Have done - you are quick on the draw

Hang on, I've put the point in the wrong place in that bullet length: it is in fact 1.174".

Will fix above for future ref.

sambarman338,

You goaded me into reloading the old QuickLOAD version I have, V.3.5.03, and it is working again.
I refuse to buy it for a third time.

It looks good for WIN-748.
Do not worry about primer, it does not take account of that.
Use whatever is needed for good ignition, and that would be something like your CCI-250 for a ball powder even in the .45-70.

QuickLOAD is bumfuzzled by throat.
It seems to be set up for minimal throat cartridges like the .45-70.

To get close to reality with the .458 WIN throat, adding 10 grains of water capacity to case capacity is a pretty good crutch for QuickLOAD.

The .45-70 loads with WIN-748, no crutches needed:

Brass: 2.095"
Seating depth 0.595" typo-ed from your 0.585" I see now, but you are on the easy side of my number,
no worries if the longer COL by 0.010" fits your rifle.

You did not specify bullet length for a COL, and no matter for the pressure and velocity numbers.
I needed to put in something so said 1.255" for bullet length, resulting in COL of 2.755".
Should work through a Winchester 1886.

Barrel length 24".
Groove diameter was specified as 0.458", bore area 0.162657", seems to be best choice to me.
I changed that from the QuickLOAD default of either 0.456" for SAAMI (wrong, the current SAAMI spec is .458") or 0.457" for CIP default for .45-70.
Start pressure for lead bullet specified was only 1160 psi from QuickLOAD suggestion.
Cylindrical case factor applied.

28,000 PSI and 40,000 PSI MAP approximations with WIN-748: Next two replies below, to ring THE MISSION bell.

Rip ...

47.6 grains for 1646 fps and 28,000 psi:

52.9 grains for 1843 fps and 40,000 psi:



Rip ...

Well,

The bell has been ringing while I posted the above.

Let's see if bcelliott can fine tune that.

I do have a collection of .45-cal muzzleloader sabots that fit .30-cal bullets,
must get around to seeing if any of those will work in the .458 WIN just for giggles.

Rip ...

Thanks RIP,
sorry about my ham-fistedness with the bullet length, maybe bcelliott will refine or confirm the results if he picks up the correct length of 1.174".

Would you say that the 86 Winchester is more in the 18,000 psi bracket and that therefore I should start 6 or 10 per cent below its 47.6-grain 'nominal' figure?

I'm still scratching my head over widening that meplat. Must go back and read your thoughts on that again.

Well, if nothing else, I clicked over to 86, a number meaningful to me, at least

Sam,

When I put in the correct bullet length and changed groove and bore to RIP's dimensions and also changed the start pressure to match RIP's, I got exactly the same numbers as his.

A few caveats: If this bullet is very close to the lands, the starting pressure will be higher. Also, if your batch of powder is fast, start pressure will be higher. If the lead bullet start pressure of 1160 psi is not reasonable, real pressure could be higher. However, since the 1886 is really strong (approaching 50,000 psi), quibbling over a grain or so is probably moot, and RIP's calculations are most certainly very good.

Thanks bc,
sorry about my neglecting and then stuffing up the bullet length. Hope that didn't make too much difference to the calculation.

The powder I was given is probably at least 10 or 15 years old but looks in good condition. I have used some already with 405-grain Woodleighs with no noticed problem.

Do you think I should start loading at 42.8 grains (-10% from the nominal 47.6 grains) or 44.7 (-6%)?

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell guys.
I have more confidence in my old old version of QuickLOAD now.

Here is the printout with the proper numbers:
0.585" seating depth
1.174" bullet length
2.684" COL



I would go start at 45 grains or whatever seems to be actually about 85% to 90% full case with bullet seated.
QuickLOAD may be wrong on % case fill too.
Work up to 95% to 100% full and chronograph along the way.
Stop at 1700 fps or thereabouts.
That would be plenty of thump.
Less velocity for endpoint if less thump desired.
Find a best-accuracy load somewhere along the way.

Rip ...

Honestly, I wouldn't go much lower than 47.6 grains to start, since with this load, the case is only 91% filled, and 748 isn't known to do well with low pressures and space in the case. Your safety margin is quite large with this load.

However, RIP's suggestion going from 45-50 grains is probably safest...

Thanks guys, my cup floweth over.

Now I have come up with another interesting matter: I'll have to make sure I use the long cases to match the COAL I gave you.

As was mooted elsewhere, possibly Cast Boolits, Hornady .45-70 cases seem to be be about 1.5mm shorter than everyone elses. Looking at their handbook's third edition I now realise they considered the proper length for cases was 2.035" even 30 years ago. The once-fired Hornady cases I've got only measure 2.030" yet some of the new Starline ones run to 2.096".

You may recall I had trouble getting Woodleigh 405-grain flat noses to crimp on the cannelure in the Starline cases without touching the rifling. My belief now is that those bullets must have been made to work with cases trimmed to the Hornady specs!

To be sure, can I take it you two think the modern 86 belongs in the 40,000 psi table, though 45 grains is more than 10 per cent below the 'nominal' there?

Whatever, I'm glad of your opinions and efforts because I was originally thinking of starting at 48 or 50 grains.

I'm still a little concerned with how to flatten that meplat.

I have tried to search Lee FN seating plugs. They seem to exist but the local Brownells doesn't carry them. I guess it is an item some distance from arms matters, so might try the US site.


However, since the bullet is possibly on the hard side, I wonder if a tight-fitting sleeve, just the height of the bullet needed, might work, if a flat piece is put on top and given a tap. This could expand the whole body, I suppose, in which case we should know by the difficulty of getting it out.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
To be sure, can I take it you two think the modern 86 belongs in the 40,000 psi table, though 45 grains is more than 10 per cent below the 'nominal' there?
If the Marlin 1895 can handle 40,000 PSI (40,000 CUP is about the same pressure for the .45-70 specifically),
I would say that 42,000 PSI is not a problem for the Miroku, modern steel, Winchester 1886, maybe more.
If it was an antique 1886, I would not do that to it.
For the Ruger No.1/No.3 in .45-70, 50,000 PSI is no problem, of course.


Whatever, I'm glad of your opinions and efforts because I was originally thinking of starting at 48 or 50 grains.

Figure out how much WIN-748 it takes to fill your case 100% with bullet seated.
Then reduce that charge to 90% of fill.
You might even get best results with a single layer of tissue paper/waxpaper (make with hole punch, paper punch)
and a little Dacron or polyester fluff filler on top of that.
Might start and end accuracy search with your first load.

I'm still a little concerned with how to flatten that meplat.

I have tried to search Lee FN seating plugs. They seem to exist but the local Brownells doesn't carry them. I guess it is an item some distance from arms matters, so might try the US site.

However, since the bullet is possibly on the hard side, I wonder if a tight-fitting sleeve, just the height of the bullet needed, might work, if a flat piece is put on top and given a tap. This could expand the whole body, I suppose, in which case we should know by the difficulty of getting it out.

See tutorial on making a flat nose below.
It will allow you to be safe with a tubular magazine,
but maybe you need to get the proper FN mould to make your own without this fuss?
Ring that MISSION bell.

Rip ...

Rip ...

After nose flattening, push the bullet through the .459" Lee sizer again, but nose first this time, in base-pusher mode.
Use some lube for the final sizing.
Or powder-coat the bullets and then size them.
Forget the messy lube stuff.

If your FN meplat is 0.250" or larger diameter already, then you won't have to bother.
If it is only 0.210" diameter to start with, then it will be very easy to enlarge.
Maybe just one tap of the hammer,
or a light squeeze in a large bench vise or little arbor press. (Better.)
You may figure something else out,
but if you are going to be shooting much cast bullets,
made by you or someone else, having the sizer dies is a good idea just to make sure the bullets are proper size.

Rip ...

Chamber length is from breech bolt face to end of chamber neck where the 45-degree chamfer down to throat starts.

The SAAMI chamber length of the .458 WIN is 2.520" minimum for 2.500" maximum brass length.
The SAAMI chamber length of the .458 Lott is 2.810" minimum for 2.800" maximum brass length.

The .458 Lott throat is stingy, eh?

.458 WIN Wildcatting Tip:

Aim for trim-to length of 2.500" and let it grow to 2.505" before you trim.

You will still have more room for brass stretch in firing than does the .458 Lott,
unless you do like Hornady factory ammo and trim the .458 Lott brass to 2.775" to make it easier to fit the box length.

When they made the brass 0.300" longer for the .458 Lott, they forgot to allow for the next step up in action length being only 0.200" longer.
Alas, it is even worse for the .450 Watts Magnum with 2.850" maximum brass length.

Rip ...

.458 Lott versus .450 Watts Magnum: Its a draw ...

https://imgur.com/gallery/0gR0vIs


Rip ...

Thanks for that tutorial and advice, RIP. I do have a large vice and if I can find a little cup or plate to prevent bullets getting chequered noses, will try that first.

Considering the deformed spitzers I have seen and used over the years, a slight variation in the bullets in the magazine probably won't make much difference; by the time I'm using those from down there, the edge has probably gone from my accuracy, anyway. I'll keep some unsquished ones to put up the spout by hand.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
.458 Lott versus .450 Watts Magnum: Its a draw ...

https://imgur.com/gallery/0gR0vIs


Rip ...

Except that James Watts was tons cooler than that other guy.

OK, James Watts was definitely most cool.
Try as we may, no one has found any evidence of
an earlier .458/.375 H&H than the .450 Watts Magnum,
conceived circa 1947 and shootin' by 1949.
Watts also did the .450 Watts Short (2.5") before there
was a .458 WIN from Winchester.
So it was told by James Watts to Cal Pappas, biographer.

Rip ...

The essence of .458 WIN superiority dates back to pre-Nitro-Express days, before that class of cartridges existed, before 1898.

Holland & Holland had a practice of taking a Farquharson rifle originally chambered for a black powder cartridge,
such as the 450/400 3.25" which dated back to the early 1870's,
and re-throating by using a "coning up" of the original short leade to a longer leade.
This readied the rifle for hotter loads with the new "Cordite" smokeless powder.
Actually it allowed the rifle to go easier on the pre-Nito-Express brass, prone to splitting and sticking in the chamber with increased pressures.

"Coning up" would be accomplished by decreasing the angle of the leade, in these leade-only throats.
This would also involve widening the base of the leade by a few thousandths of an inch
if the old neck-2, chamber-ending chamfer into leade is cleaned up completely in re-throating.
It was probably done with a throat-only reamer by hand, probably a piloted, leade-only throat reamer.

For example, a 450 3-1/4" BPE might have had a short throat of leade only:
0.460" diameter at start
1*30'00" leade semi-angle (3-degree cone angle)

H&H-style, coned-up-for-Cordite, leade-only throat on the .458 Winchester Magnum of 1956:
0.469" diameter at start
0*29'30" leade semi-angle (about 1-degree cone angle: 0*59'00")

Just thinking about the .458 WIN being thoroughly H&H from throat to belt might warm the pinky fingers of those with panache on their pith helmets.

Rip ...

An old-style throat that might have been "coned-up" by H&H on a BP rifle to make it ready for Cordite,
in the days before Rigby and Jeffery developed the thicker and stronger Nitro Express brass:

WIN: Without Improvement Needed

Any "wildcatting" of the .458 WIN is merely spicing up the salt with a little pepper:
Long COL loading
Keeping brass at maximum length of 2.500" (do not trim any shorter).

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks for that tutorial and advice, RIP. I do have a large vice and if I can find a little cup or plate to prevent bullets getting chequered noses, will try that first.

You need to support that bullet in a .459" Lee sizer die, with a pusher rod in both ends of the die.
Then squeeze both pusher rods simultaneously with the vise or arbor press.

Or push the bullet into flush with base of die, then
take the pusher rod and insert it into the top of the die
then squeeze the base of the die and the pusher rod at other end of the die, in a vise or arbor press.
Then push the bullet on out the top of the die with your press.

$30 Lee die.
Just squashing the bullets, unsupported, in the jaws of a vise, not so good.
Then you will need a sizer die for sure.

Rip ...

RIP, your take on H&H throating is interesting.

This begs the question, would narrowing the 458's stock throat to start at say 0.460" instead of 0.469" be an improvement?

Why was 0.469" selected in the first place? Was it simply originally a typo and it was really meant to be 0.459" or 0.460"?

JFE,

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.

quote:

Originally posted by JFE:
RIP, your take on H&H throating is interesting.

And it is undeniable that "coning up" was a practice of H&H, to help an old BP rifle that they built, to make the transition to Cordite.

This begs the question, would narrowing the 458's stock throat to start at say 0.460" instead of 0.469" be an improvement?

No. Then you would have to stick to short-nosed bullets like with the CIP .404 Jeffery.
Or you would have to add some parallel-sided free-bore of .001" greater than groove diameter before you started the leade tapering into the bore diameter
That is the route that most modern cartridges have taken.
I did the same to my .404 Jeffery: Added about 0.300" length of PSFB.

Why was 0.469" selected in the first place? Was it simply originally a typo and it was really meant to be 0.459" or 0.460"?

See above.
I used to think the .458 WIN throat was excessively long and shockingly wide at the start of its gradually tapering leade.
No more!
It works.
It lets off pressure, effectively increases case capacity. That is the purpose of free-bore.
And there are no accuracy problems with jacketed and monometal bullets.
Elmer Keith bragged in print about how accurate his .458 WIN rifles were, without exception.
That gradual and long leade just perfectly "leads" the bullets into flying straight.
The only drawback is that soft cast bullets cannot be shot as fast in the long throat as in a short throat, as they will skid in the rifling.
You just have to use heavy lead bullets, sized to 0.460" and keep them down to 1400 fps.
They grab the rifling and spin without smearing if you do that.
Perfectly suitable for bettering the old Sharps buffalo rifles.
For cape buffalo, the 400-grain HV at 2500 fps could hardly be improved upon.
For elephant braining, a 450-grain brass or copper FN at 2350-2400 fps could hardly be improved upon.
If you are old school and want to use 500-grainers at 2200-2300 fps, that is OK, whatever bullet type and COL you like, it can be done.
You can even slow them down to 2150 fps if you want, or just use the plain vanilla, Hornady factory loads if you are not a handloader.

The .458 WIN can do it all.
The .458 WIN can hardly be improved upon.
Don't fiddle with that throat!

I have settled on my deer load.
It's a start on modern gun deer season: