quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Which rifles did you use to compare the two?
Did you use a long throated CZ 550 for the 458 WM and a short neck rifle for the Lott?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Which rifles did you use to compare the two?
Did you use a long throated CZ 550 for the 458 WM and a short neck rifle for the Lott?

"SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott is easy to beat with a SAAMI-chambered .458 WIN" This is what RIP is referring to. A long action and mag box like the CZ is needed for the 3.6" OAL but the throat is SAAMI. That is the Basis of this entire Thread.

Actually, the CZ550 in .458 Win Mag has the true magnum action that allows a COL of 3.8", and the long SAAMI throat that permits full use of the action. The Lott, as per SAAMI, is limited to 3.6" because of the shorter throat.

My Ruger No.1 in .458 WIN permits a COL as long as the length of the bullet permits, which in the case of the 450gr TSX is 3.68" when crimped into the bottom cannelure. For the 500gr TSX, it can be loaded to a COL of 3.78" in either the CZ or Ruger No.1, that permits more space in the .458 WIN case for powder than in a Lott case. This has been covered multiple times in this thread.

I've owned both rifles, still owning the Ruger, and have loaded each to the COLs mentioned above, thus potentially exceeding the velocities of the .458 Lott, having published the same ten years ago in my reloading journal on the .458 Win Mag. Now out of print.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Rip and all,
Have you seen the NEMO AR in .458 Win Mag?

https://www.petersenshunting.c...nemo-omen-458/272789

If only the game wardens of old had these!

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Rip and all,
Have you seen the NEMO AR in .458 Win Mag?

https://www.petersenshunting.c...nemo-omen-458/272789

For all the flowers sent my way, buy a buy a donkey y'all.
Dennis and Bob, you did good splainin' to shootaway.
For shootaway:

The early .458 Lott from CZ used the original CIP chamber.
It had the same throat as on the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag., but tacked onto the chamber for 2.8" brass.
I had one of those, could never find the end of the throat with any bullet that would fit inside a 3.8" magazine box.
I traded the rifle in and somebody not in the know snatched it right off the used rack.

That is not a SAAMI .458 Lott chamber, which has even less throat than the original .458 Lott wildcat that Jack built
by simply re-chambering SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. rifles with no barrel setback, so he had the full remnant
.458 Win.Mag. throat,
with chamber allowing use of 2.8" brass.

CIP has since revised their .458 Lott homologation to match the SAAMI standard for the .458 Lott, except the exact pressure, MAP, is slightly different.

Also CIP differs on the MAP for the .458 Win.Mag.
They let the CIP .458 Win.Mag. have the same red-faced level MAP as the CIP .458 Lott.
CIP and SAAMI otherwise agree on the .458 Win.Mag. homologation. MAP is the only difference.

After this it gets tricky and you, shootaway, have to figure out the interactions between bullets, brass, magazine lengths and chambers of various throat length.
It has all been explained many times, earlier on this thread.
Go read it.
Probably for the first time, eh?

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Rip and all,
Have you seen the NEMO AR in .458 Win Mag?

https://www.petersenshunting.c...nemo-omen-458/272789

Yes, we have drooled over this previously.
I want one, and a Krieghoff Semprio in .458 WIN too.
Buy a donkey and feed it some of those flowers from Mike and Bob, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

The Gang of Six:



The TSX bullets exist in different lots, aye.

"500-gr" lengths are about 1.65" to 1.67", weights usually +/- 1 grain, varying hollow point depths,
and even small differences in distance from base to bottom cannelure.

"450-gr" lengths are about 1.51" to 1.52", blah, blah, blah.

T6 bullets are unvarying, to the nearest 0.1 grain and 0.001 inch.
Hollow point dimensions are varied concentrically to correct the weight to exacto.

Rip ...

Here is how we can have bullets of different length that have the same weight,
and bullets of different weight that have the same length: It's in the nose.



"T6" is short for "Triple Shock Improved X-Bullet," i.e., TSIX.

"SS" is for "Semi-Solid" which hit like a semi truck.
I went ahead and chamfered the little hole on the end of the 480.7-grain Ex-TSX-500-grainer,
got it down to 480.0 grains, and 1.446", somehow.
Actually this was easy, idiot proof, even a Democratic Party politician could do it.

"HP" is for ... wait for it ... "Hollow Point."

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
sambarman338,

Buy a donkey for ringing THE MISSION bell.

Sorry Ron, couldn't help myself. You might recall a dude on 24-Hour Campfire asserted there were only about two dozen regular 458 Lott users in the world. If that's so, by what I've seen of the Brotherhood, you could count the Democrats on your ears

Bullet number 4 looks it was designed for shooting roos and pigs with the 460

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

... you could count the Democrats on your ears

Wouldn't that be nice !
Too good to be true,
unlike the proven superiority of the .458 WIN over the .458 Lott.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Bullet number 4 looks it was designed for shooting roos and pigs with the 460

Perfect for stopping the charge of a giant red kangaroo buck or Hogzilla.

Who gets the roo meat ?
Waste not want not.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

I have seen the light oh great master & champion of the underappreciated 458WM,I shall henceforth buy some washers to clean up my act,I had been trimming bullets in a die such as yours of a different caliber but without using the washers,
the drilling of the nose is brilliant,my guns thank you,especially my 45 cal Lever guns,hot little numbers those,now they will be shooting true DG bullets

Bill73,
Buy a donkey for the flowers.
Do tell what weight of flatnosed bullet you are planning for your 45-cal leverguns, pretty please.

I thought of something else to refine the bullet trimming die.
Polish the sharp, leading edges off the threads inside the die where the bullet nose contacts the die at top of press travel.
This will prevent cosmetic marring of the noses with scratches needing to be polished off with steel wool. Less finger-fuss-work.

Also polish the inside edges of the washer being used on top of the die, wherever it might contact the bullet nose sticking above the die.
Bang away with the file and not scratch the bullet nose with those unsightly circumferential rings.

Use polishing spuds and jewellers' rouge with a Dremel Tool, etc., on any sharp edges of washers or file-trim die that might contact bullet nose.

Get a fast-cut, coarse bastard file, and finer, finishing file, big as possible, for the last few thousandths of an inch.
Get an assortment of washer thicknesses, use multiple washers in a stack and take them away as you go.
You might have so much fun that you will want to forget about the mini chop saw from Harbor Freight:



I am headed to Lowe's where I get a 10 % veteran's discount, to look for the finest of files and washers.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Bullet number 4 looks it was designed for shooting roos and pigs with the 460

Perfect for stopping the charge of a giant red kangaroo buck or Hogzilla.

Who gets the roo meat ?
Waste not want not.

Rip ...

Male Reds are left on ground too hard to get in back of Landcruiser to go back for dog meat. I don't know their weight but I think it would be less than it feels and because of their weight distribution. Actually in the spotlight if one stands right up they an impressive looking thing, especially to someone who sees on for the first time.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com...ed-hollow-point-50ct

Single load 458WM Subsonic?

Ruger #1 @ 1800 fps for rainbow lobbing?

I resent that. Surely a red roo would have something that would be good to eat?!

In Africa I remember the first time I heard about "waterbuck." The word was that they were smelly and didn't taste good. I was hosting a PH out in a remote area as a relatively recent arrival to Africa and asked him about waterbuck. He just smiled and said, "Hey, you've got one on your license. Shoot one and taste them."
That was good advice. Waterbuck are absolutely excellent. Even old males. Perhaps the trick is to clean them carefully and keep the meat from touching any of the skin/oily-hair. Keep the glands off, too. I don't know. I haven't shot that many waterbuck, but I can say that we have thoroughly enjoyed everyone. The meat is a little bit darker than, say, hartebeest, maybe more like bushbuck, but tender and tasty tasty.
Maybe it has to do with washing the meat with water so that it is clean clean, and then freezing the stuff. Whatever. If God didn't want us to be omnivores he wouldn't have made antelope out of meat.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

I resent that. Surely a red roo would have something that would be good to eat?!

That is not what I said.

I said they are too heavy to lift into Landcruiser to take back for dog meat as well as just being too big in the back of the Landcruiser while you are spotlight shooting.

Plus it is not you will shoot just one of them.

This is partly off topic, and in part not.

But speaking of dead red roos and not having room for them in the Landcruiser, a different but interesting event happened one mid-morning when I was bear hunting over one of my baits having my British friend along who was interested in observing the procedure, and perhaps getting into a bear hunt himself.

Oh, and did I mention that he weighed about 400 lbs himself!

Anyway, a bear showed up at about 10:30 am and I shot it with my Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT. The bullet was a 500gr Hornady RN Interloc leaving the muzzle at about 2185 fps. (At times it would hit the 2200 fps mark or exceed that, which depended on the particular powder lot.) Angle of shot was quartering toward me at 40 yards. The bullet hit just aft of the left front shoulder at +2100 fps and made exit in the offside flank, but the bear still ran about 20 yards into some underbrush, bawled and died. It was simply a test for that bullet, I wanted to see how it would work on a thin-skinned bear.

A much longer story made shorter: I put a rope around its neck and pulled it to a location where I'd tied a pole (from the woods) between two trees to hang the bear on for skinning. I'd already field dressed it where it expired. My friend being so heavy was not a big help because we were on the side of a rough ridge, but he did help in getting the bear tied up to the pole so I could start the skinning process.

It was a warm day and that meant hornets and yellow jacket wasps were wanting a taste of the exposed fat and blood, so I was constantly trying to shoo them off the neck and shoulders where I began working. At the same time of skinning with one hand I was pulling the hide down over one shoulder. I grabbed a handful of hide and fur to pull it downward when a black and white hornet was also grabbed in my left hand and it stung me in the middle of the palm. That was so painful, I had to abandon skinning, cut the rope and dragged the bear to my small Chrysler Neon, stuffed it into the trunk with the back seats folded forward so it occupied part of the rear seat as well. My British friend "occupied" the bucket seat on the passenger side -- he was bigger than the bear!

Anyway, I got the passenger home, and the bear was hung in my garage and I finished the skinning the next day. No kidding, that was the worst sting in my whole life! I had to take medication to calm the pain so I could sleep!

Have any of you ever had a similar situation?

By the way - that bullet never expanded but the inside cavity was filled with blood, and a 2-foot loop of unbroken bowel was outside the body poking through a bullet diameter size hole!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
https://cuttingedgebullets.com...ed-hollow-point-50ct

Single load 458WM Subsonic?

Ruger #1 @ 1800 fps for rainbow lobbing?

That would be a hoot, just needs a fast twist barrel on your .458 WIN or your 460 Steyr.
CEB recommends 1:11" or faster twist.

According to McGowen's twist calculator,
for that .458"/ 650-gr Lazer made of copper 2.562" long
MV/twist
1800 fps/ 1:11"
1500 fps/ 1:10"
1200 fps/ 1:9"
1100 fps/ 1:8.6" or 1:8", but shooting through transonic needs 1" to 2" faster twist, according to CEB, so make it a 1:6" twist to be safe,
if for a dedicated subsonic rifle ...

Yes, looks like that bullet might fit in the .458 WIN throat with 1.818" bullet projection from 2.500" case so COL = 4.318".

Yes, I think the MIGHTY .458 WIN could do 1800 fps with the 650-grainer, easily.
1800 fps is fast enough for adequate fun.
1:10" twist would be peachy-keen with a general purpose .458 WIN that could do ultra long range hunting.
I have a .458 B&M with 1:10" twist and it is excellent with 450-grain bullets,
just not as good as a .458 WIN.

According to CEB, the Lazer does not expand but fractures (within 2" of penetration) into 3 large petals at as low as 1200 fps impact.
The remaining stubby continues as a penetrator.

The BC is yet TO BE DETERMINED, surely ought to be about 1.000 G1.
At 1800 fps MV it would still be 1214 fps at 1000 yards.
Perfect !
Scant wind drift but quite the rainbow trajectory.
3" high at 100 yards, zeroed at 20 yards and 165 yards, ~ 4" low at 200 yards,
and "only" ~51 feet low at 1000 yards, with less than 5 feet wind drift at 1000 yards in 10 mph crosswind.

Rip ...

That is a shame to waste kangaroo meat, for human food or dogfood.
Some consider it quite the delicacy and a health food.
There are people who call themselves "kangatarians" that are otherwise vegans except for kangaroo meat.
It does not taste like chicken, I have read.

But they are pests to human agriculture that need control, even if they do fart less methane than beef cattle on a farts-per-pound-of-meat basis.

Must be human agriculture in Australia is increasing the kangaroo population much like deer in the US.
Gotta slaughter a bunch or they will get diseased like chronic wasting disease, etc., among US game.
Also prevents human death on the highways.

Has Disney thought about a cartoon movie called something like "Wambi" or "The Kangaroo King?"

Rip ...

Bob,

When I was a kid, I angered a wasp nest. I was treated with tobacco poultices. Old Kentucky folk remedy for stings.
I have a grudge to this day against wasps.

I am sure I would find the inland bears you harvest to be fine eating, with enough cooking and enough barbecue sauce.
Inland bear burgoo would be great.
I want nothing to do with the coastal ones that eat fish.
Dark, greasy bear meat with a fishy flavor, not my cup of tea,
tried it, could not do it.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Must be human agriculture in Australia is increasing the kangaroo population much like deer in the US.

Especially the kangaroo because fences are no barrier.

The Eastern Grey is also quite big (the male) but a fair bit smaller than the Red. Outside of a zoo the average person in Sydney would not have seen a Red as they are generally well inland. The male is certainly not an animal to be toyed with. Make short work of a dog and doubly so in water.

Bob
I shot a small doe in the chest as she came out of a thicket at close range with my 458wm and flat nose cast at 1750 FPS. Bullet exited her flank and a good part of her intestine was hanging out the hole. Normal filled with blood from big hole in thoracic parts. Not sure how / what caused the intestine to evacuate.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Bob,

When I was a kid, I angered a wasp nest. I was treated with tobacco poultices. Old Kentucky folk remedy for stings.
I have a grudge to this day against wasps.

I am sure I would find the inland bears you harvest to be fine eating, with enough cooking and enough barbecue sauce.
Inland bear burgoo would be great.
I want nothing to do with the coastal ones that eat fish.
Dark, greasy bear meat with a fishy flavor, not my cup of tea,
tried it, could not do it.

Rip ...

Yeah, I know what you mean. Bear meat flavor, like other edible game, depends mostly on what they've been feeding on. Thankfully, black bears feed mostly on grasses, wild berries, fruits (like from old farm apple trees), and in my baiting I used mostly honey filters. So the meat was somewhat sweet. But, as well, they will feed on carrion in the spring, or anything else that's edible until the grasses begin to appear. Of course they are ravenous in the fall (and spring) so baiting with sweets (and they love sweet stuff) is the way to go. We've also used icecream from a nearby factory that they were discarding -- five gallon buckets full! Very heavy to tote very far though. Of course it became mostly liquefied in a few hours -- the bears didn't mind though, even though most got spilled onto the ground they still tried to dig it up!

Yes, they ate the complete honey filters that were used once and filled with dripping honey, pollen and bees wax -- and any other debris mixed in! Their scat was easily detectable as those feeding at the bait site due to the white paper fibre mixed with black poop.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Fury01,
Vacuum !
My .405 exit holes sometimes have some innards pulled out. Must be a common occurrence.

Happened with the first 8 pointer I shot (years ago) - broadside range was less than 10 yards and the lung fragments were sucked out by the 150 grain .308 bullet and spread over a mesquite tree on the off side. When deer was cleaned there were no lungs in the body.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Fury01,
Vacuum !
My .405 exit holes sometimes have some innards pulled out. Must be a common occurrence.

Happened with the first 8 pointer I shot (years ago) - broadside range was less than 10 yards and the lung fragments were sucked out by the 150 grain .308 bullet and spread over a mesquite tree on the off side. When deer was cleaned there were no lungs in the body.

Well then we have discovered that the magnificent 458WM is also an excellent Vacuum! For the Mission!

And I should also have mentioned that black bears (along with grizzly, etc.) will kill any live animal for food that it can catch. Sometimes they wait in a hide for an animal (deer for example) to pass. Big adult males also kill moose and sometimes smaller bears. In my hunting ventures I've come across black fur mixed with bear scat. Where meat protein is involved, they have no prejudices, even to eating human flesh!

I was watching a TV program last evening on an Alaskan State Trooper who was investigating two caribou kills far out on a frozen lake. But the ice at its thickest was only 3-inches close to shore, and at the bull caribou was only 1-inch thick. There was cracking and popping sounds all around him, but he and the hunter managed to retrieve the carcasses, with much trepidation. After the fact, a comment by the Trooper was both instructive and revealing: Not an exact quote, but in effect this: "Many hunters perish falling through the ice trying to retrieve their game. It's mostly not due to ignorance, but arrogance: "It will never happen to me". The same aptly applies to those who go into bear habitat.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I'm sure that if a slow-motion video cam could have recorded what happened with regard to the bear I shot with the bowel outside from a hole that pinched two sections of the bowel without rupture, it would have shown that flank being stretched to nearly 1-foot away from the body with a gaping hole of 2 to 3 inches with the bowel following. Then, faster than any eye could detect, the skin and flesh of that wound snapped back into place pinching the loop of bowel.

Actual slow motion films have revealed such incidents where the offside of a game animal was stretched nearly a foot following the exit of the bullet. The pressure inside an animal from a high velocity bullet is immense in correspondence with the kinetic energy produced in those millesimal-seconds.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Bill73,
Buy a donkey for the flowers.
Do tell what weight of flatnosed bullet you are planning for your 45-cal leverguns, pretty please.

