quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

RIP, maybe the “problem” with the 458 WM is that it is the 30-06 of big bores.

And the 416 Rigby is potentially the 270 Weatherby of big bores.
The 416 Ruger is the 270 Win of big bores.

Here is what the McGowen barrel (500 AccRel Nyati) did:



That is a .510" caliber at 100 yards, 0.45" group of three, producing 6500ft# of recoil.

What velocity is that load producing ?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
With this reasoning, why not the 400 Whelen?

Excellent question.
Mainly because this is the .458 WIN thread, not the .400 Whelen thread.
I consider the .400 Whelen to be about equal to 2/3 of a .458 WIN, but if it is a 6-shooter .400 as compared to a 4-shooter .458,
then empty the magazine of both and the effect is about equal.

.400 Whelen: 6 X 2/3 = 4
.458 WinMag: 4 X 1 = 4

The quicker 4 shots of a .458 WinMag makes it superior to 6 shots of .400 Whelen in a DG/charge situation.

Tee hee.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
... That is a .510" caliber at 100 yards, 0.45" group of three, producing 6500ft# of recoil.

What velocity is that load producing ?

6500 ft-lbs of recoil would require quite a high MV for any usual bullet weight.
Must be a typo.
I think 416Tanzan meant 6500 ft-lbs of KE from bullet at muzzle exit.
.510/360-grainer at about 2850 fps ?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

RIP, maybe the “problem” with the 458 WM is that it is the 30-06 of big bores.

And the 416 Rigby is potentially the 270 Weatherby of big bores.
The 416 Ruger is the 270 Win of big bores.

Here is what the McGowen barrel (500 AccRel Nyati) did:



That is a .510" caliber at 100 yards, 0.45" group of three, producing 6500ft# of recoil.

What velocity is that load producing ?

2850fps, .510" 361gn CEB with tip installed.
6500 foot-pounds muzzle energy, and recoil energy is a tad over 60 ft#.

4000 vs 5000 FPE

More like 4/5

That makes the Whelen the winner!

5.6 vs 4!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
With this reasoning, why not the 400 Whelen?

Excellent question.
Mainly because this is the .458 WIN thread, not the .400 Whelen thread.
I consider the .400 Whelen to be about equal to 2/3 of a .458 WIN, but if it is a 6-shooter .400 as compared to a 4-shooter .458,
then empty the magazine of both and the effect is about equal.

.400 Whelen: 6 X 2/3 = 4
.458 WinMag: 4 X 1 = 4

The quicker 4 shots of a .458 WinMag makes it superior to 6 shots of .400 Whelen in a DG/charge situation.

Tee hee.

Rip ...

Tarzan...
That 360 grain load!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Tanzan...
That 360 grain load!

What's wrong with a 6500ft# load?
Yes, it jostles one a somewhat, but think what is going downfield.

Wouldn't you rather have three of those 6500 ft# 500's than three 400 Whelens'??

I mean -- you never get more than three shots before a time to reload, so that 500ARN would get the job done and the 3 extra whelens would be lying in the rifle in the dust if the first three didn't do the job.

I am just impressed with your powerhouse! It is a great cartridge and that is one heck of an accurate load that could take out anything minus elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I am just impressed with your powerhouse! It is a great cartridge and that is one heck of an accurate load that could take out anything minus elephant.

Yes, 2850fps, 360gn CEB tipped Raptor is an all-purpose buffalo/plains game load at any reasonable distance.

[For elephant I would certainly use one of the solids. Since I live in a city I don't expect to be invited to perform a local cull on a rogue elephant. Nor do I have the $50,000 to spend on a 21-day hunt with an elephant tag and trophy fee. Some of you can afford that, and I salute you, because you help to pay for habitat sustainability.]

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I am just impressed with your powerhouse! It is a great cartridge and that is one heck of an accurate load that could take out anything minus elephant.

Yes, 2850fps, 360gn CEB tipped Raptor is an all-purpose buffalo/plains game load at any reasonable distance.

[For elephant I would certainly use one of the solids. Since I live in a city I don't expect to be invited to perform a local cull on a rogue elephant. Nor do I have the $50,000 to spend on a 21-day hunt with an elephant tag and trophy fee. Some of you can afford that, and I salute you, because you help to pay for habitat sustainability.]

Then the 350 TSX/.458 should do as well on buffalo/plains game at any reasonable distance. In fact, it has been used very effectively on a Water Buffalo cull hunt in Australia to at least 200 yards. Fired from a .458 Win Mag at 2650 fps, the user said it worked as well as anything else at distance, including the 450gr AF and better than a CEB. He shot over 100 water buffs.

From my CZ550, it would do 2750 fps, and now from my Ruger at 2760 fps it will pass the 360 Raptor in energy and speed at 300 yards. It also has a significantly higher sectional density at .238 compared to about .198 for the Raptor, translating into a higher BC.

But, that is excellent accuracy from a "hot" load!

The recoil from the 2760 fps load in my Ruger develops about 54 ft-lbs, minus 15% from the Mag-na-porting = 46 ft- lbs.

Since this thread is about the .458 WIN, thought I'd share some physics too. Seriously, any of the two loads would surely do the job on any Plains game... but on buff, I'd personally choose something heavier than a 350 - 360gr as a "stopper".

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
the 350gn .458" TSX is a different technology. It is designed to mushroom and with its relative light weight it would not be the best choice for penetration on a buffalo-sized animal.
The 360gn CEB Raptor, on the other hand, does not mushroom. The petals blow off and do a decent job of spreading a wound channel all over the place. At the same time the center core cylinder becomes a full flatnose projectile and penetrates deeply because it does not have a wide mushroom but is a solid. In effect, it penetrates more than expanding bullets but less than a full-weight-retaining solid. For a solid one should use a non-raptor. However, when wanting "expanding" ammunition, the raptor provides more than normal penetration.

PS: for "normal" terminal action I load up the 450gnGSC HV to 2600fps. It will do 2675fps, but 2600fps is already 6750 ft#. Recoil is already at 74 ft# with 2600fps, so who wants to do 80 ft# by pushing to 2675fps?

To what may this GSC be compared? To the 458 400gn GSC HV or the 416 330gn GSC HV. Two excellent bullets for buffalo and all around plains game that have been mentioned before in this thread. Those .416" and .458" bullets will have a slight advantage of SD over the .510" but the .510" has a diameter and energy advantage for buffalo. Ron's last (?) buffalo was taken with a .510" 450gn GSC HV at 2654 fps. I remember. He showed a nice still of the buffalo reaction. It was one of the items mixed into the pot when I decided to build a .510".

416 Tanzan;

The most recoil I've endured was from the Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT. With a 3 - 9 x 40 Bushnell Trophy and one 500gr Hornady loaded in chamber, it weighed 8.6 lbs. I practised a lot with that load. Recoil was 72 ft-lbs at 2200 fps average. Twenty years ago I never felt it was too much or at my limit. I killed a good black bear with it. As mentioned, I got the Ruger #1 in .458 to replace it even though ballistics are similar, especially for the heavyweights. It would shoot the 450 AF over 2300 fps. So I wasn't looking for more thump, but reduced recoil due to concern over my one good eye. I can get up to 2300 fps from 500s burning six or seven more grains of gun powder in the .458, but the recoil, with the Mag-na-porting is about 54.5 ft-lbs with that load, or about 25% less from 100 fps greater MV. However, that's at a cost of 2 lbs more weight - which isn't a big deal for me at age 84; for others it might be. But, I don't need that for anything. I'll use relatively slow moving heavies and fast lightweights. I've hit 2980 fps from the 300 TSX, and that wasn't an inordinate load at all at near 6000 ft-lbs. Recoil is about 42 ft-lbs. But I've reduced that to 2778 fps/5140 ft-lbs for long-range bear or deer at 36 ft-lbs recoil.

The .458 WM is obviously not a .510, but in my view it's the best of the Big Bores, all things considered in regard to its versatility.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
4000 vs 5000 FPE

More like 4/5

That makes the Whelen the winner!

5.6 vs 4!

Balderdash !
Kinetic energy at the muzzle is not all there is.
Give the .458 credit for the bloody bigger holes it makes.
Greater bullet weight and greater velocity and far greater momentum.
The .458 has a 24.2% greater cross-sectional area than the .411.
The .458 WIN burns roughly 33% more powder than the .400 Whelen.
The .458 WIN-V can beat 6000 ft-lbs with LongCOL loading.
I have done that with 500-grainers and 450-grainers.
The Barnes TSX 450-grainer at 2450 fps = 6000 ft-lbs exactly.
I have done 2469 fps MV with the 450-grainer in a 25" barrel with 3.680" COL in the .458 WIN-V.
A lesser charge of powder yielding 2448 fps MV comes in just under 6000 ft-lbs.

I was being generous in rating the .400 Whelen whomp at 2/3 of the .458 WIN whomp.
The .458 WIN is easily a sixshooter in the CZ 550 Magnum.
A five-shooter M70 is easy with just a switch to XRM magazine box.

.400 Whelen: 6 X 2/3 = 4
.458 WIN: 5 X 1 = 5
or
.458 WIN: 6 x 1 = 6

Rip ...

One of those CZ front sight ramps would fit nicely on the .400 Whelen-Berry.
That would make the .400 Whelen weigh about 4 ounces more than the .458 WIN with the peep also installed on the rear base of both of them. Not all of it is in the 2" longer barrel.
But, a .400 Whelen barrel IS heavier than a .458 WIN barrel when both are of same length and contour ...

Rip ...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by boom stick:
I am just impressed with your powerhouse! It is a great cartridge and that is one heck of an accurate load that could take out anything minus elephant.[/QUOTE

So if a 375 H+H. 300 gr bullet @ 2500 fps mv , can reliably kill elephants. With a solid. Dont u think a 360 gr Raptor @ 2850 can kill a jumbo.

416 Tanzan,

That is a great .510/360-grain load and great shooting.
But that is a varmint bullet !
Excellent varmint load.
You are wise to stick with the .510/450-grainer for buffalo.



Yes, in the .500 Mbogo that .510/450-grain GSC HV was about 0.75 MOA for 3 shots, 100 yards, at 2654 fps MV.
It was about 1.5 MOA at 2835 fps.
It sure felt better on my shoulder at the lower velocity too.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
The .458 WM is obviously not a .510, but in my view it's the best of the Big Bores, all things considered in regard to its versatility.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

AMEN !

Likely scenario with the .510/360-gr varmint bullet:
.510/360-grainer plastic tip melts in transit or blows off on impact.
.510/350-grainer SD = 0.192 for brass monometal.
6 petals weighing +10 grains each blow off on impact.
.510/290-grain remnant bullet (at most !) SD = 0.159
The little cylinder has a jaggedly irregular front and a nice flat base.
It will most assuredly tumble though might re-stabilize base forward.
A .510-caliber 290-gr or lighter wadcutter will surely not be much of a penetrator.
Best on varmints.

Here is the bullet that Jay Schroeder of S&H designed in 2006-2007 BCEB (Before CEB).
Loaded in the .395 Tatanka, it killed everything it was pointed at in Tanzania, 2010 AD.
Pass-throughs on game from KY deer to African zebra:

Is this what happened ?

Rip ...

RIP,

In describing the penetration of a jagged flat-nose cylinder you forgot to mention all of the testing by Michael McCourrey (458Michael, IIRC). The cylinders did not tumble but penetrated straight, deeper than any of the mushroom bullets.

Artificial media.
Do not tell me that bullets never end up protruding from the off-side hide, base first,
even the smoothly mushroomed ones that are CG-forward.
It happens, even with jagged-front brass remnants,
but how reliably?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by boom stick:
I am just impressed with your powerhouse! It is a great cartridge and that is one heck of an accurate load that could take out anything minus elephant.[/QUOTE

So if a 375 H+H. 300 gr bullet @ 2500 fps mv , can reliably kill elephants. With a solid. Dont u think a 360 gr Raptor @ 2850 can kill a jumbo.

The corresponding solid is 400grains, and yes, a .510" 400-grain flatnose solid at 2700fps muzzle velocity (6500ft#) would kill an elephant without a doubt. But I don't have the money or time to buy a tag and send a picture.

Just trying to keep it on the .458 theme:

The .458/480-grain Woodleigh HYDRO of brass is 1.473" long (without plastic cap) and requires 1:21" or faster twist to stabilize in air at 2300 fps.

The .395/.310-grain S&H brass HP is 1.502" long.

A .458-caliber brass hollowpoint of 1.558" length would require only about 1:20" or faster twist.
It could have a COL of 3.6" and a seating depth of 0.458" in the .458 WIN-V 3.6".

I wonder how much it would weigh if patterned after the S&H at 1.558" and just fattened up ?

With a simple flat base and multi-cannelure shape like the HYDRO, except an ogived Hollowpoint nose like the S&H,
and length of 1.558" ?

Whatever it weighs, that is the .458-caliber brass HYDRA !



Add a ballistic tip insert for single-shot loading.
The seventh head on the HYDRA:



Plumb epic:



Ulysses meets HYDRA, and I do not mean James Joyce of Dublin.

Rip ...

Hard rock music video with flying squirrel suit footage,
by Within Temptation,
song entitled
"Dangerous"
just like a .458 HYDRA bullet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...zME&feature=emb_logo

I have a new entry on my Bucket List:
Lose 100 pounds and get a flying squirrel suit.

When I am terminal, it will be a good way to go, especially if I survive and can still go meet a brown bear with a HYDRA in my .458 WIN-V.
Only then will I go feed myself to the wolves.
Last item on my Bucket List.

Next video up on youtube:
Within Temptation - Shot In The Dark (Official Music Video)

Reminds me of my tent on Kodiak, on a moonless night, with a brown bear pressing his nose against the tent wall ...
I dream of it, sweet dreams.

Rip ...

Better get started on that 100 lbs soon
100 lbs will take a while.
Will you get Berry-atric surgery?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Hard rock music video with flying squirrel suit footage,
by Within Temptation,
song entitled
"Dangerous"
just like a .458 HYDRA bullet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...zME&feature=emb_logo

I have a new entry on my Bucket List:
Lose 100 pounds and get a flying squirrel suit.

When I am terminal, it will be a good way to go, especially if I survive and can still go meet a brown bear with a HYDRA in my .458 WIN-V.
Only then will I go feed myself to the wolves.
Last item on my Bucket List.

Next video up on youtube:
Within Temptation - Shot In The Dark (Official Music Video)

Reminds me of my tent on Kodiak, on a moonless night, with a brown bear pressing his nose against the tent wall ...
I dream of it, sweet dreams.

Rip ...

With the flying squirrel suit, after falling at terminal velocity from very high altitudes having low air pressures and oxygen levels, it seems that RIP might also need some hyperBerryc oxygen treatment post-dive.

I was worried about the Armstrong Limit, about 60,000 feet (less than 1 psi atmospheric pressure) where your tears, the saliva on your tongue and the moisture in your lungs
boil at body temperature.

But then I remembered that above 40,000 feet in the altitude chamber ride with no oxygen mask I got really happy, like a barrel of monkeys, real knee-slapper it was.
I could be dangerous at the controls of my wingsuit.
Better keep it down to 39,000 feet or less for aircraft exit.

I have to get 200 free-fall jumps in before they will even let me buy a wingsuit !
And I even heard there was a 320-pound wingsuit pilot who did pretty good.
Maybe gets higher forward speed, but not as good a glide ratio.
Heck, I do not need to lose 100 pounds !
And my arm span is greater than I am tall, like wings ! Another God wink !

I will not be making my own wingsuit to circumvent the 200 parachute jumps requirement.



That guy jumped off the Eiffel Tower in the 1930s, and left an impact crater with his head.
He was a skilled tailor before that.

However, I will continue making my own 480-grain bullets. The HYDRO is $5/bullet from Woodleigh.

Rip ...

.458 WIN-V 3.6" beats SAAMI .458 Lott with the 500-gr TSX.

Rip ...

HYDRO substitute:

Behold !
The HYDRA:



Rip ...

There is no limit to the creative thinking in the Kentucky woods. A file and a drill. You can join Saeed in the creation of your own bullet! I like the 480 x-tsx FNFB. Minimal expanded. The "Bastard" version of a cup point solid.

How about drilling a hole in the side to the cavity so when it spins in flight it whistles to warn the animal of an incoming shot for your next prank on a hunt?

And since the bullet is traveling 2.5 x the speed of sound, the only time Mr. Bovine would hear it is when it hits him!