OK have to get to the lab, have a new delivery of Cutting Edge bullets, 512 gr multi band .500 caliber solids and 400 grs of the same style, still in the box and I have to get them out!

M

Dang,
That was quick!
North Fork confirmed, and 72% meplat with a radiused edge.

RIP

North Fork FPS confirmed, 72% as best I can measure of course. Yes--100% good to go!


Michael

So the foster cans deliver the best combo of penetration and trauma is that true?
If so they could be a good skull crusher bullet and get a desirable level of damage for other shots.
The radius edge # 13 bullet with a tad more meplat could be a Texas brain shot bullet. Maybe try to line up the heart on the path too.

quote:

quote:

So the foster cans deliver the best combo of penetration and trauma is that true?

Boomy

No, that is not correct. What I said, or meant to say, is that I did not notice anymore trauma to medium with the hydro than I did with a normal FPS. There was not enough difference to pay much attention to. A lot less penetration than the North Fork FPS, but that is expected, it's a cup point, it is supposed to be less penetration.

I will put a Woodleigh hydro to the T'Rex test when I get a chance to do so. I don't think a cup point would be proper T"Rex bullet. I think it would be a great buffalo bullet, but I question a cup point on heavy bone. I might be wrong, a T'Rex test would tell us.

Michael

Good Night Guys, catch you in the morning.

M

quote:

It would be interesting to see a .500" 440 grain .251 SD 67% meplat radius edge JDJ bullet nose profile at 2,100 impact velocity and see what the differential is at higher impact velocity.

Boom,
Michael already has that bullet, actually two bullets - one FN @ 445gr and one Slotted FN @451gr. These photos are pulled from page 6 of this thread:


though obviously those wide bands need to be cut into multiple narrow wide bands.

One of our pals here on terminals is going buffalo shooting in a couple of weeks, Austringer! Austringer had a few questions about the bullet he was going to use, a 458 caliber 450 North Fork Bonded Core bullet. Two issues, one was the lower velocity of his double in 450 NE and then a 458 Lott also. I advised to use the North Fork in both. His velocity in the 450 NE is 2125 fps at the muzzle, and I advised anything from 2250 to 2300 in the 458 Lott, and that both velocities would do just dandy on buffalo. But to put it to rest I requested he send 4-5 bullets and I would target those velocities and we would test them for him. He did. I did!



Not sure what I like best just yet, the damn box, or the bullets?

I used the 458 B&M to target the velocity of the 450 NE at 2125 fps, I came pretty damn close.





I tried to target 2250 or so with the 458 Lott, but I came up a tiny bit short.





Austringer, as a rule of thumb that I go by, anything that penetrates the test medium from 18 inches up is a "Buffalo Bullet". Both of these velocities hit that mark. I think you are good to go.

Michael

quote:

One of our pals here on terminals is going buffalo shooting in a couple of weeks, Austringer! Austringer had a few questions about the bullet he was going to use, a 458 caliber 450 North Fork Bonded Core bullet. Two issues, one was the lower velocity of his double in 450 NE and then a 458 Lott also. I advised to use the North Fork in both. His velocity in the 450 NE is 2125 fps at the muzzle, and I advised anything from 2250 to 2300 in the 458 Lott, and that both velocities would do just dandy on buffalo. But to put it to rest I requested he send 4-5 bullets and I would target those velocities and we would test them for him. He did. I did!

Possible warning need here!!!

The 450gr .458 caliber NF Bonded Core bullet is the older “non-bore riding” design and that is solid groove diameter copper from the upper groove until the nose radius finally arrives at the bore diameter. It is fine with bolt and single shot rifles but may cause issue with older thinner wall double rifles.

Again…this seem to be an issue only with older DRs as new manufacture DR seem to have no problem with this bullet.

Michael,

I can't believe you already conducted the test! I wasn't expecting you to get the bullets before this afternoon. THANK YOU!

After talking to you I was confident the bullet would be fine at those lower velocities, but it is really good to see the test results. North Fork obviously deserve the great reputation they enjoy.

Your remark about the box made me laugh, those are pretty much the exact words I said to my wife when I received my first bullets from NF.

Well, hopefully I'll have a report for you on how the bullets performed for me on buffalo in a little over a month.

Capoward:

I have a new Sabatti double rifle, I think it will be just fine.

Austringer

Yes, I received the bullets night before last, got them put together friday morning, did some test work with Swifts to get the low velocity right in the 458 B&M, then loaded 1 North Fork, tested it to make sure the velocity was good and the rest is history. I missed the velocity in the 458 Lott by a bit, but it's moot, they will be just as good at 2250-2300 as they were at 2225. I suspect you will get the attention of any buffalo you bust with the North Forks.

OK, how about solids? What are you planning to back up the Softs with?

The North Fork Box is just very nice. The red letters against that rustic background is just appealing to me! I think it makes for nice test photos to show the cartridges and bullets involved in the test!

Oh, and I think all should take notice of the really nice Woodleigh Packaging, they spared no expense eh?



Yes we will all be looking for a "Buffalo Bullet" report when you return!

Before I had much experience I was told about a fellow that just hunted buffalo, didn't care much about the other critters, just buffalo. I thought how odd that was, at that time early in my endeavors I thought buffalo was the most boring of all of the big guys. Well fortunately I grew up, got some experience in most all areas, and now I know the draw, it's for sure "BUFFALO" for me. Every time I think of a bullet, I think "How will this do on Buffalo?" I will shoot most anything of course, but what I go for is the buffalo!

Michael

quote:

Not sure what I like best just yet, the damn box, or the bullets?

I'll tell the lady that did the art work for the box that so many folks like it. As an aside, she also made the original art work for the Celestial Seasonings herbal tea company back before they had two nickles to rub together. At least I paid her for the drawing. I thought it was a masterpiece myself. All done with dots.

NFMike

Yes, do tell the nice lady that the box is a success. She did a great job, and so did you!

I suppose we must have a "Battle of The Boxes" now?



Michael

Oh come now, I expected more of a response on the Box Wars! Nothing? No one has Nothing to say?

M

That is funny, you would think Woodleigh could package those Hydros in a nice box. I guess they spent all of their money on R&D.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
That is funny, you would think Woodleigh could package those Hydros in a nice box. I guess they spent all of their money on R&D.

Mike



Ain't it the truth! The most expensive bullet in the photo, and come in a plastic bag! What a hoot!

Barnes and Hornady have both done upgrades on the boxes the last few years! Time for Woodleigh to get a decent box I think!

Hey, you are a short timer right? Time is coming up soon? Buffalo/Elephant, North Forks? I know you tell me this about once a week, but I forget things quick!

Michael

It's because they only pack 10 at a time in SAMPLE packs
because people wanted to buy or try a few to try before a full box.


michael458

Where did you get your Hydro's from ?

Did you buy them or were you given them ?

Shot Show ?
.

500N

It's because Geoff is getting CHEAP!


Kidding of course.

I got these from Midway! They have them in stock. I got 450 gr 458s and 286 9.3s. Bought and paid for.

They drove straight and true, exactly as designed, and like a cup point is supposed to do, not as deep penetration as a FN.

Michael

My Hydros came from Huntingtons. Leaving in 10 days.

Does a fancy box make the bullets kill elephants any better than those from a plain box?

465H&H

I love the way North Fork pack their bullets in styro and Macifej packs his bullets.
Woodleigh bullets look like generic food labeling.
Simple can be elegant or ugly but Woodleigh needs to throw their packing in the billabong. Maybe take the same marketing ideas from "Thunder from Down Under"

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Does a fancy box make the bullets kill elephants any better than those from a plain box?

465H&H

465HH


Where have you been?

You might just have made an "Excellent" point!

Now without prejudice, and based on test work of all sorts, and field work by myself and others, I would have to say that the boxes line up pretty well in order of their performance! Let's look at it.

Of course we all know I really like the North Fork box, it just happens to perform Superbly on the heavies from all I hear. While I myself have yet to use one in the field, that will change. Mike is going to be using them in his 470 very soon, and just happened to give him the best performance of all the bullets he has tested. I think it will do just that in the field too!

I like the new Barnes box too, Black, red, gold, nice colors. They also happen to perform excellent in the test work, and from my experience in the field, excellent there as well!

Thirdly I like the new Hornady box also, not quite as well as North Fork and Barnes box, but that red is catchy, of course I like red too! While it is trying hard, it's just not quite up to the North Fork and Barnes performance. While it does well in the field, as you yourself can attest to, it's still not the bullet the North Fork is, nor the Barnes Banded! Tests prove that beyond doubt, just in meplat size and construction of the bullet.

Woodleighs! They are making great strides, and in the literature for the Hydros they repeat several times, "Keeping up with MODERN Solids", meaning that some designs are "Not" so modern. While I think the Hydro might be a superb bullet for buffalo for sure, I am not so sure about elephant just yet. I have a question in my mind about the cup deforming on bone, and then what? Now it might be just fine, but I want to find out in a T'Rex test just how it does with that. Of course "Old Yeller" we know what sort of "other" types of solids/fmj come in that box.

Now, quickly I will relate a story to you, then I have to get back on the range. I am not a "wine" person. I really don't care for it much, gives me heartburn. So one day the wife and I are out, we decide to try some wine. Knowing very little to nothing about wine, we choose a very expensive bottle. Very Expensive, it's gotta be good, right? Then I choose a bottle of wine, merely because I like the "Bottle" and no other reason. It was CHEAP, not expensive at all. So we get home, put the wine away, couple of days decide to try this really expensive stuff. This crap was so bad I spit it out in the sink! Wife, nearly the same, not quite the barbarian I am, she "swallowed". HEh! Not so good, I poured this crap down the sink and it was history. Opened the CHEAP bottle, damn it was pretty good, and the only reason I bought it was because I liked the bottle!

So maybe there is something to this Box thing after all?




Back to the Range now!

Michael

Penetration for the Woody Hydros was nearly as deep and straight as the North Fork FN Solids i my tests.

I think what helped the Hydro performance is I keep them in a North Fork box.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Penetration for the Woody Hydros was nearly as deep and straight as the North Fork FN Solids i my tests.

I think what helped the Hydro performance is I keep them in a North Fork box.

Well, there you go, that says it all! Put the hydros in a North Fork box, and it's magic from then on! Hey, I know, I have probably several hundred .4725 caliber 500 gr Woodleigh FMJ, I will send them to you, put them in the North Fork Box for 1 week, then try them and see how they do?

That would be the Ultimate Box test!

Ok, more serious note. As you see from last weeks tests of the Hydros and the North Forks, 458 caliber 450s each and 366 caliber 286s each. In both cases the North Forks did what they were supposed to do, deep and straight, the Hydros did what they were supposed to do as a cup point, not as deep, but still dead straight. There was a significant difference in the depth of penetration of the North Fork FPS and the Hydro CPS--Exactly as there should have been.

The difference that you and I are looking at is our mix we each use. Yours straight up news print and mine about 30-35% catalogs/magazines. My mix is just a bit more dense, than straight wet print. Basic behavior not much difference between the two, but a bullet can do some better in the straight wet print than the mix of catalogs and magazines. As you and I have discussed in the beginning when you started testing your own.

10 Days! I expect big things from you young fellow! You have no excuses now! Don't go over there and make me ashamed of you! You have the right bullet, a good caliber, velocity, and you shoot well enough, no alibis now! You must wear proper attire! I expect photos of you and dead critters in the proper manner! Big Smile, because you have done your homework now!

Can't wait to get the reports!!!!!!!!!! We are all going to be with you there!



OK, back to the range again!

M

I will be taking a few elephant this fall and I intend to use my 470 Searcy and the new Woodleigh 500 grain Hydro bullet. Will report back on how it works compared to the NFs I used last year.

465H&H

465HH

Excellent! Will be looking for a report on that for sure! You never said too much about the North Forks--or did I forget? Remember a lot of talk about the Hornady, but not so much about the North Forks?

What velocity for the Hydros? I think I am doing a T'Rex on the Hydros this week, the 450 458s. Might try your velocity.

Michael

OK, now it seems everyone wants to get their entries in for the best Bullet Box! Here is the first entry from;




And now the Second Entry after a redesign!

Is this like the evening gown part of the miss universe competition where nobody cares what the wrappings are but what's underneath
I like the understated bubba simplicity from the Bastard Bullet Works entry.
Now contestants if you could only have one wish what would it be and how do you feel about gay marriage?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Is this like the evening gown part of the miss universe competition where nobody cares what the wrappings are but what's underneath
I like the understated bubba simplicity from the Bastard Bullet Works entry.
Now contestants if you could only have one wish what would it be and how do you feel about gay marriage?

Boomy

Good One!



Capoward has been nagging about a more pointy bullet in .500 caliber for his very own 50 MDM project! Nag Nag Nag, wants to shoot a 50 at 250-300 yds, I don't know why, hell I can't see 250 yds anyway!
I have some very very nice professional drawings, that are top secret material, that I have been promising to get to CEB for Capo, but just have not made it yet!

Now, somehow, Bastard Bullet Works got the damn drawing? Now they have copied Capos Design! I see infringement issues here! I happened to be able to break into Bastard Bullet Works top secret facility and snap some big time super spy photos of these new bullets, anyone want to see them?

Capo, you out there, want to see what your bullet looks like?????

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
500N

They drove straight and true, exactly as designed, and like a cup point is supposed to do, not as deep penetration as a FN.

Michael

Hell, the one's I've fired into Buffalo (500/465) and the one's seen done,
have a real problem keeping them in to get a recovery.

Have seen them end to end on a Buffalo - so just how much penetration do you want ????

LOL

I know it is never enough for you !!! LOL

.

500N

I believe what you say about penetration on buffalo, easy. If my calibration is anywhere close then you should be getting something along the lines of 5-5.5 feet of penetration in animal tissue with the hydros! Does that sound about right? Close, in the ballpark?

You know better than to ask me how much penetration I want! Give me 5 feet, I am gonna want 6 feet!

All I ask for is 3 things of my bullet, Penetration, Penetration, Penetration!

No man, the hydros I tested last week did very well. Dead straight too. I was a little surprised that they did not go off course just slightly at the end, but they did not. They maintained stability right to the end.

I was a little disappointed that I could not see any difference in trauma transfer between the hydros and the North Forks. I actually expected a little more damaged medium, but if it was there, I could not see it.

I know you boys are really proud that you have now entered into the world of Modern Solids, as written by Woodleigh, not me! As well you should be, it's time! Congratulations. I also see from the literature that they are working on a steel cap for the Hydro? I would assume that would be to harden the bullets tip? Possibly there has been some deformation of the cup? Did I also see that a version was coming with a "flat Nose", no cup??? There are reasons for these two improvements.

I will make it a point to do a T'Rex on the 458 and 9.3 versions sometime this week.

Remember 500N---Penetration is Everything!


Michael

Oh, I almost forgot! The "Top Secret" "Spy Photos" I managed to steal from "Bastard bullet Works" of Capowards new .500 caliber SPITZER high BC long range bullet for 300 yds!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
500N

I believe what you say about penetration on buffalo, easy. If my calibration is anywhere close then you should be getting something along the lines of 5-5.5 feet of penetration in animal tissue with the hydros! Does that sound about right? Close, in the ballpark?

You know better than to ask me how much penetration I want! Give me 5 feet, I am gonna want 6 feet!

All I ask for is 3 things of my bullet, Penetration, Penetration, Penetration!

No man, the hydros I tested last week did very well. Dead straight too. I was a little surprised that they did not go off course just slightly at the end, but they did not. They maintained stability right to the end.

I was a little disappointed that I could not see any difference in trauma transfer between the hydros and the North Forks. I actually expected a little more damaged medium, but if it was there, I could not see it.

I know you boys are really proud that you have now entered into the world of Modern Solids, as written by Woodleigh, not me! As well you should be, it's time! Congratulations. I also see from the literature that they are working on a steel cap for the Hydro? I would assume that would be to harden the bullets tip? Possibly there has been some deformation of the cup? Did I also see that a version was coming with a "flat Nose", no cup??? There are reasons for these two improvements.

I will make it a point to do a T'Rex on the 458 and 9.3 versions sometime this week.

Remember 500N---Penetration is Everything!


Michael

Mike

5 - 5.5 ft - easy for a Hydro. Because they don't "open up" like a Woodleigh SN, they tend to exit on side on shots on Buff (from what I have seen) whereas because you have a large frontal area on an opened up SN (ie my 500/465), this tends NOT to punch through the skin on the off side.


"steel cap for the Hydro ?"

The Original test bullets all had steel caps screwed on - I carried one for 2 weeks but no buffalo would stand end on to me to allow a test so they all died with SN.

I am not sure what they are doing with them (steel caps) in the future.


"some deformation of the cup?"

Not that I have seen but I only fired a few and it is only soft material and some bones in Buffalo are like Rock - Jaw, Spine. You would have to ask.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael458:
Capoward has been nagging about a more pointy bullet in .500 caliber for his very own 50 MDM project! Nag Nag Nag, wants to shoot a 50 at 250-300 yds, I don't know why, hell I can't see 250 yds anyway!
I have some very very nice professional drawings, that are top secret material, that I have been promising to get to CEB for Capo, but just have not made it yet!

Now, somehow, Bastard Bullet Works got the damn drawing? Now they have copied Capos Design! I see infringement issues here! I happened to be able to break into Bastard Bullet Works top secret facility and snap some big time super spy photos of these new bullets, anyone want to see them?

Capo, you out there, want to see what your bullet looks like?????

Michael

Does a pig squeal?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Oh, I almost forgot! The "Top Secret" "Spy Photos" I managed to steal from "Bastard bullet Works" of Capowards new .500 caliber SPITZER high BC long range bullet for 300 yds!

Sam…all I can say is WOW! That sure looks a lot better than my drawing!

Michael did you happen to slide it on a scale for weight?

So what do ya’ll think about the bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
465HH

Excellent! Will be looking for a report on that for sure! You never said too much about the North Forks--or did I forget? Remember a lot of talk about the Hornady, but not so much about the North Forks?

What velocity for the Hydros? I think I am doing a T'Rex on the Hydros this week, the 450 458s. Might try your velocity.

Michael

Michael,

I reported on the results of the Hornady DGS and NF FN solids in the last issue of African Hunter. Both were covered in depth. On here the main interest was in the DGS because there wasn't much info on their performance on elephants while there has been a lot of reports on the NF solids.

465H&H

Yep. Might have to pay Jay a 25 cent per bullet licensing fee for his patented SHARCC fin crimp driving band design. It is pretty cool and birthed here on AR. Just a thought maybe get rid of a few of the lower bands and best in copper with a petal design. If the brass one breaks open the bullet might reverse in media.

You mean someone else came up with my band design before me? I thought I had at least one original idea!

Sam

500N

Well then my calibration was pretty close at 5-5.5 feet. Excellent, means I am pretty close on track.

I read about the steel cap briefly yesterday on the website.

I don't know that the hydro would deform, I am mostly just curious as to if it could is all. That's the reason for the T'Rex block test I do for construction. I would like to see if it would deform and how that would effect penetration.

Capoward

I knew I could draw you out! Yes that is a pretty good looking bullet Sam cooked up! I don't have them yet, I suppose Bastard Bullet Works just cooked that up in the last day or so? If I get my hands on a few of these, I can even get a BC on them, if you want?

Will know the weight, and could see how that is going to do at velocity and range!!

465HH

I don't read African Hunter. But I do have your articles, will look back through.

Michael

Just tell me what you want them to weigh and I'll try to get what you want. Michael you're right it was raining today so I cooked it up from memory after sneaking a peek at your files.

Worked with the 510 CEBs today, along with some other test work with the 500 MDM, brass tests.

Tomorrow I have two brand new boxes of medium, will be working with all the rest of Sams JDJ designs, I intend to pick the best of the best, send it to CEB for a prototype run, then have some made if all goes well. Gonna be hard to beat that #13, but there is more to be done!

Also will be working with the 400gr CEB tomorrow too.

Will try and start getting some things posted soon as I can get the tests done, photos a data recorded!

Off to roost for me! It's been a long day since 4 am this morning!

M