I thought of something else to refine the bullet trimming die.
Polish the sharp, leading edges off the threads inside the die where the bullet nose contacts the die at top of press travel.
This will prevent cosmetic marring of the noses with scratches needing to be polished off with steel wool. Less finger-fuss-work.

Also polish the inside edges of the washer being used on top of the die, wherever it might contact the bullet nose sticking above the die.
Bang away with the file and not scratch the bullet nose with those unsightly circumferential rings.

Use polishing spuds and jewellers' rouge with a Dremel Tool, etc., on any sharp edges of washers or file-trim die that might contact bullet nose.

Get a fast-cut, coarse bastard file, and finer, finishing file, big as possible, for the last few thousandths of an inch.
Get an assortment of washer thicknesses, use multiple washers in a stack and take them away as you go.
You might have so much fun that you will want to forget about the mini chop saw from Harbor Freight:



I am headed to Lowe's where I get a 10 % veteran's discount, to look for the finest of files and washers.

Rip ...

I want a 400 gr Tsx style bullet for my 450 Alaskans,with the nose profile being such that I can get a good max OAL,leaving max amount of space for powder,it might be a lost cause but it will be fun to try

Yes, a .458"/ 400-grain Big Meplat Hollow Point,
aka
T6-400gr-BP
Make it from a 450-gr TSX.
Maybe a T6-450gr-BP made from a 500-gr TSX.

Devastating at 1800 to 2500 fps with the 400-grainer, 1700 to 2400 fps with the 450-grainer.
More so than a 400-gr Barnes Buster "solid" with a pinhole opening in its flat nose, cup & core.

The T6-BP bullet: Whatever you and your lever action, single shot, or bolt action prefer.
Both Elmer and Finn would approve.

I'm on it.

Rip ...

Rip,
I complement you on your bullet tuning work and the 450 grain one looks best for me and my .458 rifles; lever guns and double.

However, since I needed them ten+ years ago, I settled for the Alaska Bullet Works 450 grain Kodiak FMJ for the 45-70 and 45-90.
My 45-90 spits them out at 2150 fps and Yes, they will shoot through two (2) Cape buffalo or bison when presented a broadside shot.
The 45-70 MV is a bit less, but still more than enough for buffalo, as was proven with our African bullet tests back then.

My work supports your .458 Winchester Magnum Mission by showing the obvious === if a .458 levergun can do it, the .458 Win Mag can do it better!

crshelton,

Buy a donkey for those flowers.

My preliminary calculation with mensuration formulae,
approximating the TSX nose as a
frustrum of a right circular cone
and the hollow point as an empty right circular cylinder,
yields this approximation:

Chop off 0.360" of the nose.
450-gr TSX becomes a 403-gr T6-SS, hollow-point it to exactly 400 grains and about 1.152" long.
500-gr TSX becomes a 453-gr T6-SS, hollow-point it to exactly 450-grains and about 1.300" long.

The noses of both TSX and resulting T6 bullets would be identical, except for hollow point depth.
Cutting off 0.360" length of the TSX ogived section will still leave some hollow point remnant in both.
This is important for keeping the hollow point work concentric with hand tools.

Meplat is estimated to be 0.360" diameter, after shortening by 0.360", another God Wink.
That is a 78.6 % meplat.
Might be too big/blunt to feed in a bolt action.
Might feed in a lever action.
For sure good in a single shot.

The T6-.458"/ 400gr BP has 4 cannelures.
The T6-.458"/ 450gr BP has 5 cannelures.

Drilling and chamfering the hollow points to remove 3 grains of copper would make for a nice hollow point on the Big Meplat,
great in a tubular magazine.

Cut and try, weigh, file, drill, chamfer.
Perfection is the T6 standard.
Those two would complete the "Big Six" of the T6 line.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Which rifles did you use to compare the two?
Did you use a long throated CZ 550 for the 458 WM and a short neck rifle for the Lott?

Poor shootaway. Nothing comes out of his brain except jibberish.
He thought he was leaving a flaming paper bag full of dog poop on my doorstep,
but he forgot to put the dog poop in the bag before he lit it, rang the doorbell and ran off.
If he were a citizen of the USA, he would likely be a registurd Democratic Party member.

Rip ...

For to get to page 180, for THE MISSION:

I know which I would rather have, if I had to pick only one:

This one:

This one is for Mike, since he needs a skinning knife, and he appreciates the diversity of material covered here, at THE MISSION:



Would it not be great to hunt kangaroos with the .458 WIN ?
That would be some quality time !

Rip ...

The mensuration formulae for Mike to check my arithmetic on the T6 bullets: