quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I have always been under the impression that a parallel freebore was a Weatherby deal and the specification diameter being .0005 over bullet size or groove diameter.

Or .0006" over groove/bullet diameter, running for a length that was once upon a time way greater than bullet diameter, like 0.750" long free-bore in the circa post-WWII (1944-1945) .375 Weatherby, cut down to just under bullet diameter length of parallel-sided free-bore (~0.370") in 2001.

The current 6.5 Creedmoor throat is very Weatherby-esque, comparable to the newest CIP .375 Weatherby Magnum.

Ron,

The 378 and 460 are still .75"

Mike,
Yes, 0.750" in the CIP .378 and .460 Wby.Mags.
And they do great for accuracy in spite of it.
The length of bullet free-travel from 2.500" case mouth to groove diameter of barrel in the .458 Win.Mag. is only 0.6725".
Way less than in a .460 Wby.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

I finally got a chance to take the rifle to the range to test out the .458 Win+P Torpedo load.

My testing was only semi-successful, due to the connectors used by the PressureTrace II system not holding in place during the recoil of a heavy caliber rifle. Also note that the PTII hasn't yet been calibrated with my barrel, so all results are relative and not absolute.

*** VERY PRELIMINARY DATA ***

No targets were captured as shooting was off-hand and not carefully aimed. The goal was to get velocity and pressure data, accuracy be damned this time out. My shoulder doesn't like doing 20 full-bore 458 rounds from the bench.

First test was a Remington 450 grain factory-loaded A-Frame round. Velocity was measured at 2167 and 2205 for 2 rounds. Only the second resulted in a successful pressure trace capture at 39,331 psi.



Next up was an old stand-by handload of a 500 Grain Hornady Interlock SP over 70.0 grains of IMR-4895. There were 4 rounds fired, velocities were 2083, 2069, 2055 and 2087 fps. Again only one usable pressure trace was captured at a pressure of 41,747 psi. This agrees well with published data for H-4895, which is a pinch faster burning, at the same charge weight giving 42,000 CUP.

(Yes, I know there is a little apple and orange there, as PSI and CUP aren't exactly the same, and my powder is a little slower than the published data. However, it shows we're definitely in the same ballpark, and my PT-II is probably close to actual pressures).



The final useful trace was from a 528-grain Lehigh "Torpedo" loaded to a COAL of 4.22 inches with 74 grains of H335. Three rounds were fired, velocities measured 2114, 2105, and 2124, and measured pressure was 45,970 psi. As expected, recoil was getting pretty unpleasant in a Ruger No. 1.

I don't totally trust this trace due to the shape of the peak. I'd want to repeat it with at least 3 more rounds to make sure the connectors weren't slipping a little there and throwing off the measurement.



Final Notes

No loads flattened or cratered any primers. All cases ejected very easily. No bullets tumbled and holes were round.

I'm quite certain that I still have quite a bit of headroom with H335 in the "Torpedo" configration.

More testing will follow once I reconfigure the cabling setup to hold on through the recoil. The connectors were being pulled apart even before peak pressures were measured due to inertial effects of recoil on the wiring.

The Maz,

So you shot offhand, out standing in your field.
Excellent work.
We shall await any further results.
Around 40 to 50 Kpsi, 1 CUP = 1.18 PSI is a good approximation.

A buddy just dropped his bush hog off the jacks onto the left side of his body and slammed his head on the concrete garage floor.
Going to the hospital to see if I can visit him today, 3 hour drive each way.
We are the Dynamic Duo, last of the Fearsome Foursome, high school team mates.
The Dynamic Duo must not become The Ancient One.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

A buddy just dropped his bush hog off the jacks onto the left side of his body and slammed his head on the concrete garage floor.
Going to the hospital to see if I can visit him today, 3 hour drive each way.
We are the Dynamic Duo, last of the Fearsome Foursome, high school team mates.
The Dynamic Duo must not become The Ancient One.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

RIP,

Please give my best regards to your partner in the Duo, and accept my prayers that he has a quick recovery.

I am going to admit to the limits of my man card and will use a lead sled for further development of 458 Win+P rounds. At over 5200 ft/lbs in a 10 pound rifle, the recoil is just too much for the sustained accurate firing needed here. Seriously, my .50 BMG is a pussycat by comparison due to weight.

Who would guess that the little straight round could possibly kick worse that a BMG?

Prayers were answered. The other half of the Dynamic Duo got away with 3 tiny subarachnoid bleeds that did not require opening his skull, thanks to serial MRIs.
I told him to stop trying to bust up his garage floor with his head, use a jackhammer next time.
He is out of the hospital and showing his usual sense of humor, a most important mental status sign.
His idea of a joke at discharge, was to ask the neurosurgeon if he would still be able to go deer hunting this fall,
as long as he did not headbutt the deer.

The Maz,

Don't do it with a lead sled.
Bob cracked his Ruger No.1 stock with a lead sled.
Use a 25-pound bag of birdshot at the bench, between you and the rifle.
If that is more than you want, get a PAST pad,
or a 2-inch-thick piece of high-density foamrubber, like from the butt cushion you use in your deer stand.
Cut a piece of that to go between rifle and you.
Cut a couple of other pieces to go between your elbows/forearms and the benchrest top.
That is how I get by from the bench if no muzzle brake.
The foam rubber blocks under the elbows are useful anytime at the bench:



I am not a believer in steel buttplates for recoil reduction.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Speaking of easing recoil, I looked back at how H4895 compared to AA-2460 with 543-gr cast bullet,
and I realized there was another +6000 ft-lb load to add to my list, now 5 of them,
muzzle brake preferred for benchrest shooting of +6000 ft-lbs loads, especially with the heavier bullets:





.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

My best load with that 540-ish-grain Saeco #20 cast bullet turned out to be with 3.475" COL and 72.0 grains of AA-2460:
5-yard velocity of 2137 fps and 1.04 MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards.
Estimated MV of 2150 fps from the 25" Shilen barrel.
A 1.04-MOA load at 2150 fps MV with the 400-ish-grain cast bullet surely would be nice for recoil reduction.

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Rip
Just slow to hat big red pig down for your recoil reduction. Remember he “man fro Shiloh” and his loads. A critter has never been made that can hold that well placed bullet and Walk away.

Few typos rip but you will figure it out.

The Maz, I agree with RIP please do not use a lead sled it will cause damage. get your self a Past or Caldwell recoil shield the work great.I bought the Mag one from Caldwell and it works great no pain but one heavy punch. my buddy calls it a sissy pad but when I showed him the 450 gr TSX load he declined to even think about shooting it even with the "sissy pad" but it works. good luck

I use a "sissy" Past magnum pad, plus a folded terry cloth towel under my shirt. More like a heavy push.

Plus a long eye-relief scope, sitting back as far as possible while still centering the crosshairs in a circle of light. And NO cheek weld unless you want a broken jaw or loose teeth. And sit up straight at the bench. No slouching. And contrary to bench-rest shooters, hold down on the forearm. Don't let the rifle "bounce".It needs to come straight back.

My CZ550 firing the 500gr Hornady at +2200 fps once pushed me off my bench seat, but never hurt me -- either physically or emotionally from embarrassment.

Otherwise shoot from offhand in practice once data, accuracy and poi are known. Also, a folded piece of carpet goes under my right elbow (I shoot left-handed) and a 5 lb bag of shot under my left elbow. Reverse for "normal" shooters. As Rip mentioned, protection for elbows as well as shoulder, eyes and ears is essential. And one more thing: At my best times (20 years ago or more), I never shot more than 20 rounds in a session from either my Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT or my CZ550. As I've aged (now closing on 85) I shoot less -- no more than 10 or less in a session. And I break that in two parts using a .22LR or some other rifle with modest recoil. The heaviest I've been in my prime was 210 lbs in shorts at 5'- 10" wearing light shoes. Today I'm 165 - 168 in underpants and 5'-9" with shoes. While physically fit, even in my 60's, and could hold my own with much younger men of my weight class, yet I've never been a "tank" like RIP -- meant in a positive way RIP, who can handle the truly BIG BORES like the rest of us might deal with a .300 magnum. Yet there are many who complain about the recoil of a .300 Win Mag -- which has always been one of my favorites.

I was at the range yesterday with my 9.3 x 62 trying a new load -- the 286 Hornady over 68 grains RL-17, WLRM primers, Hornady brass. Corrected MV = 2602 fps/4299 ft-lbs. I was surprised as 70 grains behind the 286 Nos. Part. gives an average of 2640 fps and MOA. I expected 2550 from the Hornady. My first 1 lb can of RL-17 gave an average of 2622 fps from the 286 Nosler. Same load from second can has increased that by 18 fps -- which is normal from a different can but the same lot! Yes, count on it! Maybe the diff was that the bore needs a brush through a couple of times from a Bore Snake? But I did that the last time, last fall. Firing two of the Hornady's, the spread was only 5 fps. I do the same as with the .458 WIN, compressed charges of RL-17 by about 9% using 70 grains in a Hornady case. 68 grains is about 5%. Never signs of undo pressure.

bcelliott did a QL test for me on the 286 Nosler at about 64,000 psi -- result was 2616 fps at just under 64,000 psi. So, I don't recommend that load for old rifles in 9.3 x 62. The Hornady brass handles that psi very well. No fear for my new Tikka T3 with a Sako match-grade barrel.


And, yes, never use a Lead Sled!

And thanks RIP for all your great work!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob

I once caught the scope with my nose, and since then ditched the 3x9 and switched to a 4x shotgun scope with lots of eye relief. That was not a fun experience...

I've rerouted the cable for the pressure gauge on the No. 1 to face rearward and not be pulled out during the recoil event.



I also added a little Kapton high-temperature tape over the sensor to provide a bit more environmental isolation and protection.



I am now ready to perform Phase 2 pressure tests, and hopefully now the kinks are worked out of the system and my data collection efforts will bear more fruit than the last attempt.

The Maz,

Sticking to it, eh ? That is a bad pun about a good job being done by you.
A "pressure gun" action fixed on a mechanical rest with interchangeable barrels would not be half the entertainment and information you are providing
for THE MISSION.
Buy a donkey.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Bob,
Buy a donkey for those flowers.
I was once a skinny little "track & cross country runner" in high school and 1 year of college varsity.
Now I am a fat and sassy .458 Winchester Magnum advocate aka "Tank."
I hope I can do it as long as you have.
Flowers to you too.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip
Just slow that big red pig down for your recoil reduction. Remember the “man from Shiloh” and his loads. A critter has never been made that can hold that well placed bullet and Walk away.

Yep, poor ol' Quigley, would have had it rough with that 110 grains of BP behind a 550-gr PP bullet at 1450 fps MV (?) from
a 10-pound rifle if he wanted to make the Creedmoor weight restriction for 1000-yard contests.
Mighty fine bison hunting load too.
Recoil: 54.8 ft-lbs @ 18.78 fps

Hypothetically, the .458 WIN as a 10-pound, scoped
rifle might use that 543-grain red pig in front of 62 grains of AA-2460 (+ filler), for 1800 fps MV.
Recoil: 51.1 ft-lbs @ 18.13 fps

Less recoil,
10" shorter barrel,
350 fps faster MV,
only 7 grains less bullet weight,
and further recoil abatement by a rubber recoil pad instead of a steel buttplate.

Another hypothetical:
.458 WIN 10 pounds with scope and 24" barrel
550-grain bullet
55 grains propellant, many possibilities
1450 fps MV
Recoil: 35.4 ft-lbs @ 15.09 fps.

That would make the .458 WIN plumb gentle on the shooter and a far better hunting implement than the .45-110-550-2-7/8" Sharps Straight,
with identical exterior ballistics.
Selous used similar 540-grainers at similar velocity to hunt the big five of Africa, with his ".450" which was a .461 Gibbs single-shot.

Progress is good,
even since 1956, with the .458 Winchester Magnum refinements.
Those include 550-grain Woodleigh RN SN and FMJ at 2110 fps at 3.340" COL using 71.0 gr charge of Hodgdon Benchmark for 60,000 PSI or less.
Poor ol' .458 Lott can only do 5 fps faster than that at 62,500 PSI and 3.600" COL with same bullets and 81.0 gr charge of RL15. OUCH !
THROAT

Note that the little guy above is beating on the throat of the dead horse named .458 Lott.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Cogitating:

AA-5744 with filler is a very uniform burner, but pressures get too high for top velocity with cast bullets.
Use for reduced-velocity/high-pressure jacketed loads with higher charges.
Use for reduced-velocity/low-pressure cast loads with lower charges.

AA-2230 and AA-2460 work well with filler for lower pressure, top velocity cast loads.
Use with or without filler for any-velocity/any-pressure jacketed loads.
Fills of 100% loading ratio of AA-2230 are wonderful.
Might be able to use a 102% load of AA-2460 to surpass AA-2230's MV at lower pressure.
No more compression than that is needed.

H4895: This wunderpowder is best with some compression.
It may not burn as efficiently at lesser fills and is a slightly more bulky extruded powder than the compact ball powders.
But a 105% to 110% fill with its tiny sticks will beat a 100% fill of AA-2230 quite handily.
Meters well.
Bona fide ThermoBallisticIndependence.
Excellent with bullets from 400-grains and heavier.
Use the Woodleigh manual .458 Lott maximum charge of H4895 with the .458 WIN+P and 400-gr PP SN.
That is supposed to be less than or equal to .458 Lott MAP allowed, at 3.425" COL in the .458 Lott:
Same compression and even better results with the .458 WIN+P at 3.425" COL.

H4198: This is so good with 350-grain and lesser weight bullets that I would not bother trying H4895 for less than 400-grainers.

.458"/ 250-grain zingers and plinkers: Compressed H4198 or maybe a high LR of AA-5744 for an attempt at Mach 3 ?
However, I might give up on it before compressing AA-5744, move on to a faster powder,
or just settle for whatever sub-Mach-3 maximum with compressed H4198.
Just sayin'.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

.458 Winchester Magnum SAAMI minimum groove diameter .458", bore diameter .450", 6 grooves, 1:14" twist RH ...
Jacketed bullet maximum diameter: .4590" - .0030" (minimum .456")

.45-70 Govt SAAMI minimum groove diameter .456", bore diameter .450", 6 grooves, 1:20" twist RH ...
Jacketed bullet maximum diameter: .4580" - .0030" (minimum .455")


Some barrels slugged for groove diameter:

Factory barrels:

Pedersoli Rolling Block .45-70 Govt: .457" (might choke down to .456" at muzzle), 6-groove, 1:18" twist

Browning Miroku Winchester M1885 .45-70 Govt: .457", 6-groove, 1:18" twist

Marlin stainless M1895 .45-70 Govt : .458", 6-groove, 1:20" twist

Ruger No. 1-S stainless .45-70 Govt: .459", 8-groove, 1:20" twist

Ruger No. 1-H Tropical, .458 Win.Mag.: .459", 8-groove, 1:14" twist

CZ 550 Magnum .458 Win.Mag.: .459", 6-groove, 1:14" twist

Winchester M70 Super Grade .458 Win.Mag., a 2011 model: .459", 6-groove, 1:14" twist

Custom barrels:

Shilen stainless: .459" (to nearest .001", might be as small as .4585"), 6-groove, 1:14" twist

McGowen stainless: .458", 6-groove, 1:14" twist

Pac-Nor stainless: .458", 8-groove, 1:10" twist

For THE MISSION.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

I am letting my .461"/ 407-ish-grain bullets of 92-5-2-1 alloy age 4 weeks (until 7-16-2020) for full hardness post powder-coat painting.
Water-dropped they are harder than water-dropped Linotype, and hopefully less brittle.
Powder-coat painting softens them a bit,
but they seem to age back to original hardness over a 4-week period.
Tough enough for small game anywho.
I think they will kill a deer if they shoot straight and go a gentlemanly 1800 to 2200 fps.
For THE MISSION.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

God willing, my hope for this very hot coming-up week (+31*C all week!/88*F) is to load up some 405-gr Remingtons at about 2085 fps. My goal is to sight that load dead on at 100 yds. If they shoot well it will become my bear load for the upcoming season commencing Sept 1st. to Nov.15. Reasons? I have many of those and few 300 TSX's remaining. Also on a bear from my 1895 Marlin, one did a terrific job in a going away shot at 100 yds. DRT.

If they don't show good consistent accuracy then it will be the 350 TSX load at about 2782 fps.

The 300 TSX shows very fine accuracy at 2943 fps, corrected to MV over 82 grs H4198 - same as 75grs at 2752, both sub-moa. But I don't currently have enough of the 300s for both practice and hunting. I'll try to locate more as they are plenty for bear, and recoil is sub 40 ft-lbs with the Mag-na-porting.

So my three options are the 300 TSX (if I can find some), the 405 Rem or 350 TSX.

For THE MISSION!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

What is your powder charge for .458 WIN to get the Remington 405-grainer going 2085 fps ?

That kind of velocity would be perfect for the 400-ish-grainer cast bullets I have coming up.
I am hoping for accuracy as good as is so easy with the jacketed bullets of that weight in the .458 WIN.

I will appreciate that recoil level too.
After a hundred-round bench session of hot .458 WIN loads in hot weather, it is good to rest a week or two before doing it again.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

The Maz,
I like your pressure charts and would like to post some interesting one from my Presure Trace II system.
Please walk me through how you were able to load the trace charts on to this forum.

Thank you,

Crshelton,

I know you can post pictures, what kind of files do you have from your Pressure Trace II system ?
If you have something you can print to paper, you can then scan that to a .jpg or .png and post it.
Or are you asking how to get your system to make an output of some particular format like The Maz ?

Whatever you have from your system would be very interesting to see, for THE MISSION.

My old version of QuickLOAD will save .pdf files to my 'puter.
Instead, I print them and then scan the paper copy into a .jpg file to post here, like this:



.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Here is the cartridge to which the above propellant table applies:



That is a "proof of life" photo with the closest thing I have to a newspaper.

The propellant table had another full page of propellants.
Set for 32,000 PSI max pressure and 100% max LR-filling,
in order to favor the cast bullet shown at COL of 3.260" (above photo),
there was not one powder that gave a 100% burn.

AA-2495 was tops with 99.5% propellant burnt, and tops for MV produced, with only 95% LR-filling.
H4895 fared worse, 95.4% burnt at this low pressure.
That is suggesting maybe H4895 burns better at higher pressure with compression ?

I find QuickLOAD useful for this kind of comparison of propellants for a particular use.
It will probably be way off on the velocity and pressure.
So maybe I try something like 90% fill with AA-2495 and work up.
Might find something like the predicted 2108 fps for this 407-grainer,
whatever shoots best.

The AA-2495 starts burning 100% of charge at 39,402 PSI with 71.6 grains charge, 101% LR-filling,
producing 2231 fps MV for the 407-grainer at 3.260" COL.

I'll try 64.0 grains (~90% LR-filling) to 72.0 grains (~102% LR-filling) with this bullet and powder combo.
That is predicted by QuickLOAD to be about 26,000 PSI to about 40,000 PSI,
with MV about 2000 fps to about 2250 fps,
for what that is worth.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
The Maz,
I like your pressure charts and would like to post some interesting one from my Presure Trace II system.
Please walk me through how you were able to load the trace charts on to this forum.

Thank you,

I found it best to do the print function and screenshot that, or just screenshot the traces as displayed on the screen and paste the screenshot into MS Paint.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Bob,

What is your powder charge for .458 WIN to get the Remington 405-grainer going 2085 fps ?

That kind of velocity would be perfect for the 400-ish-grainer cast bullets I have coming up.
I am hoping for accuracy as good as is so easy with the jacketed bullets of that weight in the .458 WIN.

I will appreciate that recoil level too.
After a hundred-round bench session of hot .458 WIN loads in hot weather, it is good to rest a week or two before doing it again.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

RIP;

I'll be loading 6 - 8 of the 405 Rems today for a shoot tomorrow. The load will be what seemed promising a couple of weeks ago: Hornady brass, WLRM, 75 grs RL-15. I had loaded three based on preliminary results of one shot on June 11/19 = 2084 corrected to MV. On June 16/20 I fired three. 2086, 2085, 2102 corrected to MV.

Because "GRACE" is sighted +1" at 100 yds for the 300 TSX, I aimed too high for the first 405 so as to be on paper. It hit about +4" over center. So for the next two I aimed dead center on target. They hit touching about -4" from dead center. So, for testing without touching the scope, I'll aim center hold for a group of three -- hopefully, about MOA or better. If such is the case, I'll adjust scope to dead centre and fire three more. If all goes well, that will be my bear load, just over 3900 ft-lbs at the muzzle and just over 3000 ft-lbs at 100 yds. Chances are very slim that I'd shoot a bear beyond that due to thick woods and brush.

Recoil about 30 - 31 ft-lbs with Mag-na-ports. Rifle weight with five 405s = 10.65 lbs -- about the same as a hot-loaded 7 Rem Mag (see my blog today).

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

RIP;

I think 73 grs H4895 should give about the same results as 75 of RL-15, based on former experience of using each in a .458 WIN. Accuracy?

I'm hoping to give that a try as well. Will confirm results when I do try 73 of H4895.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

Buy a donkey for real world results with the .458 WIN.
I need to get caught up on your blog,
including BEAR bullets -- P5, and the latest, Moose-size game cartridges -- P1.
50 lashes with a wet noodle for me getting behind on my reading.
Thanks for the reminder.
Always great stuff there.
Meanwhile my cast bullets are aging in place,
too bad they weren't ready for 4th of July.
I must find some white PC paint to go with the red and blue for next year.



I have just recently finished lashing my behind with that wet noodle for forgetting to not push the cast bullets too hard with pressure.

Velocity is not the accuracy limiting factor with cast bullets.
The buggaboo is pressure.

Finding the correct powder for 100% case filling and 100% powder burn at about 32,000 psi
is the latest bee in my bonnet.
An accurate 400-ish-grainer at +/- 2100 fps is the goal.

It is so easy with jacketed and monometal bullets.
Just put the pedal to the metal until you beat the .458 Lott with any bullet of 400 grains or heavier.


That reminds me that the top loads for the .458 Lott with Woodleigh .458/ 450-grain HYDRO in the WOODLEIGH BULLETS LOADING MANUAL are:
H4895/AR2206H: 86.0 grains (compressed) >>> 2450 fps
and
Benchmark/Bench Mark 2: 85.0 grains (compressed) >>> 2480 fps

We have only gotten the 450-grain TSX up to 2457 fps MV with 84.0 grains of AA-2230 in the .458 WIN+P.

Whatever the .458 Lott can do with the 450-grain HYDRO at 3.600" COL and 62,500 psi limit,
the .458 WIN+P can do better, for sure.

Member Head Trauma (Russ) did shoot a couple of elephants in Zimbabwe (2008) with Alan Shearing as his PH.
Russ was carrying a .458 Lott with Barnes Banded 450-grain Solid.
PH was carrying a .458 WIN.

They both had to shoot the first elephant in the head near simultaneously at a range of THREE (3) YARDS.
Yes they got charged, and it was the happiest ending with the closest range STOP that I ever saw on video.
That occurred 3 hours into the first day of hunting.
Seemed like it occurred only 3 minutes into Russ's excellent video.
The rest of the video was gravy on top of that choice cut !
It was a cow with tusks, shot in self defense.

Russ's second elephant was a side-brain shot at 25 yards.
He literally knocked that mature, tuskless cow elephant on its side with one shot.

Whatever that .458 Lott was doing with a 450-grain flat-nosed brass solid,
the .458 WIN+P assures that it can do the same.
No better is needed, even if the .458 WIN+P could do a higher velocity or lower pressure, or both.
Maybe it would be best to duplicate Russ's external ballistics with the better internal ballistics of the .458 WIN+P.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

I found it best to do the print function and screenshot that, or just screenshot the traces as displayed on the screen and paste the screenshot into MS Paint.

Thanks - I will try again.

Crshelton,

You can do it, I am sure, even if a caveman might have trouble with that.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

RIP,
Check for a PM related to one of your posts just previous.

RIP,
I successfully loaded three Pressure Trace II .405 WCF traces into our active PM. The originals fit an 8.5x11 page and had to be reduced to .75 that size to work in the PM. This reduction made some of the smaller print difficult to read, but I can email them to you you full size if need be.
I think that you can easily see the benefit of using the VV N133 powder when you desire to match good velocity with significantly lower pressure.

This is easily seen by the shape of the pressure traces for the factory Hornady 300 grain ammo at 2225 fps, hand loaded VV N133 300 grain North Fork ammo at 2250 fps, and hand loaded 400 grain Woodleigh TAC DG loads at 2076 fps. This "slow" Woodie does kill Cape Buff.

You will notice that the extension of the .405 chamber to seat the 400 grain Woodleigh bullet at the cannelure reduced all the pressures somewhat and kept the TAC DG load below 50,000 psi. ? a .405 Long COL ?

crshelton,

OK, I'll send my email in the PM for the full-sized images.
Buy a donkey for THE MISSION.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

To member Head Trauma,
a big buy a donkey for the bullet photo and details of his elephant hunting.
He may correct anything if I got it wrong or elaborate further, please,
for THE MISSION.



Continued on page 207.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Or just use the plain vanilla SAAMI .458 WIN MAG with
CEB brass Safari Solid at +2300 fps to equal the HEAD TRAUMA load of a .458 Lott.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

It's sure too bad we can't get that excellent Barnes bullet today Rip.

Rip,
What does AA 2015 do in your chart scenario above? What does Quickload say about 51 grains of same behind a 425 grain, 433 grain, and a 485 grain Cast GC bullet at 3.275 OAL? All those shoot well for me and that is as long as I can seat them and feed from the magazine in my Whitworth.
Thank you Sir!

Fury01,

The propellant chart check on AA-2015 would be worthwhile for comparing that powder to others, in a relative way.
Take specific pressures and velocities all with a grain of salt for each grain of powder burnt, however

I will run the 3 charts for your three bullets
if you specify a Bullet Overall Length and a Cartridge Overall Length for each one:

425 gr
433 gr
485 gr

Specify a powder charge for each one of those also, just for yucks.

Then I will limit the propellant chart to 32,000 psi and 85% to 100% Loading Ratio/Filling,
and see what pops out.
That will be after I get back from checking on an elderly shut-in, Mama.
Right now, a dump before I go see Mama: