Michael,

You said you needed a few days off from terminals and I guess you meant it. I knew it wouldn't take you long to get back to shooting. I've run out of ideas to keep you busy!

Sam

Doc M,
Yep, the work of CCMDoc is indeed the stuff of urban legend, good idea to "let's not go there!"

As you were, bewildering over this:

The big 5 Factors

1. Nose Profile
2. % of Meplat
3. Twist Rate
4. Velocity
5. Construction

Now number Six

6. Physical Size (for lack of a better term)
7. And finally Sectional Density!

bewildered

I am just trying to sort it out, I can think of nothing else?

Michael

Is not "factor number 6" simply dart-stability? That is caused by forward shift of center-of-gravity, due to the hollow base and solid nose, like a shuttlecock?

Dart-stability comes from the CG effect.
Shoulder-stability comes from nose shape, the 67% to 69% FN meplat.
Gyro-stability: More than adequate twist does not hurt penetration!!!

Maybe the improved dart-stability allows less waste of momentum and energy from tail slap,
hence more is channeled into forward motion?

Something phenomenal is happening with the light, dart-stabilized bullets.

Thanks for sharing the brilliant research.

Can someone calculate the impact energy of all these. Lighter but faster, slower but heavier but how close are the impact energy figures.

13 has always been a good number for me, and that continues to this day, not that I am superstitious or anything. But the Big Boy .500 caliber #13s are a tremendous success!

This Nose Profile has to go right up with the #1 Best Nose Profiles For Solids Ever! I reckon JDJ knows what the hell he is doing, as I suspected all along. I only have one bullet in this profile, the 455 JDJ in .500. Regardless of whether tested in the 50 B&M Super Short at 1850 fps, the 50 B&M AK at 1900 fps, the 50 B&M At 2200 fps, or the 500 MDM at 2450 fps this nose profile drives dead damn straight time after time after time. Velocity changes the depth of penetration, that's it. I tested 2 some time ago in .458 caliber in the 458 B&M, at 2140 fps 64 inches and out the box, and it weighed only 475 grs! It penetrated as well as a 500 Barnes Banded out of the lott at 2250. All nose profile!

I gave some samples of these to Sam, and of course he came up with all the different angles, most very good, except the #20s. But these #13s sure are consistent. Please recall a few weeks ago we tested #13s with a sharp edge 65% or 66% meplat, dead straight to 63 Inches. Two had rounded edge meplats that went out of the 64 inch box and lost, but they were a bit off course with the rounded edge meplat down to 62%. But penetration increased substantially, just not quite as stable at 62%.

Well these new samples Sam made are a perfect radius 67% meplat, weighing in heavy at 506 grs, let me introduce the 506 BBW/#13--In the left corner!






I did not notice until I actually took the photos, but Sam might have made two different rounded meplats for me to test, if so, then I tested them, and they are the same, made no difference. Both look good, kinda like that one on the left I think! Both did the same, DEAD STRAIGHT And out the back of the box, hit air, hit the second box to 66 Inches total, 100% straight line, nose forward!


A couple of days ago I did a post explaining how no solid can induce or inflict as much trauma as a expanding or Non Conventional expanding bullet, remember, page 89 now! Well, these #13s have another bonus factor, Tremendous Trauma transfer, the most I have EVER tested or seen in ANY solid ANYWHERE.

For solids I put the witness cards in at every 10 inches throughout the medium. They are placed 1 inch away from the right side of the box and bottom edge at the bottom of the box so that thru the box they are even. Now from time to time in repacking the medium one gets a 1/4 one way or the other, this is pretty easy to see. The witness cards are nothing but card stock from Wally World, laminated in 3 mil sleeves. What has been an added bonus on the witness cards is a permanent cavity that is left from the bullet inflicting trauma to the target. This can be measured, studied, and cataloged for future reference. Easy to store, and easy to study.

For expanding bullets I place the Witness cards every 4 inches within the medium, trauma normally starts to show very seriously at 4 inches, tapering down at 8, and not too much beyond 10 inches. This is pretty much the same with solids, after 10-12 inches there is not much trauma to be noticeable, and at 20 inches it's gone.

The trauma I am going to show you was at 10 inches inside the test medium, I have never witnessed this much trauma inflicted with any solid flat nose meplat bullet and then especially as deep as 10 inches. There was more trauma at 20 inches with this bullet than I normally would see at 10 inches with other solids! I have never seen trauma inflicted out to 20 inches!




What are my plans for this? I tell you what they are, Tuesday samples of these go to CEB, I want a 500 gr .500 caliber solid EXACTLY like these, with a 67% meplat. I want a 400 gr BBW/#13 also in .500 caliber. I am keeping these exact same bands too.

Then when the .500s are sorted out, I want .458s, a 450 gr version and a 325 gr version.

Then when the .458s are sorted out, I want a 360 gr .416 caliber version

Then when the .474 B&Ms come in I want a 450 gr version and a 350 gr version of them!

ALL BBW/#13s as they are now known! Hell I might even have a 9.3 version done too!

Great Job Sam, Just great!

Michael

quote:

The big 5 Factors

1. Nose Profile
2. % of Meplat
3. Twist Rate
4. Velocity
5. Construction

Now number Six

6. Dart-Stability! (RIP--I knew I could count on my trusty Assistant Doc RIP)
7. And finally Sectional Density!

RIP

I think that is just fabulous "dart-stability", makes good enough sense to me, and better than anything I can come up with, so unless someone can do better that works for me!

I must read up a bit on that, but it sounds right, makes good sense!

I will tell you this, it certainly ranks as a Discovery, at least to me. I would have never bet on this.

Michael

quote:

Capo

Don't worry about bands, they don't get touched when they are in the middle of terminal penetration.

You need to be like me, take a pill for those sort of things!

Michael

Michael

I was referring to the barrel engraving on the bullet…you know that big metal displacement smear from the upper band compared to the nice clean engraved lower bands…just trying to lessen the within barrel friction.

Pills…hum I do have some left over from my surgery, perhaps I’ll need to pop one occasionally to get me through this FN Hollow Base process.

RIP…you just may be correct regarding the “dart stability” comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

You said you needed a few days off from terminals and I guess you meant it. I knew it wouldn't take you long to get back to shooting. I've run out of ideas to keep you busy!

Sam

Oh man, what was it, last week? The North Fork tests were pretty intensive, along with other things, and just wore me down some. 9.3s came in Thursday I think, and I could not wait to get on them, but David was here most of the day yesterday, so I turned the range over to him and loaded test loads and monkeyed around with other things, so this morning I started getting ready at 5:30 AM--pulling air thru the range, getting temps to 73 degrees, getting the medium ready, making some new medium in box #2, and just general prepping for test work. 8 am I started shooting, and finished by 1:30. I have not yet input data into the data sheets yet, still have to do that.

Don't worry, I have plenty for a little while. Have some 416 tests we are running, maybe starting Monday. Some things I wanted to do, and have loads already loaded, and our boy Eezrider, from right here on terminals wants some expanding 416s done too, will be done with the 416 Rem, so I have to set one of them up for that. So by the time all that is done, I will find something, don't worry! Still have some tests I want run with the 458 Super Short and it's velocities too! So there is more than enough to keep digging! Will soon have to make a run to the Sun News however!

Michael

Michael,

I can't take credit for the JDJ angle profile but I did think up the 13 degree to give bad luck to what ever you shoot with it! HA HA The little groove in the nose you see doesn't have any meaning. That was how I kept the radius the same by just touching with my radius cutting tool. I should have put that groove just to make everyone think it had something to do with performance. I'm glad these bullets turned out so well! You have been holding us in suspense on when you were going to show results. Your little secret just couldn't hold could it! I still haven't come up with a shape or size to beat that 156 gr 6.5 or 320 gr 9.3 and I know Corbin is happy! I'LL keep trying though.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

Michael

I was referring to the barrel engraving on the bullet…you know that big metal displacement smear from the upper band compared to the nice clean engraved lower bands…just trying to lessen the within barrel friction.
[/QUOTE]


Jim

Yep, I am not all that wild about the bands, the big band you are talking about is the CEB signature band, the "Seal Tite" band. It's actually .001 over size. Supposed to help with accuracy, pressures, this that, the other, and who knows what else. The .500s are very accurate, but I can't see them being any better than anything else. Maybe on those VLD long range things, but for what we do, nah, I am having the #13s done with normal bands, just like Sam has on now.

I will be shooting next week all the new BBW Nose profiles Sam sent and I received yesterday. Several different weights there. But right now, Michael is hot on the BBW #13!!!!!!!

Peter

I think Sam sent samples to me of your 12 bore bullets, even the HBs. I will be checking with CEB on those for you. Will for sure want the HBs now, for "Dart-Stability", lighter weight, less recoil, no reduction in performance! WOW. Hmmmm?

M

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,
I still haven't come up with a shape or size to beat that 156 gr 6.5 or 320 gr 9.3 and I know Corbin is happy! I'LL keep trying though.

Sam

Sam

Put those #13s in the 500 MDM at 2350 fps and watch them out run the 6.5s and 9.3s!!!

66 inches at 2150 fps!!!!! Add 200 fps to that? A 525-550 #13 in the 500 MDM will do at 2200-2250 fps too I bet!

Corbin Who???????????? S*%T, he is in town this week, called yesterday, got to call him back!


M

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

I can't take credit for the JDJ angle profile but I did think up the 13 degree to give bad luck to what ever you shoot with it! HA HA

Sam

It will be bad luck for anything that gets in the way of this bullet--I guarantee that 100%!

OK You've given me an Idea! A 570 grain .510 and a 750 grain .583 BBW #13 for my doubles!!!!

Sam,
Is that a 13 degree semi-angle with a 26-degree cone angle for the nose?

That JDJ FN nose shape is the final refinement of the truncated cone FN nose shape.
It will move the CG forward compared to the simple truncated cone shape of GSC FN and North Fork FP solids.

Maybe those two bullet makers should consider some new bastard file tooling?

Doc M,
Any plans for a hollow-based #13FN?
It would take only a small hollow in the base to make a #13FN dart stable, eh?
A big, bad, boat tail base (+/- rebated boat tail) would also do for dart stability on a #13FN ...
Just something else to torment the test medium with.

RIP that is 13 per side or 26 included angle. The JDJ that Michael sent me was 15 per side and 30 included.

Sam

Yep, that #13FN sure is pretty.

Michael458

Could you tell us how the 50 B&M Alaskan did against the buffalo? Please include what bullet and the trauma it inflicted.

Thanks
Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Coloradoyaler:
Michael458

Could you tell us how the 50 B&M Alaskan did against the buffalo? Please include what bullet and the trauma it inflicted.

Thanks
Mark

Mark

I wish I could tell you but the simple truth is I have let the 50 B&M Alaskan and the Lever guns take a back seat to everything else I have been doing. I have not taken the Lever guns to the bush yet. Layne Simpson is currently doing an article on them for Rifle Shooter, and that has spurred me on a bit to get going with the 50 BMAK. In Jan of 2009 I was taking one to Russia for bear, but 2 days before leaving that fell thru unexpectedly.

I am working on it however. First, I think in the M71s that there is a possibility that the new North Fork 450s or 375s will work, but not in the Marlins for sure because of nose to mouth length. Specifically for the Marlin and the M71 we are going to make a 450 gr Bonded Core North Fork. I currently have a 455 JDJ Solid that will work in conjunction with the North Fork, and these bullets put us in buffalo territory. I also have a 450 gr Brass HP non conventional on the way that will serve in this role also. All the 450s should reach 2000 fps in 18 inches without much issue, I need a redesigned JDJ solid with narrow bands to reduce pressures some.

I will be looking at some of the new #13s that are posted here for the lever guns too.

I don't know when I might be able to get one to the field? I would have plenty of confidence in one however. I have used that 455 JDJ on buffalo in the 50 B&M and it hits them hard.

I think you need to build a M71, we will get the bullets ready for you, and you go shoot old buff with it and report back? Probably get it in the field faster than I am going to.

Sorry!

Michael

RIP

Have not thought of an HB #13 yet. Probably get some next week cause I can see the wheels turning now at Sam's place! HEH.

Again, I repeat, I have never seen trauma inflicted with a solid like this. At 10 inches that is phenomenal trauma transfer, then when I peeled back to 20 inches there was still trauma inflicted!!!!!!!!! This is one hell of a solid! It seems to be just the right formula!!!!!!

Sam

Yes, you know how sneaky I am, I do have two left! I am saving one however to send along with a fired one as a sample for CEB. Might just put one down with the 500 MDM first of the week!

M

Michael,

I think I know where a file is if you need a few more to test in the MDM. By the way I got 24 more feet of brass rod last week. As you would say "HEH HEH".

Sam

Oh crap, 24 feet, 10 bullets to the foot, that's 240 test bullets, I calculate about 10000 lbs of wet print? Hmmmm, better get a bigger truck!

M

Just be glad I'm using a bastard file and not a CNC lathe!!!!

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Peter

I think Sam sent samples to me of your 12 bore bullets, even the HBs. I will be checking with CEB on those for you. Will for sure want the HBs now, for "Dart-Stability", lighter weight, less recoil, no reduction in performance! WOW. Hmmmm?

M

michael

yes he send me a picture for verification, they sure look like bad news, for anything that gets in the way. actually that will be bad news in the shape of a 560 grains going at 2000 fps bad news the size of 0,715 bullet, that is actually 500 NE performance out of a 7 pound rifled shotty, now i just need a herd of elephants to test them.

I really am pussled by this HB thing, could it be vortex surface that overrides the SD, apparently those FN's do create and make good of a vortex effect.
what if that that vortex effect is actually active in the bullets entire lenght aka surface,

now if this would be true, then a 250 grains should be equally as unaffected if we just take away the weight from the inside.......

hmmm it is early morning, and my head allredy hurts from this.

i am sure that there will be a diminishing point of removing weight from the inside, but this is totally new ground to me and i have not been abel to find any other tests like this in any of my refference books.

best

peter

hey sam, can we patent this quickly

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
OK You've given me an Idea! A 570 grain .510 and a 750 grain .583 BBW #13 for my doubles!!!!

great idea, now can you HB them as well ?

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

Just be glad I'm using a bastard file and not a CNC lathe!!!!

Sam

carefull now, as i were on the phone with a gentleman about just that yesterday. he has one with a great big feeder on it, so i could just press go and keep a sharp lookout on tool wear.

this has some potential for a lot of fun work.

best

peter

Peter

I too am somewhat with the Hollow Base. By all rights, it should not be penetrating as deep as the same bullet without the Hollow Base??? But it is. At first, with only 1 to test, I thought maybe anomaly, but now testing two more, and even with a bit more velocity, penetrating deeper than the same bullet without the Hollow Base, well, something is going on, whether it's "Dart-Stability" as RIP says, or vortex effect as you say, I don't know, past my pay grade, I am just the messenger!

I would agree, there has to be a diminishing point of returns at some point? Absolutely new ground for me too! I think for everyone, I have never heard of such? Discovery, right here on AR, how about that?

Oh my god, can you imagine Sam with a CNC? I would have to Buy the Sun News paper Factory to keep up, Hire at least 50 People to assist, build a new indoor shooting facility, with at least 25 lanes of fire, new 10 foot test boxes, 25 of them, and the story continues--No Sam, you are banned from CNC machines, it will cost me too much to set up and hire people to keep up!

You just keep going to the hardware store, and keep fresh bastard files on hand!

Michael

Good Morning Terminal Performance Thread Guys!!!!!!!!

Wonderful morning here in South Carolina, the weather has broken a bit, cool mornings, warm days! Still a little hot in the afternoon, but 65-70 degree mornings and low humidity are very welcomed here! Whew, yet another July/August behind us! I promise had it not been for the Indoor range, my arse would have done NO TERMINALS this summer at all! And very little other shooting in 100 degree and 90% humidity, I simply would have killed over stone cold dead, end of story! But here we are, survived yet another hot summer!

I am beginning to believe I am not quite as crazy as some of you might think! I had an odd request week before last from North Fork! Of course remember the .500 caliber North Fork tests, the new 450s and 375 FPS/CPS for the B&Ms. Well North Fork requested I "T'Rex" all of them? North Fork, I have never "T'Rexed" any expanding bullet? North Fork, "t'rex" them all, we believe in testing to the extremes, how else can we learn to build a better bullet?"

Now this is coming from North Fork! I repeat, "Test them to the extremes, how else can we learn to build a better bullet?"

I have been saying the same thing, now it comes from one of our Premier Bullet makers in the world, well respected, North Fork! Pretty spiffy I say! I doubt you will hear those words spoken from very many other bullet makers, especially the bigger ones! Oh, they may talk the talk, but they are not going to "walk the walk".

So what else did I do yesterday? I T'Rexed Them all!!!!!!!!!!

Michael

Michael,

I have wondered if I could afford a CNC lathe for my playing, no I couldn't but the way you shoot I could get rich selling you #13's. Lets see how many calibers you shoot over 9.3? I could even start making brass for you. Wow this could be a great business venture! You already have several bullet makers trying to keep you in bullets. I wonder what I could sell BBW stock for?

Sam

Be quite! No CNC's for you! End of story! Trouble, that's what you are!



Now, let me explain T'Rex again, so I make sure we are all on the same page.

While the wet print/magazine mix does put stability stress on the bullets, and separates the good, the bad, the ugly, it still places too little stress on construction, it does not destroy bullets! I needed something to test construction, and it had to be tough, but it had to be within reason. Within Reason? Well, shooting cold rolled steel in my opinion is not reasonable. It must be a test that a bullet can pass, or at least some bullets, and a test that puts extreme stress on a bullet, somewhat tougher than you find in the field under MOST circumstances, but something that if your bullet can get thru this test, it will most likely pass any test you might put it under in the field.

I don't know if I have it right yet, but this is what I am striving to do. Wood and even fiberboard did not do it. Had to be a tougher material, I chose concrete block or what we call "cinder Blocks". Had a bunch left over from the range project. So taking 1 side at a time, busting the block into 1.25 inch thick slabs. 5 Inches Wet Print mix up front, #1 Block, then 15 inches of wet print and the #2 Block, then wet print thereafter.

This seems to be separating the bad and the good, and it is ugly on all of them!

What have I learned from this?

As stated, at first and foremost, it separates good construction and material from not so good! I have only done this with solids to this point, not expanding or Non Con expanding.

I have learned that Brass bullets are the toughest, followed by copper monos. Both do well and both materials are better than the FMJ anything.

I have learned that the round nose FMJ still don't stay on course, and most of the time does not hit the second block, but misses it. Also, the Woodleigh FMJ RN is tougher than the Hornady DGS, staying decently in tact. The Hornady DGS does not do so well in this test. Grossly deforming, but will stay better in line to the second block, if deformation does not go off on one side or the other.

Most FN solids stay the course, most going thru the second block and after that loosing stability.

It's tough, not easy, and that is what we want, we do not wish to give a bullet the easy road, like North Fork says, we can't learn unless we stress the bullet with extremes. This is pretty extreme, but reasonable.

North Fork FPS, Barnes Banded, CEB and SSK designed .500s, and I am betting the BBW #13s all do well in this test, all pass. All solids.

Now some results from yesterdays "T'Rex" tests!

M

First up, the new 450 North Fork FPS in .500 caliber! Designed for the 50 B&M primary, and the 500 MDM secondary, as far as I am concerned. Remember the tests last week, we discovered our 71% meplat was having some issues feeding in the Winchesters, so I requested a 68% meplat. This may be relevant at the end of this post.




As you can see, this is pretty tough on a bullet. It made it to the other side of block #2, but not any further.

Block #1



Block #2




It was a dead straight course through block #2, but stopped just the other side.

I think the new version with 68% meplat might drive a little further, but really it's a moot point on this 450 FPS, it's more than good enough!

I have no worries about this crunching bone and materials!

Michael

Now that North fork bullets are available here,I think I'll pick up a few of the FN solids.It's good to know that I have a bullet that will keep a straight path especially if it feeds in my rifles.

Next up is the 375 North Fork FPS from the little 50 B&M Super Short.





The smaller 375 FPS did not have quite the momentum to go thru the second block, it traveled dead straight and hit it hard, but did not pass thru it. Probably a tad more velocity would have done so, but it is more than enough for my needs in the 50 B&M Super Short.





I am very pleased with this performance. While I don't tout the 50 B&M Super Short as a cartridge for the "Heavies", I believe with these North Forks it would give buffalo a hard time! Right now I think I must find out on my next Australian buff shoot!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Now that North fork bullets are available here,I think I'll pick up a few of the FN solids.It's good to know that I have a bullet that will keep a straight path especially if it feeds in my rifles.

Shootaway

I don't see where you can go wrong with a North Fork! I have tested the 450 NF-FPS, 416 350 FPS, 9.3 286 FPS, and now these .500 calibers of mine, they have all performed to the extreme! This is one of the reasons I am so excited about the New North Forks in .500 caliber.

M

Like I stated, I have never put any expanding bullets or non cons to the T'Rex test. But North Fork likes to test to the extremes, so I put the new .500 caliber Cup Points to the test! I must say with excellent results. But without other expanding bullets to compare with YET, we don't know exactly how good they are? I intend to solve this in the next couple of weeks by putting some of our Conventional Premiums, and Non Conventionals to the "T'Rex" test, just to see how they do in comparison. Should be interesting!


450 North Fork .500 caliber CPS





Somehow I missed getting photos of the actual blocks on this one. Dead straight through Block #1, going straight to #2 and busting it to pieces. Very excellent for an expanding non conventional bullet! A fellow can crunch bones with this one, no doubt! About as good a first shot on buffalo as I can imagine! It has it all, trauma transfer, bone crunching ability, and deep straight penetration, can't ask for much more than that!

Michael

Last but not least of yesterdays T'Rex is the 375 Cup Point .500 caliber, specifically for the 50 Super Short! While it did not hit the second block, it hammered through block number one and continued to penetrate, I would say deep into the vitals to a total of 16 inches, only falling short 4 inches of the mighty 450 gr CPS. Not bad for such a small cartridge and tiny rifle!





As far as I am concerned all the T"Rex tests with the .500 calibers were a great success. Personally, I will go to the field with these, and have extreme confidence they will accomplish any mission I ask of them. Why? Because we put them to the extremes here, if they pass our tests, they will pass in the field too! How do I know this? Been there, done that, for 15 years, that's how!

Michael

Awesome tests. Thank you. Awesome.

I wonder what the 416s will do? When you get
around to them.

Michael,

Kudos to North Fork for requesting that you T’Rex Test their new .500 caliber bullets! Right now one could easily live with the .500 caliber NF 450gr FPS and CPS bullets for all heavy boned DG hunting…and I’m sure I’ll get clobbered for this…but the FPS would also work very nicely on elephant.

And yes that tiny 50 B&M SS has definitely come alive with the two new NF 375gr FPS and CPS bullets!

The T’Rex Test is replicable by anyone who is willing to take the time to do so, just as is your normal single/double box test. Kudos to you for developing and persisting with both tests; I’m sure someone will deny the results applicability just as was done with the test boxes, but you’ll only get a “Thanks” from this thread participant.

Thank you for your efforts in bringing NF and CEB to the .500 caliber table of bullet ware!

Sam,

Hum…a CNC machine rather than bastard Maybe we could take up donations!

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Awesome tests. Thank you. Awesome.

I wonder what the 416s will do? When you get
around to them.

Tanzan

We might get a chance to see some 416s this week. In one of my purchases from North Fork I got a box of 400 gr 416 caliber FPS. If you recall in my 416 B&M with their 18-20 inch barrels, velocities to 2300 fps with 400s, I have trouble stabilizing 400s for terminal penetration with the 1:14 twist barrels. I thought I would check the North Fork bullet out, see if it would stabilize for me. The lighter 370 does great, and has become my solid of choice in the 416 B&M. Well, in that mix, I also got a box of 370 Cup Points to try out. I will T'Rex them and see what happens!

Also this week I am setting up one of the Win M70s 416 Rem to do some test work with expanding 400 gr bullets.

These will be the next test runs, maybe starting tomorrow and running through Tuesday I hope, if nothing interferes with that plan.


M

Jim

Yes, Kudos to North Fork, I think most bullet manufacturers would shy away from test work of any sort, being afraid they might not pass the test? They test in house of course, but most of the time that test work is not released. And if with gel it would not matter anyway as that is not so stressful to the bullet, stability, and certainly not construction.

I can't repeat it enough, from North Fork---If we don't test our bullets to the extreme, how can we build a better bullet?


I can't imagine you getting clobbered for stating the new 450 FPS for the 50 B&M would work on Elephant. Damn right it will. Work rather well too! Everything is there, penetration, stability, construction, velocity, everything you need to hammer one. I would load up in a skinny and never worry about that, the bullet will do, if I do!

I got more news for you. Now in no way is this a recommend for the 50 Super Short as an elephant rifle mind you, but even the 375 FPS has enough penetration to reach the brain of an elephant, and the heart! Elephant are not bullet proof, and have been killed with far less. If a fellow was in the bush with 50 SS, and had an issue with an ele, he would not be in such bad shape with these bullets in the magazine. Now I would not choose them as such, but a fellow could very easy get out of the bush with arms and legs still attached if need be.

What I think is neat as hell, these 375 FPS and CPS put the 50 Super Short in buffalo territory as far as I am concerned. Not the biggest hammer on the block, but more than adequate too.

I have some great bullets in .500 caliber, and the 50 B&M has proven itself in the field with elephant and buffalo no doubt. But the new North Forks are even taking the 50 B&M up a notch too, especially the 450 CPS. This will hammer old buff to the dirt I promise!

Tuesday one can count that samples of the #13 will be on the way to CEB. I want a 500 gr brass BBW #13, same bands, same nose, same 67% meplat, the works. I will also be looking at this #13 in a smaller version, 425--440 for the Lever gun Solid to match with the new 450 North Fork coming. Got to get nose to mouth short enough to work thru the Marlins on this one. In addition I will be talking to CEB about putting a hollow base in some of these as prototypes.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
In addition I will be talking to CEB about putting a hollow base in some of these as prototypes.

M

mate
i am still bewildered about this, we need to test(off course meaning you) some more.
what if this SD really were the only way of descriping the lenght and vortex factor, as they had as little or less possible way of knowing the dynamic making the bullets work.

we use a bullet where the rotating surface is the same on both bullets, but the weight is very different.
the results so far is that weight is really not importent, but the surface and profile is.
could the vortex factor in fluid be what counts, i have had a really fun sunday with a few experiments in water, it only made my head hurt more but fun none the less.

what is this factor if not SD ?

peter