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Michael, I measured the angle on the original JDJ you gave me and it is a 15 degree. The new 13's I sent you have a larger radiused meplat so they should be better than the 13's you tested earlier. Hope you have that catch box set up so we can see how deep they go. Got to beat those 6.5 156 gr military and the 9.3 320 gr Woodie. Hope so anyway. | |||
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Sam I posted a v2 on the other thread to eliminate any possible patent infringement with the S&H SHARCC fin crimp driving band design. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Googled S&H Sharcc fin and could not find any information on it. I guess I've never seen or heard of it before. Got a photo I'd like to see what it looks like? | |||
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Looking forward to the "Lucky 13 Bastard" bullet test. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Hey Boom, Just checked the NEI catalog of molded bullets and identified the bands that Sam utilized on a number of the bullets listed...so no violation of any patent that S&H my hold for their SHARCC fin crimp driving band design. Quite a bit of difference between the two designs anyway. I guess NEI could complain about Sam's use of their band design but then I guess they'd have to complain about the S&H 2-bore FN design as it's virtually identical to a few of their very large bore bullet designs. But then I do believe that most if not all of the NEI designs have existed for 20-years or more which should eliminate any patent issues for both. Guess what they say is true, what's new is old and what's old is new.  Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Michael...absolutely figure out the BC when you get your hands on them. Sam did a great job. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Capo You got it! When I get them from Sam I will sort them out! Well, I gave the 510 Cutting Edge bullets a workout yesterday and they did pretty good. These are new and I had a 68% meplat done, instead of the 65% on the SSK bullets. There is a difference between 65% and 68%! The new CEB bullets average around 57-58 inches of penetration, while the SSK-65% will do 62 inches on a regular basis. Since this is a money bullet, and prototype, I decided I needed to give it a decent go so I did 4 tests, X2 each. On 1 occasion one bullet hit something on the way from 50 to 57 inches, in the end it was 1.5 inches off course? On a couple of the bullets they lost stability right at the end of penetration, last couple of inches, this is not abnormal with ANY of them. For the most part they did very well. They were hammering the first 10 inches of medium with big gaping holes, the 68% meplat was doing a number, which is surprisingly a bit more than the 65% meplat does. It's only 3%, but it made a big difference! Also, I would not go beyond 68% meplat with this nose profile for feeding purposes in the Winchesters. I am sure I would have issues at 70% in this nose profile. This was a good and proper test, carefully done, and witness cards placed to track stability every 10 inches. I also had a 400 gr bullet done to check out in the 50 B&M Super Short. Will be testing it today.   http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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michael it is sad that you live so far away from me, there is a special load that i would love to see in your medium, keep up the good work, i am really excited to see if the hollow end bullets will perform out of normal thinking  best peter | |||
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The CEB's look like they are doing pretty good. Impressed with the velocities and how good they are consistant. Not sure I like their band design but it seems to work. How much are these bullets going to cost or do you know yet? | |||
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Michael, The CEB 512gr FN solids are interesting…2 grs heavier but about 110fps better velocity than the SST/Lehigh 510gr FN solids. I think I agree with Sam about the bands though my primary concern is the upper and lower two bands… those suckers are way too wide for optimal performance. Why not have Dan produce some samples with all bands cut like the center bands…should reduce bearing surface drag even more for slightly increased velocity over the current prototypes while still giving a good barrel/bullet seal. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Capward 2gns wouldn't make that much difference, it would have to be in the shape of the bullet / bearing surface difference. | |||
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Yep its totally the bearing surface difference...My sentence structure was just very poorly done; I didn't identify the difference between the banding of the two bullets...it was there brain wise but not in writing. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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No worries I think the driving bands of the bullets above are quite good. Yes, you could make them thinner but then to keep the weight of the bullet up to where you want, the metal has to go somewhere else. | |||
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In general IMHO there seems to be overkill on the ass gasket (bottom band) and band width compared to the North Fork solids. The other bands job should be rifling engagement bands and the bullet shaft and begining nose should be bore rider design. Rifling is about 10 thou so why not a .490ish shank and have skinny bands with alternating bands in .495 and .500 to minimize bearing surface? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Ya'll are killing me with these driving bands! I suppose I just don't have the patience to deal with them just now, maybe I got too much going on to worry with driving bands right now, I will let ya'll figure that out, in the meantime I have much work to do, and not enough hours in the day, not enough days in the week, if I had 5 more days in a week I could get caught up! Until then.............. I got a good bit of test work done today, and have full days both tomorrow and friday, probably Saturday too! I can post this, then it's off for me today! I gave the 400 gr CEB that we designed for the 50 B&M Super Short a workout today. Excellent results for that little cartridge. Of course it's nothing but a cut down 510 CEB (Cutting Edge Bullets), but it works well.  Not a bad looking box either! And the test.  Not too bad for the little gun. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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True but only true if 512grs was the absolute target weight; even with thinning the upper and lower bands would still leave the bullet around 500grs or so which is plenty. We need to remember three tests: 1) The 488gr JDJ 13º Nose Profile Shape 66% Meplat FN Solid with its narrow multiple bands fired from the 50 B&M at 2161fps to 2178fps muzzle velocity resulted in 63” of straight-line within-mass penetration (which matched the best the 510gr SST/Lehigh FN Solid produces from the 50 B&M). 2) The 510 SSK 66% Meplat FN Solid with two wide bands and one double-wide band fired from the 50 B&M at 2025fps muzzle velocity resulted in 62” of straight-line within-mass penetration (sometimes out the back of the box). And finally, 3) The 512 CEB 68% Meplat FN Solid with two wide bands and five narrow bands fired from the 50 B&M at 2133fps to 2140fps muzzle velocity resulted in 58” to 60” of straight-line within-mass penetration. So in this case weight isn’t everything…meplat percentage and nose profiles are far more important than simply bullet weight. Now any of these three bullets will kill everything currently living on planet earth…very cleanly I might add… And yes, all three banding styles are very good and work well from bolt or single shot rifles. But I believe that none of them are the optimal bullet shape nor the optimal band width and style for maximum performance including straight-line within-mass penetration. Hopefully Michael’s testing will lead to the “optimal FN solid bullet specifications”. So far from his tests it pretty much seems that a radiused edge 68% meplat is the optimal bolt gun meplat design. Hopefully has further testing with identify the optimal nose shape, band design, and bullet weight range. Cheers, Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Michael, It is a nice looking box and very good performance from the bullets as well! Keep the faith, you know how the peanut gallery is when they're not doing the heavy lifting. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Michael, those 400 grain solid bullets getting that level of penetration over 2k fps in the mighty mouse Super Short is a new standard in a short and light defensive hunting package! That is not just a piggie popper gun! On another note am I right in my thinking that the lighter the bullet you can go down in meplat since stability won't be so much an issue with a shorter bullet to give less resistance and more penetration with lighter bullets? The damage to size and weight ratio with the SS and those bullets is impressive. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Capo Yes, I am pleased with both the CEB's. While the 510 CEBs come up short a couple of inches in penetration as opposed to the 510 SSK, that's all meplat size, 68% and 65%. The CEBs are knocking great big gapping holes in the first 10 inches of medium, slowing down from there and penetrating. Not to bad. Particularly pleased with the 42-44 inches with the 400s in the Super Short, this puts the 50 Super Short in buffalo range. I received some more Sam bullets today too, but just have not had time to peek! Also got all the JDJs tested today too. Try and post tomorrow, but I have full 2-3 days test work ahead. We will be taking a close look at those JDJ-13s, today the 15 and 17.5 did well too, not quite the match for the 13s, but they are lighter too coming in at 455-465. ????? When it comes down to CEB prototypes of one of the JDJ styles, I think maybe a 475 gr is a good place to start with it! Then maybe another 400 for the super short, and design it to shoot in the lever guns too! ????? Good Night All. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Boomy You are 100% correct. I would carry the Super Short for a lot of defensive situations, first and foremost that pops to mind is bear. If I were in Alaska, I would carry the 50 Super Short daily and with those 400s, and some new North Forks coming, no bear that walks is safe from that. Perfect leopard gun, small, fast. Lion? It will do the job, no doubt, but I rather have the big 50! Buffalo shooter, yep, buffalo stopper--rather have the big 50! No doubt however, these new bullets take the 50 Super Short to new levels. Smaller meplat, lighter bullet, shorter??? Probably yes. Still 1:12 twist rates, but remember the smaller meplat of the Busters, still not quite stable even at 1:12, much better than 1:18, and extra velocity of the 50 B&M stabilized the busters even more. Dropping weights to 350 might get by with a smaller meplat and be stable??? I don't know. I would not do that however, you should see how hard this 68% meplat is on the medium, it's hammering it up front. 44 inches, not bad at all! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, You had some 10's and 12.5's in that batch of JDJ profiles. You should be able to see which angle works the best. The ones you got today are 13's with larger meplat and close to the same weight as the other 13's. I'm looking forward to seeing how the radius ogive bullets do as well. Sam | |||
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Sam I am going to post these in order of angle. There really was but one failure on all of them and it was the 20s of all things? Both took a nose dive at the same spot? I liked the 15s and the 17.5 best out of yesterdays test work. But I will revisit the new 13s you sent next week. You also sent a very handsome bullet, might be the ones you are talking about, they weigh 493 grs, nose profile just looks great, perform or not, we will see. But I really like the way the bullet looks, might be like the wine in the nicest bottle tasting better than the expensive wine?  First up the 452 JDJ-10. One took a turn at 54 inches--ok so what, 54 inches is more than enough to do the job, but we are still looking for the best. One drove to 60 inches, incredible for a bullet of this weight. At these velocities the "official JDJ--From JDJ" at 455 grs drives to 56 inches dead straight time after time. What is that angle?  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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OK I told a story, I am not going in order of angle, I want this out of the way, I hate to end a report on a ugly note. If nothing else these were consistent. Both took a nose dive right at 40 inches, both went down to the bottom of the box and skidded to 45 inches. Why? Damn if I know. I thought they looked good, and I thought they would be right with the rest, but something was off? I will let ya'll figure that out.  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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The 12.5's did ok.  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Not much difference between the 15s and the 17.5s. Personally I liked the looks of the 15s better than the 17.5 short nose. 65% meplat seems to be the ticket with these too. Both giving great stability and equal penetration. These bullets will accomplish any mission asked of them in the field, no doubt about it. After testing the New 13s again, I will be sending some samples to CEB to have prototypes done, I will ask for multi bands, but maybe more conventional, and maybe without the seal tite band at the top. Also this nose profile does very very good in the 50 B&M Alaskan and the lever guns, so I will try and get one to match up with the new North Fork 450 Bonded for the lever guns, make an excellent match I think!   http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Let me post this on the sharp edge 13s just as a reminder.  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Sam and all This is the bullet that I really like the looks of. It might not perform for crap, we will find out, but man does it look good! Just like the looks of the nose profile.   http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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The Phantom 13 menace seems to be the bullet to beat  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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The two bullets with 20degree and a 40" exit make me wonder if the short taper is causing them to behave like roundnoses? An explanation is needed if we are going to describe what is going on in general. Does 20 degree = roundnose? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Tanzan Personally the first thing I would look at is the "shorter Nose" of that particular bullet. Regardless however, it is not a "round nose" by any stretch, at 40 inches before turning downward it was way beyond what a round nose gets too, which a good round nose can make it to 28 inches most of the time, a bad one to less than 20 inches. So a round nose it's not! I don't think it's the 20 degree, I think the short nose gave it some instability. But, I might be wrong too? I am guessing on that. And not much time to dive into it myself, especially with all the other doing much better. I have too many fish to fry before this one! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, What is the meplat on the pretty bullet? I didn't measure it after I put the radius on it. | |||
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Exactly, the short nose (from the sharp angle ogive) gave it some instability. It became closer to 'roundnose-ish', It started to move in the DIRECTION of roundnose behavior. This reminds me of the very long 'round' nose .366 that drove deep like a flat nose. There appears to be something going on where the overall approximate shape of meplat and nose length interacts with each other. This may be augmented if the meplat is beveled or rounded too much, too. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Michael, Remember I also sent you 2 Barnes profiles of the same bullets as the angled. These would be good to see how they compare to the 20's. Yeah its getting confusing to me too, I can't hardly remember what I've sent you. Sam | |||
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I intend to test the 493 that Sam and I like so well along with this other group I am testing the next couple of days. This bullet has a 65% meplat, should do very very well I think. Tanzan You may be on to something with the nose length/shape interaction. Just hard to tell with only two in the box. No Sam, hold off. I want to look hard at the 13s next week too. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael that 493gr FN Solid that you and Sam came up with is definitely great looking…I believe it’ll be a very straight deep driver. It also might be the basis of a very nice Spitzer/Semi-Spitzer copper bullet.  Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim Well as much as I would love to take any sort of credit for this 493-BBW bullet, I cannot take one grain of credit for it! I am just the monkey behind the scenes. All Credit goes to our very own SRose and BBW (Bastard Bullet Works). Did I say I was testing this bullet with a bunch of other tests today???? I think I did, no, I am sure of it, I did, and I tested it! YIPPIE. And it did just as damn good as I had hoped, and thought that it would!    This is a superb bullet and gave excellent 100% Dead Straight Line Penetration! Both found in exactly the same depth, and both dead nose forward! One just can't ask for better than this! An excellent nose profile that it is really not exactly like anything I have seen, so I name it the new "BBW Nose Profile"! If Sam would like to change that, he is welcome to do so. I am sending this bullet next week to CEB for prototypes to be done, and then a more thorough test done with the prototypes. Now, Sam, Jim, RIP Mike, anyone have any suggestions as to the weight and material, copper or brass? I was thinking about a 480 gr Copper, no more than 66% meplat, no less than 65% meplat. Can go with 490, or even 500 in a copper, the copper is 5% heavier so size would be close to the current bullet I would think. 480 in the 50 B&M could be run at close to 2200 fps, the 500 at 2150 fps. Does not make much difference really, both would do well. I have to do some meaurements from nose to mouth to see if it might work in the Super Short as well. It's too long a nose for the levers. This is an excellent bullet, just excellent! Sam, this one is a big winner, looks good, shoots good, and terminals are excellent! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, Great and thanks! I sent you a couple in .458 today of the same style. I'm sure you'll like that. I think 450, 500 grain would be good in copper and then maybe a brass hollow point to match. I have a 3 band just like this one in .510 I'd like to test and maybe get some made for my double. Sam | |||
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sam the three band in this style is something that i would be very interested in seeing as well as a 577 and a 600, this new style really is pleasing to my eye as it is more traditionel and with much performance promise. peter | |||
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Peter, I have made some 577's like this also with 3 and 4 bands. 3 band has two at top and one at base, 4 band two and two. I find it hard to order a large amount of custom bullets when the Barnes banded is so good in 577. If enough people are interested in the 577 and 600 maybe we can get a run made and split it up. My next trip to see Michael I plan on testing the 500 and 577 again and hopefully at 2100 to 2150 fps in both. Sam | |||
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