quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Jim

Well as much as I would love to take any sort of credit for this 493-BBW bullet, I cannot take one grain of credit for it! I am just the monkey behind the scenes. All Credit goes to our very own SRose and BBW (Bastard Bullet Works).

Did I say I was testing this bullet with a bunch of other tests today???? I think I did, no, I am sure of it, I did, and I tested it! YIPPIE. And it did just as damn good as I had hoped, and thought that it would!
This is a superb bullet and gave excellent 100% Dead Straight Line Penetration! Both found in exactly the same depth, and both dead nose forward! One just can't ask for better than this!

An excellent nose profile that it is really not exactly like anything I have seen, so I name it the new "BBW Nose Profile"! If Sam would like to change that, he is welcome to do so.

I am sending this bullet next week to CEB for prototypes to be done, and then a more thorough test done with the prototypes. Now, Sam, Jim, RIP Mike, anyone have any suggestions as to the weight and material, copper or brass? I was thinking about a 480 gr Copper, no more than 66% meplat, no less than 65% meplat. Can go with 490, or even 500 in a copper, the copper is 5% heavier so size would be close to the current bullet I would think. 480 in the 50 B&M could be run at close to 2200 fps, the 500 at 2150 fps. Does not make much difference really, both would do well. I have to do some meaurements from nose to mouth to see if it might work in the Super Short as well. It's too long a nose for the levers.

This is an excellent bullet, just excellent! Sam, this one is a big winner, looks good, shoots good, and terminals are excellent!

M

I'm getting lost!!!

Isn't this leading to replicating the North Fork and S & H design?

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Peter,

I have made some 577's like this also with 3 and 4 bands. 3 band has two at top and one at base, 4 band two and two. I find it hard to order a large amount of custom bullets when the Barnes banded is so good in 577. If enough people are interested in the 577 and 600 maybe we can get a run made and split it up.
My next trip to see Michael I plan on testing the 500 and 577 again and hopefully at 2100 to 2150 fps in both.

Sam

sam

remember that the barnes is a bullet that i wouldent even allow to be around the gun cabinet in case the guns might be offended and shoot crocked on the next hunting trip

seriusly though as i have stated before we need the bearing surface way down for this to work in the black powder rifles, but with three bands and maybe in copper
what about the three band with the hollow end to bring it down to 560 grains, which is the original weight for the 577 bpe.
i think this can work, quite well actually, i will email you and we should chat about this.

cheers

peter

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Jim

Well as much as I would love to take any sort of credit for this 493-BBW bullet, I cannot take one grain of credit for it! I am just the monkey behind the scenes. All Credit goes to our very own SRose and BBW (Bastard Bullet Works).

Did I say I was testing this bullet with a bunch of other tests today???? I think I did, no, I am sure of it, I did, and I tested it! YIPPIE. And it did just as damn good as I had hoped, and thought that it would!
This is a superb bullet and gave excellent 100% Dead Straight Line Penetration! Both found in exactly the same depth, and both dead nose forward! One just can't ask for better than this!

An excellent nose profile that it is really not exactly like anything I have seen, so I name it the new "BBW Nose Profile"! If Sam would like to change that, he is welcome to do so.

I am sending this bullet next week to CEB for prototypes to be done, and then a more thorough test done with the prototypes. Now, Sam, Jim, RIP Mike, anyone have any suggestions as to the weight and material, copper or brass? I was thinking about a 480 gr Copper, no more than 66% meplat, no less than 65% meplat. Can go with 490, or even 500 in a copper, the copper is 5% heavier so size would be close to the current bullet I would think. 480 in the 50 B&M could be run at close to 2200 fps, the 500 at 2150 fps. Does not make much difference really, both would do well. I have to do some meaurements from nose to mouth to see if it might work in the Super Short as well. It's too long a nose for the levers.

This is an excellent bullet, just excellent! Sam, this one is a big winner, looks good, shoots good, and terminals are excellent!

M

I'm getting lost!!!

Isn't this leading to replicating the North Fork and S & H design?

IBT

No, it's not either actually. The photos might not show it, but it has more of a nose taper from about midways from mouth to nose and a 65% meplat. Nothing wrong with either of the others, just different is all. Also this one is very conducive to making into a HP. Feed and function is perfect with that little taper on the nose.

We now are working on the North Forks in .500, and so far extreme success. I will finish tests on North Fork FPS and CPS in .500 caliber tomorrow. I can tell you now that the CPS 450 gr and 375 gr .500s is incredible. Far better than I expected.

Michael,

The nose (ogive) of these bullets is actually a radius of between 3 and 4 calibers.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

The nose (ogive) of these bullets is actually a radius of between 3 and 4 calibers.

Sam

Excellent, I don't care what they are, I am going to make some more. Now the deciding part is "weight" "material", I think 480 and copper.

M

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
My next trip to see Michael I plan on testing the 500 and 577 again and hopefully at 2100 to 2150 fps in both.

Sam

Sounds interesting... I am sure the 750 grs 577 Barnes banded will do very well at 2100-2150 fps - they did well with around 60 inch penetration at the very low velocity 18-1900 fps but if taken to 2100-2150 I am sure they will penetrate like hell.....

The last few days I have been doing some test work with the NEW .500 caliber North Fork FPS and CPS bullets. Two weights, 450 gr for the 500 MDM and the 50 B&M, and 375 gr for the 50 B&M Super Shorts

These are the test rifles.



More photos of boxes, bullets and cartridges--Love those boxes you know!

Lets start with the 50 B&M Super Short, 375 gr FPS--Flat Point Solids.







Now for the 50 B&M Super Short and the 375 CPS--Cup Point Expanding Solids







This is extreme performance for such a small rifle/cartridge combo. These 375 gr North Forks were designed for the 50 B&M Super Short. Now while I would not recommend a 50 Super Short for buffalo, with these bullets it most certainly goes beyond "adequate" for the job. I am pretty sure I am going to try and work in a 50 Super Short on my next Australian buffalo shoot! I know what bullets I will be using too! North Forks!

Michael

Now for the 450 gr North Fork FPS and CPS in the 50 B&M.




I used "Witness Cards" for all these tests. Placed every 10 inches thru the test medium to be able to track exact bullet paths. For the Cup Point Expanding bullets I placed 1 extra Witness Card at 4 inches to record trauma.







The search for the "Perfect 50 B&M Buffalo Bullet" is over. Kinda sad in a way, leaves little to strive for once you have the perfect bullet! Needless to say, I am very well satisfied with these, and I do think that this enhances the 50 B&M well into a heavy hitter on buffalo. With this, I truly wonder why I even have a 500 MDM? I am not kidding either!

These will be on the next buffalo trip, next year.

Michael

And finally the 500 MDM and the 450 CPS and FPS North Forks.









The 500 MDM is already a buffalo hammer, but these new North Forks will do just dandy! In fact, I suspect they will turn old buff inside out!

Michael

These have been some fairly intensive tests over the last couple of days. These tests were to approve or disapprove and make changes to the final production run if needed. I have approved both of the Cup Point Expanding already, the 450 CPS and the 375 CPS, there is no where to go from there!

The FPS solids I requested a 68% meplat instead of the current 71% meplat on these. The reason is not performance, or deeper penetration, the 71% is just fine either way, but for feed and function purposes only. 71% meplat will just not feed reliably in my Winchesters, so I am taking the meplat down to 68% and will be testing those in the next couple of weeks for final approval. I have pretty high confidence that 68% will feed just fine, and perform as well! No compromise on 68%!

These are absolutely incredible bullets, and one hell of a boost for .500 caliber!

Michael

While these are .500 caliber, don't forget, these are available in other calibers too! These Cup Point Expanding bullets are first class buffalo medicine in any caliber, and will enhance your cartridge beyond what you have seen before! Oh, and throw SD out the window with these, it means absolutely nothing!




Michael

The witness cards show some wounding eh?
The cup points perform like ultra-premium softs at high velocity ...
They are like FN solids at low velocity ...

When are the North Fork .500-cal/450-grainers going on sale?
I want some FPs, CPs and SPs ... and everyone else in the world with a .500-caliber hunting "gun" will be needing some too.
They will be sought after for more than just the fine art on the boxes.

I totally agree with keeping the meplat down to 68%.
I would say 67% is fine.
That is the stamped diameter of flat.
Radiused meplat edge too.

Doc M and Sam have combined talents to further world knowledge in terminal ballistics.
Makes me want to buy the world a Coke.

RIP

I still use the Witness Cards, and especially when I need to track solids over the long haul. Placing them at exact spacing you can find when they start to veer off course easy enough. And double especially when testing something like these North Forks, and the CEB bullets that we are putting into production! Got to have it 100% right before moving forward with a project.

Yes, extreme trauma with the CPS bullets, I was very impressed with the 50 B&M, honestly makes me wonder about needing a 500 MDM, but what does "need" have to do with it?

I approved the Cup Points yesterday, so they are and can go into production anytime. My order is in on those for 250 450s and 375s. I have not approved the 71% meplats FPS, and will be next week before the new 68% meplats prototypes are run. Will test, then if everything is good to go, they get approved too. I will find out when the bullets are going to run and have some run for you if you like at the same time.

I like the boxes, but I would be just as happy with the bullets if they come in a zip loc! But don't tell North Fork, I will collect the boxes!

Meplat of anything from 65-68% would do dandy. I think I would rather have 67-68% on these too. I am very confident that 68% will feed and function, the 71% just needs a tiny bit, 68% should be ample to feed. Yes, diameter of stamped flat is what I am measuring. Nicely radius!

North Fork really went all out on these, an excellent job. This is why I am having them gear up for the new 475 B&M and 475 B&M Super Short in the same manner! 450s and 350s for the .474s. The 475 B&Ms will be RTG (Ready to Go) with the right bullets the second the rifles hit my hands! And to boot, a 450 gr Bonded Core .474 too! These cover everything from elephant to buffalo, and lion, bears and whatever! Same as the .500s.

So now that the FPS and CPS are nearly complete, we work on the 450 Bonded Core next, then fall in on the .474s with North Fork!

Anyone with .500s are going to be all over these bullets, as they need to be! Very exciting. These CPS bullets are going to absolutely hammer buffalo. These are what I will be using next year in either the 50 or the 500! Or both?

Michael

Michael,

Sam does some awesome work; this bullet, and nose profile, is a winner. Regarding the replica Sam/BBW nose profile bullet…make it in copper with 65%-66% meplat… and 480gr (+/- 5gr) should work very nicely. Should feed slicker’n snot in the bolt guns.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

Sam does some awesome work; this bullet, and nose profile, is a winner. Regarding the replica Sam/BBW nose profile bullet…make it in copper with 65%-66% meplat… and 480gr (+/- 5gr) should work very nicely. Should feed slicker’n snot in the bolt guns.

Jim

Agreed! I like this bullet a lot too. I am thinking of copper, 480 gr in .500 caliber, 66% meplat, just for a bit of extra margin, duplicate the bands that Sam has on it, not the CEB bands. No seal tite band either. I think I will have CEB run a prototype and see how it does. The deal with CEB and North Fork is that I get prototypes to test before production. I am also thinking about this same bullet in .474 caliber and .458 caliber for the other B&Ms.

M

I know this belongs down in classified, and sorry for putting it here, but doing so anyway. George may kick me out?

I got to make some room on the bullet shelves. I have bullets that I will NEVER use again in my life, I need to move something around.

I have several boxes of .510 caliber Woodleighs in 535 grs, FMJ, PP, RN SN, 600 gr Woodleighs FMJ, PP

.474 caliber Woodleighs, FMJ and a bunch of old Barnes blue coated RN solids.

.358 caliber Hawk bullets 275 and 300 gr.

60 Cents on the dollar if anyone is interested. I need to make some room. I will give a good deal on the old Barnes Blue bullets, better than 60 cents on the dollar.

Just PM me if anyone is interested and we will sort it out.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

Sam does some awesome work; this bullet, and nose profile, is a winner. Regarding the replica Sam/BBW nose profile bullet…make it in copper with 65%-66% meplat… and 480gr (+/- 5gr) should work very nicely. Should feed slicker’n snot in the bolt guns.

Jim

Agreed! I like this bullet a lot too. I am thinking of copper, 480 gr in .500 caliber, 66% meplat, just for a bit of extra margin, duplicate the bands that Sam has on it, not the CEB bands. No seal tite band either. I think I will have CEB run a prototype and see how it does. The deal with CEB and North Fork is that I get prototypes to test before production. I am also thinking about this same bullet in .474 caliber and .458 caliber for the other B&Ms.

M

Michael,

Agreed… Yes have CEB use the Sam/BBW bands on all the bullets including the 512gr prototype...seal tite bands aren't needed. I know Sam mentioned 450gr and 500gr but think the 480gr makes more sense especially if it drives as straight and deep as we perceive it will. Maybe have a prototype down in the 430gr range for the shorter cases…then once the FN solids are settled on

Mepalt percentage...I know you’ve not done an identical nose profile/bullet weight, in either the JDJ or the Sam/BBW nose profiles, in 0.5% increments between 65% and 68% for testing. I perceive that if the testing was done that we would find a range of perhaps 1% that is based on the 0.5% reading that’ll give the optimum combination of deep straight-line within-mass penetration and within-mass damage. I’m thinking it would likely be something like a 66.5% meplat with +/-0.5% manufacturing tolerance. I also perceive that this optimum percentage will work equally well with JDJ and the Sam/BBW nose profiles as well as the NFs and CEBs nose profiles.

Yes I know this is getting very anal…and yes I am definitely part of the peanut gallery doing zero of the heavy lifting in this process…but if time permits it might be something to consider.

Jim

.5% Jim my file is accurate but that is calling it close. I think Michael has pretty well shown that 65 to 68% is just about ideal and I don't know that trying to get down to .5% would do anything. Too many variables.

Yeah boys, I think we would not be able to tell anything or difference in anything at .5% changes. There are too many other variables that would over ride .5%. Even 1% for that matter. 5% changes is probably about as low as we can really go and see changes.


You are not going to believe what I have been doing all day! Instead of going to church and asking for forgiveness of my evil ways, I decided to start moving things from Gun Lab One to Gun Lab Two, which is a room off the range. So I decided to move every bullet I had that was under 338 caliber out to Lab Two, along with all brass that does not pertain to B&M brass! We are talking a ton of stuff. I had no idea it would turn into such a mission! Lab One is a huge mess, and I just got tired of it and quit! Will have to sort it out this week is all! Normally I am pretty useless on Sundays, I suppose it takes so long for me to get forgiveness of my evils that it just wears me out!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
.5% Jim my file is accurate but that is calling it close. I think Michael has pretty well shown that 65 to 68% is just about ideal and I don't know that trying to get down to .5% would do anything. Too many variables.

Like I said, I was just being anal.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
You are not going to believe what I have been doing all day! Instead of going to church and asking for forgiveness of my evil ways, I decided to start moving things from Gun Lab One to Gun Lab Two, which is a room off the range. So I decided to move every bullet I had that was under 338 caliber out to Lab Two, along with all brass that does not pertain to B&M brass! We are talking a ton of stuff. I had no idea it would turn into such a mission! Lab One is a huge mess, and I just got tired of it and quit! Will have to sort it out this week is all! Normally I am pretty useless on Sundays, I suppose it takes so long for me to get forgiveness of my evils that it just wears me out!

Michael

Thought you were going to take it easy today!

Jim

One of my ex wives told me once "I had demons in me", she may have been correct?



I can't say what got into me this morning. Things are rocking along very nicely, and then I went insane and started packing bullets up and moving them, then brass, boxes and boxes of things, had to use a hand truck and a wagon to tote things, several wagon loads, industrial wagon, not a radio flyer!

Demons I tell you, demons!


Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Jim

One of my ex wives told me once "I had demons in me", she may have been correct?



I can't say what got into me this morning. Things are rocking along very nicely, and then I went insane and started packing bullets up and moving them, then brass, boxes and boxes of things, had to use a hand truck and a wagon to tote things, several wagon loads, industrial wagon, not a radio flyer!

Demons I tell you, demons!


Michael

When you have a couple of hours how about coming out to Idaho and cleaning my garage out for me?

465H&H

465HH

Next time I am in Idaho I will drop by! But be ready to sweat, cause we ain't gonna play, have mission to accomplish and demons inside me that have to be exercised! Brooms, buckets, mops, have them ready!


M

Lets see, up at 4 am, someone switched the lights here, no more humidity, and highs for the day around 88 degrees! 68 degrees this morning on the range, while I mopped, swept, bagged chewed up print that has been drying for a few days, loaded it up, toted it off, range maintenance on the impact boxes, reorganize Gun Lab #1 and found I have 3 new empty shelves that need to be filled with bullets! Lots of cleaning up today, making room for new shipments of North Forks, Cutting Edge, all on the way soon!

Oh, and I put a new front sight on the new 458 B&M english that has not been shot yet, scope on the 458 Super Short to check loads tomorrow, loaded some North Fork 450 458s to sight in irons for the 458 B&M! Also loaded several 458 Super Shorts to test.

Got to load some of Sams #13s to finalize that test work, and have 3 Capo bullets that arrived today!

Now what was I supposed to do with the Capo bullets? Load at two velocities, check BC I remember that, I must put these in the box for tests right?

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Got to load some of Sams #13s to finalize that test work, and have 3 Capo bullets that arrived today!

Now what was I supposed to do with the Capo bullets? Load at two velocities, check BC I remember that, I must put these in the box for tests right?

M

Yahoo!!! Yes…check BC then put two in the box…1 @ max velocity from 500 MDM and 1 @ on the low side of 1900fps from the 50 B&M. Thank you very much!!!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
465HH

Next time I am in Idaho I will drop by! But be ready to sweat, cause we ain't gonna play, have mission to accomplish and demons inside me that have to be exercised! Brooms, buckets, mops, have them ready!


M

I have some Amarula that will exorcise your demons.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
[B]One[/B] of my ex wives told me once "I had demons in me", she may have been correct?


Michael

How many have your weared out??

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
[B]One[/B] of my ex wives told me once "I had demons in me", she may have been correct?


Michael

How many have your weared out??

I am on #3 right now! Not looking for #4, I suppose I am done with that sort of thing! Last one was VERY expensive! But worth it to be rid of her!


M

I can imagine M

Cant live with or without them...

When children are old enough,
I recommend hunting with the lady.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
When children are old enough,
I recommend hunting with the lady.

Tanzan

My current #3 does not let me out of her sight! Now not sure why that is. But she goes on every single little adventure in which I embark upon. She has been there done that and never complained. She has been in some very rough places, terrible weather, difficult times, and she is never deterred, and makes the best of it, and in MANY MANY cases over the last 10 yrs she has done much better than I have done, especially in Alaska! I remember once in Alaska it started raining, as always the very first day. Not my first trip to Alaska, and by the end of that day at near dark we are standing in the rain, I am starting to get cold, I look at her and ask "What in the hell are we doing here again?" I tell her, I am ready to go home now! She comes up with some soothing words, calms me down, and I know she is tougher than me! I hate wet and cold! But she hangs in there. Another time in Alaska we are in the bush for 8 days before we see a warm bed and a shower! Never complained, her, not me, I was bitching like a little girl! From the heat of Zimbabwe in November to the freezing Arctic, she makes every trip I do and in some cases had it not been for her, my sissy ass would have been back on the plane on my way back home to SC!
So this one I keep for the duration! Not to mention, she is damn good company, and when asked about should I shoot something or not, her standard answer is ALWAYS "Shoot'em All"! No kidding either!

We were in Australia on the buffalo shoot. Last day, this great old bull presented himself, I had already shot 3 fine trophy bulls, so I was a little undecided, should I shoot another? I turned to her for advice, she looked at me, and said these words----"Shoot him", that's it, all the encouragement I needed, I immediately went to work without any more hesitation at all! How can you get any better than that????

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
...I turned to her for advice, she looked at me, and said these words----"Shoot him", that's it, all the encouragement I needed, I immediately went to work without any more hesitation at all! How can you get any better than that????
Michael

Well Michael - the saying goes that the third time is the time of luck.. At least thats what we say in Denmark.. Appears to be true in the US as well..

Buffalo

Oh no doubt about it! #3 is perfect!

Well, I knew damn well I should have never ever went up to African and posted anything on a RN FMJ.

Getting ready to take a beating up there right now!

M

Ya, but that's nothin!
Wait till I post my ideas about using a .45-70 with 300 gr. ballistic tip Noslers as the ultimate Buffalo bullet!

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Ya, but that's nothin!
Wait till I post my ideas about using a .45-70 with 300 gr. ballistic tip Noslers as the ultimate Buffalo bullet!

I took my beating and left town! They would rather put me on ignore it seems. Not only that, but some of the Greatest PH's of all time even start bring up how many 1000s of elephants have been killed and blah blah blah blah, same old same old. Took my leave of them, packed up my toys and come home! I should have known better, I did know better, did anyway, like a dumbass, I deserve it for being stupid enough to think anyone up there had enough f$*%(^g sense to listen to anything or even understand what I said. Hell I agreed it was what they thought, made no difference, could not see that and I stated it clear. Just the mention of the Holy Grail RN FMJ in a bad way, and it's on! I even got accused of being the "FN Crowd", proudly I admitted so! Jesus H Christ!

Edited to remove ugly things I said before going to the range!

Why do some posts show they were edited, but mine do not? Had to put that in myself???

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I took my beating and left town! They would rather put me on ignore it seems. Not only that, but some of the Greatest PH's of all time even start bring up how many 1000s of elephants have been killed and blah blah blah blah, same old same old. Took my leave of them, packed up my toys and come home! I should have known better, I did know better, did anyway, like a dumbass, I deserve it for being stupid enough to think anyone up there had enough f$*%(^g sense to listen to anything or even understand what I said. Hell I agreed it was what they thought, made no difference, could not see that and I stated it clear. Just the mention of the Holy Grail RN FMJ in a bad way, and it's on! I even got accused of being the "FN Crowd", proudly I admitted so! Jesus H Christ!

Edited to remove ugly things I said before going to the range!

Michael

michael

as i said on that tread, i think that endorsing shootaways rather stupid post(which made me chuckle) was a bad way to try to convince people that there might be another way of putting holes in animals, than the usual one.

remember how we meet here on AR, it were in the double rifle forum, you got your shit down to an artform and 90 pages to show for it, but in that case you did not know enough about old doubles and the trubles that can occur from playing with mono's.

please remember this is not religion but something even more importent i thought about replicating your tests but with cinder blocks and a drenched big bale, but either which way people will tell me that they are not hunting armoured big bales, keep doing what you do so well and let people get convinced by the evidence.

and lets gets sams latest design up and running as it is a lot more pleasing to my traditionel eye's than the north forks or gs or something.

have you had any thoughts regarding the hollow end bullets ?

best

peter

Peter

I suppose something was not coming clear on the thread upstairs. I was not endorsing Shootaways comments, but RIPs comments concerning that "no one would even mention the RN FMJ", it was taboo to even bring that up. You just cannot say anything negative about a round nose bullet up there, period, end of story. RIP opened the door, I simply wanted to back him up a little, then it went to hell.

I agreed that I thought the velocity was most likely the issue in this particular case, as I quoted it twice more in the other posts, almost as if it did not exist. The only thing they picked up on, or cared about was that I said something negative about the Holy Grail, the RN FMJ bullet. Nothing else I said mattered from that point on, and that is the way it has been up there since I have been on AR. That is a different group of people. Most are not shooters, a few cross over, but those few handload and have interest in more than bowing down to worship the mighty "I shot an Elephant" crowd. As you see, I got pegged as a member of the "FN Crowd" which I freely admit too, it was also thrown up that about a million or more elephants have been killed with RN bullets, and so on and so forth and Blah Blah Blah.

The only mention of shootaway was that in one of his posts at the end he mentions in just a few words about the bullet veering off course. That's all I referred to in his case. Others just touched around the issue. RIP busted it open.

Oh yes, I remember very fondly of how we met and I am a better man for it! LOL. For those who forgot: I poked my nose in on doubles on a discussion about bullets down there with Mike! Well OUR BOY Peter just busted out and asked how much experience I had with double rifles? Well, that day I had never even shot a double rifle in my entire life, much less knew a damn thing about one! In my defense however I figured the discussion was about bullets, and the point of the discussion was by Mike, testing and shooting his double with these bullets. So Peter pisses me off HEH, and I leave with my tail tucked between my legs! Peter ran me off the double rifle forum!

Now here is the really good part of this little story! The very next day here comes Sam with a damn TRUCK LOAD of double rifles to work with and test! I fell out laughing about this, here Peter is kicking me in the teeth about no experience, and the very next day I become experienced with double rifles, and not just one, a truck load of them!

No, I will never forget, Peter, that is just too good of a story! I am still laughing!

Now here is the other rub on this, old Peter comes up to have a look at this thread, and decides that there is a better mouse trap in the works, and we have been fast friends ever since! Peter, it's a pleasure to have you around, and by the way, I still know crap about a double rifle, but at least I have been shooting Sams guns, but I don't shoot them for shit either! But they are fun!

Thank You Peter!

Now, let me say a little something about the cinder block--T'Rex test. At first, I really was just trying to dick around with testing the construction of these bullets, and just how far you could push them before the lesser bullets started to come apart. Wood, like 2X4s and even 4X4s have little effect on any of them. Even that fiberboard was not getting there, and I thought that was some really tough stuff, have to drill it, can't even drive a nail in it.

So I have a bunch of cinder block material where we built the indoor range a few years ago, I tried a piece that measures just over an inch I think at 5 inches inside the wet print, then 15 inches of wet print and a second block, remainder wet print.

Business started picking up then! This was some ugly material to get through, and it pushed the limits of all the bullets, not just the FMJs, but the mono solids as well! It's an ugly test. But what I have been learning is that some bullets can get through both blocks, dead straight before going astray at some point afterwards. Some bullets CANNOT get through this test! So, I figure it's set about right to test construction of our bullets and how they can hold up under the most ugly and difficult conditions! A bullet that can get through this, can get through most any situation found in the field!

So is it a viable test? No, we don't shoot cinder blocks in the wild, thank goodness elephant heads, and buffalo bodies are not made of cinder blocks and wet print! If they were, we would all have to be looking for some bigger guns! That is exactly the point, is it not? We test our bullets to the "Extreme" to see where and how they can fail, long before taking them to the field, this is what we should do, is it not?

Recently I needed to approve production of a copper solid, everything was there, it was accurate, it drove straight and true in the wet print mix I use, but I would NOT approve it until I had tested the MATERIAL strength in the T"Rex Test! It passed, so I now have 600 of them on hand!

Now those big bullets Sam has been making you like will have to be shot in his doubles, I don't have them.

The hollow base bullets, yes, I have some more Sam made, but have not had time to get to them! With the North Fork tests, CEB tests and others which had to be done to approve before production I am behind on other things, and I will confess, I am about burned out on terminals right now.

I have 25 prototypes of the new 9.3 CEB coming in two days, they have to be tested too before approving for final production! This means several wet print tests, T'Rex Test, accuracy tests and so forth. But 9.3 is easy to do. Never put a 9.3 anything through the T'Rex?

Peter, Yes, people will tell you that you don't hunt big armoured bales, but if your bullet can pass that test, it can pass all tests you might run into in the bush, Right?

M

Michael,

Just say when and I'LL bring the doubles down for a T-REX test. Got to load up some ammo as you shot up all I had. May have some better bullets made for the doubles the next time also. I will be sure and bring your 500 when I come.

Sam