Good thinking, RIP.

It makes me think of .416" parallels, too.

An SD of .300-.305 would mean about 370 grains in .416".

So a 370 grain HV or a Hammer, should either be developed, could be sent along at 2725fps (in a Rigby).
Yeah, I could hunt with that.

But if I fit it into the Ruger that I want to get someday, then I would have to settle for 2500fps.
Yeah, I could hunt with that, too. But a lighter all-around bullet would be nicer, maybe a 330 gn GSC HV at 2600-2625 fps.

416Tanzan,

Buy a donkey for your support of THE MISSION.
Indubitably a .416/370-gr Soft Point at 2500 fps from a .416 Ruger would be the cat's meow.
I used a .416/380-gr GSC FN

at just over 2500 fps MV (.416 Rigby) on my first cape buffalo,
and it was a one-shot kill that also bucked like a rodeo bull when the bullet hit.
Just like the one that took a .510/450-grain HV at just over 2650 fps MV.

That .416 Ruger should be almost as good as taking a holstered attack dog along on your daily stroll.



I just can't help thinking that the .458/450-grainer at +2400 fps MV (any 3.6" rifle) or a .458/400-grainer at +2500 fps MV (any 3.4" rifle),
also would do equally well,
or dare I say better, when all elements of reality are weighed into the balance ?

Rip ...

Seems I find the "ultimate" bullet quite often at GSC.
The ultimate .458/500-gr FN solid is another one of those.

http://www.gscustomusa.com/458500FN089.html



Bullet length = 1.470"
The technical data at GSC even lists a minimum and maximum bullet protrusion:

Minimum bullet protrusion of 0.680": COL = 3.180", that is with all drive bands inside the 2.5" .458 WIN case, and crimped at the base of the conical ogive.
Why not use a LEE FACTORY CRIMP ?
The base of conical ogive also engraves (barely bearing on the rifling), but here we will number driving bands from one to six only below that "pseudo-driving band."

Maximum bullet protrusion of 1.220": COL = 3.720", that is with only two of the six drive bands barely inside the case mouth, no crimp,
or FACTORY LEE CRIMP, your choice.

Intermediate: ...

Bullet protrusion of 1.100": COL = 3.600", that is with three of the six drive bands barely inside the case mouth, LEE FACTORY CRIMP.

Bullet protrusion of 1.054": COL = 3.554", crimp midway between the third and fourth drive bands, LEE FACTORY CRIMP.

Bullet protrusion of 1.016": COL = 3.516", crimp against bottom of third drive band, LEE FACTORY CRIMP.

Bullet protrusion of 0.900": COL = 3.400", crimp against bottom of second drive band, LEE FACTORY CRIMP.

Bullet protrusion of 0.785": COL = 3.285", crimp against bottom of first drive band, LEE FACTORY CRIMP.

Pick velocity desired from 2150 fps to 2350 fps, for isobaric loads of differing COL.

I'll go with a nice low-pressure load of this 500-grainer at 3.554" COL, and 2250 fps.
That will make for enough Whomp on both ends of the rifle.
That's superior to any classic .450 NE through .470 NE loads as far as velocity and KE.
The .458 WIN is OVERKILL !
I might even want to slow it down a little more, for shooter comfort.

"BUT HOW DOES IT FEED IN A BOLT ACTION ?"

Rip ...

From the recent Cogswell & Harrison Certus thread at this forum,
I found the ultimate iron sight for a .458 WIN.
"The Ultimate" theme is synonymous with the .458 Winchester Magnum in every way:





All folds flat on that rear sight, to get out of the way of a supplementary/primary peep, if it were at all possible on that weird rifle,
ugly as a Blaser !
That C&H Certus rifle is a ".450 EX." and it may use .450 NE 3.25" brass, but it was not proofed for full Nitro Express.
The Certus is not only THE UGLY SISTER, it is also THE WEAK SISTER !
At least C&H got the sights correct,
about 56 years before birth of THE ULTIMATE,
the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

A Lee-Speed 303 British rifle's rear sight has the 100-yard leaf fixed, won't fold down.
I wonder if any of the folding ones could remain standing with .458 WIN recoil ?

Rip
I can claim carrying the 458wm and a holstered attack Cat! Does that make the grade? He’s a tuft eared now solid body rescued from the middle of a 4 lane highway when he was nothing but eyes and ears, and we named him Komrade Mosin. Like my 458wm he is ready to go any where and do anything I want to do.

A cat that follows directions - I'd like to see that.

Even the rear dog in the pic doesn't reassure me. Trussed up like that and made to listen to high-intensity rifle fire a yard away, that might be just the one to bite its oppressor on the ass - when it gets the chance.

A Krieghoff O/U .458 WIN went to Africa in 1972 with my friend, xausa.
He wrote an article about that for DER WAFFENSCHMIED, the journal of the GGCA.

That would be the .458 WIN with the cape buffalo above.

Rip ...

.458 WIN:

.458 WIN:



94 pounds of ivory in one tusk.
"Close but no cigar" says Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip
I can claim carrying the 458wm and a holstered attack Cat! Does that make the grade? He’s a tuft eared now solid body rescued from the middle of a 4 lane highway when he was nothing but eyes and ears, and we named him Komrade Mosin. Like my 458wm he is ready to go any where and do anything I want to do.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
A cat that follows directions - I'd like to see that.

Even the rear dog in the pic doesn't reassure me. Trussed up like that and made to listen to high-intensity rifle fire a yard away, that might be just the one to bite its oppressor on the ass - when it gets the chance.

That is what the muzzles are for.

Kitty goes to war:

Mine has to do with an Alice pack... after all he is Mosin. Much like Stalingrad; as second man in the stack, he has to wait for me not to need my rifle any longer.

Great Grandpa and Grandpa, both still going strong:





All roads lead to the .458 Winchester Magnum by way of the .404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express.

Rip ...

Rip,
something new to me - slide action .458 Win Mag!
Krieghoff Catalog for new goodies!
Check out the Big 5 series:
https://www.krieghoff.com/wp-c...alogue_semprio-2.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Rip,
something new to me - slide action .458 Win Mag!
Krieghoff Catalog for new goodies!
Check out the Big 5 series:
https://www.krieghoff.com/wp-c...alogue_semprio-2.pdf

Is this the Tiger Tank of the Pump guns? A real killer as long as the Transmission doesn't break? Lot of moving weight here.

crshelton,

Are you teasing me ?
We have looked at the Semprio before.
I love a pump shotgun.
That would be a heck of a lot better than a Blaser, faster repeater too.
Of course being careful to avoid full leather wrap of stock, thumbhole stock, and any other undesirable features.
But there is no .458 WinMag listed in that catalog.
I cannot tell whether a gunsmith can rebarrel one of those from .300 WIN to .458 WIN but barrels are interchangeable amongst the factory offerings ...

The 94# tusk:





"Close but no cigar" says Bill.

Rip ...

The Big 5 guns all the way to the end of the catalog. .458, 416 Ruger, and something else.

Also, click on FIT TO PAGE so right hand of screen shows too.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
... That is what the muzzles are for...

Yes Ron, good while in the holster, like a strap over the hammer - but what good is an attack dog if let go with muzzle still on?

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
The Big 5 guns all the way to the end of the catalog. .458, 416 Ruger, and something else.

Thanks.
It must have been my Blaserphobia that made me stop looking at that pdf too soon,
and I do recall the Semprio, which my Blaserphobia suppressed into my subconscious.
But now I am receptive to the idea, of the Semprio Big Five, offered standard in .458 WIN,
.416 Ruger and .375 Ruger available by special request.

It is different enough from a Blaser and undoubtedly faster shooting.
Don't have to work a bolt handle at all.
Just pump that trombone, faster than a semi-auto in the proper hands.
I might have to take a rattail rasp to the forend to make circumferential finger grooves around the forend to bring out my old pump shotgun muscle memory,
developed by years of duck, goose, dove, deer, rabbit and squirrel hunting with my Marlin Model 120 pump, and a Winchester Model 12 with similar grooved forend.

Krieghoff's Semprio Big Five .458 Winchester Magnum, the standard by which all other DGR cartridges are judged: ~22" barrel, 9.9 lbs



That's a left-hand Semprio Big Five above,
right-hand Semprio below.

Lesser calibers available too: 22" standard carts., 25" magnum carts., weight about 7.5 lbs



Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
... That is what the muzzles are for...

Yes Ron, good while in the holster, like a strap over the hammer - but what good is an attack dog if let go with muzzle still on?

Specially engineered, ripcord dog release,
drops dog and when dog is 10 feet from Rifleman-Dogpacker, and moving out fast, the breakaway muzzle comes off.
Dogs are well trained to hit the ground charging forward when dropped.
Pavlovian for sure.

Rip ...

I wonder Rip; if John Q public can pump about 5 pounds of barrel, forearm and another 1.5 pound of scope that distance, faster than Fin Aagard could flick the bolt on Win 70 or Mauser 98 458WM? I'm thinking; "nope."

Yep; the IDF has the Mobile Holstered Attack dog plan down pat.

Don't forget, a lot of hunting in Germany is done from elevated blinds (Hochsitzen), where the weight of a weapon is relatively unimportant.

Granted, this is unlikely to happen with a large bore Magnum caliber rifle like a .458 WM, but if a hunter is already the user of such a rifle in a caliber suitable for European game, it might be expected that he would choose the familiar basic weapon for Africa.

I have rarely seen anyone, outside of high power target rifle shooters, who can manipulate a bolt action with a speed equivalent to that of a slide action, which takes virtually no training and practice to master.

That said, I certainly would not want to arm myself with an action, clearly based on an AR-15 style bolt, and therefore incapable of primary extraction, if faced with a situation where total reliability was a prerequisite..

I also value the Pump. I shot International Skeet with a Winchester 1200 and have Rem 760 that is very fast as well. However, neither of them is moving the Barrel, forearm and all the rest of the gear within it. I would guess the reciprocating weight of a 760 at about a pound. Same for Winchester 1200. Guessing that 458WM Krieghoff at 5-6 pounds of reciprocating weight wouldn't you say? And that weight is also climbing in recoil while you pump. The old 1200 was as fast as an Auto loader. Gave up no speed to the 1100's.

https://www.americanhunter.org...io-in-line-repeater/

Dieter Krieghoff on video above from 2015, American Hunter/NRA site.
Field & Stream from 2011:

https://www.fieldandstream.com...g-game-rifle-part-i/

The recoil moving the back half of the rifle rearward while it unlocks with the forearm-gripping hand pushing forward ...
that is like recoil-operated semi-semi-auto.

For speed in pulling the rifle back together for next shot, no heavy scope, just iron sights or little red-dot optic.

It's fast, even if the trombone slide is a little heavy.

xausa's comment about the tiny extractor and plunger ejector do give pause.

It is a push-pull feed !
The bolt heads, magazines, and barrels are interchangeable.
Push a button and the rifle falls apart into two pieces.
Then the bolt head comes off, and the barrel too,
no tools ?

I would love to have one in .458 WIN anyway, just for the feather in the hat aspect of it.
Real panache, far exceeding the imaginations of Blaser owners.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Specially engineered, ripcord dog release,
drops dog and when dog is 10 feet from Rifleman-Dogpacker, and moving out fast, the breakaway muzzle comes off.
Dogs are well trained to hit the ground charging forward when dropped.
Pavlovian for sure.

Rip ...

Sounds good, as long as dog remembers who he is supposed to hate

Cheers
- Pavlov

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I also value the Pump. I shot International Skeet with a Winchester 1200 and have Rem 760 that is very fast as well. However, neither of them is moving the Barrel, forearm and all the rest of the gear within it. I would guess the reciprocating weight of a 760 at about a pound. Same for Winchester 1200. Guessing that 458WM Krieghoff at 5-6 pounds of reciprocating weight wouldn't you say? And that weight is also climbing in recoil while you pump. The old 1200 was as fast as an Auto loader. Gave up no speed to the 1100's.

My first skeet gun was a Skeet model Model 12 Winchester. It had no sear interrupter, so if you held the trigger back and pumped, it would fire as soon as the breech block locked.

In a speed contest with autoloaders, the Model 12's won hands down. The skeet gun is gone, but I still have a Model 12 riot gun with the same characteristics, and a case of buckshot shells to go with it.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I also value the Pump. I shot International Skeet with a Winchester 1200 and have Rem 760 that is very fast as well. However, neither of them is moving the Barrel, forearm and all the rest of the gear within it. I would guess the reciprocating weight of a 760 at about a pound. Same for Winchester 1200. Guessing that 458WM Krieghoff at 5-6 pounds of reciprocating weight wouldn't you say? And that weight is also climbing in recoil while you pump. The old 1200 was as fast as an Auto loader. Gave up no speed to the 1100's.

My first skeet gun was a Skeet model Model 12 Winchester. It had no sear interrupter, so if you held the trigger back and pumped, it would fire as soon as the breech block locked.

In a speed contest with autoloaders, the Model 12's won hands down. The skeet gun is gone, but I still have a Model 12 riot gun with the same characteristics, and a case of buckshot shells to go with it.

Then we are Brothers Sir.

The Pump Brothers, me too !
Traded my 20 Ga single-shot from Sears and Roebuck as boot toward a Marlin Model 120 pump with three different barrels (3" chambers),
still had it 20 years later when it went to Kodiak Island.
Still have it now, all steel and a little clunkier and heavier than a WIN Model 12.

I decided this must be a "Winchester Model 12 Riot" after I bought it because it looked so dang cool.
It resembles my Marlin 120 when I put the slug barrel on it, the Marlin was obviously styled after the Winchester.
My Marlin is well worn.
This Winchester 12 looks like new:



It fires at the end of each pump cycle as long as the trigger is held down, until the magazine is empty.

Bill,
Is this the same "Riot" as your gun ?

Mine was made the same year as the African .458 WIN was released upon the world.
I was wondering if mine was factory restocked/refinished and rifle sights installed as a sort of custom deal,
or is it just a near perfect regular "Winchester Model 12 Riot" ?

I will not be ringing that forearm with a rattail rasp, like I did to the Marlin 120.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Specially engineered, ripcord dog release,
drops dog and when dog is 10 feet from Rifleman-Dogpacker, and moving out fast, the breakaway muzzle comes off.
Dogs are well trained to hit the ground charging forward when dropped.
Pavlovian for sure.

Rip ...

Sounds good, as long as dog remembers who he is supposed to hate

Cheers
- Pavlov

OK, I made that up, but this dog would be insulted by your distrust:



He is to attack dogs as the .458 WIN is to Dangerous Game Rifles.
Gotta stay ON MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I wonder Rip; if John Q public can pump about 5 pounds of barrel, forearm and another 1.5 pound of scope that distance, faster than Fin Aagard could flick the bolt on Win 70 or Mauser 98 458WM? I'm thinking; "nope.".

With a Semprio .458 WIN,
all you gotta do is go with the flow,
recoil aids the opening of the slide action,
then just pressing the rifle to the shoulder closes the slide.
Near effortless.
Hands never move from rifle,
rifle never leaves shoulder,
rifle just oscillates in recoil,
to and fro staying pointed at target,
eyes on target,
"semi-full-auto."
Sure beats a Blaser for speed,
and every other way.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:



He is to attack dogs as the .458 WIN is to Dangerous Game Rifles.
Gotta stay ON MISSION.

Rip ...

Cool

Rip,
I think your model 12 must be someones favorite Hunting Slug gun. I'll bet it's a dandy too. I'm not an expert but have never seen a 12 with those sites. The Riot guns were single bead. Military had Heat shield hand-guards and a bayonet lug.
I think that the only thing Phil's Old Ugly is lacking is a Bayonet Lug. Pretty sure Phil knows how to use that tool as well.

Just as I thought, a one-off, customized Model 12 safe queen, with no "collector value."

Rip ...

If one had to stick with one hunting bullet,
one could do worse than the Barnes TSX 450-grainer.
Pair it with a 450-grain FN solid North Fork, etc.)
whether in .458 WIN, .450 Dakota, or 460 Wby.
+ 2400 fps with all of that spectrum of chamberings.

An excellent target bullet capable of one-hole accuracy:



Rip ...

quote:

Bill,
Is this the same "Riot" as your gun ?

Mine was made the same year as the African .458 WIN was released upon the world.
I was wondering if mine was factory restocked/refinished and rifle sights installed as a sort of custom deal,
or is it just a near perfect regular "Winchester Model 12 Riot" ?

I will not be ringing that forearm with a rattail rasp, like I did to the Marlin 120.

Rip ...

My riot gun has no rifle type sighting equipment. What it does have is the letters "FPD" (for "Franklin [TN] Police Department) stenciled in white paint on the butt plate.
It is essentially a short barrel Model 12 with an unplugged magazine, allowing a full load of seven cartridges.