458 winchester magnum

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posted

Amen, Fury01.
Let us welcome Little Brother Lott into THE MISSION.
The prodigal Lott has returned to good standing,
now that the Lottite deniers of Big Brother Winchester have stopped their rioting and spewing of lies.
Varmint loads with the .458 Lott are quite interesting.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

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Brother Bob,

Please preach a little review of MTE, or tell me where it is best summarized in your blog, about how it is calculated and calibrated to optimum game weight,
and buy a donkey for that in advance.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Brother Bob,

Please preach a little review of MTE, or tell me where it is best summarized in your blog, about how it is calculated and calibrated to optimum game weight,
and buy a donkey for that in advance.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

The latest that gives a review is March 18, 2019

Rifle Ballistics - A Closer Look - P3 (Archives)

There are too many qualifications to go into here, or there, but my study and research to come up with one that made sense to me goes back to at least 2007 when I had correspondence with John Wootters who published his about a year later in a Petersen publication.

Of course, I've fine-tuned it over the years.

It isn't perfect, and math people will quibble over this or that. But I'm content that it makes a sensible guideline for myself. Depending on how the math is done, it turns out that momentum is the key ingredient as in the TKO formula. I was aware of that. It used to be just TE (Terminal Effect) but has more recently been made more personal (MTE) so as not to give the impression that it has been adopted by a majority of hunters/shooters.

I've also used KE and TKO, or just KO because of a more common acceptance of those as a means of comparison of one load with another. They all have some weaknesses, including mine. But I think as a comparative tool it has merit.

2000 ft-lbs at impact from a .308 Win firing a 180gr isn't equal to 2000ft-lbs at impact from a .458 Win Mag firing a 450gr -- surely we all understand that. What makes the difference? Bullet weight and caliber largely, but also impact velocity. So cross-sectional area of the bullet and its SD are also implied even if cancelled out by some math.

Anyway -- that's a brief summary. The formula is in the blog address given. MTE x 25 = optimum game weight for soft-skinned game ASSUMING a good bullet to the vitals. For smaller DG such as bear and lion it's 12.5 X MTE. For brain shots it's MTE x 100. So, yes, a 6.5 mm firing a 160gr solid into the brain of an elephant at 2200 fps will kill it DRT because we're not "killing" all 12,000 lbs, but simply the brain that keeps vitals working. Same idea for heart shots, not as fast as brain shots, but lethal. My oldest son's late FIL used to shoot moose in the "hump" with his .30-30's factory ammo -- at 25 to 30 yards. The "hump" was the spine. But then he lived next door to the moose!

My formula has in mind any legitimate shot. That might be an angling shot from the rear. I've shot several going-away bears like that. Hope this is helpful.

Then, as I've pointed out many times... there's a certain amount of mystery involved, including the will of an animal to survive, especially when its adrenaline is in charge!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

Posts: 849 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008

Ignored post by .458 Only posted

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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Amen, Fury01.
Let us welcome Little Brother Lott into THE MISSION.
The prodigal Lott has returned to good standing,
now that the Lottite deniers of Big Brother Winchester have stopped their rioting and spewing of lies.
Varmint loads with the .458 Lott are quite interesting.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

I do believe that the Torpedo 528 grain load would be very effective on any varmint, no matter how small or large. It might even be useful for whales.

On second thought, leave whales to the .600 crowd! That is game that needs a 12 gauge FH!

NRA Life Member
testa virtus magna minimum

Posts: 345 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA | Registered: 01 February 2001

Ignored post by The Maz posted

Ready Aim Shoot

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quote:
Originally posted by Fury01:
Ready Aim Shoot,
We allow loving the 458WM and the Lott here as we have been commanded to Love our Neighbor. Welcome Neighbor! Here is the full meaning of that BTW from Leviticus 19. Thought I would share that in context of all the vitriol / Hate, spreading across our world in the name of Peace.

Love Your Neighbor as Yourself
9 “When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. 10 And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God.

11 “You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another. 12 You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord.

13 “You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired worker shall not remain with you all night until the morning. 14 You shall not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall fear your God: I am the Lord.

15 “You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor. 16 You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life[a] of your neighbor: I am the Lord.

17 “You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Thanks for your hospitality.

Posts: 143 | Registered: 21 July 2020

Ignored post by Ready Aim Shoot posted

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posted

quote:
Rifle Ballistics — A Closer Look – P3
Posted by bigborefan on March 18, 2019

<These bullets have distinct profiles, and the construction of each differs to varying degrees from the others. There are reasons for that.

For the purpose of this context, they are all .458″ so that we can visualize what modifications in terminal results may occur when we know their impact velocity, weight and construction.

This blog will be an attempt to understand the reasons for those differences as we focus on:

Terminal Ballistics.
A friend by the name of Dan Schindler (Paragon Sporting Inc.) went to Alaska in 2014 to shoot a black bear. He took his M70 Winchester in .458 Win Mag. It had a custom synthetic stock and a 22″ barrel. He obsessed for some time over what bullet to handload for this pursuit. In the end, he made a wise choice even though I recommended a heavier bullet. Based on first impressions, I didn’t think a CEB with a poly tip and 265 grains was the way to go when there were better — in my view. Now, it’s important to understand something about Danny: He’s a pro in every sense of the word! He’s a trainer of trainers in the shotgun sports, and a trainer of rifle shooters as well. He knows what he can do with a shotgun AND a rifle!

He hunted on Prince of Wales from a boat. (If I ever hunted Alaska, that would be my first choice – from a boat, since I was practically raised in one on the East Coast of Canada in a fishing community.) Of course, he didn’t shoot from a boat, but they (boat captain, outfitter-guide and Dan) travelled up inlets and bays looking for black bears. Also a 4×4 was used on land when appropriate. Nearing the end of the hunt, a good black bear was sighted as they rounded a bend on the 4 x 4. A stalk was made and from about 90 yards Dan pulled the trigger.

Dan sent me a report sometime after returning home. I ran a ballistic simulation profile of expected results. It turns out that he was very right in his expectations and I was very wrong! The 265gr Raptor was more than plenty for the 400 lb black bear that was terminated immediately on bullet impact. In fact, he felt that the bear was dead before it hit the ground. One and done! It was a 6′-10″ bear at 400 lbs. The bullet had taken out lungs and heart.

The following is a profile of the ballistics from Dan’s .458 Win Mag load:

Rifle: a customized M70 Winchester
Cartridge: .458 Winchester Magnum
Bullet: 265gr CEB Raptor with poly tip.
SD = .181
BC = .204
MV = 2650 fps/4132 ft-lbs/ 123 TE
90 = 2297 fps/3104 ft-lbs/ 93 TE – enough for a 1100+ lb bear at that range!

My results are based on the formula given several times in the past, including in the last blog:
Terminal Effect = KEI x SD x CSA

Hence: Dan’s ballistic results @ 3104 x .181 x .165 = 92.7 (x 12.5 for approximate size bear with correct shot placement from a good-appropriate bullet.) This is a guideline ONLY that I’ve used for the past few decades.

Nonetheless, it accords with a guideline that I read in a hunting magazine a number of years ago. The author’s name or even that of the magazine doesn’t come to mind, but the writer had made a trip to Alaska for grizzly, and succeeded. (Likely, his firearm was in .338 Win Mag or .375 H&H.) Anyway, I do recall his recommendation, which he felt was a minimum for that species and location: 3000 ft-lbs at impact using a good premium bullet.

Of course, “we ALL know” there’s more to it than that, but his piece likely mentioned bullet placement as well.

My “formula” is the result of extensive reviews of professional ballistic engineers’ work, plus reported results of some pros in the field, and my own field work.

It is similar to John Wootters’ formula, but was published in my manual on the .45-70 a year or so before his appeared in a Petersen publication. Subsequently, I had correspondence with him about it. The main distinction being that he used nominal caliber whereas I use cross-sectional area of bullet.

Yes, I have read the arguments against using ANY formula, plus the argument that SD of a soft-point bullet changes after impact. However, professional ballisticians, who test bullets daily, still cite and recommend SD as a significant entity at impact. But also, in comparison of one soft-nose bullet with another of the same make, it seems to me that SD still has meaning in end results if both are deformed in a similar manner or degree; whether that be that they retain 70% of un-fired weight, as in a Partition, or 100% as in a TSX. It has been rightly pointed out to me by a math guy, that the end result of my formula biases the momentum that is doubled, rather than leaning on velocity that is squared in kinetic energy, though both are implied in the formula.

And I’ve read the very in-depth piece that has appeared from time to time on the forums that attempts to debunk in an academic manner any and all ideas about kinetic energy or momentum at impact being predictable of outcome.

Standing alone, I agree. But also caliber, bullet weight, construction, profile and impact velocity cannot be denied as the principle components in terminal effect. And, of course, bullet placement. But bullet placement apart from the ballistics involved is meaningless! So bullet placement, while it can’t be taken for granted, is ALWAYS a variable that CANNOT be assumed under ALL conditions! Therefore it has no place in the study of IMPACT ballistics. Yes, it IS an important factor in TERMINAL EFFECT, but that is still an uncertain factor depending on the HUNTER and nothing else!

It is therefore ASSUMED in my formula that the hunter/shooter has placed the bullet correctly, whatever the conditions, and within a range where an appropriate bullet will do its work as predicted — based on impact velocity, caliber, weight (SD) and construction — that also takes account of its profile.

Now, as to the bullets that appear at the top: First row, L to R: 465gr hardcast; 400gr Barnes Buster; 330gr Barnes Banded (now out of production); 350gr TSX and 300gr TSX.

Bottom row, L to R: 400gr Hawk FP; 350gr Hornady FP; 405gr Remington;350gr Speer Hotcor; and 450gr Swift A-Frame.

What could we do with those? What would I do?

Based on some tests and experience with some on game, this is what I’d recommend:

465 hardcast – worked very well on a 6′ bear from a frontal shot. MV was 1900 fps and range was 70 yards. It was a “bang-flop” and the bullet was never found. The bear didn’t hear the sound of the rifle.

400 Buster – tests show it will penetrate, like forever.

330 Barnes Banded – penetration was complete in media, but it lost its stability and went sideways through the last plank.

350 TSX – a go-to bullet for the .458 Win. Shot a medium bear with it and wouldn’t hesitate to use it on moose or elk. Full penetration in test media and retained 100% of weight. A 500gr Speer GS penetrated 6.5″ and retained 310grs of the initial 500 = 62%. In other words the 350 TSX not only “out-penetrated” the 500 Speer, but out-weighed it as well by 40 grs at 350 to 310. The 350 went on both a moose and bear hunt.

300 TSX – used in tests with phenomenal results. Retained 100%. Also used in a bear hunt without a chance on the bear I wanted.

400 Hawk – only used for handload tests, so far. Good results, though I’d ony consider it for deer or possibly bear at no more than 1800 fps. It’s a soft bullet.

350 Hornady FP – loaded now for my Ruger Tropical in .458 at 2510 fps. Very accurate. It may be used for a bear hunt in May or September. In the same test done in November 2017, it only penetrated 4.5″ and lost its core. MV was 2250 fps and impact was at 5 yards into very tough test material — just like the others.

405 Remington – used on bear with great success from my Marlin Classic .45-70 at 2110 fps MV and impact MV about 1835 at 97 yards. Full penetration on the bear from neck-shoulder to offside flank. DRT.

350 Speer – a great .458-cal bullet for medium to heavy game. Used on one bear from my first .458 WM, a M77 Ruger, at 2345 fps MV. Range was 70 yards (est.) and penetration was complete from a going-away shot to liver and exit taking out eight inches of spine and back of head. Damage was awesome.

450 A-Frame – used only in developing loads for the CZ550, so far.

A MORE IN-DEPTH ANALYSIS

Flat- Point Jacketed Bullet:

Of the ten (up top), the five on the bottom row have lead cores with a copper, or copper alloy jacket. All have a flat point of variable diameters.

The 400 Hawk is a custom bullet ordered for me by a dealer. It’s 400 grains with a 1/35″ pure copper jacket and soft lead core. It was specifically made for a .45-70 at an MV of between 1600 and 1900 fps. The weight is ideal for white-tailed deer of any size up to about 150 yards if any expansion is wanted. However, with its broad flat tip it would still work well enough to 200 yards without expansion, where velocity would be about 1320 fps. It has a poor BC of only .214 but a relatively high SD of .272. If it were a tougher bullet, I wouldn’t hesitate to use it on moose to 250 yards. But I would also want a better BC for improved ballistics down range, and that would mean a somewhat smaller meplat (tip). That would also give better penetration.

A 405gr/.458-cal Remington. can make at least 2000 fps from a 22″ Marlin. It has a smaller meplat, a double radius bullet, and a core that’s tougher than the Hawk. The jacket is copper-alloy (tougher but thinner). Good reports have come back from use on bear and moose/elk. I used it on one bear and it worked superbly at about 100 yards — a “bang-flop” with full penetration, leaving the muzzle of my 22″ Marlin at just over 2100 fps.

But still, an ideal bullet for the Marlin might be the 400gr Swift or Woodleigh that I’ve never tried.

Why is that so? For larger game like moose or elk, or even large bears, we want penetration to or through the vitals. A tougher jacket would give better insurance as would a harder core. A .458″ bullet doesn’t need much expansion to get the job done. But a flat point tends to do more damage (depending on its width) and tracks in a straight line. 400 grains will give better penetration than a 300 or 350 with equal shape and construction due to its better momentum caused by a greater weight and SD, assuming they all are loaded to the same PSI.

The 350 Speer in .458″
This bullet was made for the .458 Win Mag and the velocities it can generate. I used it on a bear at 2345 fps (reduced load) at 70 yards and it was devastation for the bear. It has a smaller diameter point than the Hawk, Hornady or Remington, a heavier jacket with a harder core. Also, due to its smaller point, it has a better BC of .232 than the 400 Hawk and 350 Hornady, but less than the 405 Remington with a good BC of .281.

I’d not hesitate to use that bullet on moose or elk at reasonable ranges. But for big bears (black or brown), I’d choose the 350 TSX, 400 GS or even the 500 TSX — more on that upcoming.

The 450gr Swift A-Frame has a very good reputation on African and Alaskan large game, and even some of the dangerous sort. However, in my view, it’s BC could be improved at only .325. The 500 TSX is .412, and is what I’d choose for my Ruger #1 Tropical if ever a hunt in Africa or Alaska was on the agenda.

Look at these potential results:

Rifle: .458 Win Mag or any other .458-cal that could produce equal ballistics
Bullet: 500gr TSX
BC = .412
SD = .341
MV = 2300 fps (from a 24″ barrel)

Ambient average hunting conditions for my area in spring or fall:
Temp. @ 60* F/ 17* C.
Elevation @ 1150 ft
RH @ 56%
Zero @ 200 yards

MV = 2300 fps/5872 ft-lbs/330 TE/ -1.60″
50 = 2205 fps/5395 ft-lbs/303 TE/ +1.66″
100= 2112 fps/4951 ft-lbs/278 TE/ +3.12″
150= 2021 fps/4535 ft-lbs/255 TE/ +2.62″
200= 1933 fps/4148 ft-lbs/233 TE/ +0.00″
250= 1847 fps/3789 ft-lbs/213 TE/ -4.95″
300= 1764 fps/3455 ft-lbs/194 TE/ -12.4″
350= 1684 fps/3148 ft-lbs/177 TE/ -22.7″
400= 1607 fps/2867 ft-lbs/161 TE/ -36.1″ (An excellent mature bull moose load to 400 yards from any angle.)

The objective of these analysis of certain .458-cal bullets is to provide a model for evaluation of ANY bullet for medium to large game and/or dangerous game.

If you’ve carefully observed the comments made regarding various types, configurations and weights of .458″ projectiles, there are obviously various features that contribute to terminal effect.

TOUGHNESS: all else equal, a tougher bullet will hang together better against bone than a softer bullet.

SHAPE (or profile): A flat-point has to push/throw more material/molecules out of the way faster than a sharp-pointed bullet. That is true whether we are speaking of harder bullets or softer ones. Therefore a flat-point (expanding or solid) has to do more work than a more pointed bullet (expanding or non-expanding) within the same penetration distance. In doing more work it will do more damage if penetration is the same or complete. We know that from experience and/or theory.

If the flat point has to do more work, or actually does more work in the same distance and time frame, then it also releases more of its inherent kinetic energy within that distance and time frame.

I’ve experience of all that to confirm the logic and theory.

I’m not necessarily one who wants a bullet to spend all its energy inside the animal, but I do know that full penetration through the vitals is no guarantee of a so-called “bang-flop”. Nor, on the other hand, is the bullet a “failure” if it “dumps” all its energy inside the animal and doesn’t exit, as long as the vitals are involved.

CONSTRUCTION:A great deal of thought and research has gone into this subject since the first round ball was invented. And they were not necessarily lead.

Since guns and gun powder were invented for military purposes, advances in both have brought us to the modern era. Yet, above all else, bullets have earned more study and attention than the apparatus that fires them. And for good reason as it’s the bullet that kills!

Space and time will not permit a rehearsal of all that, but there’s no doubt that, on the whole, today’s projectiles are the best ever — with the qualification that some are mere copies of others that grandfathered them — the Partition for one example.

Today’s idea of a premium bullet is a heavier, or stronger, jacket with a bonded lead core, OR just a monolithic all copper or copper-alloy bullet regardless of other features such as profile, caliber and weight.

Yet Hornady makes a series of dangerous game bullets for several larger calibers with flat tips, bonded hard-lead cores in a thick steel jacket coated with a thin layer of copper for protection of the rifle’s bore! It doesn’t get much better than that for sophistication! And moreover, all they do to make one into a DGX (Dangerous Game Expanding) and the other into a DGS (Dangerous Game Solid) is reverse the bullet — the very thick steel base of the DGX becomes the solid point of the DGS!!

Then, of course, it had to happen — the “demand” for long-range shooting has all bullet makers scrambling to make the longest-sleekest-highest BC bullet possible for our hum-drum or “tricked-out” rifles. Hornady has even come out with a rifle AND ammo to meet that “demand” (really, marketing strategy!). And your guess is as good as mine as to who will be next… NEXT!! Yup, we’re already there! I just can’t wait to get my hands on one of those to shoot a bear at 50 meters!

CALIBER: does make a difference, even if we’re being told that it doesn’t matter anymore because “smaller” can do better than what “bigger” used to do anyway because of better bullets, rifles and fancier cartridges. REALLY???

Personally, I don’t buy it even though there’s a smidgen of truth therein.

Hornady’s “new” rifle and caliber is another .300 magnum with a very long throat, and action to match, to shoot their very long and aerodynamic 212gr at nearly 3000 fps so that hunters can fill their elk tags at a mile away!

If I recall correctly, I think that has already been tried by some fanciers of the .50 BMG! How many elk are you aware of that have been successfully harvested (found and brought home) at such an unforgiving range? But Hornady is making it easier from a rifle that only “kicks” like a .300 magnum!

I’ve written much previously about my thoughts on caliber, so will not bore somebody to tears by rehashing the fact that CALIBER COUNTS in there somewhere when we consider TERMINAL RESULTS!

< A 232gr Oryx vs a 286gr Partition. The Oryx has an SD of .246 and the Partition an SD of .307. Both are 9.3mm bullets. I’d count on the Partition for penetration over the Oryx — and have.)

WEIGHT:The greater the weight of a bullet in relation to caliber, the greater its SD (sectional density). All things equal, BC is improved, momentum is greater as well as penetration. Example: a 200gr Nosler Partition will penetrate better from a 30-06 than a 180gr due to the improvements mentioned. The 200 has a better SD and BC as well as more momentum, even IF KE is the same. The SD of the 200 is .301 vs .271 of the 180, and the BC is .481 vs .474. That’s assuming they each were started with equal PSI. Nosler’s manual #6 gives the 180gr 2872 fps, and the 200gr 2688 fps which gives the 200 a 5% advantage in momentum at the start that will increase down range due to a better BC. A slight edge goes to the 180 in KE at the start, but the 200 will soon catch up and pass it in KE downrange. The difference isn’t much but any advantage of one over the other goes to the 200gr. But the often forgotten bullet weight in .30-06 is the 220gr. If I were hunting the “big” bears of Alaska with a .30-06, this is the one I’d choose because of more weight granting an increase in momentum and a significant increase in SD at .331, meaning better penetration on an angling shot if needed, or perhaps a close-in shot for stopping a bear’s charge. A .30-06 wouldn’t be my first choice, but it will work at closer ranges when a Nosler 200 or 220 is employed with a steady hand. Test it with my formula and you’ll see that Phil Shoemaker is sane in what he has stated about the .30-06 in his experience. It’s unwise to debate with him other than the fact that he is an expert rifleman as well as an expert with a handgun. But also keep in mind that you and I are not his equals in these matters. He still favors his “Ole Ugly” in .458 Win Mag when he has to go into the “pucker brush” for a confrontation with a wounded brownie or grizzly. Personally, I’d start with a .458 Win.

IMPACT VELOCITY:also counts! How much has been debated “forever”. I’ve a target single-shot pellet pistol in .17-cal. It shoots .17-cal pellets at just over 400 fps. I tried to shoot a rabbit with it that was creating havoc in our veggie garden… The rabbit was unharmed with body shots that appeared to only have “bounced off” its fur and hide.

Our son, Phil, has a heavy-barrelled .17 Hornet that shoots 20gr – 25gr varmint bullets at between 3200 fps (25gr) and 3700 fps (20gr).

Would debating the issue of whether to take an air pistol that shoots .177 cal pellets at 400 fps or a .17 cal Hornet that shoots 25gr at 3200 fps for rabbits make any sense?

So, velocity counts in a hunting context.

In a small bore, such as a .223 Remingtom, a velocity difference of 200 fps from a 53gr might make a difference on a woodchuck at 300 yards. But in shooting at a woodchuck at 400 yards, a .22-250 would be a better choice because of higher velocity at impact as well as a flatter trajectory in shooting 50 to 55gr suited to the task. At 100 yards, a .22LR high velocity, like the 40gr CCI Velocitor will terminate a chuck just as dead and quickly as a .22-250… with a HEAD shot!

Those are mere examples to make a point: when we move on to large calibers, a difference of 200 fps amounts to a significant difference from a 500gr. At 2000 fps it’s making 4440 ft-lbs at the muzzle, while at 2200 fps it’s 5373 ft-lbs. That’s a difference of 933 ft-lbs or more than twice the kinetic energy of a 45 Auto 1911 at the muzzle!

In comparing a .308 Winchester to a .300 Win Mag, when handloaded with identical 180gr projectiles, the distinction in muzzle energy is about 1000 ft-lbs at the muzzle and still 700 ft-lbs difference at 300 yards in favor of the .300 Win. Would velocity make a difference in that scenario if the only shot on a 1200 lb moose on the last day would be a quartering-away-shot? Which would you rather have in your hands, the .308 or the .300?

<(Moose shot in N. Ontario where possible ranges varied from a few feet to over 600 yards)

Sure, if we knew before the fact that all shooting would be at woods ranges, then a .308 Winchester would be perfect! Even a .30-30 with a good bullet in the right place. But a .30-30 on a running moose at 80 yards isn’t going to be any picnic! “C’mon back tomorrow!” “But today is the LAST day of the hunt!”

VELOCITY COUNTS!

Til the next…

Shalom

BOB MITCHELL
www.bigbores.ca

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

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Here is the gem from Bob's March 7, 2019 blog:

quote:

I never had the means for a car that made 0 to 60 mph in 4 – 5 seconds, but I did in a motorcycle. Likewise, I want rifles that can “drive” like a sport sedan or a motorcycle –nothing “boring”. No, I agree, it isn’t wise or necessary to push a car or bike at over 100 mph to get “there” — wherever “there” might be, but it’s satisfying to know its available when a couple of middle-aged men pull up beside you at a stop light in a Corvette, and the driver speaks: “Want to give ‘er a try?”, making reference to my 750 Honda Custom. When it went green, I twisted the throttle and he pressed the gas to the next red light. We arrived together. His Corvette about 4.5 sec to 60 mph. My bike about the same. His Corvette? About $75,000. My 750 Honda? About $1600. (Yeah, I know, that was forty years ago!)

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

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posted

OK, Bob may be "certifiable" which means he ain't dead yet, a good thing.
Just like his MITCHELL TERMINAL EFFECT:

MTE = (Bullet Kinetic Energy at Impact) X (Bullet Sectional Density) X (Bullet Cross-Sectional Area)

I think it has much to recommend it, especially since it shows a .458 WIN+P beats a .416 Weatherby Magnum.

For handiness, here are some bullet cross sectional areas, from page 165 of the A-Square manual (calculate by "pie are squared" if you want more):
diameter--inch / area--inch-squared
.284 / .0633
.308 / .0745
.323 / .0819
.338 / .0897
.358 / .1007
.366 / .1052
.375 / .1104
.409 / .1314
.416 / .1359
.423 / .1405
.458 / .1647
.468 / .1720
.475 / .1772
.483 / .1832
.488 / .1870
.505 / .2003
.510 / .2043
.585 / .2688
.620 / .3019

MTE is much more useful than the Bwana Saeed Index: BSI = TKO x SD
The BS Index is useful only at close range for "Stopping Rifles."

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

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In my opinion, the most important factor is having the bullet hit the target in the right place. Bullet placement is the most important variable by far.

The next biggest is to hit the target with a big enough bullet. After that, penetration and "splash" have to be combined right. When in doubt, err on the side of penetration.

NRA Life Member
testa virtus magna minimum

Posts: 345 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA | Registered: 01 February 2001

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RIP, buy a couple of donkeys!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

Posts: 849 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008

Ignored post by .458 Only posted

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by The Maz:
In my opinion, the most important factor is having the bullet hit the target in the right place. Bullet placement is the most important variable by far.

The next biggest is to hit the target with a big enough bullet. After that, penetration and "splash" have to be combined right. When in doubt, err on the side of penetration.

Having spent a few thousand hours studying bullets and ballistics, and a few thousand more in using them, the most important factor by far IS the BULLET. It's chosen FIRST for a given hunt using a particular rifle. Secondly, it's ballistics - velocity. Then becoming a rifleman through practice and experience so that when you pull the trigger the bullet will fly to its intended mark.

BUT! Animals don't always cooperate! They might move, or other variables can take place that has nothing to do with the rifles ballistics. In other words we can't blame the rifle or load.

" having the bullet hit the target in the right place" isn't always a given! That's on the hunter and/or other variables. It has nothing to do with the rifles ballistics and bullets. They are separate entities.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

Posts: 849 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008

Ignored post by .458 Only posted

one of us

posted

Bob,
Then I take it you would not mind another excerpt from your blog as a review for latecomers to THE MISSION.
A concise "Update" to guide the new converts:

quote:
The .458 Winchester Magnum — Update
Posted by bigborefan on October 9, 2019
Posted in: Uncategorized. Tagged: The .458 Winchester Magnum -- Updated.

Since the purchase of the Ruger No.1 in .458 Win Mag “Tropical” in August of 2018, I’ve been testing a variety of bullets and loads. This is a report on that activity and an evaluation of the same.

From mid October, 2018, to sometime in April, 2019, I didn’t visit our range due to winter weather conditions arriving somewhat early in late October to early November and lasting into mid April of this year. I did some shooting in late August and September of 2018, and carried the rifle into a remote hunting area in early October. That was it for 2018. In the meanwhile I purchased some additional bullets and made plans for loads to start the 2019 spring season as soon as possible. I’ve reported some of that activity on the Accurate Reloading Forum, BIG BORES, .458 Winchester Magnum thread.

Generally speaking, that involved becoming more familiar with the Ruger No.1 Tropical in .458 Winchester Magnum in shooting handloads of component bullets in 500gr, 480gr, 450gr, 400gr, 350gr and 300gr. In addition, I did some limited shooting of handloaded 470gr hardcasts and the 330gr Barnes Banded brass solids.

But due to an impending cataract surgery in May of this year, I quit shooting for a few weeks prior to that event; and I didn’t pursue shooting again for three weeks after surgery. I also purchased a Lead Sled that would nullify most felt recoil. Thereafter, I never shot anything like 15 to 20 rounds in a single sitting. I did take my CZ 455 (.22LR) along for more trigger time and practice.

I wanted to see if the 24″ ported barrel of the Ruger #1 in .458 could match the 25″ of the former CZ550 in MV and accuracy. For some loads I had to increase the powder charge by 1-grain; the 350 TSX as an example of that at 2760 fps. For the 500s there didn’t seem to be much loss, if any at all.

In seating all bullets as long as possible, while still having enough in the case for a solid grip on the bullets, which I’d also done for loads used in the CZ550 with its 3.8″ long action, I found that I could attain, and in some cases surpass, 2300 fps from the 500gr Hornady RN and the 500gr Speer GS.

*Here’s a list of the bullets tried this year (2019):

500gr Hornady RN Interloc

500gr Speer Grand Slam

480gr Hornady DGX — at 2353 fps (Hodgdon 4895)

470gr hardcast – at 2075 (RL-15) – not max

450gr TSX — at 2385 fps (Hodgdon 4895)

450gr Swift AF — at 2414 fps (H335)

405gr Remington — at 2085 fps (RL-15) – not max

400 Barnes X — at 2590 fps (H4198)

350gr TSX — at 2760 fps (H4198)

350gr Hornady FP — at 2510 fps (H4198) – not max

330gr Barnes Banded — at 2607 fps (H4198) – not max

300gr TSX — at 2980 fps (H4198) max

300gr TSX — at 2752 fps (H4198) – not max for hunting

*Most of the above was given previously, but for those who have not seen it, I provide it again.

My 1-lb can of AA2230 is comparatively “old”, having purchased it in 2010, so didn’t see much use prior to selling the CZ550 the following year. And I’ve been recently informed that the current manufacturer of that propellant is a different source, and it has been somewhat improved. My can, which is still about 70% unused and nearly a decade old came a bit short in MV compared to some of my old standbys, H4895 in particular, which was a recent purchase.

There were basically two gun powders that worked best in my former Ruger #1 in .45-70 LT for all bullet weights from the 300gr TSX to the 500gr Hornady. Those were H335 for the heavies, 450gr to 500gr, and H4198 for the rest. H335 was ideal for the .45-70 case since being a ball powder it allowed more into the case without undo compression. And having approximately the same burn rate as H4895, which is one of the best in the .458, it acted like I was using a full charge of H4895 in the .45-70 case, and still seat the 500s adequately, while still using a COL of up to 3.21″ for the long Barnes monos. That was 75 grains of H335 behind the 500 Hornady and 76 grains under the 450 Swift. That would not have been possible in using H4895, so I went with the ball powder that proved itself worthy of complete confidence through consistent and stable results. It was therefore natural that I should use those same two powders in my former CZ550 in .458, and for the same applications. In addition to those two, I also gave H4895 a try for the heavyweights in the .458 Win Mag since there was more available room in those cases. And in also seating the bullets long, that made my CZ equal to a .458 Lott. But I also discovered that I could exceed the .458 Lott COL of 3.600″ using the long Barnes bullets. That meant ballistics for the .458 Winchester in the CZ550 could exceed those of the Lott.

Indeed, as mentioned above, I’ve found it quite possible to duplicate all that in my current Ruger Single-shot, as previously explained in recent blogs.

The current load that I’ve settled on for walk-about-hunting of both bear and wolf is the 300gr TSX at 2752 fps/5044 ft-lbs. My intent, God willing, is to spend a few days this fall in that unhurried form of outdoor recreation. I will walk a bit, then sit a bit for some calling. A number of years ago I was calling moose and ended up calling in a big bear! You never exactly know what to expect from such adventures, but you must be alert to all possibilities. I have a variety of mouth calls, and have recently added a hand-held electronic caller with recorded sounds of deer, fawns, coyote and rabbits. It’s all fun that keeps one on edge! At times I’ll have a partner, and at other times I’ll be solo — at least that’s the plan.

The Ruger is heavy (needs to be) but comfortable to carry. It balances very well, and is very short overall for such a powerful rifle at 40-inches. On the stock I’ll put a stock cartridge holder, and limit the number of cartridges in the holder to five, which will add about 1/2 lb but not enough to upset the rifle’s balance. Of course, I’ll have a few extra in a jacket pocket as well.

The 300gr TSX load makes the rifle quite versatile for reaching out a bit in the case of a wolf on the far side of a small lake or marsh, plus in close quarters it will lack nothing for a charging bear.

The MV ballistics are similar to a .375 Weatherby firing a 300gr. But a .458″, 300gr is relatively short so will slow down quicker than a .375. Still, it’s a load that as sighted at +1.31″ at 100 will drop to about -2.00″ at 200 yards. That’s plenty good enough for that type of hunt as I don’t expect to be shooting that far in any case.

<(The 300 TSX as tested in tough media at 2650 fps from 5 yards employing my former Ruger #1 in .45-70 LT. Left click on pics for a better view.)

Here is the load and ballistics as shot yesterday at our range (Oct. 8/19):

Ambient conditions: Sunny but frosty.

Rifle: Ruger #1 Tropical in .458 Win Mag with a 24″ Mag-Na-Ported barrel.

Remington brass (1x previously fired in my former CZ550)

WLRM primers

75 grains H4198 (up 2 grains from previous results at 2687 fps)

MV = 2734, 2728, 2736 instrumental. Corrected average at muzzle = 2752 fps/5044 ft-lbs.

3 shots into sub-moa. Group was +2.25″ high, and 3/4 inch right. Adjustments were made to center that group at +1.31″ high dead over center.

Recoil will be about 36 ft-lbs with the Mag-Na-Ports, which, by the way, doesn’t seem to be more loud than a typical .30-06 — for some yet unknown reason.

The point of all this is to demonstrate that a .458 Winchester Magnum doesn’t need be reserved for shooting an elephant in your petunias!

Go ahead, use it on some hogs, deer, and an elk now and then. Many are doing just that, so why not try something different by way of a Big Bore, rather than going as small as current culture seems to suggest. There are far more .458 Win Mags out there than most “pundits” seem to think — or are aware of. And they are not going into oblivion any time soon!

Hunting and shooting isn’t just about killing something — as I believe most of us are aware of by now. It’s the composite of many things that may be perhaps summed up in a word — “adventure”. But if we have to kill something, let it be with an instrument that causes the least trauma possible. If it’s a .243, learn to shoot it precisely. If it’s a .458, learn also to shoot that one precisely. But I assure you there IS a pronounced difference in effect on the shooter as well as the animal!

Yesterday, at the range, I met a man whom I’d never previously encountered. It was a beautiful, frosty morning. I was the first to arrive at 8 am in order to get “set up”, including target, Chrony and rifle rests, as well as other accessories. I don’t like to be in the way of others who arrive later. The second was a fellow I’ve known for several years, much younger than I. Lastly was the unknown person — as least to myself, and he was older than the younger man, but not as old as myself — I’d say in his late sixties. Shooting was to start at 9:30 am, and while the second man was at the 300 yard berm putting up some targets, this “unknown man” and I chatted about moose hunting. It turned out that he’d shot a bull moose in the same northern jurisdiction as myself. He described in great detail the rain and wind that lasted for about 10 days before there was a break in the weather. The following day was good, and he shot a bull moose at around 150 yards. But he shot it a total of six times. After three shots it went down. But it didn’t stay down. It got up and started to move away from him and he shot it three more times and it went down to stay.

The rifle and load? A .30-06 shooting 180 factory fodder. None of the loads fully penetrated the moose through the lungs from broad-side hits! I told him I shot mine using 250gr Nosler Partitions from a .340 Weatherby. The first shot was broadside at 165 yards through the lungs from an offhand position, and not only did the bullet land within an inch or so of where I aimed, but it was a pass-through, with blood and lung tissue splattering over the bushes on the far side for twenty feet! On the second shot the moose went down on the spot! And those were lung shots — not CNS hits! I waited for my son to arrive from his blind at 350 yards from me. He wanted to see the bull that was in a bit of a hollow and out of sight. He got too close and the bull staggered to its feet, but wasn’t going anywhere. I gave it another in the seat of its pants and it went down to stay. In total, it moved not more than half its length from where I fired the first shot.

The point: larger bores, bigger bullets and speed DOES make a difference! And a significant one at that — most of the time assuming good bullets and hits where they should be!

The .458 Winchester Magnum can do all that and more — if we can manage its potential. That’s a challenge to those who want to climb this “mountain”. ...

... Til the next,

Shalom

BOB MITCHELL
www.bigbores.ca

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

one of us

posted

I'll vouch for Bob's loads, I can do them too.
H4198 and H4895 will pretty much cover the spectrum.
Post-2016 AA-2230 and AA-2460 are also excellent, and replace H335 for me.
I am just now finding out how good AA-2495 is for "reduced" cast bullet loads with pleasingly filled cases and great burn completion at low pressure:

.461"/ 407-grain hardcast GC-PCP (3.260" COL)
at 2170 fps in a 25" barrel
with 72 grains of AA-2495,
pressure probably closer to 32,000 PSI than to 40,000 psi,
and accurate.

Details of loads can be found both at Bob's blog and by searching this thread, THE MISSION.

And remember, never use a Lead Sled.

Onward to page 210, only 252 pages to go.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

One of Us

posted

Rip, If I had another life to do this in, I would be trying AA 2495 and Cast in several rifles. I will be eager to see your results!

"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789

Posts: 2135 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002

Ignored post by Fury01 posted

Anarchist

new member
Picture of Anarchist

posted

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Bob,
Then I take it you would not mind another excerpt from your blog as a review for latecomers to THE MISSION.
A concise "Update" to guide the new converts:

quote:
The .458 Winchester Magnum — Update
Posted by bigborefan on October 9, 2019
Posted in: Uncategorized. Tagged: The .458 Winchester Magnum -- Updated.

Since the purchase of the Ruger No.1 in .458 Win Mag “Tropical” in August of 2018, I’ve been testing a variety of bullets and loads. This is a report on that activity and an evaluation of the same.

From mid October, 2018, to sometime in April, 2019, I didn’t visit our range due to winter weather conditions arriving somewhat early in late October to early November and lasting into mid April of this year. I did some shooting in late August and September of 2018, and carried the rifle into a remote hunting area in early October. That was it for 2018. In the meanwhile I purchased some additional bullets and made plans for loads to start the 2019 spring season as soon as possible. I’ve reported some of that activity on the Accurate Reloading Forum, BIG BORES, .458 Winchester Magnum thread.

Generally speaking, that involved becoming more familiar with the Ruger No.1 Tropical in .458 Winchester Magnum in shooting handloads of component bullets in 500gr, 480gr, 450gr, 400gr, 350gr and 300gr. In addition, I did some limited shooting of handloaded 470gr hardcasts and the 330gr Barnes Banded brass solids.

But due to an impending cataract surgery in May of this year, I quit shooting for a few weeks prior to that event; and I didn’t pursue shooting again for three weeks after surgery. I also purchased a Lead Sled that would nullify most felt recoil. Thereafter, I never shot anything like 15 to 20 rounds in a single sitting. I did take my CZ 455 (.22LR) along for more trigger time and practice.

I wanted to see if the 24″ ported barrel of the Ruger #1 in .458 could match the 25″ of the former CZ550 in MV and accuracy. For some loads I had to increase the powder charge by 1-grain; the 350 TSX as an example of that at 2760 fps. For the 500s there didn’t seem to be much loss, if any at all.

In seating all bullets as long as possible, while still having enough in the case for a solid grip on the bullets, which I’d also done for loads used in the CZ550 with its 3.8″ long action, I found that I could attain, and in some cases surpass, 2300 fps from the 500gr Hornady RN and the 500gr Speer GS.

*Here’s a list of the bullets tried this year (2019):

500gr Hornady RN Interloc

500gr Speer Grand Slam

480gr Hornady DGX — at 2353 fps (Hodgdon 4895)

470gr hardcast – at 2075 (RL-15) – not max

450gr TSX — at 2385 fps (Hodgdon 4895)

450gr Swift AF — at 2414 fps (H335)

405gr Remington — at 2085 fps (RL-15) – not max

400 Barnes X — at 2590 fps (H4198)

350gr TSX — at 2760 fps (H4198)

350gr Hornady FP — at 2510 fps (H4198) – not max

330gr Barnes Banded — at 2607 fps (H4198) – not max

300gr TSX — at 2980 fps (H4198) max

300gr TSX — at 2752 fps (H4198) – not max for hunting

*Most of the above was given previously, but for those who have not seen it, I provide it again.

My 1-lb can of AA2230 is comparatively “old”, having purchased it in 2010, so didn’t see much use prior to selling the CZ550 the following year. And I’ve been recently informed that the current manufacturer of that propellant is a different source, and it has been somewhat improved. My can, which is still about 70% unused and nearly a decade old came a bit short in MV compared to some of my old standbys, H4895 in particular, which was a recent purchase.

There were basically two gun powders that worked best in my former Ruger #1 in .45-70 LT for all bullet weights from the 300gr TSX to the 500gr Hornady. Those were H335 for the heavies, 450gr to 500gr, and H4198 for the rest. H335 was ideal for the .45-70 case since being a ball powder it allowed more into the case without undo compression. And having approximately the same burn rate as H4895, which is one of the best in the .458, it acted like I was using a full charge of H4895 in the .45-70 case, and still seat the 500s adequately, while still using a COL of up to 3.21″ for the long Barnes monos. That was 75 grains of H335 behind the 500 Hornady and 76 grains under the 450 Swift. That would not have been possible in using H4895, so I went with the ball powder that proved itself worthy of complete confidence through consistent and stable results. It was therefore natural that I should use those same two powders in my former CZ550 in .458, and for the same applications. In addition to those two, I also gave H4895 a try for the heavyweights in the .458 Win Mag since there was more available room in those cases. And in also seating the bullets long, that made my CZ equal to a .458 Lott. But I also discovered that I could exceed the .458 Lott COL of 3.600″ using the long Barnes bullets. That meant ballistics for the .458 Winchester in the CZ550 could exceed those of the Lott.

Indeed, as mentioned above, I’ve found it quite possible to duplicate all that in my current Ruger Single-shot, as previously explained in recent blogs.

The current load that I’ve settled on for walk-about-hunting of both bear and wolf is the 300gr TSX at 2752 fps/5044 ft-lbs. My intent, God willing, is to spend a few days this fall in that unhurried form of outdoor recreation. I will walk a bit, then sit a bit for some calling. A number of years ago I was calling moose and ended up calling in a big bear! You never exactly know what to expect from such adventures, but you must be alert to all possibilities. I have a variety of mouth calls, and have recently added a hand-held electronic caller with recorded sounds of deer, fawns, coyote and rabbits. It’s all fun that keeps one on edge! At times I’ll have a partner, and at other times I’ll be solo — at least that’s the plan.

The Ruger is heavy (needs to be) but comfortable to carry. It balances very well, and is very short overall for such a powerful rifle at 40-inches. On the stock I’ll put a stock cartridge holder, and limit the number of cartridges in the holder to five, which will add about 1/2 lb but not enough to upset the rifle’s balance. Of course, I’ll have a few extra in a jacket pocket as well.

The 300gr TSX load makes the rifle quite versatile for reaching out a bit in the case of a wolf on the far side of a small lake or marsh, plus in close quarters it will lack nothing for a charging bear.

The MV ballistics are similar to a .375 Weatherby firing a 300gr. But a .458″, 300gr is relatively short so will slow down quicker than a .375. Still, it’s a load that as sighted at +1.31″ at 100 will drop to about -2.00″ at 200 yards. That’s plenty good enough for that type of hunt as I don’t expect to be shooting that far in any case.

<(The 300 TSX as tested in tough media at 2650 fps from 5 yards employing my former Ruger #1 in .45-70 LT. Left click on pics for a better view.)

Here is the load and ballistics as shot yesterday at our range (Oct. 8/19):

Ambient conditions: Sunny but frosty.

Rifle: Ruger #1 Tropical in .458 Win Mag with a 24″ Mag-Na-Ported barrel.

Remington brass (1x previously fired in my former CZ550)

WLRM primers

75 grains H4198 (up 2 grains from previous results at 2687 fps)

MV = 2734, 2728, 2736 instrumental. Corrected average at muzzle = 2752 fps/5044 ft-lbs.

3 shots into sub-moa. Group was +2.25″ high, and 3/4 inch right. Adjustments were made to center that group at +1.31″ high dead over center.

Recoil will be about 36 ft-lbs with the Mag-Na-Ports, which, by the way, doesn’t seem to be more loud than a typical .30-06 — for some yet unknown reason.

The point of all this is to demonstrate that a .458 Winchester Magnum doesn’t need be reserved for shooting an elephant in your petunias!

Go ahead, use it on some hogs, deer, and an elk now and then. Many are doing just that, so why not try something different by way of a Big Bore, rather than going as small as current culture seems to suggest. There are far more .458 Win Mags out there than most “pundits” seem to think — or are aware of. And they are not going into oblivion any time soon!

Hunting and shooting isn’t just about killing something — as I believe most of us are aware of by now. It’s the composite of many things that may be perhaps summed up in a word — “adventure”. But if we have to kill something, let it be with an instrument that causes the least trauma possible. If it’s a .243, learn to shoot it precisely. If it’s a .458, learn also to shoot that one precisely. But I assure you there IS a pronounced difference in effect on the shooter as well as the animal!

Yesterday, at the range, I met a man whom I’d never previously encountered. It was a beautiful, frosty morning. I was the first to arrive at 8 am in order to get “set up”, including target, Chrony and rifle rests, as well as other accessories. I don’t like to be in the way of others who arrive later. The second was a fellow I’ve known for several years, much younger than I. Lastly was the unknown person — as least to myself, and he was older than the younger man, but not as old as myself — I’d say in his late sixties. Shooting was to start at 9:30 am, and while the second man was at the 300 yard berm putting up some targets, this “unknown man” and I chatted about moose hunting. It turned out that he’d shot a bull moose in the same northern jurisdiction as myself. He described in great detail the rain and wind that lasted for about 10 days before there was a break in the weather. The following day was good, and he shot a bull moose at around 150 yards. But he shot it a total of six times. After three shots it went down. But it didn’t stay down. It got up and started to move away from him and he shot it three more times and it went down to stay.

The rifle and load? A .30-06 shooting 180 factory fodder. None of the loads fully penetrated the moose through the lungs from broad-side hits! I told him I shot mine using 250gr Nosler Partitions from a .340 Weatherby. The first shot was broadside at 165 yards through the lungs from an offhand position, and not only did the bullet land within an inch or so of where I aimed, but it was a pass-through, with blood and lung tissue splattering over the bushes on the far side for twenty feet! On the second shot the moose went down on the spot! And those were lung shots — not CNS hits! I waited for my son to arrive from his blind at 350 yards from me. He wanted to see the bull that was in a bit of a hollow and out of sight. He got too close and the bull staggered to its feet, but wasn’t going anywhere. I gave it another in the seat of its pants and it went down to stay. In total, it moved not more than half its length from where I fired the first shot.

The point: larger bores, bigger bullets and speed DOES make a difference! And a significant one at that — most of the time assuming good bullets and hits where they should be!

The .458 Winchester Magnum can do all that and more — if we can manage its potential. That’s a challenge to those who want to climb this “mountain”. ...

... Til the next,

Shalom

BOB MITCHELL
www.bigbores.ca

Hello, I have a CZ wondering what powders & charge are you getting 2300fps from a 500gr Hornady?

What reloading dies are best for use with this case?

Seating not in the crimping groove those bullets in the mag don't slide out due to recoil?

Ron

Posts: 2 | Location: Pa / NY | Registered: 31 July 2020

Ignored post by Anarchist posted

one of us

posted

"Anarchist" first post, and still only post, signing his name as Ron.
Sort of smells of unrepentant Lottite.

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

one of us

posted

Great link about cast bullet alloys:

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

It dares to discuss arsenic content and its importance for hardening of water-drop quenched bullets
and oven bake heat-treatment.
Old-style, clip-on wheel weights have a trace of arsenic.
Magnum shot has more.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
"Anarchist" first post, and still only post, signing his name as Ron.
Sort of smells of unrepentant Lottite.

Rip,
He could be just a Samaritan fallen by the way so lets just encourage him to go search out the data he needs in the previous 209 pages for it is there. Thus if he searches, he will find and the Truth can set him free.

Shabbat Shalom
Fury01

Posts: 2135 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002

Ignored post by Fury01 posted

hydehunter

One of Us

posted

I agree, I have read all 210 pages and continue to still look up info for my use in my 458 let him read what the work of others before him, good reading anyways, by the way just spoke to a guy at Accurate powders about AA2230 and the new formulation the RIP told me about, his comment was a couple years ago the did make a change to the powder but it was only to make it less temperature sensitive and that was all,he was impressed at the velocity that we are getting with the 450 Barnes TSX. note: we need a lot of people world wide to call Barnes and tell them we need a 400 grain TSX and mention that since they made a bunch for Buffalo Bore Bullets that there is no reason they can't put it in their product line for the rest of the world even if they were to phase out the 400sp so give them a yell and a lot. Jim

Posts: 204 | Location: Stickney,So Dakota | Registered: 12 January 2009

Ignored post by hydehunter posted

one of us

posted

hydehunter and Fury01 do good work for THE MISSION.
Buy a donkey to both.
Hoping for sunshine Sunday.
Double-bullet regulation of the .458 WIN(-)P with cast bullets, light and heavy, is the goal.
All else is just too easy for the .458 Winchester Magnum.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

one of us

posted

Weather permitting, I might be able to capture some traces tomorrow, though I have to work it in with a sequence test of .50 BMG rounds with the 775-grain Lehighs I got in last week with some 20N29 powder.

And hydehunter - I'd be a buyer of some 400-grain Barnes TSX projectiles, and not just a box of 20!

NRA Life Member
testa virtus magna minimum

Posts: 345 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA | Registered: 01 February 2001

Ignored post by The Maz posted

hydehunter

One of Us

posted

what it will take is for us to talk to Barnes a lot to get them to do this.I do not have any idea how many Buffalo Bore bought but we need to be calling every week like I do and asking for them you know the squeaky wheel gets the grease, please everyone call them even Lotty shooters

Posts: 204 | Location: Stickney,So Dakota | Registered: 12 January 2009

Ignored post by hydehunter posted

jerry mcdonald

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
"Anarchist" first post, and still only post, signing his name as Ron.
Sort of smells of unrepentant Lottite.

RIP, he may be a student in the making and the same guy I told on another forum to come over here and ask you some questions, he has a long magnum model 70 action and was asking about re-barreling to a lott, I told him to go standard 458 on that long mag action and seat the bullets out long, he could then outrun a lott, and have cheaper, more available brass to boot.

Posts: 789 | Registered: 18 February 2009

Ignored post by jerry mcdonald posted

one of us

posted

Weather didn't cooperate, so I spent a little time assembling the rounds for my next test. All are with a Hornady 480-grain DGS, loaded to 3.20 inch COAL, and crimped in around the center of the cannelure. Cases are all "WW-Super", primers are my old Fed 215's that I used in all other pressure traces to date.

The flat nose profile of the DGS makes for a slightly shorter COAL than round noses. Thus the 3.2 inch length.

Loads to be tested are 73 grains of:

H-335
Ramshot TAC
AA-2230
Win 748

I also made one round with the 480 DGS and 73 grains of IMR-4895. I ran out of WW cases, and don't want to mix cases and introduce another variable.

I chose a load that is max or under (except for AA-2230, where I went 1 grain above) but above start, with all powders as per manuals with 500 grain RN bullets. The charges all fill the case pretty well, with the 4895 being pretty seriously compressed.

Some of these loads may be somewhat +P, some at SAAMI, and some under. I want to test out burn rates for future development, as well as provide some useful info for folks who can't load to long COAL. At the very least, they will be useful for powder selection with the 480 DGS in SAAMI-spec loads.

I will report back to THE MISSION the results of my testing when weather permits lighting these off.

NRA Life Member
testa virtus magna minimum

Posts: 345 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA | Registered: 01 February 2001

Ignored post by The Maz posted

Anarchist

new member
Picture of Anarchist

posted

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
"Anarchist" first post, and still only post, signing his name as Ron.
Sort of smells of unrepentant Lottite.

Troll LOL still living on your 750 Honda Slug still laughing at that, was told to post here from LRH forum guess it was a waste of my time..
Yes my first post - now we talk motorcycles that run the 1/4 at 160mph and our great govt limits them to 186mph your 0-60 is a lifetime ago measurement by todays standards.
Some of us have families and actually have employment, you may consider me a troll, I consider myself part of society that's alive and can not or will not devote every waking second to posting on forums, like you.

Sorry if my views vary slightly from yours I can live with it.
The info here will get me by with regards to the info I seek. Ron https://shootersreference.com/...8-winchester-magnum/

Posts: 2 | Location: Pa / NY | Registered: 31 July 2020

Ignored post by Anarchist posted

one of us

posted

I just get impatient with anyone who calls himself an anarchist, or thinks it is amusing to do so.
Considering what is going on in the country right now, not a good handle.
I won't be spoon feeding any "Anarchist" unless he is reincarnated with a different handle.
BTW, I think anyone who rides a murdercycle is a few fries short of a happy meal.
Bob survived and matured well.
So did my Father-In-Law who was a Methodist Missionary in Brazil, and otherwise a Mr. Rogers type.
Imagine Mr. Rogers on a murdercycle.

Hydehunter: Thanks for the reminder. I will keep calling about the Barnes 400-gr TSX too.

The Maz: More power to you.

Jerry: Anarchist did not have your friend's M70, and he has demonstrated he can do a search and even post links to what he found.
I'll be trying to get the .458 WIN(-)P 543-grain FNGC (SAECO #20) flying at sunup.
Hoping for double-bullet regulation with smokeless in Alderella Shilen-Ruger the Knik Knocker.
I do now have the 46-576N Accurate Molds mould to make a 570-grain FNGC if heavier slow bullet is needed.
Dual-cavity brass mould, it has the 44-530P on the other side, for use with BP and paper patch,
in Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger .45-2.6" aka .45-100 Sharps Winchester Throated.

Life is good.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

jerry mcdonald

One of Us

posted

RIP, good, maybe the guy I referred over is still pouring through 200+ pages of data and 'entertainment'

Posts: 789 | Registered: 18 February 2009

Ignored post by jerry mcdonald posted

One of Us

posted

Rip
I have a similar visceral reaction to our new visitors handle. I also have spent a lot of time on top of two wheels and a motor though I haven’t had one for 36 years or so. I rode trials bike all over the San Juan mountains in Colorado in younger days. Legal back then. Did the same horseback too, that’s still legal most places. Some no it is not. Hard to believe but true.
I do want to reach out to our visiting Samaritan and not walk by on the other side of the road. Thanks for understanding.
Sir
There are many of us who go before you in age that abhor the over reach of governments. There are some here I would say they think that our government borders on out of control. However, anarchies are not the solution. Why you ask? Because the cure for hate is not more hate. The cure for hate is love. Love brings repentance. Repentance brings reason.
I would warn and say inside chaos wolves lie in wait. The current situation is full of wolves seeking to destroy kill and then reign over us.
This thread is about reason and thought producing truth just as much as it is the magnificent 458 Winchester Magnum. The 458wm was the foil we have used to tear away myth and produce fact. Facts including a 500 grain at 2300 FPS loaded long over aa2300.
We restfully request your understanding.

Posts: 2135 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002

Ignored post by Fury01 posted

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Anarchist:
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
"Anarchist" first post, and still only post, signing his name as Ron.
Sort of smells of unrepentant Lottite.

Troll LOL still living on your 750 Honda Slug still laughing at that, was told to post here from LRH forum guess it was a waste of my time..
Yes my first post - now we talk motorcycles that run the 1/4 at 160mph and our great govt limits them to 186mph your 0-60 is a lifetime ago measurement by todays standards.
Some of us have families and actually have employment, you may consider me a troll, I consider myself part of society that's alive and can not or will not devote every waking second to posting on forums, like you.

Sorry if my views vary slightly from yours I can live with it.
The info here will get me by with regards to the info I seek. Ron https://shootersreference.com/...8-winchester-magnum/

Anarchist;

RIP was copying my blog, and they were not his words but mine. And the motorcycle speed was NOT 160 mph but 60 mph in 4.5 sec.

And I'd intended to recommend what has been suggested in answer to your questions: READ THE THREAD as others have done. And that 750 Honda Custom of 1981 was NO SLUG in keeping up with the Corvette in 1982!

Neither is the .458 Win Mag in PASSING the Lott shooting 500s at equal PSI and equal length barrels. Adequate proof in this thread for ANYONE who wants to know the TRUTH!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

Posts: 849 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008

Ignored post by .458 Only posted

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posted

Fury01

Thank you for your answer to Anarcrist. Love is the answer, but as you know that's God's love not human.

Jesus said the whole Law is summed up in "agape"-God's love. And that's not possible for sinful humans (all of us) apart from regeneration by God's Spirit who alone is capable of producing forgiveness and love for our "enemies".

Even the strongest willed person can't do that alone apart from God's grace. The Law of Moses failed, the grace of God doesn't.

You know that!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

Posts: 849 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008

Ignored post by .458 Only posted

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posted

Indeed I do Bob.
Thanks for testifying on the matter.

Posts: 2135 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002

Ignored post by Fury01 posted

one of us

posted

I first heard of agape in one of my Father-In-Law's sermons one Sunday. Great man. He had quit the motoring with two wheels by then.

Speaking of great Sundays,
I just had one, 73*F, sunny, and just a bit too windy.
Oh yeah, the kid next to me at the public range had a short-barreled AR-15 and my chrono gave an error reading every time he shot.
His brass was hitting me in the face too.
After I started catching his brass and throwing it back at him, he got up and moved to another position,
plenty of room there.
No sense in spewing hot brass into my face.

I am closing in on double bullet regulation.
Blackhorn 209 seems most promising.
Velocity was about as expected.
I will try an over-powder card (like punched from milk carton) in addition to the tiny bit of foam filler.
I am not worried about one-hole accuracy for the 543-grainer as it will be used inside of 100 yards.

That is same rifle with same sight setting as fired 50-yard target below, and the rifle still has not been cleaned.
Smokeless with hardcast/PCP/GC bullets leaves no appreciable fouling after 50 rounds:

AA-2495 must need a higher pressure than 13,000 psi to be any good. Velocity about as expected:

AA-5744 was a disappointment in being so low in velocity with filler, I do not understand it:

Hornady brass and F-215 primer for all loads today.
There is no rhyme or reason to some of this, or else there are unknowns ...

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

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posted

Overall, Blackhorn 209 seems best to me.
About 90% net case fill/loading ratio,
nice pressure around 28,000 psi with 543-grainer,
Not bad extreme spread on velocity.
And 3 out of 5 of the bullets were OK on elevation.
Might do better on a calm day without AR-15 showers.

Cogitating on this:
Both bullets have a BC of about 0.300.
The SD of the blunt 543-grainer is near .370
and the SD of the pointier 407-grainer is near .270,
so even the blunt 543-grainer penetrated the air pretty well.

Correcting to MV:
1382 fps for 543-grainer.
2170 fps for 407-grainer.

Trajectories:
543-grainer ... +1.7"@50yds ... 0.0"@100yds ... -3.0"@125yds
407-grainer ... +1.7"@50yds ... +3.0"@100yds ... +2.9"@125yds ... +2.1"@150yds ... 0.0"@182yds ... -1.6"@200yds ... -4.6"@225yds

That'll work.
And so little recoil.

To get a heavy and a light hitting same elevation at 100 yards might require a heavier heavy and a lighter and/or slower varmint bullet.

570-grain cast bullet coming up:

But maybe a Woodleigh 550-grainer at low MV and a Hornady 350-grainer at higher MV would double-bullet regulate,
for the jacketed-bullet crowd ?

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

one of us

posted

The 543-grainer goes a lot faster if you want it to, in the mighty .458 WIN+P:

For the 543-grainer assumed to have BC of 0.300:
If MV is 1382 fps, it will lose 9 fps in first 5 yards >>> 1373 fps instrumental.
If MV is 2279 fps, it will lose 14 fps in first 5 yards >>> 2265 fps.

So, on the graph above, corrected to MV the 543-grainer at 2279 fps has KE at muzzle = 6262 ft-lbs.
MTE = 381

The 543-grainer at 1382 fps MV has KE = 2303 ft-lbs.
MTE = 140

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

One of Us

posted

RIP;

The 543-gr at 1382 fps = 140 MTE is the same as my former .340 WBY shooting a 250 at 3000 fps or my 9.3 x 62 firing the 286-gr at 2622 fps.

Something to think about, and I have.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

Posts: 849 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008

Ignored post by .458 Only posted

Mike McGuire

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:
RIP;

The 543-gr at 1382 fps = 140 MTE is the same as my former .340 WBY shooting a 250 at 3000 fps or my 9.3 x 62 firing the 286-gr at 2622 fps.

Something to think about, and I have.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

A science thought on momentum/animals and conservation of momentum and assuming bullet stays in animal. When the bullet stops its momentum is zero but the momentum of flesh/bones (and hide) wil equal the momentum of the bullet. So a bullet with bigger momentum could either mean a bigger weight of flesh/bone moving at the same velocity as caused by bullet of lower momentum or could result in the same weight of flesh/bone moving but moving at higher speed than that caused by the bullet of lower momentum.

Posts: 7046 | Location: Sydney Australia | Registered: 14 September 2015

Ignored post by Mike McGuire posted

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posted

MTE refined for a cast bullet emerging from muzzle at 0.459" groove diameter, and using RCBS external ballistics tool:
CSA = 0.1655 Sq.In. for .459-cal bullets
SD = 0.276 for 407-grainer
SD = 0.368 for 543-grainer
BC = 0.300 for both, in this special case

407-grain Bullet:
at 0 yards/ 2170 fps MTE = 194 (rounded to nearest unit), momentum = 126 lbs-fps
50 yards/ 2041 fps MTE = 172
100 yards/ 1917 fps MTE = 152

543-grain Bullet:
at 0 yards/ 1382 fps MTE = 141, momentum = 107 lbs-fps
50 yards/ 1296 fps MTE = 124
100 yards/ 1221 fps MTE = 109.6

MTE gives the 407-gr@2170 fps a 38% advantage over the 543-gr@1382 fps.
Pure momentum gives the 407-gr@2170 fps only 18% advantage over the 543-gr@1382 fps.

MTE is doing more than just comparing momentums.
I reckon it is not overly weighted toward momentum.
Also it is not overly weighted toward velocity/KE,
and involves adjustment for downrange velocity loss.
Hard to implrove on MTE, the Goldilocks choice of Lethality Indices.
At whatever range, MTE = 140 is adequate for moose, according to creator Bob.
That would be for general hunting use with expanding bullets.
I'll buy that.

For the simpler situation of close range elephant with solid bullets, I consider the BS Index to be better than TKO.
KISS principle applies to either of those.
Or would MTE be better with a bracket for elephant? Muzzle-MTE only, of course.

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

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posted

HA !
THE MISSION had shrunk from page 210 to 209 before I posted above,
now it is down to 208 pages.
We have had minor shrinkage in the past as the deniers deleted replies to cover up the evidence of their cognitive impairment.
This is bigger.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted

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posted

If not double-bullet regulating,
the .458 WIN cast bullet shooter can find loads from subsonic to past Mach 2 with about any cast bullet that is PC-painted, gas checked, and sized to .461", with hard alloy,
just treat those like the usual jacketed bullet of same weight,
whether for .458"-grooved or .459"-grooved barrels.
Terminal integrity of the bullet is the only concern, apply wisely.
1382 fps with the 543-grainer might be better for elephant brain shooting than the same bullet at 2279 fps.

All of the below were fired from a .458 WIN with 23" barrel, .458"-grooved, 1:14" twist, by McGowen.
All were accurate.
All used same 65.0 grains of AA-2230,
same brass (WW) and primer (WLRM).

Note the relationship between depth of seating and higher velocity/pressure obtained for a given fixed powder charge used for all six bullets, of different weights.
In this trial, the heaviest bullet, seated the deepest (the good ol' 543-gr Saeco #020), gave the highest velocity.
Take your pick, they are all good loads.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001

Ignored post by RIP posted