Page 87 of pages 75-88:



Book review: THE DOUBLE GUN JOURNAL, Summer 2004 is outstanding in its field.

Look at the close-up of the bosses above with cartridge lying on buffalo's right boss.
There's hair between those bosses.
Did somebody airbrush the hair from between the bosses of that buffalo in the grand pose above?
Why bother?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Mike must have missed the intended "Heym Express vs. Sako 85" thread with this reply:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
How much of the case rim does a CRF extractor actually cover as compared to say a Howa or M16.

With a proper M98 about 1/4 of the rim circumference is acted upon.
How much would you say the others grab ?

I say "actual" because part of the blade is not actual extractor.

But most of the true-M98 claw is actually pulling on the rim in extraction.

Also, I have often wondered with a Push Feed what effect the "twisting" on the case rim has as the bolt is opened. I do know on Rem 700s that did not have the riveted extractor that on a hot load the bolt would rotate around the extractor so if riveted there would have been a twisting effect on the case.

Not much twisting if not Mauser-CRE, more like just some scratching around in the extractor groove of the case.
See Heym/Sako thread.

Rip ...

No way Ron is a quarter of the rim covered by CRF extractor.

On top of that have ammo with protruding primer or burrs on the case rim or fucked dimensions on rim and/or groove diameter and "big fuck up"

I still remember the Hirtenberg (spelling?) 270 stuff we had in Australia in the 1960s. Completely fucked up in M17s and M98s but not Sakos.

Sakos as Push Feeds worked.

In short, CRF needs top class ammo.

Ross is my favorite writer of things gun and I am the forgiving type, having much to be forgiven for myself, and I know how one can be trapped by ink on paper from transitory thought.
Thus I offer a welcome to Ross into our club of rational thought concerning the mighty 458WM and its position in the ranks of highly effective killing cartridges.
As a sidebar to this welcome, I would mention that like in all things boiled or heated to purity, Ross simply is the kind of shooter you want on Your team. He is welcome on mine.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Ross is my favorite writer of things gun and I am the forgiving type, having much to be forgiven for myself, and I know how one can be trapped by ink on paper from transitory thought.
Thus I offer a welcome to Ross into our club of rational thought concerning the mighty 458WM and its position in the ranks of highly effective killing cartridges.
As a sidebar to this welcome, I would mention that like in all things boiled or heated to purity, Ross simply is the kind of shooter you want on Your team. He is welcome on mine.

AMEN, Brother !

Rip ...

Mike,

I really do not know the answer to your questions, not having done the precise measurements of extractors
nor the experiments with boltface extractors for observations of those pushfeed actions' extractions on initial bolt turning to unlock from battery.

I merely referred to Stuart Otteson, extract on the Heym/Sako thread, about the Mauser M98:

"A long, massive, hardened and tempered spring-steel extractor is mounted along the outside of the bolt. The claw is strong and wide, gripping almost one-fourth of the case rim ...
(and so on and so on about the undercut/beveled extractor tongue & groove for controlled-round-extraction, etc.)
... A seldom-appreciated advantage of the Mauser extractor is that the wide spring-steel claw achieves its strength with a very thin-sectioned head. Thus it doesn't utilize the entire cannelure (cannelure meaning extracor groove between the rim and head of the cartridge), and the cartridge can be seated extra deep in the chamber."

Since you offered the opportunity, I figured I could goad you into making another reply for THE MISSION.
I was as successful at that as Ross Seyfried was in killing a cape buffalo with a single shot of sub-.458-WIN ballistics with a cast boollit:


Just working MY SCHTICK.

Rip ...

Ross Seyfried and I are working the same schtick, the .458 Winchester Magnum schtick.
He gets the heavy end of the schtick, the .458 WIN as loser, which is a ponderous oxymoron.
I get the light end of the schtick, the .458 WIN victorious, which is no effort to carry at all.
Light as the sunbeam of truth.

Rip ...

Light is the Sunbeam of Truth. Indeed Sir! Indeed!
Carry on.

I was always an admirer of George Gibbs Farquharson rifles but that DGJ article cemented my resolve to one day have a genuine 461 Gibbs sporting rifle!
Hopefully, soon I will have another one completed with the oh so gorgeous Selous plates as Ross's rifle has. This one may end up with a .450" bore (as that is the only Metford rifled barrel I have) which, in a way, would make it even more closely related to the 458WM and quite a lot like a 500/450 No.2 Musket with a longer neck. Maybe call it a 500/450 No.2 Long Rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
I was always an admirer of George Gibbs Farquharson rifles but that DGJ article cemented my resolve to one day have a genuine 461 Gibbs sporting rifle!

WHAT ! HUVIUS DOES NOT OWN A GENUINE 461 GIBBS SPORTING RIFLE ?
I THOUGHT HE HAD ONE OR TWO OF ALL THOSE TO-DIE-FOR PIECES !

Hopefully, soon I will have another one completed with the oh so gorgeous Selous plates as Ross's rifle has.

QUITE REMARKABLE, A VERY DESIRABLE THING !

This one may end up with a .450" bore (as that is the only Metford rifled barrel I have) which, in a way, would make it even more closely related to the 458WM and quite a lot like a 500/450 No.2 Musket with a longer neck. Maybe call it a 500/450 No.2 Long Rifle.

Huvius,

Very cool project.
Why not just call it a .450 Gibbs No. 2 ?

Who made your .450-bore, to-die-for, non-fouling/self-cleaning Metford-rifled barrel ?
Paper patches do help, eh ?

That article by Seyfried in TDGJ, about the .461 Gibbs No. 2 safari, was like an epic poem, hardly mere prose.
Cape buffalo, kudu, warthog, ostrich at ranges from 65 yards to 400 yards.
But he was most poetic about the rifle.

He did give an estimate that about 35 original rifles like that were made, with Selous Plates,
and that 1885 was the very good year for his rifle.
He didn't say how he came by it, if he owned it, or it was on loan.
I would trade any one or more of my paired organs to own one of those originals.
I have surmised that sometimes a collector will have Ross Seyfried work up a load to get the original shooting like originally,
and Ross gets to write about it, and/or buy it !
I guess he would have given a left testicle for it if necessary.

Seyfried: "The rifle was the product of three great men, the epitome of all things a rifle might be in 1885, the epitome of all things a rifle might be ... EVER!
The men were George Gibbs, W.E. Metford and F.C. Selous. This 8-pound bit of wood and steel was the melding of some of the greatest minds and hands that ever touched a rifle:
the great gunmaker, the barrel-making genius and the hunter's hunter. Each among them a specialist in their field, but perhaps equally important, each among them a highly skilled rifleman.
I wish we could know the thought processes, the conversations, the negotiations that went into this rifle.
As it is, perhaps we can look at the rifle and imagine what the men must have thought to produce it."

Trigger was described as crisp and with a weight of 3 pounds.

The Metford rifling was described as "rounded, segmental, shallow ... actually looking worn out when brand new."

Picture of Metford rifling pattern below, for the .303 British, compared to Henry, on the Martini-Henry, both .577/450 MH and .303:



Barrel length was not specified by Seyfried, nor twist specifics other than "gain" twist used on his .461 Gibbs No. 2 "Original."
A resort to Wal Winfer's volume on Gibbs might show a twin of this rifle and some more specifics.

Rip ...

Interesting stuff, Ron, but if I can be like a dog with a bone, what was your thought on the possibility of using 458WM long-COLs in a Lott, if the need arose?

Oh, I have a fantastic 461 No.2 sporting rifle!
I bought mine out of Germany in 2009. The 2004 DGJ article just helped to focus my attention to acquiring one.
At the time, I thought there was not a cooler rifle than that Gibbs - still feel that way!
The one I have with the Selous plates I bought a few years ago. It had been rebarreled but the action and butt stock are all original other than the action was blacked at some point.
The Metford barrel I pulled from a large action Webley '02 that had been converted to a long range match rifle. That gun became a 500NE so I have a heavy .450 barrel waiting to be turned down to the Gibbs sporter profile.
It was said to be a Ron Snover barrel but I can't say for sure.
What I really want to do is replicate, as best can be done, F.C. Selous' personal rifle.
It had "450EX" stamped on the barrel - not sure why that is but there are a couple 461s around that way.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Interesting stuff, Ron, but if I can be like a dog with a bone, what was your thought on the possibility of using 458WM long-COLs in a Lott, if the need arose?

