The pilgrimage to the bottom of the BC list might end with the .458/250-gr Barnes TSX-FN Hornady Monoflex with BC currently being advertised at 0.175 according to Hornady.
Length = 1.095" by my measure.



If started off at 3000 fps MV,
at 285 yards it will be down to 1661 fps, which has been reported to kill a deer.
However Hornady recommends lower velocity limit for expansion to be 1800 fps.

If started off at 3000 fps MV, the .458/250-gr Hornady Monoflex will be down to exactly 1800 fps at exactly 250 yards.


KE at muzzle = 4996 ft-lbs, just call it five-K ft-lbs for simplicity.
KE at 250 yards = 1799 ft-lbs, call that one-point-eight-K ft-lbs.

Zeroed 3.00" high at 100 yards,
it tops out at only 3.34" high at 135 yards,
back on zero at 228 yards,
and only -1.91" low at 250 yards.

I like it.
Limited to 250 yards for deer and varmints, it will be a great way to get any young boy off to a grand start in hunting.

Field ready:
The 10-pound rifle recoils at only 36.3 ft-lbs and 15.28 fps.
The 9-pound rifle for the more advanced shooter recoils at only 40.3 ft-lbs and 16.98 fps.
Like the proverbial maiden's caress, for THE proverbial MISSION.

Rip ...

I know you fellas want to stay away from fillers but filling the case over 4759 or aa 2015 with Dacron then sliding your cast in takes that flyer out of the group.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
RIP (and any others who want to chime in) ...

Anyway, at my request, my friend ordered Lyman # 457671 and made a bunch for me. Most of them "keyholed". He made inquiry with Lyman and was told that the long unsupported nose was the culprit -- ergo, they were unstable. In all, I fired close to a hundred and despite varying this and that, I never got decent accuracy so gave up on cast bullets for the .458.

I almost gave up too.
Then I discovered that if you size the bullets to .461" for .459"-grooved .458 WIN
and seat the bullets out LongCOL enough to be as much as 0.100" from contacting the lands
(0.050" or less might be more accurate)
then the world is your oyster regarding cast bullets,
grease lubed or powder-coat paint,
gas check or no.
Make that .460" for a .458"-grooved .458 WIN (minimum SAAMI spec).
Make that .459" for a .457"-grooved .458-WIN-throated rifle.
I am hoping that a .458" bullet is perfect in the .457"-grooved, short-throated, SAAMI .45-70 Govt.
for which the SAAMI minimum spec is .456" groove.

But I still have around 150 of the former batches (465s and 470s) that shot so well in the .45-70s. I've tried a few in the Ruger #1, .458 without great success using H4895, but think I was pushing them too fast, plus still leaving too much vacant space in the case, and too long a "jump" to the lands. (My thinking anyway).

Logical.

So now I've loaded up three (3) seating the bullet longer (3.31" COL), exposing one grease groove, and nearly filling the case with the slowest powder in my possession -- RL-22 (73 grains), ignited bu WLRM primers. That cast bullet has a groove for crimping, then three grease grooves followed by a GC. Bullet length = 1.117" with 0.31" into the case. OD = .459". It is cast at 50% lead, 40% Lino, and 10% tin. (What would be the BHN?).

Obviously it worked. Probably in the desirable 15 to 20 BHN hardness bracket and not brittle.

Anyway, it flattened the bear from a front on shot under the chin and the bullet was never found. It did make exit.

So, my question (not to hijack the current theme) is: Do you think a slow powder like RL-22 that nearly fills the case might give better consistency in bullet velocity which would aid accuracy? Any suggestions? Obviously, I think it might. I don't currently have IMR 4759, though I've used it quite a bit in the past. I want to get away from fillers if possible.

I do have a very good load for the 480 DGX at about 1810 fps, but that gets expensive, so I thought the 465s and 470s might be a good substitute. My calculations suggest that 73 grns of RL-22 should give around 1850 fps.

Thanks...

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

My thinking too, look at this Lyman 457671 target that has three bullets in one hole at 50 yards, then a higher velocity flyer for the fourth shot:



The half-case-full loads of AA-5744 are prone to 1 flyer out of 4 shots, according to that target.
That's OK for plinking and practice loads.
But a full case load, jawohl, that is where it is at !
But with the really slow powders, pressures get so low and only 80% of the powder gets burnt: Your RL-22 probably.
I look for a full case and closer to 100% burn.
Amazingly, QuickLOAD says that AA-2460, H332 and AA-2230 will do that in the .45-70 Govt at 40,000 PSI
with 464-gr PH bullet at deep seated 2.550" COL,
giving close to 1800 fps with 28" barrel
and close to 1700 fps with an 18" barrel !

In a 24"-barreled .458 WIN at only 55,000 PSI the same powders with greater charges for about 95% filling,
ought to do close to 2150 fps with the 480-ish-grain bullets,
AND 100 PERCENT BURN !
The propellant burnt percentages in the 40,000 PSI .45-70 Govt. are only ~95% to 97.5% at best for those three powders.
I like those three powders for their excellent Thermoballistic Insensitivity.

If you want something a little different with a slow powder, extruded, and mildly compressed,
RL-17 might be tops for the .458 WIN.
104% load, about 55,000 psi, 99.1% propellant burn, and close to 2200 fps with 480-grainer bullet,
according to my old version of QuickLOAD, for what it is worth.
Powder lots change,
and QuickLOAD is useless for throat effects.
It routinely underestimates the velocities and overestimates the pressures of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
Start with 72 grains of RL-17 and work up to about 80 grains, or more, in your .458 WIN with 480-grainer.
I mean to try that myself,
for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Thanks RIP;

I don't have QuickLoad but a friend has helped me from time to time with his edition.

And I nearly went with RL-17 (of which I have plenty) thinking it more suitable than RL-15 or H4895. Now I'm going to give RL-17 a try alongside RL-22 (since I have three of those loaded already). Waiting now for better weather.

Thanks also for all those tests you've done and are yet doing!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I know you fellas want to stay away from fillers but filling the case over 4759 or aa 2015 with Dacron then sliding your cast in takes that flyer out of the group.

Fury01,

There is iron in your words.
I would put a nitro card over IMR-SR4759 or AA-2015, then a slice of caulking backer foam rod over that, then snug it all down by seating the bullet. Case full.
Uniform as it gets.
No powder grains snuffed into a soft filler.

I avoid filler with AA-5744 because the manufacturer recommends against it, though some handloaders use filler with that one too.
I do not know what makes AA-5744 special.

But this Indian vows to endeavor to persevere with same-powder, case-filling loads in both the short-throated .45-70 Govt.
and the long-throated .45-70 Elko Magnum (aka .45-2.6"-SWT),
the latter in both .457"-grooved and .459"-grooved rifles with appropriately sized cast bullets.

This will help understand the .458 Winchester Magnum throat effects as relates to various miss-under-estimations and miss-over-estimations by QuickLOAD.

Understanding of the .459"-grooved rifle QuickLOAD comparisons of simulation to reality can then be applied directly to the .458 WIN.
For THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

Thanks RIP;

I don't have QuickLoad but a friend has helped me from time to time with his edition.

And I nearly went with RL-17 (of which I have plenty) thinking it more suitable than RL-15 or H4895. Now I'm going to give RL-17 a try alongside RL-22 (since I have three of those loaded already). Waiting now for better weather.

Thanks also for all those tests you've done and are yet doing!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

My QuickLOAD powder lots may be a reflection of reality "through a glass darkly" but it is a place to hang your hat.

Here are some moderate loads for up to 55,000 psi and 105% fill (both limits apply),
with some powders we have mentioned here, with a 486-grain, hardcast, gas-checked bullet.
These are for 22" barrel so add maybe 25 fps for your 24" barrel.
As always, like a grownup, start low and work upward, from at least 5% below these mid-range-pressure powder charges:

Propellant Type ............... Alliant Reloder-17
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 104
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 81.9
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2194
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 99.1

Propellant Type ............... Alliant Reloder-15
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 102
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 77.2
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2172
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 99.2

Propellant Type ............... Hodgdon H4895
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 105
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 76.4
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2141
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 100.0

Propellant Type ............... Accurate 2460
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 93
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 75.4
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2124
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 100.0

Propellant Type ............... Hodgdon H322
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 95
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 69.4
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2121
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 100.0

Propellant Type ............... Accurate 2230
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 91
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 73.8
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2112
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 100.0

Propellant Type ............... Hodgdon Benchmark
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 95
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 70.7
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2089
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 100.0

Propellant Type ............... Accurate 2015
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 94
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 68.6
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2080
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 100.0

Propellant Type ............... Alliant Reloder-22
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 105
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 80.0
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 1822
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 30,474
Propellant Burnt % ............ 82.6

Many good choices.
I would tend to go with the ones with 100.0% of propellant burnt, and known to have good TBI:
Hodgdon Extreme powders, AA-2460, AA-2230, and some newer powders not even listed in this version of QuickLOAD.

One thing very special about RL-17 is that it will never give any ignition problems.
Any amount of it goes "bang" in a huge case like the 12Ga From Hell, easily set off by a shotgun primer, with any possible bullet weight, light or heavy,
crimped or no crimp.
Flat out works whether a small charge with a filler or 240 grains of it. God save the Queen !

Rip ...

Rip
3/8 or 1/2 inch? Going to give foam rods a try.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

Thanks RIP;

I don't have QuickLoad but a friend has helped me from time to time with his edition.

And I nearly went with RL-17 (of which I have plenty) thinking it more suitable than RL-15 or H4895. Now I'm going to give RL-17 a try alongside RL-22 (since I have three of those loaded already). Waiting now for better weather.

Thanks also for all those tests you've done and are yet doing!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

My QuickLOAD powder lots may be a reflection of reality "through a glass darkly" but it is a place to hang your hat.

Here are some moderate loads for up to 55,000 psi and 105% fill (both limits apply),
with some powders we have mentioned here, with a 486-grain, hardcast, gas-checked bullet.
These are for 22" barrel so add maybe 25 fps for your 24" barrel.
As always, like a grownup, start low and work upward, from at least 5% below these mid-range-pressure powder charges:

Propellant Type ............... Alliant Reloder-17
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 104
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 81.9
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2194
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 99.1

Propellant Type ............... Alliant Reloder-15
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 102
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 77.2
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2172
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 99.2

Propellant Type ............... Hodgdon H4895
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 105
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 76.4
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2141
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 100.0

Propellant Type ............... Accurate 2460
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 93
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 75.4
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2124
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 100.0

Propellant Type ............... Hodgdon H322
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 95
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 69.4
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2121
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 100.0

Propellant Type ............... Accurate 2230
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 91
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 73.8
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2112
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 100.0

Propellant Type ............... Hodgdon Benchmark
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 95
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 70.7
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2089
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 100.0

Propellant Type ............... Accurate 2015
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 94
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 68.6
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 2080
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 55,000
Propellant Burnt % ............ 100.0

Propellant Type ............... Alliant Reloder-22
Loading Ratio/Filling % ....... 105
Charge Weight (grains) ........ 80.0
Muzzle velocity (fps) ......... 1822
Maximum Pressure (psi) ........ 30,474
Propellant Burnt % ............ 82.6

Many good choices.
I would tend to go with the ones with 100.0% of propellant burnt, and known to have good TBI:
Hodgdon Extreme powders, AA-2460, AA-2230, and some newer powders not even listed in this version of QuickLOAD.

One thing very special about RL-17 is that it will never give any ignition problems.
Any amount of it goes "bang" in a huge case like the 12Ga From Hell, easily set off by a shotgun primer, with any possible bullet weight, light or heavy,
crimped or no crimp.
Flat out works whether a small charge with a filler or 240 grains of it. God save the Queen !

Rip ...

Many thanks RIP! That's been very helpful.

I use RL-17 exclusively in my 9.3 x 62. It's the best I've found to this point in time, and load up to 109% density without a hitch.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip
3/8 or 1/2 inch? Going to give foam rods a try.

Half-inch diameter foam wad for the .458.
I would skip the Nitro card and just lay a single thickness of Cut-Rite wax paper over the powder before putting the foam wad in.
A letter-size piece of wax paper can be folded repeatedly until you get 64 wax paper wads from each hammer blow with a .45-caliber wad punch on a wooden board.
Keep punching.

If you do not have a .45-caliber wad punch, get one from Buffalo Arms CO or Track Of The Wolf.
Or use a chamfer-sharpened .458 Lott case mouth and a mallet.
Do not waste a .458 WIN-headstamped case, if you can waste a .458 Lott-headstamped case for tool making.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Many thanks RIP! That's been very helpful.

I use RL-17 exclusively in my 9.3 x 62. It's the best I've found to this point in time, and load up to 109% density without a hitch.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Hell's bells !
That cinches it !
If RL-17 is great in the 9.3x62mm then it will be great in the .458 WIN.
It is a compact powder of high energy content.
Extruded powder, good in compressed loads, and has excellent ignition qualities under all conditions.
To heck with TBI if it can be used at only 55,000 psi, only 104% load ratio/compression, with 480-grainer,
giving over 2200 fps in a 24" barrel.
It will never be over-pressure in hot climates.
Ought to ignite well in cold climates.
Just check your zero again if the season changes, wherever you are.
Of course a seasonal adjustment for cold climates might mean a higher compression load to get pressure back up to 55,000.
Up to 109% for Arctic Load.
104% Equatorial Load.
Use Equatorial Load for "Tropical Load."
Use Equatorial for Arctic conditions too, just verify your zero.
Any powder will have some variation if temperature variation is extreme enough.
Treat all powders with same precautions if going from hot climate to polar hunting.

The CIP 9.3x62mm has a very .458-Winchester-Magnum-like throat.
It is a leade-only throat with a leade angle of only 0*21'29" and length of 1.102" from start of leade to bore diameter. Twist is 1:14.2" (1:360mm)
For comparison:
The .458 WIN's leade-only throat has leade angle of 0*29'30" and length of 1.115" from start of leade to bore diameter. Twist is 1:14".

Relative to caliber, the 9.3x62mm has a longer throat than the .458 WIN !

No wonder it performs all out of proportion to size of cartridge.

Rip ...

I still have a bee in my bonnet about trying AA-2460 in both the .45-70 Govt. "Short Throat" and the .45-70 Elko Magnum "Long Throat"
(aka .45-2.6"-SWT, aka .458 WIN-Flanged)
to see how QuickLOAD does.
I will use filler in the latter, and same pressure in both as predicted by QuickLOAD, for 464-gr PH bullets.
Looking to understand throat effect deficiency in QuickLOAD.

Then some RL-17 loads in the .458 WIN with 480-ish grainers and no fillers.
Maybe Bob will have some data by the time I get around to RL-17.
Doing good has no end.

Rip ...

Rip
You think I have a 458 Lott case in my house? For shame sir!

Fury01,

Sorry, no insult meant. I have not yet gotten rid of all of mine, still have the odd bit lying around to find a use for. Waste not want not:

Thanks to sharpsguy for the idea of using the PH bullet.
In his Shiloh Sharps BPCR at 478-grains and 1267 fps it works wonders.

It is notable that one has to compress the 66.0 grains of GOEX FFFg in his load by almost half an inch to seat the bullet to 2.550" COL.

The 44.4 grains of AA-2460 used in my load was a 96% volumetric load ratio at 2.550" according to QuickLOAD, which seems to be about actual.

I had powder shake with that load.
So I used a filler and allowed it to go to 2.560" LongCOL.

If QuickLOAD is reality-based for the 2.550" COL load with my .458/464-grain hardcast, PC-painted PH,
then the chamber pressure should be 27,891 psi.
28"-barrel velocity should be 1645 fps.
The COL of 2.560" will not increase pressure or velocity, rather, may decrease it insignificantly.
But will the snug filler increase it slightly ?

I will add an extra 0.010" COL to the .45-2.6"-SWT when comparing it to the QuickLOAD prediction.
That will be 3.525" instead of 3.515".

The .45-2.6"-SWT will be charged with 63.0 grains of AA-2460 for a 75% load ratio, requiring filler for sure !
I have a bunch of half-inch-diameter foam wads cut to 1.25" length, and can stack the shorter-cut ones as needed.
Previously I have used no more than a half-inch thickness of these in the .458 WIN.
I think the one-layer thickness (0.0015") of wax paper is a good thing to keep the ball powder from hiding in the wad before ignition.
Expect wads to vanish after ignition.
At 3.515" COL, predicted pressure is 27,852 psi.
28"-barrel velocity predicted is 1885 fps.

This will be done with the Winchester M1885 .45-70 Govt. and the Pedersoli-barreled Ruger No.1 .45-2.6"-SWT.
Both have 28", 1:18"-twist, .457"-grooved barrels.

Then we go to the .459"-grooved .45-2.6"-SWT and .458 WIN LongCOL rifles,
starting at 40,000 psi predicted loads with 480-grainers (home-made cast and store-bought jacketed/monometal) and AA-2460,
then work up to 60,000 psi and beyond in the .458 WIN LongCOL bolt-action rifles.
Then try RL-17 at 104% load ratio with 480-grain DGX to see if it looks like plus 2200 fps at about 55,000 psi, as predicted.

The SAAMI .458 WIN does not lob bullets that bounce off game,
as preached by the evil ones, the .458 WIN deniers.

Rip ...

The preliminaries with the .458/464-gr PH bullet in the Winchester 1885:



I got a break in rain just before dark, light failed and I was unable to do the .45-2.6"-SWT today.
At least I got the above done, have zeroed for 100 yards, and will play at deer hunting again this weekend.
Cast bullet this time, even if it is with a .45-70 Govt.

Notably my load was 58 fps faster than QuickLOAD estimated.
If the .457"/475-grain PH has a BC of .243.
the .458/464-grain PH ought to have a BC of 0.237,
close enough for .45-70-Government work.
Add 14.5 fps for correction of 5-yard velocity to MV.

My lot of AA-2460 has never disappointed.
With 28,000 psi pressure estimation, that is OK, for a starting load,
even if it is actually as much over pressure as it is over velocity according to QL.
I will have to ditch the filler and try it without filler, same charge, just to see what happens,
with the 96% Load ratio/volumetric fill.
Heck, I might even go up another 0.6 grains for a 45.0-grain charge and 97% LR.
45 grains of AA-2460 in a .45-70 is plumb smokeless !

This is evidence that hardcast of .458" diameter work OK with smokeless in a .457"-grooved, short-throated rifle.

If Elmer liked a 400-grainer at 1800 fps in his levers and singles,
I bet he would like a 464-grainer at 1700 fps too.

No wonder there are so many more .45-70 Sharps rifles out there than anything else.
If you are willing to go slumming with smokeless powder,
the .45-70 will beat anything the .45-120 can do with BP.
Just not cricket for the exalted BPCR matches.

Rip ...

Back from another one-day hunt, I was beset by half a hundred wild turkey flapping in from their roost at sunup.
Some landed 50 yards from me, and they all formed up and marched single file silhouetted along the ridgetop above, where runs an old logging road.
Sounded like a bunch of umbrellas opening and closing as they flapped down to the ground.
After that a squirrel came and played ten feet from the bottom of my ladder stand.
I played too, putting my B&C scope reticle on a bunch of turkey and squirrel heads.
The 1885 Winchester points well.

Oh, well, it was a fun day in the woods.
The .457"-grooved .45-2.6"-SWT is next for testing with smokeless and .458/464-gr PH,
to see how those .458"-sized bullets work in a .457"-grooved barrel with long throat and bullet seated LongCOL.

Then the .458"-grooved .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" Ultima Winchester-McGowen, soon as she gets out of the spa,
and all the other .459"-grooved .458 WIN rifles and one Ruger No.1 .45-2.6"-SWT with .459"-diameter grooves, 22"-long barrel.

I will save the .457"/478-gr and .458"/464-gr PH bullets for BP and smokeless loads respectively in .457"-grooved rifles.
With BP I will use the blowtube after each shot, for accuracy checking.

BTW, I just slugged my Pre-Remington Marlin Guide Gun .45-70 Govt.
Grooves are a true 0.458", 6-groove, 1:20" twist, conventional rifling.
Barrel is 18.5" long from crown to boltface.
She will use the same cast bullets as Ultima Winchester-McGowen.

I am switching over to 480-ish-grainers cast with hard alloy,sized to either .460" or .461", to save on shooting those expensive factory 480-grainers,
for powder checking,
for THE MISSION with no end.

The above bullet gets PC-Painted twice, gas check installed and sized to .461",
then heat-treated to as hard as Linotype but not as brittle.
The .461" sizer is then used a second time,
or a .460" or .459" or as small as .458" Lee sizer, for smokeless loads,
in .459", .458", and .457"-grooved rifles.

PC-paint and gas check are the new paper-patch.

Smokeless powder is the modern replacement for black powder.
It really is somewhat of an improvement over BP for overall utility.

Rip ...

Rip question, if you wanted to se the 500gr woodleigh protected point in a cz 550 .458 win mag loaded as long as possible cls to the 3.8" wher would the cannelure ideally need to be, as in how far up from the base of the bullet to take advantage of the cz 550 long mag box ?

Cheers pc

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
Rip question, if you wanted to use the 500gr Woodleigh Protected Point in a CZ 550 Magnum .458 Win. Mag loaded as long as possible close to the 3.8" ...
Where would the cannelure ideally need to be, as in how far up from the base of the bullet to take advantage of the CZ 550 Magnum long mag box ?
Cheers pc

PC,

Thanks for supporting THE MISSION.
That is an excellent question and one for which I have an arguably excellent answer.

First let us recall that the most vehement pooh-poohing of LongCOL loading of the .458 WIN came from ALF.
Yet ALF seems to love the .500 Jeffery, implying nothing wrong with neck tension holding the bullet in place with the .500 Jeffery!

Yet the .500 Jeffery according to the one and only standard for it (CIP) has a neck length of no more than 0.328" at maximum brass length.
That is only 64.3% of caliber for the .500 Jeffery neck length, the most that can possibly grip the bullet,
and it is even less if the brass is trimmed to any amount less than maximum length.

So let us say that the impeccable .500 Jeffery is a model for minimum neck gripping bullet.
If we translate that model to .458 caliber,
64.3% of .458 = 0.294".
That is the minimum seating depth for the heavy .458 WIN bullets.
Place the top of the new cannelure 0.300" from base of the .458/500-gr PP SN bullet by Woodleigh.
Seat the bullet to 0.294" deep.
Crimp with Lee Factory Crimp Die.

The length of the .458/500-gr PP SN is 1.394" according to Woodleigh, SD = 0.341, and BC = 0.378, quite admirable all around.

The nose projection of this bullet in 2.500" .458 WIN brass is 1.100" when seated to 0.294" depth.
COL is therefore 3.600" exactly !!!

Use .458 Lott load data and then add some more powder. You will beat the .458 Lott 3.6" due to the throat of the .458 WIN.

However, 1800 - 2200 fps is the recommended impact velocity window for this bullet, according to Woodleigh.
The top load that Woodleigh shows for the .458 Lott with any 500-grain SN bullet is 2230 fps for the RN SN,
and that bullet has an impact window of 1800 - 2200 fps also, same as PP SN.
That is achieved with 82.0 grains of H4895/AR2206H which is getting close to 100% fill, not compressed.
Same charge with the 500-gr FMJ is compressed, and gives 2240 fps, according to the Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual data for .458 Lott.
There is no impact velocity limit on the FMJ.
FMJ length is 1.388".
RN SN length is 1.305".
PP SN length, again, 1.394".

You should consider working up to that charge with your .458 WIN if you load the .458/500-gr PP SN to 3.600" COL.
The .458 WIN throat allows safety with the PP SN bullet length of 0.006" longer than the FMJ bullet.

And don't forget that the .458 WIN can be used safely with brass as long as 2.510",
since the chamber length is actually 2.520" long before start of case mouth chamfer leading into the leade.
I never trim brass shorter than the SAAMI maximum of 2.500".
I let it grow to 2.510" before I trim.
If it gets to 2.510" long, I trim it to 2.500".

So the maximum COL with the .458/500-gr PP SN for wildcat loading of the .458 WIN LongCOL 3.8" might be as long as 3.610".

The .458/500-gr Woodleigh PP SN is an excellent replacement for the Barnes .458/500-gr TSX which is too long to be stable after impact in any twist rate, at any velocity,
from a practical, man-portable sporting rifle,
even the .460 Weatherby.

Some of the very light and very short .458 bullets can be seated even more shallowly than 0.294" seating depth, in the .458 WIN, if you dare.
Ask Bob Mitchell.

Rip ...

Thanks Rip,

That is indeed a great answer....I may at some stage make contact with Geoff @ Woodleigh and enquire if it is possible to get him to do me some with the cannelure .300" off the base of that projectile.

Would the mathematics also be the same for the 500gr RN and the 550 gr RN ?

I flit between these bullets in my mind and to be honest a RN just looks right in some circumstances.

I have a few Hornady 500 gr RN's on hand along with some 400 gr Woodleigh PP's currently.

I think the cz 550 I am waiting on has what they call the "standard stock" which I am pleased about, if in fact it pans out that they have. It is, to the eye, a slimmer stock than the American, and nicer looking than the Hogs back's Ive owned in the past BUT the hogs back stocks did swing really nicely.

I have the American on my .416 Rigby and its one hell of a lump of wood, reminds me a bit of the A2 stocks.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
You have suddenly "discovered" the 458 Win and the playing with cast bullets and all sorts of other silly stuff like paper patched bullets ! Perhaps you may consider that we did the same but 40 years ago ?

Anyhow enjoy and have fun !

Mr. ALF:

Nay, sir, I have RE-DISCOVERED the .458 WIN after a 35-year estrangement caused by the incessant wailing of the .458 WIN deniers,
those who knew little of which they spoke.

I was fooled by the conspiracy of a cabal of evil-doers promoting their own agendas for monetary gain or false pride.

It was all vanity. I even joined in for a time, creating my own unique caliber, paying for tooling to make the barrels, pursuing custom bullets.
Oh, the shame of it all !

If only I had not gone astray 35 years ago, I would be richer if not wiser.
Alas, wisdom sometimes comes only from many dollars spent and many years of foolery.
But the value of wisdom is great.
Priceless.

The old ways are often the best ways, though I am no Luddite.
I do prefer smokeless powder instead of black powder, in the .458 WIN.
Powder-coat paint is the new paper patch.

Thanks for supporting THE MISSION, ALF.
I suspect you may be coming around to a conversion some day,
to wisdom.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
Thanks Rip,

That is indeed a great answer....

Buy a donkey to you too, PC.

I may at some stage make contact with Geoff @ Woodleigh and enquire if it is possible to get him to do me some with the cannelure .300" off the base of that projectile.

That would be a great idea for all of the Woodleigh .458 bullets except the HYDROs
which have a nice driving band structure for picking your LongCOL.


(Capped COL = 3.707" with 2.500" brass case length.)


(Uncapped COL = 3.555" with 2.500" brass case length.)

I get by with the CH4D Cann-Tool/canneluring tool and Lee Factory Crimper.

Would the mathematics also be the same for the 500gr RN and the 550 gr RN ?

Sure thing, see below.

I flit between these bullets in my mind and to be honest a RN just looks right in some circumstances.

I have a few Hornady 500 gr RN's on hand along with some 400 gr Woodleigh PP's currently.

I think the cz 550 I am waiting on has what they call the "standard stock" which I am pleased about, if in fact it pans out that they have. It is, to the eye, a slimmer stock than the American, and nicer looking than the Hogs back's Ive owned in the past BUT the hogs back stocks did swing really nicely.

True.

I have the American on my .416 Rigby and its one hell of a lump of wood, reminds me a bit of the A2 stocks.

I call it the "Phat American" stock, just for phun.

I first saw one of those CZ Standard walnut stocks in Botswana in 2001. My PH was an appy with one on a .416 Rigby CZ 550 Magnum.
Before that I had only seen the "Lux" hogback. I really like the Standard. It is about like the nicely slim Lux but with a straight comb
and no Bavarian angularities.

Applying the same arithmetic to other bullet lengths and 2.500"-long .458 WIN brass,
for 0.294" seating depth:

400-gr PP SN, 1.152" long: COL = 3.358"
480-gr RN SN, 1.126" long: COL = 3.332"
480-gr RN FMJ, 1.340" long: COL = 3.546"
500-gr RN SN, 1.305" long: COL = 3.505"
500-gr PP SN, 1.394" long: COL = 3.600"
500-gr RN FMJ, 1.388" long: COL = 3.594"
550-gr RN SN, 1.414" long: COL = 3.620"
550-gr RN FMJ, 1.512" long, COL 3.718"

Rip ...

A cannelure centered at 0.294" from base of .458-caliber bullet is a very good idea, whatever the width/length of the cannelure, or weight of the bullet.
Thanks to PC for suggesting this.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I can see no reason to have a Lott but then i do have a very old Watts and a couple of 458's !

ALF is wise !
That is assuming those unspecified "458's" of his are .458 Winchester Magnums, of course.
If one just says ".458" there can be only one meaning for that.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
ZKK 602 and Ruger # 1

AH HA ! .458 WIN LongCOL 3.8" capable !
Both of them !
I am trying to stick to a .458 WIN budget, but if I found either of those in the "used rack" at the local emporium,
it would go home with me.
In order to show some semblance of budgeting, I would try not to do both on the same day.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
A cannelure centered at 0.294" from base of .458-caliber bullet is a very good idea, whatever the width/length of the cannelure, or weight of the bullet.
Thanks to PC for suggesting this.

Rip ...

Cheers Rip. I have the ch4d cannelure tool in my kit somewhere (still packed away from last move) but being a little OCD if possible I'd rather 1x Woodleigh factory cannelure in the Right place....294"

Thankful I have a 458WM in the gun room and it's loaded with 485 Grain Wide Flat Nose Cast bullets!
Putting this thread back on top where the 458WM belongs.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
Rip question, if you wanted to use the 500gr Woodleigh Protected Point in a CZ 550 Magnum .458 Win. Mag loaded as long as possible close to the 3.8" ...
Where would the cannelure ideally need to be, as in how far up from the base of the bullet to take advantage of the CZ 550 Magnum long mag box ?
Cheers pc

PC,

Thanks for supporting THE MISSION.
That is an excellent question and one for which I have an arguably excellent answer.

First let us recall that the most vehement pooh-poohing of LongCOL loading of the .458 WIN came from ALF.
Yet ALF seems to love the .500 Jeffery, implying nothing wrong with neck tension holding the bullet in place with the .500 Jeffery!

Yet the .500 Jeffery according to the one and only standard for it (CIP) has a neck length of no more than 0.328" at maximum brass length.
That is only 64.3% of caliber for the .500 Jeffery neck length, the most that can possibly grip the bullet,
and it is even less if the brass is trimmed to any amount less than maximum length.

So let us say that the impeccable .500 Jeffery is a model for minimum neck gripping bullet.
If we translate that model to .458 caliber,
64.3% of .458 = 0.294".
That is the minimum seating depth for the heavy .458 WIN bullets.
Place the top of the new cannelure 0.300" from base of the .458/500-gr PP SN bullet by Woodleigh.
Seat the bullet to 0.294" deep.
Crimp with Lee Factory Crimp Die.

The length of the .458/500-gr PP SN is 1.394" according to Woodleigh, SD = 0.341, and BC = 0.378, quite admirable all around.

The nose projection of this bullet in 2.500" .458 WIN brass is 1.100" when seated to 0.294" depth.
COL is therefore 3.600" exactly !!!

Use .458 Lott load data and then add some more powder. You will beat the .458 Lott 3.6" due to the throat of the .458 WIN.

However, 1800 - 2200 fps is the recommended impact velocity window for this bullet, according to Woodleigh.
The top load that Woodleigh shows for the .458 Lott with any 500-grain SN bullet is 2230 fps for the RN SN,
and that bullet has an impact window of 1800 - 2200 fps also, same as PP SN.
That is achieved with 82.0 grains of H4895/AR2206H which is getting close to 100% fill, not compressed.
Same charge with the 500-gr FMJ is compressed, and gives 2240 fps, according to the Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual data for .458 Lott.
There is no impact velocity limit on the FMJ.
FMJ length is 1.388".
RN SN length is 1.305".
PP SN length, again, 1.394".

You should consider working up to that charge with your .458 WIN if you load the .458/500-gr PP SN to 3.600" COL.
The .458 WIN throat allows safety with the PP SN bullet length of 0.006" longer than the FMJ bullet.

And don't forget that the .458 WIN can be used safely with brass as long as 2.510",
since the chamber length is actually 2.520" long before start of case mouth chamfer leading into the leade.
I never trim brass shorter than the SAAMI maximum of 2.500".
I let it grow to 2.510" before I trim.
If it gets to 2.510" long, I trim it to 2.500".

So the maximum COL with the .458/500-gr PP SN for wildcat loading of the .458 WIN LongCOL 3.8" might be as long as 3.610".

The .458/500-gr Woodleigh PP SN is an excellent replacement for the Barnes .458/500-gr TSX which is too long to be stable after impact in any twist rate, at any velocity,
from a practical, man-portable sporting rifle,
even the .460 Weatherby.

Some of the very light and very short .458 bullets can be seated even more shallowly than 0.294" seating depth, in the .458 WIN, if you dare.
Ask Bob Mitchell.

Rip ...

Thanks for those reminders, RIP.

In the Rugers #1, including the .45-70 LT, all bullets (regardless of length) were seated between .25" and .30" because of the long throats. So the amount of powder space in the cartridge was always the same. Depending on bullet weights and MV wanted, I chose the powder and amount. Not complicated at all. Most often I also used the Lee Crimp Die. In the 400gr Hawk, it could make a cannelure as though produced at a factory. I have one of each for the .45-70 and .458. Of course, that particular bullet is quite soft being of soft lead and pure copper. The 405gr Rem has the option of two places for crimping. The bottom one is only .22" from the base of that bullet, and I loaded it that way, using the Lee crimp factor for the former CZ550 without any sort of problem, shooting them at about 2400 fps.

As I've written in blogs, never have I had problems loading bullets longer than SAAMI, and often with NO cannelure. IF the case neck provides ample grip on the shank of the bullet, supported by a slightly compressed load of the proper propellant, no bullet has EVER been driven back into the case so much as 0.0001" under recoil from magnums like a 7mm, .300, .340, .375, OR .458 Win Mag or a .45-70! But all bullets, regardless of caliber or weight, MUST be seated straight in the cases. And, I do use a crimp where possible. But many of the Nosler Partitions don't have grooves, or they are in the wrong place for seating long. I seat them long anyway, depending on magazine length and throating. Of course, none of that is an issue with single-shots that have long throats to begin with. My #1s in .45-70 didn't, so I had my second version "improved" by adding 0.30" to the throat. That was by a very competent "smith". It made that one the equivalent of a .458 Win Mag with a 22" tube and a 3.6" box. Anyway, I was getting 2200 fps from the Hornady 500gr and 2300+ fps from the 450 Swift AF, all at safe psi. The powder was H335. I could load more of that into the case than stick powders 75 - 76 grains in fact. Using H4895 or RL-15, 68 was absolute max in volume with bullets seated .25". COL was 3.19 - 3.20". Pressure was less than a previous load tested for me by AA, before the LT. At 2.93" COL, I used 60 grains of AA2015 for 2015 fps at 63,200 psi. And that load was pronounced "safe" in the Ruger #1, .45-70, by the head guy at AA.

We learn "stuff" by testing. But, apparently, no one had done what I'd done with Rugers #1 in .45-70, if the surprise of the chief ballistician was any indication to that point in time -- over twenty years ago.

The same thing has happened re the .458 Win Mag. When I published my loads from the CZ550 on this forum over a decade ago, I was shot down by the moderator and just about everyone else who were "hot" on the .458 Lott, and some other "new" creations. I said then, that not only could a .458 Win equal the Lott, but slightly surpass it in ballistics due to its long throat -- and seating bullets accordingly.

I then left this forum.

But Stradling, and then RIP have not only salvaged that idea, but RIP in particular has advanced, far beyond expectations, the unbounded possibilities of the greatest big bore ever in the .458 Win, and he's not done yet!

Thank's again RIP!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
Thank you for that bit of history on .458 WM on this forum.
I recently read another bit of .458 history from
PO Ackley and plan to copy it and post here in this thread.

BUMMER - having difficulty making the load copies from PO Ackley manual large enough to read after posting, but I will tinker again after our turkey dinner.

MEANWHILE, THE BOTTOM LINE:
PO published his 500 grain loads with 3031 and 4198 at 2338 and 2363 fps. These were HIS loaded ammo, not Winchester advertising claims.
Those seem to be well up into the "acceptable" range .458 velocities.

My past use of his 160 grain loads for my Model 1892 .357 rifle were right on the money.

Hi Saeed!

You comment on in the 458 Win Mag thread has stuck
in my head..

Originally posted by Saeed:
The 458 Winchester Magnum has nothing wrong with it.

It performs just like all the old cartridges it was supposed to replace.

But, today there are many cartridges that are better than it.

Please take a few moments and elaborate on some
cartridges you feel are better ones.

Thank you



Got the above message from one of our members.

From what I understand, the 458 Winchester Magnum was developed to duplicate the ballistics of some of the old cartridges, and does not require a long magnum action.

Its performance duplicated the performance of the cartridges it was designed to replace.

Nothing wrong with that as it stands.

But. modern developments in cartridge designs have not stood still.

The 458 is supposed to be used against large, thick skinned, dangerous game animals.

It will kill them just as any other cartridge in that class would.

But, I personally prefer higher velocity than the 458 develops.

In fact, I have several hundred rifles, and not one 458 Winchester.

Anything from the 375 H&H and up, and the various 416 calibers, are preferable to me than the 458 Winchester Magnum.

The reason I developed the 375/404 was that I was not happy with the velocity developed by the 375 H&H and I preferred a non belted case to use.

"But today there are many cartridges that are better than it"

For what?

"many cartridges"? In over 60 years of hunting, I've used most of the "standard" cartridges from .22 Hornet to the .30-06, and magnum cartridges from 7mm to .458 Win, so what are those "many cartridges that are better than it"? Your wildcat .375 (now the .375 RUM)? A .375 is a .375", no more, no less. Shooting "flatter" does that make it "better".

My .458 Win Mag will fire a 300gr at 2980 fps, a 400gr at 2590 fps, a 500gr at 2316 fps. Or, if I want, a 400gr at 1200 fps, a 250gr at 1000 fps, etc, etc, and etc.

Will your .375 do any of that? Oh yes, the 300 at 2980+ ?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Well said.

Let the hunters pay their money, take their choice, and live with the results.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
"But today there are many cartridges that are better than it"

For what?

"many cartridges"? In over 60 years of hunting, I've used most of the "standard" cartridges from .22 Hornet to the .30-06, and magnum cartridges from 7mm to .458 Win, so what are those "many cartridges that are better than it"? Your wildcat .375 (now the .375 RUM)? A .375 is a .375", no more, no less. Shooting "flatter" does that make it "better".

My .458 Win Mag will fire a 300gr at 2980 fps, a 400gr at 2590 fps, a 500gr at 2316 fps. Or, if I want, a 400gr at 1200 fps, a 250gr at 1000 fps, etc, etc, and etc.

Will your .375 do any of that? Oh yes, the 300 at 2980+ ?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

It is not a competition.

But, anything, under hunting conditions, the 458 can do my 375/404 will do better.

The reason I developed the 375/404 was that I was not happy with the velocity developed by the 375 H&H and I preferred a non belted case to use.

Personal preference it seems = Better

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
The reason I developed the 375/404 was that I was not happy with the velocity developed by the 375 H&H and I preferred a non belted case to use.

Personal preference it seems = Better

That the same reasoning Hornady and Ruger had when they introduced the 375 Ruger

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It is not a competition.
But, anything, under hunting conditions, the 458 can do my 375/404 will do better.

Oh yeah?
Which makes a better .410-shotgun imitation?
The .458 WIN is the WINNER in all-around versatility.



And what Bob said.

Rip ...

OK, so we have established that the .458 WIN is the most versatile and useful rifle ever created.
Saeed's .375/404 Jeffery might have a slight advantage at long range,
but a different approach with the .458 WIN might allow it to compensate for any weakness.
500-600 yards is plenty far.
I doubt Saeed would want to shoot past that,
good sport that he is.
Well, we can do that with the proper bullet and the proper trajectory.
Just need to pick the right bullet.

Rip ...