Did I miss someone’s recipe for 450 gr Barnes solids and sorts at an easy 2250?

THE MISSION is getting some great support!
Many sorties flown in the last 24 hours, thanks to all flyers. After Action reports to follow.

jrn,

Made your neat photo just about 33% smaller, and ran it through auto-correct and HD enhancement:



Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thinking of pictures, RIP, I finally posted some more in AR using imgur, but heard nothing more of "Zoinks!"

Getting them to open up automatically seems to be a skill I've forgotten, though.

I still get the "Zoinks!," so just arrow back and continue.
Getting the pics to open automatically?
You mean here, from hosting on Imgur?
They make it really easy, just over on the right side of your pic at Imgur, they offer various sizings of the image and a copy button for each, then paste where you want it to open.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Thanks RIP for those pages from Hatcher's Notebook. I hadn't seen them before.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

Stay tuned for Hatcher's article from GUN DIGEST 1957.
Bobbarella Shilen CZ lives, details to follow.

4sixteen,

You have made up for your lack of powder charge revelations by posting some great rifle pics.
I have one just like your .416 Ruger M77 Hawkeye Alaskan.
I like rifle pics.

Rip ...

Bobbarrela Shilen CZ:



CZ 550 Magnum action will hold 5 down plus one in chamber with factory bottom metal as shown.
A 0.1" extra-drop floorplate by Wisner makes it a 6 + 1 sevenshooter.
COL of 3.8" works through the magazine box,
reinforced at front by R. McGee.

Shilen barrel is 25.09" long, so I will just call it 25", without the screw-on-off KDF muzzle brake.
No. 5 Shilen "Light Varmint" contour was bobbed at both ends.
Muzzle diameter would be 0.710" at 25" length now, but the knurling on the visually-flush thread protector roughs that out a little bigger, about 0.725".
The Shilen blank was a little over 28" (~ 28-1/8")
and 1.5" were cut off each end of the blank.

Stock is Bell & Carlson "CZ/Kevlar/Aramid" with full metal endoskeleton.
No secondary lug on barrel is warranted.

Weight is 8 lbs. 11 oz. = 8.6875 pounds, and a little muzzle-heavy/butt-light.
Adding the 5-ounce custom Picatinny makes it 9.0 pounds exactly, and balances it on the front action screw.

Rip ...

The 8x40 hole spacing is that of a jig used to drill and tap milsurp M98 actions:
0.5" on centers at rear and about 0.85" at front of action.
The holes can be filled with filler screws if OEM CZ rings are used.

Rip ...

The muzzle brake adds 1.5" to rifle length when screwed on (in secret) for bench work.
It is not meant to be pretty, a real man would never be seen with one of those on his hunting rifle.

Rip ...

A stainless swivel stud will be placed on the forend tip.
I can do those myself.

Rusty did the rail like this after a suggestion from me that the stilts on the bottom could be used as a recoil stop.
Both nubbins are bearing on the back face of the receiver ring.
I will glass bed (with J-B Weld) the entire underside of the Picatinny, and it will have strong bearing, with no gaps.
It will be removable by screwdriver, Torx T-15, 8x40.

That base, at 5 ounces could be lightened by more than one ounce by cutting about 1.5" out of the middle.
Yes a 2-piece base with overhang at both ends of the action port.
Another one is coming to match the holes on this action.
A heavy, third screw through the front base could be used as a recoil stop, J-B-bedded like the recoil stops on the one-piece base.
I think it can be done with those high-quality, stainless Virgin Valley Arms bases shown previously on this thread.
But the Seyfried Schtick will be on the front base, schticking rearward to accommodate the recoil stop.
Also removable with a screw driver, no torch required.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:

....458 Lott custom Sako AV


...

This rifle looks a lot like the 'Hunter' model they sold out here in the mid '80s.

I don't suppose yours has the bolt's gas port bleeding into the left-lug runway, by any chance? I reviewed one in 9.3x62 that did - and took exception to it, though the magazine management wouldn't print my comments.

For all the quality Sako put into their rifles, I could never understand why their skimpy bolt shrouds didn't cover that runway, or why they would have gas porting anywhere near it.

Well you convinced me. Now that I have a CZ 458 I have some questions for RIP
What are the lowest mounts that fit the stock receiver?
Have you done any futher testing with powder coated bullets?
What part of Kentucky my father was from Union county.
Kind regards
Pavementends

Hi pavementends1,

Another new flyer on a sortie for THE MISSION!
Excellent.

quote:

Originally posted by pavementends1:
Well you convinced me. Now that I have a CZ 458 I have some questions for RIP
What are the lowest mounts that fit the stock receiver?

That depends on the size of the ocular bell of the scope. If you use the Leupold 2.5x20mm Ultralight, you can use lowest available mounts,
and still work the bolt, like with the discontinued Warne LOW QD lever rings for CZ shown here:



However, that scope is too short for the action and you end up placing the rings around the objective lens inside the scope tube. That lens cap is not fully seated over the objective end of the tube.
It conceals how little scope tube sticks out in front of the ring.
Cracked glass likely.
What the low Picatinny is about is being able to use LOW Burris Xtreme Tactical and LOW QRW rings
with the short scopes.
But even that comes out in height to be about same as the standard/MEDIUM OEM CZ rings.



You are best off sticking with the OEM CZ rings of standard/"MEDIUM" height which will allow you to use the bigger ocular bells,
and longer mounting length of tube, of the low-power variables, like Nikon and Leupold 1-4x20mm and 1.5-5x20mm.
There is no stronger setup than OEM CZ rings on a CZ 550 Magnum. Main mounting bolts/screws torqued to 65 inch-pounds.

Here is the discontinued Nikon "Big African" with 30mm tube and fat ocular bell in "standard/Medium" 30mm OEM CZ 550 Magnum rings:





Have you done any futher testing with powder coated bullets?

I have not done any, but I am ordering 2 pounds of the stuff, of smaller than 5 micron powder grain size.
I want the barrel of Bobbarella coated inside with it, coming off of the 350-grain TSX bullets coated with it.

What part of Kentucky my father was from Union county.

I am in Western KY, Daviess Co., east of Union Co., with Henderson Co. between us. My brother-in-law lives in Union Co.
Mom and Dad's families both came to KY in 1790, before statehood in 1792.
Pop's folks started up Berry's Lick community, now just a spring in the middle of a soybean field,
in Butler County.
Kind regards
Pavementends

Thanks for support of THE MISSION.
Are you in Mississippi?
I started grade school there, at Franklin Academy in Columbus Mississippi.
Pop was in the USAF at Columbus AFB.
My first grade teacher was Mrs. Estes, and she was a witch!
I spent my first 25-cent weekly allowance on comic books, not candy, like my silly brothers and baby sister.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Did I miss someone’s recipe for 450 gr Barnes solids and sorts at an easy 2250?

Excerpt for book review of BARNES RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER 4:



Book Review: Good Book.
The barrel used for data above was a 24" Wiseman 1:14" twist.
Primer: GM215M
Case: W-W trimmed to 2.490"

Below, some of my data from Chimera WinCZechster with a 24-7/8" CZ take-off barrel (1:14"), GM215M primer, Hornady case trimmed to 2.490"
North Fork FP solid bullet, crimped at 3.485" COL:

Rip ...

Those funny CEB bands require slightly shorter brass to keep it under 3.340" COL.
But if you let it go to 3.360" COL the SAAMI police will not arrest you.

CEB 450-gr Safari Solid
COL = 3.360" (only 0.020" LongCOL)
Hornady case 2.490"
GM215M primer
77.0 grains of AA-2230
55*F
5-shot average:
5-yard instrumental velocity = 2343 fps, ES = 12 fps, St.Dev. = 4 fps
BC = 0.190
Corrected to MV = 2365 fps

Rip ...

Sweet! Thanks for the info!

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:

....458 Lott custom Sako AV


...

This rifle looks a lot like the 'Hunter' model they sold out here in the mid '80s.

I don't suppose yours has the bolt's gas port bleeding into the left-lug runway, by any chance? I reviewed one in 9.3x62 that did - and took exception to it, though the magazine management wouldn't print my comments.

For all the quality Sako put into their rifles, I could never understand why their skimpy bolt shrouds didn't cover that runway, or why they would have gas porting anywhere near it.

Hunter model. Receiver port as shown. No issues over many years of use.

My hunting load is the 300gr TSX at a mild 2600 fps. 1 shot dead right there medium range big Bull Elk stomper.

Thanks 4sixteen,
could you take out the bolt and look at the gas port up near the lugs? The model I reviewed had it pointing left in the closed position, which would have vented into the lug runway. I wonder if my gaffer may have passed on my complaint to Winchester/Sako, though, because I looked at another Hunter model a year later (about 1988?) and saw that the vent had been moved back to the r/h side, as it is on my 1979/'80 Finnbear.

An AV bolt. But not from my 1991 production rifle. Never thought it could be an issue. I'll have a look when I get back home next week.

The early 1990's Sako integral scope bases paired with that vintage of factory Sako rings were the cat's meow.
A shrewd gunsmith in Alaska traded me out of one of those rifles in return for his services.
I was such a nice guy on that deal.
Later Optilocks requiring a base to go on the integral dovetail, and then a ring to go on a stud on that base ... Rube Goldberg comes to mind.

Bobbarrela's Shilen barrel slugs about .4585" in the grooves.
Her throat is right at the SAAMI minimum length for SLUG JUMP.
My Rod & Slug method of throat length measurement may not be accurate enough to read to the nearest .0001",
so I will just say there appears to be no slop in this rifle.
She ought to be fast.
It must have been chambered by a real GUNSMITH.

Rip ...

The use of Picatinnys on a CZ:
The only reason for it is to accommodate the short mounting length of a Leupold 2.5x20mm, or a Nikon SlugHunter/Inline.
Or to put the new-fangled red dot on the CZ.
Sometimes you can avoid the higher height of commercial versions of CZ extension rings,
but the lowest possible custom job seems to be same as a CZ OEM standard ring height.
That is what you get if you use either LOW height of Burris Xtr.Tac. or LOW QRW on a Picatinny. Same same.
Examples follow.

That is a Nikon 1-4x20mm in low Burris rings.
This is totally unnecessary since the mounting length is long enough to use standard CZ OEM rings, and the height will be the same.

This shows why it is a good idea to get rid of some of the excessive length of the rail at the rear.
Or the top of the base could be re-contoured at the rear to give more clearance,
like dished out into a concave surface on the top of the Picatinny.

Here is another unnecessary use of Picatinny for a Leupold 2.5-8x36mm, this time with QRW rings.
Standard CZ OEM rings will do.

Here is the mighty mite in QRW low rings:



This makes sense. Burris XtrTac low rings give same height. This avoids crushing the objective lens.

Here is the sad part:



The SlugHunter/Inline will not work with low Burris rings.
The Objective bell and power-change ring are bottomed out and resting on the upper surface of the Picatinny,
even though the bolt handle does clear the ocular bell when action is worked.

Here is the Inline in "medium" Burris rings.
Too high, but otherwise functional:

I feel another custom Picatinny coming on:



The scooped-out Picatinny tops might allow use of low rings,
and that would be worthwhile.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
Each gets to go once in 4 years?? I get to go hunting a lot more often than that.

With the 40+ calibers velocity backed off a bit for less recoil doesn't reduce effectiveness all that much.

I also have a .45-70 Ruger No.1-S with a lengthened throat so that bullets can be seated out further for increased case capacity. I prefer the handiness of the 'S' models over the heavyweight 'H' models.

My 798 .458 WM has a 23" barrel. Stomps Moose real good at close range with a 500gr RN at 1900 fps MV.

Yeah, I knew you hunted more often than once each year Just kidding around.

That moose stompin' round of a 500 at 1900 is exactly the load for moose I used in my first .458 (Ruger 77). Never got a chance on a moose, however, as we were caught on the tail end of a hurricane.

Loved my #1 in .45-70 LT. Sorry to see it go, but even the load of the 350 Speer at 2500 fps, or the TSX at about the same were generating over 50 ft-lbs recoil. Too much for my 80+ year old eyes. Same ballistics, or more, from the Tropical in .458 is only 36 ft-lbs for the 350 Hor at 2510 and the 350 TSX at 2675 fps is only 43 ft-lbs with the Mag-na-ports. In the Spring, I'll be increasing that one by a couple of grains more of H4198 to make it the same as in my former CZ550. That should put it over 2700 fps. That's my plan, at least, the Lord permitting. Even then the recoil should be no more than 46 ft-lbs for a muzzle energy of 5846 ft-lbs!! That will be my goto hunting load. This is where the longer case of the .458 over the .45-70 begins to shine... when each is seated about .30" into the cases using the lighter bullets. With the heavy-weights, the difference isn't very much at all. More or less, the same idea as the .458 Win vs. the .458 Lott. But I've written all that in my manual on the .458 WM (hopefully to be published again in 2019) with photos, proving (as RIP has done) that the .458 Win can actually exceed the ballistics of the .458 Lott using the long 450gr and 500gr TSX's with those bullets crimped into the bottom (last) cannelure in the Win Mag. That exceeds the Lott COL by at least 0.15", leaving that much more room for powder inside the case. Using A2230 or H335, that should be a "barn burner" of over 5800 ft-lbs -- FROM A .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM!!!

As mentioned, recently I got 2251 fps (corrected to muzzle) from the 500gr Hornady fired from my 24" Ruger #1. That was a load put together for my former CZ550 with a 25" barrel. But COL was SAAMI, not seated "long". Nil signs of excess pressure. I've little doubt that with that bullet seated "out" by 0.25", I can safely attain 2300 fps from the 24" tube of the #1 Tropical.

Who needs the Lott anyway!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/9201027511

It seems that Deep Throat has been controversial for a long time.

boom stick,

Thank you for
We'll consider that a yank on the rope of THE MISSION bell.

Vastly improved is our present-day understanding of the H&H-style, coned-up throat of the .458 WIN.
All past controversy has been resolved.

The lights are on and the .458 Lott has scurried away.

Rip ...

Bob,

Your goddaughter,Bobbarrela,
is intended to shoot your load of 350-grain TSX at +2700 fps, using H4198 powder and WLRM primer, at 3.440" COL, as a general-purpose meat load.

She is also intended for "special" loading with 500-grain TSX at +2300 fps, using AA-2230 powder and GM215M/F-215 primer, at 3.780" COL.
You will be hard-pressed to beat that 500-grainer in the .458 WIN.

In Chimera WinCZechster's 24-7/8" CZ barrel, 500-grain TSX, 3.780" COL:

78.0 grains of AA-2230 >>> 2250 fps MV, 0.19-MOA 3-shot ... BUGHOLER!

83.0 grains of AA-2230 >>> 2342 fps MV, 1.42-MOA 3-shot ... 6,090 ft-lbs KE ... More than SIX KILO-Ft-Lbs!

Bobbarrela is expected to be faster than Chimera was.

May we all find our accuracy nodes at higher velocities. Amen.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Hi pavementends1,

Another new flyer on a sortie for THE MISSION!
Excellent.

quote:

Originally posted by pavementends1:
Well you convinced me. Now that I have a CZ 458 I have some questions for RIP
What are the lowest mounts that fit the stock receiver?

That depends on the size of the ocular bell of the scope. If you use the Leupold 2.5x20mm Ultralight, you can use lowest available mounts,
and still work the bolt, like with the discontinued Warne LOW QD lever rings for CZ shown here:



However, that scope is too short for the action and you end up placing the rings around the objective lens inside the scope tube. That lens cap is not fully seated over the objective end of the tube.
It conceals how little scope tube sticks out in front of the ring.
Cracked glass likely.
What the low Picatinny is about is being able to use LOW Burris Xtreme Tactical and LOW QRW rings
with the short scopes.
But even that comes out in height to be about same as the standard/MEDIUM OEM CZ rings.



You are best off sticking with the OEM CZ rings of standard/"MEDIUM" height which will allow you to use the bigger ocular bells,
and longer mounting length of tube, of the low-power variables, like Nikon and Leupold 1-4x20mm and 1.5-5x20mm.
There is no stronger setup than OEM CZ rings on a CZ 550 Magnum. Main mounting bolts/screws torqued to 65 inch-pounds.

Here is the discontinued Nikon "Big African" with 30mm tube and fat ocular bell in "standard/Medium" 30mm OEM CZ 550 Magnum rings:





Have you done any futher testing with powder coated bullets?

I have not done any, but I am ordering 2 pounds of the stuff, of smaller than 5 micron powder grain size.
I want the barrel of Bobbarella coated inside with it, coming off of the 350-grain TSX bullets coated with it.

What part of Kentucky my father was from Union county.

I am in Western KY, Daviess Co., east of Union Co., with Henderson Co. between us. My brother-in-law lives in Union Co.
Mom and Dad's families both came to KY in 1790, before statehood in 1792.
Pop's folks started up Berry's Lick community, now just a spring in the middle of a soybean field,
in Butler County.
Kind regards
Pavementends

Thanks for support of THE MISSION.
Are you in Mississippi?
I started grade school there, at Franklin Academy in Columbus Mississippi.
Pop was in the USAF at Columbus AFB.
My first grade teacher was Mrs. Estes, and she was a witch!
I spent my first 25-cent weekly allowance on comic books, not candy, like my silly brothers and baby sister.

Rip ...

I am in Oxford Ms. Dad was in the Army Air Corp
In WWII then went Army when they split the Air Force off.
I have both a 2.5x and a 3x Leupold Probably try the 3X with CZ mounts.
Thanks for your reply.

I think we should have a separate forum called ".458 Win Mag" with Rip as the moderator...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
An AV bolt. But not from my 1991 production rifle. Never thought it could be an issue. I'll have a look when I get back home next week.

That appears to be an earlier bolt than mine and looks to include the, rear, third lug - but the gas port appears to be in the same position. If your 'Hunter' dates from 1991, I expect it will also have the gas port on the r/h side. The aberration I tested came out about 1987 but was probably gone from production long before your rifle was made.