Funny - I own 32acp.com and there is nothing malicious there. Just upgraded WordPress today. Maybe I need to jump through some hoops to be a trusted site?

My idea is to crimp into the second from the bottom groove and leave lots and lots of room for powder. When using QL, I tend to set it to a very high start pressure and conservative weighting just to get me into a ballpark, then I can let the PressureTrace readings guide me from there. The idea with QL is to just not blow myself up at the beginning of the process! Oh, and the bullet length is what I measured with a set of calipers.

And that short copper one can be loaded similarly - bet velocities can be pushed way high loading it long. H335 and 4198 come to mind here...

You and Lehigh measure the same, eh?
I see what you are doing with QL.
Maybe you can figure out the settings to make QL match reality of your pressures and velocity,
i.e., account for long throat.

McGowen Twist Calculator says a brass bullet of 2.200" length at 2300 fps requires 1:14.1" twist.
That is pushing the envelope.

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Hey, the .458 Win doesn't have a throat it has a long funnel!

quote:

Originally posted by The Maz:
... And that short copper one can be loaded similarly - bet velocities can be pushed way high loading it long. H335 and 4198 come to mind here...

Jawohl !
We think alike
Two bands seated and crimped on next to last groove,
as long as you have room in the throat, and can unload an unfired round from the chamber
without too much trouble.
A Ruger No. 1 would be perfect for the job at hand.
You can compress the heck out of those stick powders, not the ball powders.

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by The Maz:
Hey, the .458 Win doesn't have a throat it has a long funnel!

OK you are joking, but that "funnel-only" throat allows accuracy and effective case capacity increase by pressure reduction.

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

And guess what my .458 is... a Ruger No. 1! I did this stuff without software and pressure gauges back in the 90s with it - seated Hornady 500s way long and just filled the case with 4895 to good effect. Now that I have some tech to work with, the sky is the limit!

Not ripping the .458 throat design at all - it works. Maybe more rounds should use the idea?

Also, that 380 grain Lehigh is also a prime candidate for very light "-P" loads using around 15 grains of Red Dot. I've done a few hundred of those with 405 grain lead bullets, and pressures are quite mild - primers are more caved by the firing pin than the pressure of the powder. Sounds and feels like a .22 LR, hits like a .44 Magnum.

quote:

Originally posted by The Maz:
... very light "-P" loads using around 15 grains of Red Dot. I've done a few hundred of those with 405 grain lead bullets, and pressures are quite mild - primers are more caved by the firing pin than the pressure of the powder. Sounds and feels like a .22 LR, hits like a .44 Magnum.

There ya go, another load for THE MISSION.
Buy a donkey for that too.

NON ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM

Thanks RIP... but where am I going to put all these donkeys? I barely have room for my dog and cats...

Just kidding. Auf Wiedersehen... or maybe Americanize it to Peter Stain! (No offense intended)

Revisions of R.I.P. homologation of the .458 WIN+P follow below.

Minimum COL is 2.500".
New maximum COL is 4.300".
Brass minimum length is 2.500".
Brass maximum length is 2.500".
New twist specification for the .458 WIN+P: 1:14" standard, but optional allowed from 1:7" to 1:28".
(SAAMI spec for .458 Lott is 1:10" twist standard, 1:10" to 1:20" optional.)

Once again the .458 WIN+P thoroughly trounces the SAAMI .458 Lott, with both faster twist and slower twist options,
longer COL and shorter COL,
and higher velocity for same pressure, of course.

The latest R.I.P. specifications revision date for the .458 WIN+P is 2020/June/12.
This is retroactive to allow The Maz's load.

BTW, ".458 WIN+P" is simply a contraction of
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Possible uses for this bullet as loaded by The Maz:

1. Target Shooting: Stable in air, an excellent 1000-yard competition bullet. Possible 2-Mile use just for the fun of it.

2. Varmint Shooting: Unstable after impact on game, it might turn sideways and dump energy promptly.
Would a wood chuck explode into a red mist ?
At what range is the effect most spectacular ?
Field testing is required to answer these questions.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

In the .458 WIN+P this subsonic bullet from Lehigh can be loaded as long as 3.850" COL if the base is identical to the 528-gr VLD.
It is 0.4" shorter than the 528-gr VLD.
It would surely stabilize in a 1:14" twist at 2300 to 2400 fps MV.
But, would the nose fracture soon as the bullet left the muzzle at such speed ?
1:10" twist (or faster twist) and subsonic MV are the design parameters intended for this bullet:



Might get a shotgun pattern usable at 40 yards on large varmints at 2400 fps MV.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

I have 20 of those subsonic Lehigh bullets to play with.
Any loads of the 528-grain Lehigh VLD at 4.250" COL by The Maz would have the same load ratios for my 465-gr subsonic gone supersonic at 3.850" COL.
No muzzle brake recommended for the subsonic traveling at +Mach 2, as nose fragments might try to come out of the side-holes of the brake.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

RIP... I wouldn't push those Lehigh hollow points with the slits too fast - they are almost certain to have the nose spin apart, maybe even in the barrel. They are good ones to use with Red Dot or maybe Blue Dot for reduced loads that hit like the Hammer of Thor.