Paul,
Sorry I saw that earlier and got distracted.
Of course you can fire .458 Win.Mag. OR .458 WIN-V LongCOL in a .458 Lott, ONLY IN A PINCH.
I.E., if no .458 Lott ammo is available and there is an urgent need to shoot something.
But it is a sorry "routine" practice because of the extra 0.3" length of chamber that is over 48-caliber.
Too much wiggle room for the back end of the bullet as it engages the rifling in the throat.
Accuracy and velocity will suffer and excessive erosion of the Lott chamber occurs due to the shorter brass releasing "fire in the hole" in the wrong place.

Rip ...

Huvius,

I see,
"that DGJ article cemented my resolve to one day have a genuine 461 Gibbs sporting rifle"
meant that your "one day" occurred in 2009 when the rifle arrived from Germany.
Belated congratulations to you.

About those barrel markings, yes, Wal Winfer says the .461 Gibbs barrels of the day were always stamped ".450"
and many .450-caliber rifles using .458-caliber bullets were stamped ".440."
Winfer: "Although Selous did call the Gibbs .461 cartridge a .450 on several occasions, we can forgive him
for that little mistake, for the cartridges are so close in bullet diameter, .461 as against .458, that he is almost correct ..."

Ross Seyfried's article did a superb job of describing the .461 Gibbs No. 2 loading.
It was a fairly direct transition from Gibbs-Metford muzzleloader to Gibbs-Metford BPCR.
Same bullets, same barrels.

Paper-patched bullet diameter is .461".
Metford barrel bore diameter is also 0.461".
Metford barrel groove diameter is 0.472".
The .461 Gibbs rifles have tight chamber necks.
Seyfried: "The largest bullet diameter, that can be used in the cases (and still fit in the chamber) is .461 inch--.462 inch."

The rear one third of the bullet bumps up to fill the grooves, with paper and lead !
The cylindrical portion of the bullet ahead of that remained bore size, paper-wrapped lead, and acted as a bore-rider nose with minimal friction.
The paper also wiped the bore of powder fouling with each shot.
I imagine the bumping up at the rear of the bullet might aid the shedding of the paper jacket at muzzle exit,
as the increasing twist rate from breech to muzzle was also said to do.

So the naked lead bullet of the .461 Gibbs might be 0.006" -- 0.008" smaller than 0.461" -- 0.462".
That would be somewhere around 0.453" -- 0.456" for the lead bullet diameter, before paper patch was applied.

Ross Seyfried: "The Metford bullet alloy was not unlike modern wheel weights. I find that bullets as soft as 1:40 and as hard as 1:20 (tin/lead) will work perfectly and give outstanding accuracy."
He proved that 1:20 was good, on the .461 Gibbs No. 2 Safari.

So a .450 Gibbs No. 2 use a 1:20 bullet of .442" -- .444" diameter, paper-patched up to 0.450" diameter.
Then use about 100 grains of GOEX Cartridge (lacking Trebel Strong #6 these days) to bump it up to groove diameter.
That groove diameter in Metford rifling might be 0.461" if it is 0.011" greater than bore diameter as with the .472"/.461" original.

Call it the .461/450 Gibbs-Huvius No. 2.
Hopefully with a bullet of about 570 grains.

Selous started his small-bore-big-five hunting with a .461 Gibbs No. 1 using 540 grains of bullet and 90 grains of Trebel Strong #6.
1350 fps MV with that combo is what they say.

The .461 Gibbs No. 1 did with a 540-grainer what the .461 Gibbs No. 2 did with a 570-grainer.

In fact, the shorter No. 1 could equal the longer No. 2, by LongCOL loading of the No. 1.

That's a lott like the comparison of the .458 WIN-V-3.6" to the .458 Lott-3.6",
except the WIN beats the Lott in the latter comparison.


Rip ...

That .461 Gibbs system is at its best with paper patched 1:20 lead bullets of .461"-diameter, 540 -- 570 grain weight, Metford rifling,
black powder and a longish barrel around 27.5"-- 33" long, for to better burn that charcoal-based powder and give sight radius of about 2 feet.
Sporting rifle barrel sights are way out on the long and light barrel.

The .458 WIN cast-bullet loads are at their best with .461"-diameter bullets for smokeless powders,
in most .458 Win.Mag. rifles.
But almost any bullet of .459" -- 461" will shoot accurately in the .458 Win.Mag. if velocity is slowed down to sub-1400 fps MV, with smokeless loads,
in most .458 Win.Mag. rifles.

Instead of bumping up not-too-hard lead in the .461 Gibbs,
we bump down harder lead in the .458 Win.Mag.

Marcella Ultima Winchester-McGowen,
iron-sighted, will be very similar to a .461 Gibbs "Selous Rifle" in two important user-interface parameters:

Weight: 8 pounds (7#15oz)
Iron-sight radius: 27.5 inches with receiver sight on 23" barrel.

Same MV and bullet weight will produce lighter recoil with the lighter charge of smokeless powder required.
Harder alloy bullet and higher velocity may allow tuning the load to duplicate Selous Rifle recoil for better Rifle User Simulation Experience: RUSE

8# rifle, 570-gr bullet, 1350 fps, 90 grains BP,
or 100 grains for stalwart Ross ...

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
That .461 Gibbs system is at its best with paper patched 1:20 lead bullets of .461"-diameter, 540 -- 570 grain weight, Metford rifling,
black powder and a longish barrel around 27.5"-- 33" long, for to better burn that charcoal-based powder and give sight radius of about 2 feet.
Sporting rifle barrel sights are way out on the long and light barrel.

The .458 WIN cast-bullet loads are at their best with .461"-diameter bullets for smokeless powders,
in most .458 Win.Mag. rifles.
But almost any bullet of .459" -- 461" will shoot accurately in the .458 Win.Mag. if velocity is slowed down to sub-1400 fps MV, with smokeless loads,
in most .458 Win.Mag. rifles.

Instead of bumping up not-too-hard lead in the .461 Gibbs,
we bump down harder lead in the .458 Win.Mag.

Marcella Ultima Winchester-McGowen,
iron-sighted, will be very similar to a .461 Gibbs "Selous Rifle" in two important user-interface parameters:

Weight: 8 pounds (7#15oz)
Iron-sight radius: 27.5 inches with receiver sight on 23" barrel.

Same MV and bullet weight will produce lighter recoil with the lighter charge of smokeless powder required.
Harder alloy bullet and higher velocity may allow tuning the load to duplicate Selous Rifle recoil for better Rifle User Simulation Experience: RUSE

8# rifle, 570-gr bullet, 1350 fps, 90 grains BP,
or 100 grains for stalwart Ross ...

Rip ...

I have only ever done cast bullets for the 308 and that was a Sako that had the 1 in 12 twist. I used the 130 grain gas check Lee and bought three of them as I figured it would be like other reloading compoenets etc. and one would be the best and that was the case.

What I found was accuracy was very influenced by pressure. I got excellent accuracy with Reloader 7, maybe 27 grains from memory. Velocity just under 2300 f/s. However, with the fast Hercules powders like 2400 and faster accuracy was at much lower velocity.

I tried an experiment and used a full case of Win 760 and obviously with 130 grain bullets extremely low pressure. Velocity was 2600 f/s, a bit below and a bit above. Shot less than 3" at 100 yards.

Based on that experience I had if I was to try cast bullets in a 458 and wanted a combination of maximum velocity with best accuracy I would first try the slowest powders that would get me the velocity. With 500 grainer maybe a compressed load of 4350 or maybe Re 15 or whatever but powders that would be regarded as normally too slow for the 458.

Mike,

Excellent idea.
I have often heard about pressure being the gauge for hardness of alloy chosen and being a limiting factor for accuracy with cast bullets.
I will try it.
A full case with a slower powder versus AA-2460 with filler.
Choosing AA-2460 over AA-2230 is already a move in the direction of lower pressure for same charge weight, but will require filler.
The full case of slow powder is not as close to a 100%-burn, however, wastes more powder.

In an 8-pound rifle with 570-gr bullet at 1350 fps MV:

Selous would have recoil of 56.4 ft-lbs X 21.3 fps with 90 grains of Trebel Strong #6.

Seyfried would have recoil of 60.9 ft-lbs X 22.1 fps with 100 grains of GOEX Cartridge.

So my Selous RUSE goal for Marcella will be a load with roughly 60 ft-lbs X 22 fps.

For comparison, in Marcella Ultima Winchester-McGowen the Hornady 500-grain DGX factory loads give about 78.1 ft-lbs X 25.1 fps.
That is about 30% greater free-recoil energy with the standard factory load than with the Selous RUSE load.
Or, the Selous RUSE load allows about a 23% reduction of free-recoil energy compared to the standard 500-gr factory load.
Still satisfyingly lively.

Rip ...

Nietzsche in Ecce Homo:

"To get up in the morning, in the fullness of youth, and open a book -- now that's what I call vicious!"

Rip at AR.com:

To sit at a 'puter on New Year's Eve, in the fullness of curmudgeonhood, and type about the .458 Winchester Magnum -- now that's what I call vicious!

Happy New Year !

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Interesting stuff, Ron, but if I can be like a dog with a bone, what was your thought on the possibility of using 458WM long-COLs in a Lott, if the need arose?

Paul,
Sorry I saw that earlier and got distracted.
Of course you can fire .458 Win.Mag. OR .458 WIN-V LongCOL in a .458 Lott, ONLY IN A PINCH.
I.E., if no .458 Lott ammo is available and there is an urgent need to shoot something.
But it is a sorry "routine" practice because of the extra 0.3" length of chamber that is over 48-caliber.
Too much wiggle room for the back end of the bullet as it engages the rifling in the throat.
Accuracy and velocity will suffer and excessive erosion of the Lott chamber occurs due to the shorter brass releasing "fire in the hole" in the wrong place.

Rip ...

Thanks Ron, I'll try not to do it then. Have a great year!

Ron,

My feeling was pressure was the key.

Although I never did it I would feel very confident that I could get accuracy at higher velocities in a 300 Winchester than a 308 and higher in a 220 Swift or better a 22/243 then you could get from a 222 etc.

However, one thing we know from some pages back from "sharpsguy" is a 500 grain at 1300 f/s or so will take care of all shooting business. The458 can d the 1300 f/s at very low pressure.

I do know with 400 grain Speer at 2000 f/s I have shot more red roos, pigs and goats than the number of prairie (spelling?) dogs the average American has seen.

In short Ron, you can do it all with the 458.

Based on my experience I reckon "sharpsguy" would have a better "hit to shot ratio" on your prairie dogs and woodchucks (is that the right spelling and right animal) than most shooters with a 22/250 etc.

HEAR HERE:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
In short Ron, you can do it all with the 458.

Mike,
I always knew you were of high IQ.
Yep, prairie dogs and woodchucks aka groundhogs. Perfect fare for some Selous RUSE loads.
Your 400-grainer at 2000 fps with smokeless in the .458 Win.Mag. is about perfect
for replicating the recoil levels of the .461 Gibbs No. 2 "Express" load in an 8-pound rifle.
My 543-grainer pushed along by H4350 should be great at replicating the recoil level of the 570-grain BP load
that Seyfried used for cape buffalo.
I'll get with it.

A review of what Wal Winfer said about the original BP loads in the Gibbs .461 rifles:

.461 Gibbs No. 1 (2.35" case)

ORIGINAL LOAD:
From sometime after 1871, it copied the .577/450 MH load for bullet weight and MV,
480-gr RN-PP bullet, 85 gr of BP, ~1300 fps MV

FIRST SMALL-BORE SAFARI LOADS OF SELOUS:
Circa 1880,
540-gr RN-PP bullet, 75 gr of BP, ???? fps MV
360-gr HP-PP bullet, 90 gr of BP, ???? fps MV

OTHER MATCH/SPORTING LOADS:
Circa 1882
570-gr RN-PP bullet, with 90 gr of BP, must have been about 1350 fps MV using LongCOL loading and/or powder compression?
Circa 1894
570-gr Hardened copper/brass-coated RN bullet and 80 gr of BP, ???? fps MV
(Yes some say copper-coated and Wal Winfer actually said brass-coated one time in his Gibbs book.)

.461 Gibbs No.2 (2.75" case)

It differed from the No. 1 only in 0.4"-longer neck.
The longer neck was used for wads and keeping the shorter 480-grain Military Match bullets nearer to the rifling,
without wads intruding into powder space below neck.
Also to allow use of the 100-gr BP charge with 360-gr HP with no or less powder compression.
Therefore, the longer neck was said to be an improvement.
570-gr RN-PP bullet, 90 gr of BP, ~1350 fps MV (no powder compression)
360-gr HP-PP bullet, 100 gr of BP, ~1700 fps MV

The velocities quoted above are from Wal Winfer.
Barrel length was not specified with those velocities,
but lengths of barrels were 27.5" to 33" in other descriptions of sporting rifle.
Match rifles might have 36", heavier barrels.
The 2.35" case and the 2.75" case both delivered same ballistics.
Compression of BP by only 0.4" would be easy.
No wonder that both No.1 and No.2 Gibbs .461 rifles could use 570-gr bullets with 90 grains of BP.
Loading the 570-gr paper-patched bullet to longer COL would mean little or no compression in the shorter case.
Sound familiar ?

An 8-pound, iron-sighted .458 WIN-V-3.6" rifle with 23" barrel and 27.5" sight radius
will do a good job at Selous RUSE loads,
based on recoil levels of the loads (with velocities stated) above, from an 8-pound Gibbs .461.

Rip ...

Col. Whelen would seem to agree with sambarman338:



Filing and polishing a 45-degree angle on the top of the NECG patridge with brass face should be easy enough.



Rip ...

It doesn’t take too much angle to catch some light. Nothing wrong with 45 but the sight you have slope is enough for me. Too much light on the front sight is why target shooters black their front.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
It doesn’t take too much angle to catch some light. Nothing wrong with 45 but the sight you have slope is enough for me. Too much light on the front sight is why target shooters black their front.

Dennis,

Just humoring Paul.
I will have to get another patridge from NECG if I experiment with filing a more acute angle on the tip.
The one I have will be left with current angle.
Yep, it collects enough light from overhead, no matter which direction you point it outdoors,
and is not blinding when sun is directly overhead and target is light-colored.
Of course I will have to post results of installation, filing, shooting, etc.
One little patridge will make for much MISSION MILEAGE.

Rip ...

MISSION MATERIEL SUPPORT:

The SPEER HANDLOADING MANUAL Number 15
of 2018 has been spiffed up quite a bit.
They may have lost the .458/500-gr tungsten-core data
but they have ye olde Speer .458/400-gr FNSP data sure to be of interest for 4-5-8-cognoscenti.
From 24" barrel.
The COL is 3.125",
Winchester or Federal cases,
CCI 250 primer,
and the MAP is 60,000 psi -- SAAMI:

IMR SR 4759 (reduced load) with Speer 400-gr FNSP:
26.0 gr >>> 1262 fps
30.0 gr >>> 1445 fps

IMR 3031 with with Speer 400-gr FNSP:
67.0 gr >>> 2055 fps
71.0 gr (C) >>> 2169 fps

Hodgdon BENCHMARK with Speer 400-gr FNSP:
75.0 gr >>> 2283 fps
79.4 gr (C) >>> 2402 fps

Accurate 2230 with Speer 400-gr FNSP:
78.0 gr >>> 2290 fps
82.0 gr (C) >>> 2429 fps

I'd say that is a handy reference book, good data.
See below, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

There is some out-dated poop in the general info and "opinion" section, slightly misguided, not bad:

The "punkin roller" load with 4759 in an iron-sighted, 8-pound .458 WIN should be fun, and a good deer load in the timber.
Fury01 may have 24 pounds of IMR SR 4759, I only have 8 pounds of it.
But I do have 24 pounds of Accurate 2230.
A filler-load with that might make a "punkin roller" load.

Speer now shows loads for the .458 Lott with only one bullet,
the 350-gr FNSP Hot-Cor at COL of 3.400" (stubby bullet),
red-faced MAP of 62,500 PSI,
24" barrel length,
Norma case, F-215 primer.
The one admirable load I see there, for the .458 Lott:

Accurate 2460:
88.5 gr >>> 2674 fps
98.0 gr (C) >>> 2865 fps

This suggests that in the .458 WIN-V-3.6", the monometal Barnes TSX 350-grainer might do better than the .458 Lott if loaded to 3.400" or longer COL with AA-2460 powder.
But only if 98 grains of AA-2460 can be gotten into a 2.5" case with a drop tube and compression.
Even the .458 Lott load with that much powder is compressed (C).


This then is another recommendation for AA-2460,
though AA-2230 is still probably tops if you had to load the .458 WIN with only one powder.
But life is too short to load with only one powder !

H4350
AA-2460
AA-2230
BENCHMARK
H4198
IMR SR 4759 or AA-5744
and many more powders too numerous to shake a stick at are good in the .458 Win.Mag.,
the most versatile hunting rifle cartridge ever conceived !

Rip ...

Selous cured his 4-Bore-Flinch by discovering the Gibbs .461.
He was most fond of the 540-gr bullet with 75 grains of "Trebel Strong #5 or #6" in the .461 Gibbs No. 1, but I have yet to find a quoted MV for that load.
He probably used the longer-necked version (No. 2) before moving on to other makers than Gibbs.

Ballistics were modest by today's smokeless standards,
but recoil with BP is much greater for the ballistics achieved.
However, relatively soft, paper-patched bullets performed very well at those old bullet weights and velocity levels, and .461-caliber.

Imitating those Gibbs .461 recoil levels should be extremely satisfying for any riflecrank.
With smokeless powder and either jacketed or hardcast bullets, velocities will be higher, high enough to make those bullets perform well on game.
Trajectories will be more forgiving.
Practical enough for hunting and practice use by the masses, like me, with recoil levels that won't induce flinching.

There are three well known Gibbs .461 recoil levels to imitate with the .458 Win.Mag., both rifles weighing 8 pounds with iron sights:

1. 480-gr bullet/85-gr BP/1300 fps MV, Military Load: 41.5 ft-lbs/18.28 fps

2. 360-gr bullet/100-gr BP/1700 fps MV, Express Load: 46.4 ft-lbs/19.32 fps

3. 570-gr bullet/90-gr BP/1350 fps MV, Safari Load: 56.4 ft-lbs/21.3 fps

Selous RUSE loads for the .458 Win.Mag. of any COL preferred, using .461-caliber hardcast, or .458-caliber jacketed or monometal bullets:

1. 475-gr bullet/56.0 gr smokeless (AA-2460?) + filler/1600 fps MV: 41.5 ft-lbs/18.27 fps (Military Load)

2. 400-gr bullet/62.0 gr smokeless (BENCHMARK?) +/- filler/2000 fps MV: 47.2 ft-lbs/19.49 fps (Express Load)
Or:
350-gr bullet/66.0 gr smokeless (H322?) +/- filler/2250 fps MV: 47.8 ft-lbs/19.60 fps (Express Load)

3. 543-gr bullet/66.0 gr smokeless (H4350?) +/- filler/1630 fps MV: 56.7 ft-lbs/21.3 fps (Safari Load)

Rip ...

As Fury01 pointed out, there is plenty of angle on this NECG sourdough for the CZ ramp:



Filed to fit in the slot.
0.375" height now instead of previous 0.285" small white bead.
The patridge gives about twice the calculated correction in elevation I needed with the rear peep sight at top adjustment with shorter front.

Setting the rear peep at middle adjustment now might be just right,
with those Hornady factory 500-gr DGX at 2125 fps from Marcella's 23" barrel.
Might not have to file the front to lower height.
I will shoot it again before doing any filing.
The windage adjustment as calculated was made with the NECG Weaver peep, for the Hornady factory loads, needs checking too.

8-pound rifle recoil with 500-grainer at 2125 fps MV (23" McGowen) using 72 grains of powder (like AA-2230): 78.1 ft-lbs/25.1 fps

8-pound rifle recoil with 400-grain HV at 2511 fps MV (23" McGowen) using 80 grains of AA-2230: 75.5 ft-lbs/24.6 fps

8-pound rifle recoil with 300-grain TSX at 2800 fps MV (23" McGowen) using 79.0 grains of H4198: 58.2 ft-lbs/21.6 fps
Compare the 300-grainer smokeless load at 2800 fps
to the 570-grainer BP load at 1350 fps, 90 grains of BP: 56.4 ft-lbs/21.3 fps
Very similar in same weight rifles.

I will look forward to practicing with the Selous RUSE loads as therapy for my flinch.

Rip ...

.458 Wjn.Mag. SAAMI restrictions likely satisfied by this prediction:

250-gr Hornady Monoflex, seating depth 0.255" (add a third cannelure), COL 3.340"
W-W case, WLRM primer, 66.0 gr of AA-5744, 91% LR-fill, 100% burnt
23" barrel length
MV 2900 fps
about 59,000 PSI
Recoil in 8-pound rifle: 42.5 ft-lbs/18.49 fps

This is a Selous RUSE for the .461 Gibbs No. 1 Military Match load: 480-gr PP bullet, 85 gr of BP, 1300 fps
Recoil in 8-pound rifle: 41.5 ft-lbs/18.28 fps

It will be interesting to see where a 250-grainer at 2900 fps impacts relative to a 500-grainer at 2125 fps, with same iron sights setting.
If too wildly different this Selous RUSE load will be relegated to scoped rifle.

Rip ...

.458 Lott:

Rip ...

RIP, maybe the “problem” with the 458 WM is that it is the 30-06 of big bores. Too rational and too flexible. The vanilla ice cream of big bores when everyone wants moose tracks or mocha almond fudge swirl. We are in the age of niche and nostalgia. Nostalgia ending in the 20’s. I like vanilla BTW. Who wants a Toyota Corolla when you can have a Tesla?

Hey, what's wrong with a Toyota Corolla besides all the recalls on the airbag inflaters from Takada, like so many other cars also made here in the USA ?

Nineteen-Fifties is where nostalgia starts for me: .458 WIN

The .458 WIN has done everything from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Sublime: Single-cartridgely revitalized the safari industry in the Fifties and Sixties.
Ridiculous: Helped bring us the .577 Tyrannosaur.
A Namibian PH told Art Alphin about a client with a .458 Winchester Magnum DOUBLE RIFLE
who shot an elephant in the foot and in the tusk, then threw down his DR and fled the scene of the crime!
The PH had to stop the angry elephant. He asked Alphin for something bigger than his current PH rifle, in an A-Square bolt action.

The .458 WIN, hell it was there !

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement ...

With recoil of only about a third of the .577 Tyrannosaur, in a lighter, higher-magazine-capacity rifle like the .458 WIN:
More than adequate for elephant, cape buffalo or woodchucks.
The woodchuck load is only about a quarter of the recoil of a .577 Tyrannosaur.

Rip ...

quote:

RIP, maybe the “problem” with the 458 WM is that it is the 30-06 of big bores.

And the 416 Rigby is potentially the 270 Weatherby of big bores.
The 416 Ruger is the 270 Win of big bores.

Here is what the McGowen barrel (500 AccRel Nyati) did:



That is a .510" caliber at 100 yards, 0.45" group of three, producing 6500ft# of recoil.

With this reasoning, why not the 400 Whelen?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Hey, what's wrong with a Toyota Corolla besides all the recalls on the airbag inflaters from Takada, like so many other cars also made here in the USA ?

Nineteen-Fifties is where nostalgia starts for me: .458 WIN

The .458 WIN has done everything from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Sublime: Single-cartridgely revitalized the safari industry in the Fifties and Sixties.
Ridiculous: Helped bring us the .577 Tyrannosaur.
A Namibian PH told Art Alphin about a client with a .458 Winchester Magnum DOUBLE RIFLE
who shot an elephant in the foot and in the tusk, then threw down his DR and fled the scene of the crime!
The PH had to stop the angry elephant. He asked Alphin for something bigger than his current PH rifle, in an A-Square bolt action.

The .458 WIN, hell it was there !

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement ...

With recoil of only about a third of the .577 Tyrannosaur, in a lighter, higher-magazine-capacity rifle like the .458 WIN:
More than adequate for elephant, cape buffalo or woodchucks.
The woodchuck load is only about a quarter of the recoil of a .577 Tyrannosaur.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
... That is a .510" caliber at 100 yards, 0.45" group of three, producing 6500ft# of recoil.

OUCH !

Rip ...