Consider this to be for 24"-barreled rifles keeping to the SAAMI shackles,
the Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual data for the .458 Winchester Magnum: For THE MISSION !

Rip ...

Ron,

My guess on the thread asking about Re 15 and 458/500 grain was close. All Re 15 you can fit for 2000 f/s plus a bit.

Just what I needed.

The idea is to use the .458” balls and not the sabots. The intention is to engage the rifling and spin the balls. You could size them down and paper patch them to increase bearing surface to ensure spin. Benefits? Higher velocity and better accuracy. Spin those lead marbles!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
here are some .458” round balls that you could shoot as is or resize and patch for more grip when you twist
http://hawkbullets.com/muzzleloading.html

Looks like .457"-458" Hawk bullets in .50-cal sabots.
No use.

boom stick,
You post a link with zero listings of roundballs on it, only .50-cal sabots with .457"-458" Hawk bullets,
then you tell me to find a .458" round ball there.
That is like telling me to go sit in the corner of a round room.
Are you a co-conspirator of the .458 Winchester Magnum Denial?

The paper-patched lead roundball should be of bore diameter and patched up to groove diameter.
The .458" lead round ball is not what I need.
The ones I have that are .451" nominal (mostly a little bigger, none smaller) will do fine for paper patching.
Thank you for that idea,
will try it in the 1:20" and 1:18" .458 WinFlanged rifles before trying it in the 1:14" .458 WIN.
Maybe a paperpatched roundball could work in a fast twist.
If accurate enough for barking squirrels,
that would be cool.
If no good,
it has served to support THE MISSION. Thanks again.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Ron,

My guess on the thread asking about Re 15 and 458/500 grain was close. All Re 15 you can fit for 2000 f/s plus a bit.

Mike,
Correct you are.
I started using VARGET instead of RL-15, long ago.
Labman just wants to burn up a bunch of RL-15 he has on hand. Hopefully his is all of the same lot and he won't have the lot-to-lot variability issue with his.
I had multiple lots of RL-15, and I got rid of mine too,
with a match in my backyard.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
Just what I needed.

You are most welcome. Shoot that RL-15 in good health. You should have no trouble with using it for plinking.
Then get something better.

For THE MISSION:
I have been distracted by too many pets lately, old dogs and old ladies.
I'll get to shootin' ASAP.

Rip ...

From the .45-70 thread:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...221006452#1221006452

quote:

Originally posted by JFE:
If you think you need to go to that heavy a bullet for moose then a cast bullet like RCBS 45-500 FNGC is quite a useful mould to use. The crimp groove is in the right place for use in a Marlin 1895. Bullets drop closer to 520gr when cast from Lyman No.2.

Beartooth bullets used to publish loads for their heavy “Piledriver” cast pills doing around 1600 FPS.

RIP - the RCBS mould might also be a useful candidate for your 458 trials when powder coated and loaded long in a 458.

JFE: I have ordered that RCBS 45-500 FNGC mould. Thanks for pointing it out.
Lots of similarities to the Lyman 457121PH that sharpsguy works wonders with in BPCR.
I'll give that Lyman a go in the Pedersoli .457"-grooved barrels with BP and smokeless.
The RCBS will be cast hard and painted and sized to .461" for the .459"-grooved barrels and smokeless, as you say.


Rip ...

RIP - I’ve actually used bullets from this mould on buffalo locally. Cast from Lyman no.2 they do expand when driven at around 1800 FPS. This was out of a Browning 71 that I had converted to 45/90.

If I was to do that again I think I’d only use the first shot as a cast pill and the rest in the mag would be hydrostatics.

The first shot you can pick or wait until the perfect shot presents itself. Once the shooting starts you don’t know what sort of shot is going to present itself and you need to be able to penetrate thick skin and break heavy bone to get to the vitals.

The alternative is to reduce the velocity to limit the expansion.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Mike,

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.
Recall that we used 18.5 grains of Blue Dot under three .451"/140-grain lead balls stacked in a .458 WIN.

That shoots into your hat size at 25 yards.
I did not chronograph for fear of destroying another instrument.
About like .410 shotgun.



I never tried any lube cookies there, thankfully.

I am now considering powder-coat-painting those same lead balls and shooting them as one-ball loads,
with something like 40 grains of AA-5744 or 50 grains of Blackhorn 209.

Red Death Balls for squirrels and such.
Anything the .444 Marlin can do, the .458 WIN or .45-100 SWT can do better.

Rip ...

If you are looking for a lightweight plinker, CBE have a mould that would be a better choice than a round ball. They make a light PB 260gr 458 SWC mould. I use it for plinking loads in my 45/70. You can turn your 458 into a 45LC.

I thought I saw .458 round balls there. Anyhoo... resize to bore diameter to get a flat ring to increase purchase for nominal faster twist 458 rifle barrels. I’m curious to see the difference between plain balls and paper patch balls. Maybe paper patch three balls together in a paper cartridge. maybe hacksaw off the back end of a gas checked bullet and stuff behind some balls?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
boom stick,
You post a link with zero listings of roundballs on it, only .50-cal sabots with .457"-458" Hawk bullets,
then you tell me to find a .458" round ball there.
That is like telling me to go sit in the corner of a round room.
Are you a co-conspirator of the .458 Winchester Magnum Denial?

The paper-patched lead roundball should be of bore diameter and patched up to groove diameter.
The .458" lead round ball is not what I need.
The ones I have that are .451" nominal (mostly a little bigger, none smaller) will do fine for paper patching.
Thank you for that idea,
will try it in the 1:20" and 1:18" .458 WinFlanged rifles before trying it in the 1:14" .458 WIN.
Maybe a paperpatched roundball could work in a fast twist.
If accurate enough for barking squirrels,
that would be cool.
If no good,
it has served to support THE MISSION. Thanks again.

Rip ...

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1165132904/
not available apparently but Hornady makes .457” round balls.

Maybe instead of balls it might be the go for .45" long 458 wadcutters.

Thank y'all for the suggestions for squib loads.
I am going to try some .451" lead balls wrapped in paper with a modest charge of AA-5744.
Better than a slingshot, hopefully.

Noting sharpsguy's accuracy on targets and game,
near and far,
with his various .45-Sharps rifles and 480-ish-grain WW/Pb-Lubed FN lead bullets at a mere 1200-1300 fps MV,
I shall embrace that MV for the .45-100 SWT and .458 WIN with cast bullets and smokeless.
Even a caveman can do that.
(Meanwhile I shall work with BP and sharpsguy bullets in secrecy so as not to embarrass myself.)

I also embrace 2150 fps with cast bullets and smokeless, up to 540-ish-grains in the .458 WIN.

Those might be called "hellbender" loads by some.
Then a 480-grain XTSX Copper Buffalo Buster load at 2300 fps from the .458 WIN LongCOL 3.6" would be called a "hellbuster" load.

Rip ...

How about SGs - AA buckshot? could you fit nine of those in a 458WM and propel them near shotgun speed?

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
How about SGs - AA buckshot? could you fit nine of those in a 458WM and propel them near shotgun speed?

Heh, heh.
I'll see how many of my Davy Crockett .32-cal and .40-cal round balls I can get into a .458 Win case with that 18.5 grains of Blue Dot.
Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell, sambarman338.
Hopefully they will still shoot into Mike's hat size at 25 yards, and make a better pattern for rabbits.
.177 and .22-cal lead airgun pellets?
Maybe the badminton birdie dart stabilization will not be totally squashed.
Turning a .458 WIN into a .410 shotgun.
Something the .458 Lott might do better.

Rip ...

THE DOUBLE GUN & Single Shot JOURNAL Spring 2014
"Reloading The Oddball Metrics And Others Part X The .475 No. 2 Nitro Express"
by J. C. Munnell

Mr. Munnell discussed the ".45-Caliber Ban" as contributory to the existence of the .475 No. 2 NE:

"... however, along came the inevitable government interference, and some time (as near as I can tell around 1899, although something that should be easily reduced to a precise date seems unreasonably obfuscated) the British Solvers OF All Problems In All The World decided that the only way to prevent insurrections within their empire (on which the sun never set, don't you know old chap?) was to outlaw -- at least in India and the Sudan -- any rifle or cartridge of .45 caliber. This was apparently predicated upon the fear that the indomitable inhabitants of those areas would busy themselves pulling bullets from such as the .450 NE and reloading their .577/.450 Martini-Henrys with these bullets and firing the same in the general direction of their British masters."

Amazingly difficult to pin down a year.
Most say it was 1905, not 1899.
I hardly see how the .450 NE could have become the most popular round for dispatching elephants if the first one to survive proof did so in November 1897 and was not delivered to the first crash test dummy Rigby patron until 1898 !

I think 1905 is closer to it.
Time enough for the .450 NE to get popular, get banned, and get replaced in 1907 by the .470 NE, released to the trade by Joseph Lang. Even John Rigby started building his rifles for India and Sudan in .470 NE, though I am sure he continued to build the .450 NE for the rest of the world.

For redeeming social value I also note the author's method of annealing his cases for the .475 No. 2 NE, which is prone to neck splits:

"... I annealed each case by dipping the case neck in 3-in-one oil, then holding the necks -- only-- in molten lead for 12 seconds each and quenching the cases in water. Of course, after annealing, the cases have to be thoroughly cleaned with soapy water, rinsed completely and dried in a toaster oven set at 150* for at least two hours, preferably when your wife is not at home ..."

Set your lead melting pot and use the thermometer for 750* F, eh?
2 hours at 150* in a toaster oven to dry wet brass seems a bit awkward, especially if the wife should catch you doing it.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
How about SGs - AA buckshot? could you fit nine of those in a 458WM and propel them near shotgun speed?

Heh, heh.
I'll see how many of my Davy Crockett .32-cal and .40-cal round balls I can get into a .458 Win case with that 18.5 grains of Blue Dot.
Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell, sambarman338.
Hopefully they will still shoot into Mike's hat size at 25 yards, and make a better pattern for rabbits.
.177 and .22-cal lead airgun pellets?
Maybe the badminton birdie dart stabilization will not be totally squashed.
Turning a .458 WIN into a .410 shotgun.
Something the .458 Lott might do better.

Rip ...

458 Lott Shotgun? I think that's been done already. Just look at the targets Shootacow posts from time to time. A 458 Shotgun Lott is the most logical explanation.

Rip, the notion of a "ban" on 450s in the Sudan is largely misinterpreted these days.
Sportsmen were still allowed something like 200 rounds per annum.
The advent of the 500/465, 470, 475 etc. seem to me more as a marketing effort for each maker to put out their own cartridge and the ban was just the catalyst to make these new cartridges appealing to buyers.
All of which, naturally, had no edge in performance over the 450NE.

New improved load for the 300gr TSX from my Ruger Tropical.

75 grains H4198 under the 300gr TSX (up 2 grains from my last report):

MV = 2734, 2728, 2736 instrumental = 2752 fps/5044 ft-lbs, corrected average to MV. About the same as a .375 Wby, but slows more quickly, of course.

Accuracy: sub-moa. Sighted at +1.31" @ 100 yds, -2.00" at 200 yds. Plenty good for intended purposes.

Ambient conditions: Sunny but frosty.

Remington brass 1x fired in former CZ

Recoil= approximately 36 ft-lbs (same as a light 300 Win. or heavy .338 Win.)

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

To be fair to Shootaway, he chooses to shoot all those targets offhand. Rapidly by the anecdotes of his barrels heating. Not too many folks post offhand .458 target pictures.
I'm not sure why he never shoots otherwise but it's a freedom chooses kind of thing. More power to him.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
New improved load for the 300gr TSX from my Ruger Tropical.

75 grains H4198 under the 300gr TSX (up 2 grains from my last report):

MV = 2734, 2728, 2736 instrumental = 2752 fps/5044 ft-lbs, corrected average to MV. About the same as a .375 Wby, but slows more quickly, of course.

Accuracy: sub-moa. Sighted at +1.31" @ 100 yds, -2.00" at 200 yds. Plenty good for intended purposes.

Ambient conditions: Sunny but frosty.

Remington brass 1x fired in former CZ

Recoil= approximately 36 ft-lbs (same as a light 300 Win. or heavy .338 Win.)

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

Thanks for the data point for the manual.

As for shootaway's patterns with his .458 Lott,
thank God he is a champion of the .458 Lott instead of the .458 WIN.
Says plenty.

Rip ...

RIP... some of us are waiting with bated breath to hear about the Paper Patch Balls! We also need pics of your balls!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
How about SGs - AA buckshot? could you fit nine of those in a 458WM and propel them near shotgun speed?

Heh, heh.
I'll see how many of my Davy Crockett .32-cal and .40-cal round balls I can get into a .458 Win case with that 18.5 grains of Blue Dot.

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell, sambarman338.
Hopefully they will still shoot into Mike's hat size at 25 yards, and make a better pattern for rabbits.
.177 and .22-cal lead airgun pellets?
Maybe the badminton birdie dart stabilization will not be totally squashed.
Turning a .458 WIN into a .410 shotgun.
Something the .458 Lott might do better.

Rip ...

As I recall our ICI SGs were .33 cal. Reading stories of Phs having to sort out leopards in thick cover, I'm inclined to think Mike's hat size would be too tight a pattern - unless he has an enormous head. Maybe the damage rifling would do to the pellets would be a good thing, giving them a rough edge and a wider-than cylinder spread.

Back in 1970, when I first got my Krieghoff Teck .458 WM double rifle, I used to take it to the skeet range and shoot a few rounds with it, using .410 shells. The empties were useless afterwards, but the gun handling experience came in handy a year later in Africa.

Do .410 shotshells fit in a 444 Marlin? I guess you're not the man to ask though, xausa, as I recall you are not a fan of tubular magazines.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
RIP... some of us are waiting with bated breath to hear about the Paper Patch Balls! We also need pics of your balls!

To humor boom stick:

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
Back in 1970, when I first got my Krieghoff Teck .458 WM double rifle, I used to take it to the skeet range and shoot a few rounds with it, using .410 shells. The empties were useless afterwards, but the gun handling experience came in handy a year later in Africa.

Bubba likes to save on .410 shot shell hulls
by just filling up the .458 WIN with a gas check over 18.5 grains of Blue Dot,
then 7-1/2 shot to overflowing, then an inverted gas check over shot.
Crimp with Lee Factory Crimp die.
If the shot won't knock them down, maybe a gas check will.
Now I really want to rechamber a Baikal SxS .45-70 to .45-2.6" SWT.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Do .410 shotshells fit in a 444 Marlin? I guess you're not the man to ask though, xausa, as I recall you are not a fan of tubular magazines.

If it won't, the .45-2.6"-SWT SxS might be useful at ruining .410 hulls.
BTW Paul, don't you think .410 shotgun buckshot is a little light for leopard?

Rip ...

Now that I have a mould to make bullets like sharpsguy uses with BP (.457", 478-gr, WW/Pb-50:50, groove-lubed, FN "PH"), Goldie is going over to "The Dark Side."

Bobbee Boom-Boom the .459"-grooved Ruger No. 1 .45-2.6"-SWT (and all the .458 WIN All-COLs)
can make better use of the hardcast, gas-checked, powder-coat-painted, .461"-sized bullets.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
RIP... some of us are waiting with bated breath to hear about the Paper Patch Balls! We also need pics of your balls!

To humor boom stick:

Waiting to hear results
Wonder how many ways you can skin that cat of ball wrapping

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
... Wonder how many ways you can skin that cat of ball wrapping ...

Another method is to cross two paper patches in an X
and plunk the ball in the middle of the X then twist all tails of the patches around the ball.
Or use one big, square patch with the ball in the center, et cetera ...
Mostly other ways waste more paper.
Seems something simple that can be made to shed at muzzle exit is needed.

I shall have exhausted the second firing of over 400 .458 WIN cases and the first firing of over a hundred .45-2.6" cases
after I fire the XTSX and hardcast shown above.

I will do up another batch of each and play with my balls then.
Lubing my balls after papering them is the next consideration.
I used to wrap my bigger balls in Teflon tape for a 20G RBL "Professional" SxS.
Kinky.

Rip ...

Rip
Let us not have the Mission sullied with the minuscule round ball. The fellows who are fixated on tiny balls can start a 458 Lott thread. You can’t long COL a ball. The mighty 458WM was and is for those who throw both long and wide at 2150 FPS with ease.
Life is too short to be concerned with tiny round balls.

RIP can LongCol with his balls out. Make a triple ball paper cartridge then load it up. It is not just a round ball but a Kentucky Bubba shotgun! If you load your balls in the case it makes for a better package. I would like to see how a breech loaded 2+1 round would work. Is it safe or sane to stuff two in the tube and one in the case? Can you stuff two balls down the throat and still load a single ball round?

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip
Let us not have the Mission sullied with the minuscule round ball. The fellows who are fixated on tiny balls can start a 458 Lott thread. You can’t long COL a ball. The mighty 458WM was and is for those who throw both long and wide at 2150 FPS with ease.
Life is too short to be concerned with tiny round balls.

Excellent advice, for THE MISSION.
boom stick:
Go take your medication and get a .458 Lott if you want to play pocket pool.
Snake loads are good:


I have a McGowen No.4 sporter, 1:14", stainless barrel incoming.



Will slug and see if it is 0.459" in the grooves like every other .458 WIN I have slugged.
Come too think of it, I need to slug the Shilen again and see if it is 0.459" with a soft lead ball instead of .4588" with a 30:1 bullet.



Either way it rounds to .459" to nearest .001".
No significant difference for loading's sake.

It will go on a Connecticut Winchester M70 Classic action from a .416 RemMag.
The .458 WIN beats any .416, and when allowed 3.6" COL and 62,500 PSI it beats any SAAMI .458 Lott.


Rip ...