Got my Ruger No. 1H pressure gage epoxied into place. Still need to remove a sliver of wood from the fore-end of the stock so everything bolts up nicely, and then go through the real PITA of putting a connector on the cable.





Progress is being made. Traces will be available soon!

Also, RIP, I'd expect that the 528 grain solid would work quite well on anything other than elephant and maybe buffalo. It will indeed go sideways and dump energy like crazy, likely starting around 4 - 6 inches of penetration, but the downside is that it will curve while penetrating, so the trajectory inside the target can't be predicted.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
One good turn leads to another Lehigh bullet:



...

Looks good.
Here is what I put in my 45 Colt as a bear defense bullet:



300 grains all copper, wide flat nose. Of course, this is 0.452" "pistol" diameter, not for 458 rifle use.

The Maz,
It sounds to me like you are using Pressure Trace II to measure and report chamber pressures. If so, it does generate very informative graphs. I look forward to seeing your traces for your .458.

The Maz,
Pressure readings will be SUPER-DUPER support of THE MISSION.
Shades of Doc M !
Speaking of the devil, I have a .458 B&M with 1:10" twist, 19.75" barrel length, and a throat I had lengthened beyond the COSMIC SQUIRREL TOP SECRET
B&M reamer spec by SSK gunsmith.

Yes, the Lehigh .458"/ 465-grain "Nose Cracker" needs a fast twist barrel and subsonic velocity.
But what if the nose were filled with bonded lead ?
Anybody know how to bond lead to brass ?



Pictures of the pressure tracing setup showed up for me for a while but are being blocked right now. Maybe they will be back ...
and I am unable to find server for www.32acp.com ... maybe I have a system problem on my end ?
... I should be considered 'puter illiterate.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Another Lehigh design that might work well as a varmint bullet in the .458 WIN+P:



Could be used as a varminter backup to the 300-gr TSX big game bullet.
Also, I need to try lead roundball and a pinch of pistol powder for the pot.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

416Tanzan,

Looks like a copper WFN that Ross Seyfried would approve of,
except he might say you could get more powder in your case if it was a hardcast lead bullet of same nose shape and shorter BOL,
and there are no flies on hard lead at handgun velocity.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

No flies on Eastwood brand of "Ford Light Blue" powder-coat paint either.
First try on 411-gr Linotype boolit (#3 below) worked beautifully with one coat, excellent coverage, and shiny-smooth noses.
I tried it on the 401-gr 50:50 too (#4 below), two coats there, and all it did was make the noses less smoothly coated.
No more bumpy noses with two coats of Harbor Freight Red for me !
#3: One coat at 400*F for 20 minutes and then air cooled the Linotype.
#4: Same, and then second coat at 450*F for 30 minutes, and then dropped into ice water for hardening of the 50:50 alloy.
Next time I'll try one coat at 450*F/30min and drop that into icewater.



THE SMURF BULLET RETURNS !

Lengths and weights of samples of one bullet of each type:

1: Lehigh 300-grain solid brass: 1.120"/ 299.7 gr

2: Lehigh 465-grain brass controlled fracturing: 1.800"/ 464.7 gr

3: Smurf 411-grainer: 1.240"/ 410.5 gr Linotype (single-coated)

4: Smurf 401-grainer: 1.110"/ 400.0 gr 50:50 alloy (double-coated)

The batches of cast bullets used have a 3-grain spread as cast (+/- 1.5 grains) and sorted into 3 sub-batches with 1-grain spread,
for shooting in sub-batches.
Smurf nominal bullet weight is for ID of these:
Smurf nominal 401-grainers are 400, 401, 402 (+/- 0.5 grains)-- Average = 401 grains
Smurf nominal 411-grainers are 410, 411, 412 (+/- 0.5 grains)-- Average = 411 grains.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

The Maz,

I can see pictures of your pressure trace WIP now.
Whatever is happening with my reception of your image hosting server I do not know, but it seems to come and go.

Now some socially redeeming value to add to my whining, an historical note, related to pressure.
Bob Hagel's loads for the .458 Winchester Magnum:





All but 2 of those loads used the Browning brand of brass that had lesser case capacity than the WW brass.
He had to add 2 grains more of IMR-4320 when he was using the WW-brass instead of Browning brass,
to get similar velocity.

He noted that he did not run into pressure problems with any of his top loads with powders slower burning than the IMR-4198.
He was loading to SAAMI COL and crimping on existing cannelures when the bullet had a cannelure.
Limiting factor for Hagel was the amount of powder compression one desires with the heavy bullets and medium-rate powders.

I am thinking that I am now highly desirous of significant compression of extruded powder, to prevent setback of bullet by magazine battering.
A solid crimp over a compressed load of stick powder and shallow seating depth for COL of +3.340" makes for a nice load in the
.458 WIN+P.
Or a 100% load of ball powder and COL of 3.340" or less can be a .458 WIN+P load as long as you get the pressure raised up to approach .458 Lott MAP.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Swage a 40-grain .22RF lead bullet (or lead wire) to fit the hollow point of the Lehigh 465-grainer,
glue it in with epoxy, tap it in cold, with a brass punch.
Presto: .458"/ 505-grain More-controlled Fracturing
Or:
Wrap the ogive with nonstick aluminum foil, or plug the slits shut with foil,
pour in molten lead,
or fill the hollow point with 40 grains of lead shot,
melt with propane torch, anneals brass nose soft in process ...
Would lead run out of the slits in the nose as it melted, or fill the slits and lock the core in place ?
Epoxy slits shut and cap off the lead at tip with epoxy after it cools ?

New bullet: The Lehigh South Fork Trophy Bonded Brass Wolverine Claw Bullet.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

A commercial bonded bullet machine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq98FC9HMqM

The Corbin method of bullet bonding:

http://www.swage.com/ftp/corebond.pdf

EARL: Elvis Ammo Research Laboratory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOTozoLlSBY

New method of low heat and short time baking: < 250*F for 12-13 minutes reportedly prevents the tempering/softening of bullets.
Water dropping from oven recommended too.
Said to work well with both Harbor Freight Red and Eastwood Ford Light Blue.

Well that is funny.

I will give it a try. The original water-dropped hardness of the naked bullet is reportedly retained with clip-on wheel weight alloy.
Elvis Ammo claimed to get naked-bullet BHN of 20 to 21 with casting and water drop,
but it softened to BHN 11 after powder-coating with 400* X 20 minutes followed by air cooling.
Elvis Ammo claimed the 11 BHN aged to about 15 BHN a week later.

I need to try a "cool & quick" method (250*F X 12 minutes) versus a "hot & slow" method (450*F X 30 minutes)
both followed by ice water quench.

Will try it on the straight 92:5:2:1 alloy,
made from Lawrence Brand Magnum Shot and Pb/Sn solder,
with single coat (shake & bake) of Eastwood Light Ford Blue,
and compare BHN of naked/water-quenched bullet to the painted bullets.
New favorite paint: I am a Ford guy.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

I need to try a "cool & quick" method (250*F X 12 minutes) versus a "hot & slow" method (450*F X 30 minutes)
both followed by ice water quench.

The adherence of the paint will be the kicker here.
I'm thinking the powder/paint would adhere better with a longer cook time - maybe lower temp - longer cook time will give good results.

PressureTrace II gauge is now installed and ready for calibration and testing. I can't use Jim's pre-fabricated ones in these applications and had to connectorize one from Digi-Key. Of course, I didn't strain relieve the first one properly and had to redo the job and kiss goodbye to a $16.25 gauge and an hour of my time. This one I was more careful to make sure that the wire actually was glued to the barrel for a short distance, and the rest of the job went fast and easy once the glue set. It isn't really noticeable unless one is looking for it.

Slightly off-topic but semi-relevant - I also have managed to gauge a Beretta Cheetah .32 ACP in support of my own ".32 ACP+P" efforts. I've so far hit 875 fps with an 85 grain XTP out of that platform while keeping pressures around 23k.

RIP - 32acp.com is hosted on Amazon, and sometimes the name server needs a reboot. That looks like what happened to you there.

For those who'd like to use their .458 WIN on whitetails, bear and varmints at relatively modest recoil, here is the data on four distinct loads fired today at our range 50 min. south of here.

First up: 350-gr Hornady RN, Hornady cases 3rd firing, 68 grns H4198, WLRM primers, COL = 3.223". Corrected avg. MV = 2427 fps/4577 ft-lbs. This load used as sighters to get on target at 50 yards, since the Ruger #1 is pre-sighted for the 300-gr TSX.

Second load: 350-gr Hornady FP, Hornady cases 1st firing, 70 grns H4198, WLRM primers, COL = 3.2". Corrected avg. MV = 2517 fps/4923 ft-lbs. -2.20" low at 50 yards. A good load.

Third load: 405-gr Remington, Hornady cases 1st firing, 75 grns RL-15, WLRM primers, COL = 3.24" (crimped into bottom cannelure). Corrected avg. MV = 2090 fps/3928 ft-lbs. Very accurate. Shot into same group as the Hornady 350-gr FP. Have used this bullet at 100 yards on a medium black bear from my 1895 Marlin at 2110 fps. Bullet completely penetrated from left flank to behind right shoulder. It made exit into the bush beyond. The bear was flattened on the spot!

Last load: the 300 TSX "bear load" at 2768 fps/5103 ft-lbs. One fired to verify poi. +1" at 50 yards. That's been consistent. Recoil number is the same as for the 405-gr at 2090 fps. They both use 75 grains propellant; H4198 for the 300 TSX and RL-15 for the 405 Remington. But the recoil for the 300 seemed quicker (shorter) and the recoil for the 405 seemed just a tad slower.

Interesting takeaways for me: The recoil for the 405 and 300 being similar, and the 350 Hor. FP and 405 Rem making a single group. The stiffest recoil being, of course, the 350 Hor FP at 2517 fps at 43.5 ft-lbs less 15% due to the Mag-na-ports = 37 ft-lbs. The 300-gr and 405-gr were 32 ft-lbs with the ports.

Mild but effective loads at reasonable ranges. I never adjusted the scope during or after the shooting of those loads as I still hope to do a bear hunt late this summer and fall.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

RIP;

Thanks for the positive comment on P2 of my latest blogs. P3 is now up.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I so wish those 405 grain Remingtons were still available. They were one of my favorite bullets when I could get them.

quote:

Originally posted by The Maz:
I so wish those 405 grain Remingtons were still available. They were one of my favorite bullets when I could get them.

I hoarded a bunch about 20 years ago, and gave some to a son for his #1 Ruger in .45-70. When he sold the #1 Ruger he returned them to me, so I still have about 80. It's a good hunting bullet for anything up to moose as long as impact velocity doesn't exceed about 1800 - 1900 fps. Heavy bone, as in a moose shoulder, I'd try to avoid. Also good for practice. Lung shots ideal on moose, bear and whitetails. Because of the wide-flat meplat they'll work well down to about 1200 fps impact.

BTW, welcome to the most informative and interesting thread on AR, largely due to RIP!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
The adherence of the paint will be the kicker here.
I'm thinking the powder/paint would adhere better with a longer cook time - maybe lower temp - longer cook time will give good results.

Probably so. I tried the cool and quick, it is slightly less effective, leaves a few more shiny spots of exposed lead here and there.
Higher temp/more time allows better flow and coverage, and probably better adherence.

Even 250*F X 12 minutes anneals/softens my heat-treatable, arsenic containing alloy, whether 92-5-2-1 or a 50:50 mixture of that with Linotype.
450*F X 30 minutes does it even more so.

I am thinking that the quenching by water drop from the mould works to harden the arsenic containing alloy, like with the old clip-on wheel weights.
700*F lead to cooling enough to solidify before dropping into water: That is all the heat treat hardening I have been getting.



Linoytpe (no arsenic) does not soften or harden whatever I have done to it,
Linotype doesn't seem to change at all, it stays at BHN 20.9 after water drop from mould, and after powder-coat painting, whether 250*F or 450*F.



The 92-5-2-1, water-dropped, is 24.8 BHN, 4 weeks after casting.
PCP 250* X 12 minutes and water-drop: softens to 20.9 BHN
PCP 450* X 30 minutes and water-drop: softens to 19.3.
But then it age-hardens back to 24.8 BHN after 4 weeks.



Life is simpler now.
There is no need to do more than one coat of paint at 400*F X 20 Minutes with 92-5-2-1,
then let it sit for 4 weeks to "age harden"
back to 24.8 BHN.



Fragile Linotype at about BHN 21 no matter how I paint it.
Tougher and slightly heavier 92-5-2-1 alloy, can be harder than Linotype too.
No matter how I paint it, it age hardens back to about 25 BHN.
My only heat treatment is by going from 700*F to water bucket.

Supposedly one should keep chamber pressure down to about 32,000 psi with a BHN of 25.
I am hoping the gas check and the PC paint allow a bit more pressure tolerance of bullet,
or at least a little higher velocity for same chamber pressure.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
RP3 is now up.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Going to go read it now ...
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Bob,

P3 was a good read, and buy a donkey for the latest load data you posted above, for THE MISSION.

quote:

Originally posted by The Maz:
I so wish those 405 grain Remingtons were still available. They were one of my favorite bullets when I could get them.

Inspirational material from www.bigbores.ca :



+400-lbs suitable for that bullet at impact velocity of about 1800 fps.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

I am coming to my senses on the velocity goal for my 400-ish-grain cast bullets.
Will start low with H4895.
Save the compressed H4895 and 2600 fps MV
and the non-compressed AA-2230 and 2500 fps MV
for the 400-gr Woodleigh and TSimprovedX.

The Hodgdon 2020 Annual Manual shows a load for the .458 Win.Mag. with 400-gr Swift A-Frame.
That is a notoriously sticky, high-pressure, low-velocity bullet.
They load it to 3.220" COL in a 24"-length/ 1-14"-twist barrel with WW brass and CCI 250 primer:

H4895 72.0 grains starting load >>> 2214 fps/ 33,100 CUP ~ 39,058 PSI

H4895 77.0 grains maximum load (compressed) >>> 2349 fps/ 42,500 CUP: LOW PRESSURE MAX LOAD ~ 50,150 PSI

H4895 with and without filler and longer than 3.220" COL
is my starting load for the 400-ish-grain cast bullets of 21 to 25 BHN.

Accuracy is supposed to go south at over 32,000 PSI with BHN 25, according to authorities.
That would be a good research project for The Maz.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

From the "Tough upped partitions" thread, in order to mention a neglected super pair from Nosler,
A WISE MAN SAID:

quote:

Originally posted by machinistbutler:
I am new to the 458, and have been gathering a few components . Your thread on the 458 pushed me over the edge and now have a second rifle coming in from the states.

Was able to source Norma brass , Barnes and some nosler solids here. And have some factory rounds coming in from nosler in 2 weeks, partitions and solids , with the new cz rifle.

Just love touching off those rounds, it is great fun.

And I just ordered one box each of .458-cal/ 500-gr Nosler Partition and Solid.
That is all they had left of them at MidwayUSA, told me to "Hurry, only one box left!"
Partitions are sold out at shop Nosler dot com too, though solids are in stock there.





Great bullets, Noslers.
I could always get higher velocity with the .375/ 300-gr Nosler Partition than with the Swift A-Frame.
Something about the Swift A-Frame made it sticky in the barrel, slower velocity and/or higher pressure.
The only factory ammo I ever had pierce a primer was loaded with .375/ 300-gr A-Frame in .375 H&H.
Remington recalled that ammo.
But hand-loaded in a .375 Wby to only 2600 fps instead of 2700 fps,
the Swift A-Frame sure did a nice job of cutting Kodiak deer in half
so the carcass could be hauled out of the ravine without having to do much knife work.
Made for speedier packing out after the rifle shot, dinner bell for the bears.

machinistbutler,

Thanks for that reminder. I have totally neglected the relatively new .458"/ 500-gr Nosler Partition & FN brass solid.
They will be ideal for the .458 WIN+P.
Use the Nosler Reloading Guide 8 data for the .458 Lott and work up from there.

In 24" Length/ 1:14" Twist barrels for both rifles they show their 500-grainers doing this:

.458 Winchester Magnum loaded to 2092 fps with 108%(C) charge of 68.0 grains of H335. COL 3.320".
Compressed ball powder and low pressure, no doubt !!!

.458 Lott loaded to 2207 fps with 109%(C) charge of RL-15. COL 3.590".
Why did they quit there ? 109 % compressed stick powder, or pressure of 62,500 psi ???

We can do better with the .458 WIN+P using those 500-gr Nosler Partitions and solids.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Looking forward to you giving them a go.

Read a bit about detached retinas, collapsed lungs, broken collar bones,concussions and such, so it just seemed like a cartridge I had to try.

Craig

Thanks for the BHN testing Rip. Great data!

RIP - I'll use some older Remington factory loads with the 450 grain A-Frame as a "reference load" with the newly installed gauges. Once I have a baseline, the real fun can begin!

quote:

Originally posted by machinistbutler:
Read a bit about detached retinas, collapsed lungs, broken collar bones,concussions and such, so it just seemed like a cartridge I had to try.
Craig

Yes, but .458 WIN recoil improves your sperm count !
Effects come with side effects.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum