Rip ...

quote:

Punch Bullet

https://gunblast.com/BeltMtn_PunchBullet.htm


Rip ...

The spirit of The Founders rises. Adapt and overcome.
Well done.

Rip,
You are well read.
Thanks for the pic.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Site of a recent Land Rover TV commercial, where it drove up those 999 steps:

Stupid IS as Stupid DOES.

Forrest Gump

Cleansing of gene pool!

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
The spirit of The Founders rises. Adapt and overcome.
Well done.

Backwoods Bubba says "Shucks. Buy a donkey."

The MAGPUL is a great one for the AR-15.
It can still be used for that, even with a new hole drilled through it.
Box instructions for proper use:



It will probably get tried on Goldie Ruger-Pedersoli the .45-2.6"-SWT with some "Quigley Ruse" loads in the heavy rifle.
Much more gentlemanly that "Selous Ruse" loads in an 8-pound rifle.

The NECG peep and the MAGPUL peep weigh about the same.
Weighs about 2.5 to 3 ounces of all steel.
"Shipping weight" from MidwayUSA is 2.88 ounces (0.180 pound).

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...003372059?pid=796818

I found mine at a local emporium 10 bucks cheaper than the Midway USA price no shipping for that one!

Better living through chemistry AND investment casting, I reckon.
Marcella is 1 ounce under 8 pounds with either rear sight installed.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Stupid IS as Stupid DOES.
Forrest Gump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NtsNX75BeY

There was a camel, or a Red Bull, that made it through the eye of that needle in 2013, but he used a considerably higher elevation (helicopter) to jump off of instead of a cliff only a few hundred meters from impact,
and had no 180-degree turn to start into after a 20 meter fall.
That camel could not thread that needle.
Heaven's Gate, how ironic.
Do stupid people go to heaven?

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:
Cleansing of gene pool!

Do Darwin Award winners go to heaven?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Rip,
You are well read.
Thanks for the pic.

Buy a donkey !
But readin'bout'em is the extent of my knowledge of Belt Mountain's Punch bullets.
Can they still be found for sale ?
Will sambarman338 have to make his own from Woodleigh HYDROs ?

Rip ...

Homemade Punch bullets, I thought upon again ...

https://www.barnesbullets.com/bullets/banded-solids/

BARNES BANDED SOLID not available in .458-caliber because of .458 SOCOM armor piercing capability with that bullet ?

Punch bullets would be better.
And they are gone too ?


The mighty .458-caliber is so good that it suffers only due to its greatness.

Rip ...

Barnes received a heavy dose of the "Interstate commerce clause" of our "Common Sense" Federal Government and understandably rolled over on the .458 Solids.
Sadly.

quote:

Punch bullets would be better.
And they are gone too ?

Rip, Not quite.
Grizzly cartridge bought the rights to the Punch bullet a few years ago after we used them in our African bullet testing adventure.
The Grizzly web site shows .45-70+p ammo loaded with 400 grain Punch bullets; 2050 fps (all you need to shoot through an ele head, 2-3 cape buff, etc).
I have heard that shooters that placed on line orders for that .45-70 Punch ammo never had the order acknowledged.

I recently gave my next to last 430 grain .458 Punch to a man that wants to make his own because he is one of those that was unable to order them from Grizzly.If he succeeds, I will get some for my .45-90 which has shot them quite well back when available.
There is also a creative European hunter that made his own version using copper in place of brass. That bullet is a bore rider like the North Fork. He reports great accuracy and penetration with those.

A few years ago I ordered some punch bullets,I called to place the order & paid on the spot,it took months to get delivery & numerous phone calls to get the bullets,they are reserved for when my 45-90 turns into a DG killer.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
A few years ago I ordered some punch bullets,I called to place the order & paid on the spot,it took months to get delivery & numerous phone calls to get the bullets,they are reserved for when my 45-90 turns into a DG killer.

My 45-90 shoots them well!
I am willing to take them off your hands .

RIP,
Here is a link to the "45-70 for plains game" thread where I found the "home made" .458 Punch bullets.
https://www.africahunting.com/...r-plains-game.54393/
You can read it all or just skim down to the posts by "Serbian Hunter" where the good bullet stuff and pix are.
Enjoy!

PS SH appears to be a real rifleman!



Bill73, you should enjoy also. (yeah, yeah, I will get back to our hog shoot soon)

The hole I thought of drilling (with lathe) in the Woodleigh bullets was not as wide as Punch's, but would have gone almost the complete length in order to help balance.

Do the Punch bullets make a bow-wave wound channel as well?

Do the Punch bullets make a bow-wave wound channel as well?

Since I do no know the "bow wave", I will say that their effect is much like NF or other large meplat flat point solids. They shoot through things like bones, flesh, ele heads, everything. They do not expand but PUNCH their way through target animals.
The name of their game is penetration.

crshelton,

Buy a donkey for that link to some good reading.
Serbian Hunter's design for a .45-70 Govt.-optimizing bullet is a good one.
400-grains in a copper&lead version of the brass&lead Punch bullet would allow it to be a little shorter than the Punch, copper being more dense than brass.
Depends on the amount of lead fill, of course.

The softer copper is not stressed much at all at 1850 fps for the 400-grain "Serbian Punch" bullet.
One would have to hit heavy bone to get any deformity at all with .45-70-MV.
That bullet could be made to go 2500 fps in the mighty .458 WIN.
Ought to be perfect there too.
My Iron Waterboard Buffalo testing of monometal brass and copper FN showed the copper expanded the nose slightly at about 2600 fps
while the brass FN did not expand noticeably until above 2700 fps.

Scarfed from your link are photos below, Serbian Punch.



Must have hit bone with this one:



Sebian Hunter's penetration test, 400-grainer at 1850 MV zipped right through 60 inches of water:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
The hole I thought of drilling (with lathe) in the Woodleigh bullets was not as wide as Punch's, but would have gone almost the complete length in order to help balance.

Do the Punch bullets make a bow-wave wound channel as well?

Paul,

I think you are asking if the Punch bullets do the "super-cavitation" thing.
If any bullet will do it, the Punch would.
Ditto the Serbian Punch.
Don't get Alf started on the semantics of it.

Punch bullets, brass or copper/Serbian, have too much meplat diameter to feed well in a bolt action.
The sharp edge might catch on an extractor cut in the M70 breech too.
They are certainly superior in a lever action, double rifle or single shot.

Rip ...

There is a way to get as much penetration as the Punch, or more,
without the oversized, sharp-edged meplat.
It is the sum of velocity, sectional density, and non-deforming FN nose shape.
100 inches of water and 9" thickness of plywood was passed through by a .395/330-gr brass FN at 2400 fps.



I had to make the IWB tougher to consider any higher velocity testing.
Only 10 water compartments, in the IWB, so double the boards between the water compartments.

I fired the same bullet at just over 2800 fps into another variation of the Iron Waterboard Buffalo.
There were two boards (1/2" plywood X 2) between each 8"-thick, flat-sided, plastic water bucket.
It made it through 8 water buckets, stopping on the 8th inch-thick plywood partition.
Call that a penetration score of 8 in the tougher version of the IWB, for the S&H .395/330-gr brass FN.

The GSC .395/340-gr copper FN at just over 2700 fps scored a 7, stopped by the 7th plywood partition.
Did not make it into the 8th water bucket.

Pictures of the unfired and recoverd bullets are below.
The copper FN starts expanding on water impact at somewhat less than 2700 fps, I think it's safe to say.
Gerard Shultz did it at lower velocity by shooting them into 50-gallon steel drums full of sand.
The brass FN at 2800 fps impact required calipers to measure nose diameter increase of a few thousandths of an inch.

So with the huge case capacity of the .458 WIN,
Punch technology is not needed.

How about that .277 SIG Fury using 80,000 PSI with steel-headed, brass-topped case ?
That new technology looks perfect for a steel-belted .458 WIN case.
Maybe the .458 WIN can beat the .460 Weatherby with some of that 80,000 PSI stuff ?



I do not think we need a 6.5-pound, 16"-barreled rifle for the .458 WIN-SIG Fury, however.



But, that suppressor might add enough weight to the SIG "Cross" (hunting rifle model name) to make it tolerable in .458 WIN-SIG Fury.




Rip ...

I would rather try that hammer forged lathe turned brass than a two piece case.

SIG says it is a 3-piece case.
Some "secret"/proprietary hidden part that holds the brass and steel together.
Is it a rivet that holds a brass head inside a steel head and also forms the primer pocket ???
Or is it a smear of J-B Weld ???
What kind of primer looks like this after firing at 80,000 PSI ???









The prototype cases are lathe-turned and with blank headstamp.
Sig says it will have a less expensive mass production technology and a proper headstamp, eventually.
Seeing will be believing, and only then should it be considered for application to the mighty .458 WIN.
Thus shall there cometh the .458 WIN-SIG Fury.

Rip ...

Why not just do a 100% steel case 458 win? Why would it need to go to 80k? what velocity would another 20k get you? would it not be diminishing returns for increased pressure?

Check out the crimp on that Fury round. If we have a 458WM Fury RIP, Fury01 might be tempted... Naa Got all I need now.

Your primer question is an interesting one indeed. Darned good one I guess to contain 80K PSI and look like that.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Why not just do a 100% steel case 458 win? Why would it need to go to 80k? what velocity would another 20k get you? would it not be diminishing returns for increased pressure?

Did the Nazis use steel cases for their 8x57mm ?
Did French wildcatters use those steel cases for amazing feats ?

Is special tooling necessary for handloading fired steel-cased empties ?

Yes, the .458 WIN is so powerful with standard drawn brass, we really do not need 80,000 psi ammo.
Just yanking your chain, boom stick.

But I bet the barrel would last longer on an 80,000 PSI .458 WIN than on a .277 SIG Fury at same pressure.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Check out the crimp on that Fury round ...

Some kind of collet crimper similar to a Lee Factory Crimp die?

https://www.gunsamerica.com/di...ig-fury-demystified/

About that third part of the 3-piece case that holds a brass base inside of the steel head:
Could it be a flat-head titanium-steel machine screw that is hollowed out for the flash hole,
and J-B Weld as thread locker ?
J-B Weld ain't cheap !

Rip ...

I would say some kind of collet crimp and that sucker is tight! Start pressure will be very high but I guess with a 80K psi case, who cares?

https://www.thefirearmblog.com...2019/09/DSC_0075.jpg

"locking "washer" " is the 3rd part

Funny how they show the brass piece fitting into the steel piece and both pieces have extractor cuts on them ...
and the extractor cut is cut open on the brass piece ...
and a "locking washer" ... ?
I can't tell how it works from that.
A bit of haha subterfuge and still a proprietary secret,
or I am just too stupid to understand.

Will the .277 SIG Fury be reloadable by the handloader ?

I get this "Cross-over" thing with heavy precision rifle and light hunting rifle.

I would rather have a 6.2-pound SIG Cross than a 10.6-pound Ruger Precision Rifle
or 6.75-pound Ruger American Predator,
especially if I can only get the .277 SIG Fury in that SIG Cross rifle.
Until then,
I have a 5.75-pound .270 WCF in a Weatherby Mark V Ultralightweight with 24" barrel.
Just takes 8" more barrel and near 20,000 psi less pressure,
to get similar ballistics in a lighter rifle.
And afterall, they are both just pushfeeds with tiny extractors and plunger-style ejectors.
Not much difference between them for hunting purposes except the folding stock and 16" barrel on the Cross would allow it to go INSIDE a backpack.
The contours of the Weatherby would be less snaggy in brush.

Just to stay ON MISSION:

I will also say that the .458 WIN-V 3.6" evolved from an experimental U.S. rimfire with drawn brass case 1.409" long
and with COL of 2.527". The .459-caliber/500-grain grease-grooved bullet was loaded LongCOL in 1864, during the CIVIL WAR.
Hoyem called it the .44-45-500 (11.18mm) U.S. Experimental, 1864-1865 (pp. 164, 202 of VOLUME ONE).

An even earlier ancestor was the flintlock, .45-caliber, Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle,
from which the Brits took inspiration for their muzzleloading, percussion "Express Rifles"
(Lt. Col. Sir David Davidson in the 1830s, who even did pioneering work on telescopic sights for muzzleloaders),
before Purdey coined the term "Express Rifle" for his two-groove, winged-conical, percussion double rifles in the 1850s.

Thank the Americans, for the beginnings of the .458 WIN.
Also a buy a donkey to the ones in New Hampshire who are building the SIG Cross. Something different.

Rip ...

Meanderings along the way from flintlock to .458 Winchester Magnum, includes these excerpts from Hoyem for book review purposes,
VOLUME ONE of the four volumes:



Front (above) and back (below) of dust jacket, and inside flaps belower.

My notations in red link the two black and white excerpts below.

Book review: Wonderful book.
I just wanted to clarify that #43 and #45 above are not related to the .458 WIN versus the .458 Lott dead horse.
And note those grease grooves hanging out in the breeze.
LongCOL and shallow seating might have worked OK in Gatling guns.
They work very well in the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Measuring lead bullets that are over 100 years old is tricky. Forget about it if they are dug out of the ground at Gettysburg.

Rip ...

Buy a donkey indeed on those grease grooves out in the breeze sir.

Fury01,

So you are fluent in Afrikaans, eh ?
I let my grease grooves hang out whenever possible.
I just use Harbor Freight Red PC paint as the grease.
It also makes paper patches obsolete.

Rip ...

Behold, the Walterhog .458/450-grainer, capable of 6000 ft-lbs in the .458 WIN-V 3.6".



Barnes .458/450-grain TSX bullets might be easier to find for the handloader:



Rip ...

The .458" 450gr Walterhog is a mockup from simply scaling up the diameters of the .375" 300gr Walterhog.
Length measurements are same for both calibers.
It is pretty cool how well a Walterhog .458/450gr can be adapted to the throat of a .458 WIN.

Those Walterhog bands are mighty complicated, and maybe too delicate to survive the jump through the "event horizon" of the .458 WIN.

The simple, hammer-forged and grooved TSX might be the best way to go for more reasons than mere availability.

Rip ...

The Dream Bullets from GSC are the .458-caliber HV bullets.
We know the GSC drive bands work very well on the .458/400-gr HV at +2500 fps from the .458 WIN-V 3.4", using only 3.395" COL.

The .458/450-grain HV at +2400 fps might be even better.
That would be the "Everyman's Walterhog" for the .458 WIN.
.458/450-gr SD = .306
.375/300-gr SD = .305

No flies on that .458/450-gr HV.
Seat it 0.430" deep (case mouth of 2.5" brass aligns midway between third and fourth drive band of five,
counting from nose of bullet toward base,
from top to bottom)
and the COL will be exactly 3.600",
perfect as can be for the .458 WIN-V 3.6".









Minimum impact speed recommended by GSC is 1600 fps for all four bullet weights above, for hunting purposes.
There is no upper limit on MV for these bullet, especially if fired from the Mighty .458 WIN.

Rip ...