4895 in the .45-70 cases. 68 grs H4895 was definitely max in the .45-70 cases with a COL of 3.19" using the 500gr Hornady RN. But 75 grs of H335 occupied the same space in the .45-70 cases as 68 grs of H4895! Since they are similar in burn rate, guess which powder became my favorite for the 500gr Hornady and the 450gr Swift AF? 2200 fps from the 500 and +2300 from the 450, at less pressure than my tested load of the 500 Hornady in my first Ruger No.1 .45-70 at +2000 fps (which was endorsed as safe by the head ballistics engineer at AA during that era).

All of that knowledge went into my handloads for my second .458 Win Mag, the CZ550.

The deal is (and was) that older manuals for both the .45-70 and .458 Win were well below par!

I took my lead for my first Marlin .45-70 from an old article in a 1951 Gun Digest by Elmer Keith, in which he stated in reference to the 1886 Winchester in .45-70, that 40,000 psi (as he called cup) would send a 405gr out the muzzle at 2000 fps. He used that load on many elk. Powders were limited, and I don't know how 2000 fps was verified, except he likely used some form of a Powley computer (which I, incidentally, have on my "old" computer and used for several years to judge CUP for the likes of my .340 Wby, though the list of powders was very limited). Anyway, I eventually worked up loads using H322 and H4198 to attain the MVs I thought possible. Then came along the miracle powder - AA2015 BR, a tad slower than H322, and I never looked back! That was the powder used, and tested, for me that produced 2015 fps from the 500 Hornady in my first #1 Ruger in .45-70. In the lab test, they had to seat the bullet 1/10" deeper due to a shorter throat, using the same cases, powder charge and primer -- COL was 2.83" instead of my 2.93" (same as Hornady and Lyman). That elevated psi more than I was getting, but still safe in their setup that also had a 24" barel vs 22" on my Ruger. They got about 2100 fps from a 500gr Hornady at "safe psi" in a 24", .45-70 test barrel.

I'm not recommending anything... just stating facts that have greatly influenced my thinking and experiences with the last two .458 Winchester Magnums. And a lot of it is just plain common sense -- that appears quite uncommon with those who bind/blind themselves over too much concern with what they consider " the rules". Or, "what everyone else thinks" or does.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I decided Marcella would make a better Sheep-Hippo-Varmint (SHV) rifle, being my lightest magazine repeater in .458 WIN.
So I did a scope switch, getting ready for the range to open up post Wuhan Woohoo.
Heavy SHV scope on light rifle: 23" barrel/.458" Groove



With over a 100 rounds to be fired, the heaviest recoiling ones will be fired from Bobbarrella, a
CZ 550 Magnum with muzzle brake: 25" barrel/.459" groove



Scope mounting is lower on Bobbarrella now since the Low 1" Weaver ring is lower than the Burris XTac 30mm Low ring.

Daisy is still going with the short and chubby Nikon and requires medium 1" Ruger rings: 24" barrel/.459" groove



The butt padding gets the "Unlimited" Daisy comfortably to 10.5 pounds and 14.5" LOP.

Open range coming, time to cowboy up.

Rip ...

Bob,

I guess your 9.3x62mm has the standard, long-leade-only, CIP throat,
proportinally out-Winchestering the .458 WIN.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
... The deal is (and was) that older manuals for both the .45-70 and .458 Win were well below par!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Amen!
The deal is now that SAAMI .458 Lott starting loads are a good place to start with .458 WIN-V-Unlimited loading,
and expect to beat the SAAMI .458 Lott on the top end,
using the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chambering.
The Lottite toadies get all jabberwocky about that for some reason.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Bob,

I guess your 9.3x62mm has the standard, long-leade-only, CIP throat,
proportinally out-Winchestering the .458 WIN.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
... The deal is (and was) that older manuals for both the .45-70 and .458 Win were well below par!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Amen!
The deal is now that SAAMI .458 Lott starting loads are a good place to start with .458 WIN-V-Unlimited loading,
and expect to beat the SAAMI .458 Lott on the top end,
using the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chambering.
The Lottite toadies get all jabberwocky about that for some reason.

Rip ...

RIP,

I believe you're correct about the 9.3 x 62 throat. The mag clip of my Tikka T3 Lite allows a max COL of 3.37", and if the action were longer the bullets could be seated longer as well. I know that from doing tests in single loading and from a fellow retired pastor up in the Yukon who has become somewhat "famous" as the 9.3 x 62 "king of the North" in 9.3 x 62 exploits. He posts on this forum as well. He has killed "everything" with several and proclaims your verdict that there is nil difference in effect from a .375 H&H.

My last piece on "when and why" I started handloading is now up, and includes a short review on .458-cal in .45-70 and .458 Win Mag, plus favorite bullets for most cartridges I've handloaded.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Great reading at Bob's blog, some of it copied here, for THE MISSION:

Handloading — when and why I got into it – P3

... .458 Winchester Magnum.

Even though this has been the theme of many of my articles, once again (for those who have forgetful minds or are only now being introduced to http://www.bigbores.ca ), I’ll boldly affirm that no cartridge that I’ve made handloads for, small to large, has the versatility — when handloaded — as .458-caliber, and in the .458 Winchester Magnum in particular. That audacious claim can easily be justified — and has been! With a little ingenuity, yes that’s “little”, it can effectively be used on woodchucks to Woolly Mammoths (if they existed today)! And the .45-70 could do the same if you leave out the Mammoths!

All that has to do with the caliber (.458″), cartridge, bullets and powders readily available today — not even to mention the rifles — ahem, we do need rifles for such don’t we.


(The CZ550 in .458 Win Mag)

Since I’ve previously written extensively in justification of such claims, I desist from doing so again. However, the projectiles available in .458″ are nearly infinite, including moulds for making your own. Anything from 250gr to 600s can be fired from 1000 fps to over 3000 fps! (Not the 600 at over 3000!). I’ve owned a couple boxes of Barnes Originals in 600gr, and I’m unable to find the few unfired that remain. Those fired were done so in my Ruger #1 in .45-70 LT at 1900 fps – and that wasn’t max! I figure that a .458 WIN could improve on that by at least 100 fps. The problem with that bullet in the .45-70 Ruger was the rate-of-twist at 1 – 20. They were accurate at 100 yds but some made slightly eccentric holes in the targets. That twist rate couldn’t completely stabilize those long bullets. I believe that the standard 1 – 14 twist rate of the .458 Win Mag would. At one time I plugged the data into a program and that bullet would have been fully stable from a .458 Win Mag with a 1 – 14 barrel. The 600gr Barnes Original bullet had a 0.05″ jacket and a round nose. A 600gr at 2100 fps is doable from a 24″, .458 Win – I’ve no doubt!

Going on record, I’ve stated that a premium 400gr SP would be ideal for the .458 Winchester Magnum as an all-around choice. However, Barnes dropped their 400-X from inventory and failed to introduce it as a 400 TSX when changes were made to that format. The 400 X-Bullet was a favorite of several big game pros, including Phil Shoemaker who lamented its loss. Though I make no claim as a pro, I protested its loss as well, and still don’t accept Barnes’ rationale for doing so.

Others in .458 as some of my “likes” are included in the following pics:




Above: L to R: 2nd = 465gr hardcast; 10th = 350gr Speer

Below: L to R: 3rd= 480gr Hor DGX; 4th = 450gr Swift AF; 5th = 405gr Rem; 8th = 350gr TSX; 14th = 300gr TSX.


Rip ...

Hey, bcelliot and 458 are correct about the 9.3x62 being a great cartridge.

But I'd as rather have the mild and lightweight 416 Ruger (or handloaded 416Rigby in my heavy-rifle-toting days) as RIP would have a 458.

My dream would be a Winchester Model 70 extreme weather in 458
I asked around ( live in Canada ) but gunsmith are rare here good one I mean
I was looking at the Kimber Talkeetna, its stainless, bling magazine same action has the winchester not certain if it has the cone breach
since the member on this 458 forum know a lot about rifle in 458 I would like to know you opinion on this rifle
thank in advance. Canuck

416Tanzan,

You and Bob and BC have talked me into making the 9.3x62mm Mauser my "Light Rifle Express" backup for the .458 WIN primary.
A wolf pack of two.
Surely a 9.3x62mm Mauser-V-3.4" would be enough to satisfy, but maybe some custom bullets for a 3.6" version could be imagined.
3.8" might be a bit much.
But matching the action length of the .458 WIN and the 9.3x62mm does have purpose for muscle memory enhancement.

The .366"/ 320-gr bullet has same SD as the .458/ 500-gr bullet, and both could be used at same velocities.
The mind boggles at lighter bullet pairings and trajectory matching.

If going the custom .375 or .416 route,
the long, lead-only throat would spiff up the ballistics and not hurt the accuracy,
I am convinced.
Maybe a custom throating reamer would be all it would take.

If I ever designed another wildcat, it would be so throated,
like a CIP 9.3x62mm Mauser or a SAAMI/CIP .458 WIN MAG, scaled to caliber.

Rip ...

canuck4570,

The Kimber Talkeetna and Caprivi were Remchesters last time I looked,
Remington-style cylindrical/machined-pipe action with washer recoil lug sandwiched tight between action and barrel, cleverly concealed by an overhang of the front of the receiver.
Throw in the Winchester-style Extractor, ejector and safety and the cosmesis is perfected.
The pro's and cons of a Remchester versus a Mauser or Winchester might be a topic for debate.
Anything for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
416Tanzan,

You and Bob and BC have talked me into making the 9.3x62mm Mauser my "Light Rifle Express" backup for the .458 WIN primary.
A wolf pack of two.

Though if going the custom .375 or .416 route,
the long, lead-only throat would spiff up the ballistics and not hurt the accuracy,
I am convinced.
Maybe a custom throating reamer would be all it would take.

If I ever designed another wildcat, it would be so throated,
like a CIP 9.3x62mm Mauser or a SAAMI/CIP .458 WIN MAG, scaled to caliber.

Rip ...

You're welcome.

Several years ago we discussed a 9.3x62 for Lady Tanzan, but TZ laws demanded .375, should she ever want a buffalo, legally. Meanwhile, I like more than 375, which led me to my current 500.

All Kimber rifles from Yonkers are as RIP described. The action is cylindrical with a washer type recoil lug.

The safety is the 3 position Wing type wake a long, claw extractor, and blade ejector at the back of the action like Winchester with a slot the ejector jumps into when the bolt comes all the way back.

I do not know if the claw grabs/controls the round from the magazine. You can close the bolt on a round that was pushed into the chamber by the bolt.

I have a Caprivi. I will check on CRF from magazine when I am home tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
canuck4570,

The Kimber Talkeetna and Caprivi were Remchesters last time I looked,
Remington-style cylindrical/machined-pipe action with washer recoil lug sandwiched tight between action and barrel, cleverly concealed by an overhang of the front of the receiver.
Throw in the Winchester-style Extractor, ejector and safety and the cosmesis is perfected.
The pro's and cons of a Remchester versus a Mauser or Winchester might be a topic for debate.
Anything for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

thank
I guess I will go with winchester
up to now I had the push feed winchester version and also the controlled feed one
the controlled feed one had a 2 pieces floor plate and had trouble with it but the feeding was great even when using wide flat nose cast bullet. I loved that cone breach
at the present I am shooting a Sako brown bear in 459 Rigby but its not versitile for cast shoots well but not for me. ...

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
All Kimber rifles from Yonkers are as RIP described. The action is cylindrical with a washer type recoil lug.

The safety is the 3 position Wing type wake a long, claw extractor, and blade ejector at the back of the action like Winchester with a slot the ejector jumps into when the bolt comes all the way back.

I do not know if the claw grabs/controls the round from the magazine. You can close the bolt on a round that was pushed into the chamber by the bolt.

I have a Caprivi. I will check on CRF from magazine when I am home tomorrow.

could you tell me it your Caprivi has a cone breach like the winchester

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I have a Caprivi. I will check on CRF from magazine when I am home tomorrow.

I expect it will work just like a Winchester M70 Classic on the feed/extractoion/ejection but
I wonder if they have a coned breech with an extractor cut like the M70, or more like a Mauser ?
Is the round-bottomed pipe action more accurate than the flat-bottomed M70 ?
Which primary recoil lug is bigger in surface area ?

Rip ...

Caliber 9.3mm
Type ........... BANDED SOLID by Barnes Bullets
Weight.......... 286 grains
Diameter....... .366
S.D........... 0.305
B.C........... 0.247
Length ....... 1.427"
Box QTY50
Catalog #30467

Blasted RN and awfully long for caliber, speaking of which:



Caliber 9.3mm
Type ........... TSX FB
Weight ......... 286 grains
Diameter ....... .366"
S.D. ......... .305
B.C. ......... .411
Length ....... 1.525"
Box QTY50
Catalog #30473

Shades of the .458"/ 500-gr TSX, or worse !

Rip ...

Another stimulus from Bob's most recent blog is the .458"/ 600-grain Barnes Original RNSP.
Seems to have been discontinued by Barnes, but I have a dusty box or two of them for purposes of THE MISSION:



It is about 0.116" shorter than my lot of .458"/ 500-gr TSX (1.670").
Ought to mushroom promptly and be terminally stable if it hangs together well enough, non-bonded.
The Woodleigh Weldcore .458"/ 550-gr RNSN is 1.414" and their .458"/ 550-gr FMJ is 1.521", almost as long as the B.O. 600-grainer.

More fodder for THE MISSION:
.458 WIN loads with 600-grainers of historical interest,
9.3x62mm Mauser-LongCOL light backup: 9.3x62mm M-L
Should be no problem getting THE MISSION to 461 pages or more ...

Rip ...

RIP, I like your idea of a 9.3 longCOL understudy to the .458 Win. My CZ allows a COL of 3.45", but I've wondered about seating out monometallic bullets to 3.6" in a longer action.

That first picture of the no-cannelure .458 Win longCOL 600 grainer seated to 3.79" reminds me of a shoulderless 6.5x55 with a long 160 grain round nose sticking way out of the case. Speaking of which, the 6.5 Swedish original chamber throat (and maybe some modern ones?) was quite long for caliber and gradually tapered as well. Perhaps that is why that cartridge also became so popular and well-regarded for its performance? My favorite trio of bolt action hunting rifles for everything are the 6.5x55 (26 caliber), 9.3x62 (36 caliber), and .458 Win (46 caliber). We must have a certain symmetry after all.

Thanks RIP for all that great photo work!

That pic of the 600gr reminds me of the BO 300gr/.358 cal. I had a couple boxes of those as well. When I got out of .358-cal, I sent the remainder to my friend ( www.35cal.com ). He and I used to hunt bears and moose when he lived here -- later he moved further north (closer to the big game).

He was the guy who got me into RL-17 for the 9.3 x 62. I wasn't even aware of its existence til then.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca