Anticipatory review:



About to find out how much weight will come off of the above rifle:

Reduce barrel contour from #5 chrome-moly to #4 stainless and increase caliber from .416 to .458,
and no secondary recoil lug on barrel of .458 due to full bedding block of new stock: MINUS a half pound ?
Replace 3-pound walnut factory stock with 2-pound composite B&C Medalist stock: MINUS a whole pound .



.458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" rifle weight: About 7.625 pounds bare/empty ?

Will have to go with a very minimal Single-Seyfried-Schtick on the rear base only, to make that weight:



Rip ...

Now we’re back to talking 458WM business!! 7.5 with a full length barrel. A hunting machine for all seasons!

Bobbarrella .458 WIN seems to want to shoot these Bubba-ed 480-grain XTSX bullets.
I am going to go back to the range with a shovel and see if I can dig up any from the dirt berm.






Rip ...

A farewell to smokeless and powder-coat paint and gas checks for Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger.
She seems to want to shoot.
Hereafter it is BP, wheel weights, wax paper, and beeswax and olive oil for Goldie:






For THE MISSION, above was copied from the .45-70 thread.
I will be shooting these "moderate" smokeless loads in the 22"-barreled little .45-100-2.6" Ruger No. 1 and the various .458 WIN rifles.
Faster ones too.

Heck, just about any cast bullet works well in the .458 WIN with smokeless if you size it 0.002" bigger than groove diameter and powder-coat paint it.

For BP: Size bullets to groove diameter of barrel (or .001" smaller than groove diameter of barrel) and grease the grooves of the bullet,
wax paper between bullet and powder,
and compress that BP anywhere for 0.030" to 0.495", and be consistent.
Long-seated paper-patched bullets work well in the .458 WIN, even with a 1:14" twist.
I am about to see how the deep-seated grease-grooved bullets work in the .458 WIN throat with
1:14", 1:18", and 1:20" twists.

Rip ...

I'm amazed you have the time to research all this stuff, RIP. Do you have your own range in the back yard?

sambarman338,

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.
You know I take forever to get anything done.
If I had my own range in backyard, this thread would be past 400 pages by now.

Rip ..

Sized to .457" for use with BP in .457"-grooved Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger, Lyman 457121 "Parker Hale"
casts at .456" in pure lead, I reckon.
A little bigger in harder alloys:



It is actually a muzzle loader bullet for .451"-bored cylindrical Whitworth-type ML.
Seems to work wonders for sharpsguy when made from WW/lead-50/50, lubed with beeswax and olive oil,
and powered by BP.

Sam Fadala's Lyman ML manual data:



Portrays the PH as having a BC of only 0.243 ...
At 1338 fps MV the mid-range trajectory for a 600-yard zero: FUN!

Rip ...

If BC of the 475-grain PH is 0.243,
SWAG of the BC for a 500-grain RCBS = 0.243
X (500/475) = 0.253





The .45-2.6" Starline brass is 2 grains of water bigger than the Hornady .458 WIN 2.5" brass:
Close enough to swap load data between the 2.6" case and the 2.5" case, if the two rifles have same groove diameter of barrels and same throats!

Rip ...

Could that be the bullet for .458 owners who don't like to clean their rifles? With the right lubricant, could the regime be be similar to that for a .22RF?

I am suspecting the .457"-grooved Goldie Pedersoli will be better with BP and grease-grooved "PH" as well as paper-patched bullets,
than .459"-grooved Bobbie Boom-Boom Ruger,
but Bobbie was not too awfully bad with paper-patched, .451"/530-grain slicks from BACO:

Paper-patched COL of 3.697" fit Bobbie's ".458 WIN Flanged" throat,
.458 WIN COL would be 3.597":





Flyers ? Might be eliminated by smaller groove diameter of Goldie?

Bobbie, .459" groove, 1:20" twist:



Goldie, .457" groove, 1:18" twist:



AA-5744 was aborted after trying the paper-patched with 40 and 42 grains for charges in Bobbie.
They patterned poorly, like a bad shotgun.

Big question is how is Goldie going to do with the greased "475-grain" PH and BP?
I am working on it, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Could that be the bullet for .458 owners who don't like to clean their rifles? With the right lubricant, could the regime be be similar to that for a .22RF?

Actually, sharpsguy has found that the .457"/475-gr "PH" bullet works like that in his Shiloh Sharps with .458" barrel-groove diameter
(bullet diameter 0.000" to 0.001" smaller than barrel groove diameter),
and beeswax and olive-oil lube in those 7 grooves.
He hunts it all day, killing near and far without a care for fouling.
At days end he blows some breaths through the barrel, patches out the softened BP fouling with a dry patch, followed by a patch wetted with saliva, then a few dry patches, then a patch with olive oil on it lightly, and he is good to go tomorrow.
Add duplexing of the BP and it would really be low fouling, basically no BP fouling.
Lead fouling is not an issue with proper fit of bullet and proper bullet and lube,
and no excess of olive oil left in the barrel.
Run a dry patch through it next morning before resuming the bagging well.

I will vouch for double-powder-coat-painted bullets with smokeless powder, and about 20 BHN hardness of bullets, up to 2150 fps,
with bullets sized .002" bigger than groove diameter of barrel, gas-checked or plain-based with the powder-coat paint serving as gas check.
Clean on Sunday and shoot all week.

Rip ...

Saliva, RIP? This brings to mind Hemingway's warning that barrels in Africa before non-corrosive priming had to be flushed with water after shooting, even if you had to make it yourself

Water-wetted patch is also approved by sharpsguy.
Saliva on the fly if bottled water is not handy.
I bet one patch wetted with urine instead of saliva would work to soften that BP fouling.
Might even be better ! Need to ask sharpsguy if he has ever resorted to that.
Patch it out with dry patches pronto so ammonia does not form in the barrel.
We mustn't have urinary retention in our barrels.

Rip ...

McGowen No.4 Sporter Contour, stainless, 6-groove, 1:14" RH (clockwise) twist, .458 barrel:

My dominant eye, right-eye view of scale above, my left-eye view of scale below,
switching eyes can make it weigh less:

To nearest 1/1000th inch:

23" barrels have always been a favorite of mine.
0.675" muzzle diameter is actually thicker than a CZ 550 Magnum .458 WIN factory muzzle at 25" length,
which is about 0.670".
Ditto the SIG Arms Magnum Mauser .450 Dakota which is 0.668" for muzzle diameter at 25" length.
There should be no flies on 0.675" diameter muzzle at 23" length, leaving knoxform cylinder full length as possible.
The minimum-spec groove diameter of 0.458" (Thanks McGowen Precision Barrels, LLC !) should mean it will not be slow,
compared to most 23-inchers, on a Winchester M70 Classic .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6".

Rip ...

For most .459"-grooved, SAAMI .458 WIN rifles,
the 480-grain Hornady DGX can be loaded to a mere 3.340" COL, and less than 60,000 psi.

From that bullet and COL, MV produced by 77.0 grains of AA-2460 in the following barrel lengths:

25": 2292 fps
24": 2278 fps
23": 2262 fps
22": 2245 fps
21": 2227 fps
20": 2207 fps

A 23"-barreled rifle with .458" groove diameter will probably shoot the same load at a wee bit higher pressure than 55,000 psi and velocity
a wee bit higher than 2262 fps.

In other words, it will be easy to do 2150 to 2200 fps with 480-grain-bulleted "Tropical" loads.
Plumb efficient.

Rip ...

Nice lookin' barrel. should make for a nice lightweight rifle. I like the diameter. people might think its a .375 or a .338 until they see the big hole in the end!

victor1050,

Thanks for the reply.
Yep, a stealth .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6",
with blood-red spider webbing on a black stock:



"Bloody Mary McGowen-Winchester" will make bloody big holes through anything, to paraphrase Finn Aagaard, Patron Saint of the Four-Five-Eight.
Is a bear Catholic?
Does the Pope do number two in the woods?
He bloody well does if nature calls !

Finn Aagaard's Westley Richards Mauser .458 WIN had a 23" barrel.
Amen.
I have decided not to profane Bloody Mary with a muzzle brake.
Will put a barrel-band front sight on her.

Rip ...

RIP,

I'm looking forward to seeing that one!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

Me too !
For THE MISSION !

If the BP load shown below works in the .45-100 2.6" SWT at 3.035" COL,
it will work in the .458 WIN at 2.935" COL,
with properly sized bullet for .458"-grooved .458 WIN SHORT COL:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
RIP, glad to see you've already visited the 525 grain [actually, iirc 539 grain] Beartooths, and with that #1 have most likely visited them a bit faster than me, I believe those bullets will draw down nicely going through a Marlin, I never ran into any excessive pressure issues with my loads.

And you're most welcome on the brass, I know you'll put it to good use.

Jerry,

I just googled your bullet and snagged those pictures of the 525-gr Pile Driver. I have not tried them myself, but I am sure they are good.

My RCBS 45-500 FNGC "Smokeless Imitator" of the PH:
It has been lost in tracking. First time MidwayUSA ever screwed up after dozens of orders over the decades.
I am giving them until Monday, then I get to call them again and get them to fix the problem. Free shipping my ass!

Your brass donation is getting good use, thanks again. I primed with CCI BR-2 since you and Bill both recommend that primer for BP.
I am starting off with 18 pieces of it with 18 PH bullets,
first time I ever tried indexing the bullets:





Lube will be 50:50-BO (Beeswax & Olive oil).
Circle Fly Nitro Card over powder, wax paper single layer (Cut-Rite) between card and bullet.
COL 3.035" or whatever covers all the grease grooves with brass.
They won't be as impressive looking in a bandolier as paper-patched bullets are.
It will be interesting to see how they work in the .458 WIN throat of my .45-100 2.6" Sharps Straight Winchester-Throated.
If not so good, then I will have to go to the SAAMI .45-70 Govt. "Short Throat"
with 66 grains of FFFg, straight BP,
as per sharpsguy.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
For most .459"-grooved, SAAMI .458 WIN rifles,
the 480-grain Hornady DGX can be loaded to a mere 3.340" COL, and less than 60,000 psi.

From that bullet and COL, MV produced by 77.0 grains of AA-2460 in the following barrel lengths:

25": 2292 fps
24": 2278 fps
23": 2262 fps
22": 2245 fps
21": 2227 fps
20": 2207 fps

A 23"-barreled rifle with .458" groove diameter will probably shoot the same load at a wee bit higher pressure than 55,000 psi and velocity
a wee bit higher than 2262 fps.

In other words, it will be easy to do 2150 to 2200 fps with 480-grain-bulleted "Tropical" loads.
Plumb efficient.

Rip ...

For readers that may not be aware, the crimp groove on the 480 gr Hornady bullets is designed for optimal use in the 450NE. If crimped into the crimp groove in a 458WM case the OAL is 3.20”. Of course you can use a Lee FCD to crimp in place to achieve a longer OAL.

I purchased a box full of 458 components, reloads and factory ammo. In amongst them were some reloads using Hornady 480gr SN and FMJ bullets. Most of the reloads had popped their crimp. I rarely use other people’s reloads and pulled them apart. They were loaded with 71gr of badly crushed powder. In fact it was crushed and had clumped that badly I had to prod it out using a small screw driver.

It’s also worth pointing out that Woodleigh make 2 versions of their 480 gr RNSP and 480gr FMJ bullets, the original (#24 & #25) for use in the 450NE and one with dimensions and crimp groove location optimised for use in the 458WM (#24A & #25A).

quote:

Originally posted by JFE:
For readers that may not be aware, the crimp groove on the 480 gr Hornady bullets is designed for optimal use in the 450NE. If crimped into the crimp groove in a 458WM case the OAL is 3.20”. Of course you can use a Lee FCD to crimp in place to achieve a longer OAL.



Correcto mundo.
I use a CH4D canneluring tool as well as the Lee Factory Crimp Die to achieve 3.340" COL
with the Hornady .458/480-gr DGX.


78.3 grains of AA-2230 is the Hornady manual's maximum load for the 480-grain DGX, where they say it does 2200 fps in a 24" barrel with the short-COL loading on the factory cannelure.

I purchased a box full of 458 components, reloads and factory ammo. In amongst them were some reloads using Hornady 480gr SN and FMJ bullets. Most of the reloads had popped their crimp. I rarely use other people’s reloads and pulled them apart. They were loaded with 71gr of badly crushed powder. In fact it was crushed and had clumped that badly I had to prod it out using a small screw driver.

Obviously a poor load if powder is compressed with only 71 grains of unspecified powder.
77.0 grains of AA-2460 is about 95% volumetric fill with the 480-grain DGX at 3.340" COL, a SAAMI-satisfying load if there ever was one.
The velocity of that load in a 25-1/8" Shilen barrel (0.459"-groove, 1:14" twist) was 2292 fps MV
(calculated from observed 2278 fps for 5-yard instrumental velocity, and assuming BC = 0.285).

It’s also worth pointing out that Woodleigh make 2 versions of their 480 gr RNSP and 480gr FMJ bullets, the original (#24 & #25) for use in the 450NE and one with dimensions and crimp groove location optimised for use in the 458WM (#24A & #25A).

We have covered that previously, on this thread, but thanks for reminding us, about the two different versions of the Woodleigh .458/480-gr RN SN.



Impact velocity recommendation for both Woodleigh RN SN 480-gr bullets is 1800-2200 fps, which the .458 WIN-SAAMI is capable of exceeding.
I prefer the Hornady DGX 480-grainer for its gilding-metal-covered steel jacket and bonded core,
better at withstanding the +2200 fps impact velocity of the standard .458 WIN-SAAMI.
The Woodleigh Hydro .458/480-gr bullet is OK at +2200 fps too, of course.
I am going to go out on a limb and predict that the .458/480-gr XTSX Copper Buffalo Buster is also suitable
for impact velocities of greater than 2200 fps.




Rip ...

Got a new mold from Tom @ Accurate Molds, the 46-500L2. I have a number of Tom's molds so going off how my lifetime stash of WW metal works in his molds I ordered mine cut at .460" knowing that it would fall from the blocks .461"-.462". It did just that measuring .4615" x .462" so it was an easy trip through the .461" H&I die. Bullet is 1.150" long with gas check installed and weight 505 grains. Bullet has two crimp grooves and the rear most one leaves .460" in the case. Data used was for Hornady Interlock 500gr. RN soft point #4504. Shot the following loads this morning at the farm:
WW brass, CCI 250, LBT Blue lube, air cooled wheel weighs, COL 3.130". Lee FCD

74.0 gr. RL-15 = 2044 fps
74.0 gr. H4895 = 2218 fps
74.0 gr. Norma 202 = 2093 fps
72.0 gr. X-terminator = 2116

and because I have a bunch of 1970's production IMR 3031 and 4064 my Pop got at an estate sale:

65.0 gr. 3031 = 2038
65.0 gr. 4064 = 1940

Rifle was a 70's era Ruger No.1 (slugs .458")and all speeds are 5 shot averages with chrony 15 feet in front of muzzle. The IMR loads are way under max obviously. The Ramshot X-terminator powder is Belgium production. According to Western powders as of 2016 X-terminator and Accurate 2230 are the same powder made in Florida. The RL-15 loads were accurate but were noticeably softer recoiling, softer muzzle blast, and muzzle report. I plan on inching up the charge a little more towards 76.0 grains. The Norma 202 load is .5 grain below max but Norma is using their cases in the data.

quote:

Originally posted by admiral:
Got a new mold from Tom @ Accurate Molds, the 46-500L2. I have a number of Tom's molds so going off how my lifetime stash of WW metal works in his molds I ordered mine cut at .460" knowing that it would fall from the blocks .461"-.462". It did just that measuring .4615" x .462" so it was an easy trip through the .461" H&I die. Bullet is 1.150" long with gas check installed and weight 505 grains. Bullet has two crimp grooves and the rear most one leaves .460" in the case. Data used was for Hornady Interlock 500gr. RN soft point #4504. Shot the following loads this morning at the farm:
WW brass, CCI 250, LBT Blue lube, air cooled wheel weighs, COL 3.130". Lee FCD

74.0 gr. RL-15 = 2044 fps
74.0 gr. H4895 = 2218 fps
74.0 gr. Norma 202 = 2093 fps
72.0 gr. X-terminator = 2116

and because I have a bunch of 1970's production IMR 3031 and 4064 my Pop got at an estate sale:

65.0 gr. 3031 = 2038
65.0 gr. 4064 = 1940

Rifle was a 70's era Ruger No.1 (slugs .458")and all speeds are 5 shot averages with chrony 15 feet in front of muzzle. The IMR loads are way under max obviously. The Ramshot X-terminator powder is Belgium production. According to Western powders as of 2016 X-terminator and Accurate 2230 are the same powder made in Florida. The RL-15 loads were accurate but were noticeably softer recoiling, softer muzzle blast, and muzzle report. I plan on inching up the charge a little more towards 76.0 grains. The Norma 202 load is .5 grain below max but Norma is using their cases in the data.

admiral,

That is some great support of THE MISSION, thanks.
I will look up that mould for fun:


I suspect that bullet will be accurate in the .458 WIN and a great killer of big game.
I like it.

Compare to this one, also with "Huge front band to fill very long throat. Double crimp groove."
Truncated-cone nose instead of ogived:



Have to see if MidwayUSA is going to come through on my RCBS 45-500 FNGC, lost in shipment.


Rip ...

Little side track on THE MISSION trail:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
Mike, a Shiloh Sharps is unlike other rifles in a lot of respects. For one, it is a rifle you LIKE to shoot. A lot ...

A 45 3 1/4, or 45-120, if you prefer, doesn't give anything approaching decent accuracy if you load it down. It takes a 500 to 540 grain bullet and 105 to 120 grains of good black powder to make one come alive. They WILL shoot if you figure out a good load, and they are a hell of a hammer, but they quit being fun in short order.

There is a happy solution to this ...

Maybe another happy solution will be the .45-2.6" SWT with 475-ish-grain PH.
80 grains of FFg goes in nicely with less than 0.3" of powder compression to seat the PH to 3.035" COL, exactly:



I am amazed at how easy it is to produce such exact uniformity in loading this,
with a card wad and a single thickness of wax paper between the BP and grease-grooved bullet.
I have learned the indexing the bullet trick too, my variation of a sharpsguy technique.
Will see if the 0*29'30" leade-only throat works with deep-seated greaser and short-COL.

Rip ...

If that bullet in the .45-2.6"-SWT with .457"-groove and 1:18" twist will SHOOT,
a BP load in the .458 WIN with .458" or .459" groove and 1:14" twist will be a HOOT
(with same alloy and bullet properly sized to groove diameter or 0.001" smaller)
as would be a 540-grainer with BP to BOOT.
That would be a "Shades of Selous" SALUTE.

Rip ...

4sixteen's load with 300-gr TSX FB in a Ruger No.1: 2600 fps:


Bob Mitchell loads with same bullet in his .458 WIN Ruger No.1 are +2800 fps,
dare we say how high he has gone?

How about the 300-gr TSX FN FB at 2400 fps in one of those Marlin 1895 rifles?



I wonder if 100 grains of molten lead could be poured into that FN hollow point?
That would move it's center of gravity forward a bit.
Might become a 400-gr Elmer Keith lever-action load at 1800 fps.
Might become a 400-gr .458 WIN Load at short-COL 2400 fps.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Now that is an interesting idea...
check the volume of the cavity in MLs or micro MLs using a syringe to calculate volume and convert volume to mass in lead to get a rough amount of grains of lead. I think if it weighs 350 grains, that would still make it worthwhile. Lots of work, but if you drill out the ass end of it and filled both holes you would make a bubba A-Frame out of a Barnes TSX lol

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Not to forget the smokeless Marlin .45-70 shooters,
4sixteen's load with 300-gr TSX FB in a Ruger No.1: 2600 fps:


How about the 300-gr TSX FN FB at 2400 fps in one of those Marlin 1895 rifles?



I wonder if 100 grains of molten lead could be poured into that FN hollow point?
That would move it's center of gravity forward a bit.
Might become a 400-gr Elmer Keith lever-action load at 1800 fps.
Might become a 400-gr .458 WIN Load at short-COL 2400 fps.

Rip ...

That 300-gr TSX FN FB holds 6 grains of water in the hollow point.
If lead specific gravity is about 11.3, that means about 67.8 grains of lead could be added, for a ".458/367-gr XTSX FN FB Leaded."
That might spiff up a load.

Rip ...

Was in one of my favorite hunting spots on Monday, 14th/19. Beautiful fall day. Had three tags: bear, small game and wolf. And new load for the Ruger Tropical in .458. Load the same as in old Remington brass, but now in new Hornady brass. Had not re-sighted the rifle.

Spent two hours using the electronic caller, standing, waiting, then moving to different location. Nothing moving, not even a mouse. But enjoyed myself immensely, even having to straddle 20" deadfalls!

Shot a 13" hard maple on the way out: from about 50 yards missed dead center by 1.5" from a quick point and shoot. The 300gr TSX
started to slip slightly right on the curvature of the tree before it dug in, penetrated 9 " then hit another smaller maple eight feet slightly off to the right and made a significant impact in that tree, looking like it may have encountered it slightly unstable, but nonetheless penetrated quite deeply but did not exit. I was impressed to say the least.

On Monday of this week I went to the range to check poi of the load in the new Hornady brass. Ambient conditions were about the same as the previous test using the load in Remington brass.

Results: exactly +3" at doc. MV avg. corrected to muzzle = 2777 fps/5136 ft-lbs. That was exactly 25 fps faster from the Hornady brass and +1.5" higher. Still at sub-MOA however from three shots.

Recoil is relatively mild from the 10.75 lb Ruger, and never noticed recoil in shooting the tree! Also, carrying a 10.75 lb rifle in those hunting conditions is less stressful than being 20 to 30 lbs overweight!

For The MISSION!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Great work, Bob.
Your latest blog entry on "bullets" was very interesting. I could not agree more with your take on the subject.

www.bigbores.ca

I will load some .458 WIN and .45-2.6"-SWT with the 300-gr TSX for deer.

While awaiting projects and "the hunt," I also continue to have fun with "experimental bullets."
The 480-gr XTSX Copper Buffalo Buster was a smashing success.
That will always be in my repertoire.

Now I have an idea for a "Pest Control" bullet.

My 300-grain TSX options include previous TTSX, most recent trial of TSX FB, and now the TSX FN FB which may be modified for "pest control" work.

Review of the TSX FB and TSX FN FB:

"Pest Control" rounds are meant only for use in single-shot rifles such as the Ruger No.1, or double rifles.
NEVER in lever-action or bolt-action rifles,
NEVER in magazine rifles of any sort.
Avoid dropping them on their noses while loading.
Kids: Do not try this at home without adult supervision.

Rip ...