A hearty thanks for braving the heat. Hope you had some fun. Well from what I gather it is all about fluid dynamics thus the Hydro. Might call the copy the hydra . The Hydra might be a better name for the petal shearing bullets tho. Would be great to make a Hydro with less bearing surface for doubles for the 470, 500 and 577
Looking forward to the info.

quote:

What I can't understand just yet about the Woodleigh Hydro is the cup point! Under almost all circumstances the cup point reduces penetration, not increases? No flies on the WOodleigh, and I too recall Mike testing the 470 Woodleighs, deep! Now how can that cup point be doing that? Something we intend to investigate! As I have developed a curiosity about these cup points.

Clue: I believe you will find that the Woodleigh Cup Point DOES NOT EXPAND as do the other cup point bullets (North Fork for example). There is a steel nose cup point in the works at Woodleigh to double insure that.

Michael,

I made it home and boy did we have fun today. I think shooting the 577 is great fun even from a bench. Thanks for everything and I look forward to reading the results. Its all running together at this point so I'll have to wait to read all the data.

Sam

Sam

Glad you made it home safe. Currently, I made it to the Big Chair if front of the TV. I never even made it to getting the labels done! Yes, without all those notes we made today, it's running together for me too, except for that 710 or 715 gr bullet right after the 750 Barnes! That one stands out!

IBT

Sam and I have done a few cup points in brass, no deformation at all, less penetration. In fact it was a very tiny cup point, much less penetration, same weight bullet, same meplat size, same everything, side by side. Hmmmm? Something to look at I think.


Boomy

I don't know about hydros being safe or not for doubles. The Woodleigh guy, Geoff I think, says they are double safe. 500N has worked with them and I think in a double, he might can answer that.

Sam made some exact duplicates of some of the 430 gr bullets we tested in the meplat test last week. They have cup points, nice ones to. Will test these soon as I can. I am out next week, so no test work next week, so will do so the following.

We will see!

Data will start to flow sometime in the morning. Also have got a start on adding terminal performance to the B&M website, it's going to be just dandy. I will take the work we have done here, put it in one place, all together, this way, we can see some of the stuff we did 6 months ago, or 40 pages ago! I only have the meplat test right now, but plan to add by caliber everything, then special tests stand alone.


Michael

Michael,

The website is looking really good, very nice work! Looking forward to your's and Sam's testing results.

From a page ago, we can also ask about that 166 grain 6.5 bullet of 57 inch penetration.
What was it's bullet length?

I still think that its gyro-stability factor would not have it flying stable, and I would like to know what you (Michael) thought was suspicious about its entry hole.

Michael may have just discovered that gyro instability in flight can still have good terminal stability if the meplat is 67% !
There was another test round back around page 40 or 60 where the rifling didn't engage but the bullet penetrated straight.

From this we might hypothesize that if we can get a projectile to the target, a 67% meplat will take over and lead straight thru the target. We already do something similar with expanding bullets, not worrying about tumbling and turning once nose first, expanding impact has occurred.

To add a crazy thought to the 6.5 tests:

The 166 grain at 2550fps had 17% more momentum than the 128 grain at 2825 fps. But it outpentrated 42% more 57"/40". That almost looks like the square of the SD density would go into any pentration formula.

To add a crazy thought to the 6.5 tests:

The 166 grain at 2550fps had 17% more momentum than the 128 grain at 2825 fps. But it outpentrated 42% more 57"/40". That almost looks like the square of the SD density (or some kind of momental density) would go into any pentration formula.

Needs testings.

quote:

Sam and I have done a few cup points in brass, no deformation at all, less penetration. In fact it was a very tiny cup point, much less penetration, same weight bullet, same meplat size, same everything, side by side. Hmmmm? Something to look at I think.

I suppose that means trying different depths and designs of the cup starting with a duplication of the Woodleigh Cup Point .

Guess Michael is writing and writing and writing right now... We are looking much forward to read about your latest testing Michael - and Sam..

Working on it right now. Be posting soon, 30 minutes something like that.
M

Tanzan

I have no doubts at all that a proper meplat solid can in fact "Self Stabilize" itself. I have seen it happen. The bullet you refer to with ZERO engraving is out of my 470 Capsticks with the oversize barrels and the 500 gr Barnes Banded. It self stabilized, while none of the others could. I did not test the North Forks, Mike offered to send some, I told him it was a waste of an excellent bullet to put them in my Capsticks. On hind sight now, I know the North Forks are .474 caliber, I might get SOME engraving on them and with their 70% meplat, I know they would be stable during terminal penetration, no doubt of it.

Now just for a brief moment, I did in fact think that it was possible that 166 6.5 solid "MIGHT" have not hit just right, and that it might just have self stabilized with it's large meplat for caliber. I cannot state that as a fact however, it was a sample of only 1 and therefore no conclusions can be drawn at all. Also, it is very difficult to tell about the entrance, the large meplat bullets hit hard, they disturb material and no way to say for sure if the bullet hit square on or not??? I would have to have several more bullets to test outside the box where I can see entrance holes at 25 yds and then back to 50 yds to be sure of aerial stability. For sure, no doubt about it, it is terminally stable, and more samples would prove that beyond doubt.

IBT

Be quite Please! Sam may hear you, and before you know it next week I have 20 new samples to test! I am behind as it is with the test work!

My Contention is this, until I am proven wrong, by myself, I don't really think the cup point aids in depth of penetration of the Woodleigh bullet. I can't see how it could. I might be wrong, and I promise I don't have enough experience yet to say for sure. I will however at some point. I am interested in the cup points for several reasons, I think at this point they induce more trauma to target by moving fluids, I think they limit penetration. In the very few cases I have tested the cup points, 1 test with our own .500 caliber 510 gr, cup point/no cup point, ONLY 1 Sample on hand there was zero difference in depth of penetration. It was not the same sort of cup as some other bullets. Another example was a 577 that Sam did, one flat meplat, one very shallow cup. At the time, I told Sam on the range, No difference Sam between them! I was wrong! The flat went 50+ inches I recall, the shallow cup to 40 inches, I was surprised, but again, Sample of one, conclusions--inconclusive! Next, the 450 North Forks. Tested the standard NF 450 FN a few times now, standard 55-57 inches penetration as I recall, the same exact bullet in the cup point, 40 inches, by memory. Big difference. So I am looking at it. I might be wrong, maybe all cup points are not created equal? I suspect that is the case. Sam has some exact matches with the meplat test we did a week or so ago. Same bullet, 65% meplat, cup point in the end. I place bets that it gives significantly LESS penetration, but still dead straight! We will see soon as I can get a chance, maybe this week.

577 Nitro TIME!!!!!!!!!!!

First, the test rifle!!!! Thanks to Sam, I am getting a little more double experience, all take note!








I even let Sam shoot his own rifle a few times, but he had to pry it from my hands, I think he might have slapped me once to get it back, not sure, I really did not want to let it go. It was only one of those ""Bring me back to reality slaps"" didn't even really notice it.



Good Stuff, lot's and lot's of fun. Sam shoots it better than I do for sure. I shoot it fairly much to the left about an inch, and I can't see the irons too good.

Michael

Needed a decent base line to start things off---This lubed and non-lubed deal is Sam lubing some of these bullets to see if pressures may be lower.

Sam had a couple of extremely wicked 750 Barnes TSX to test.

"
IBT

Be quite Please! Sam may hear you, and before you know it next week I have 20 new samples to test! I am behind as it is with the test work!

My Contention is this, until I am proven wrong, by myself, I don't really think the cup point aids in depth of penetration of the Woodleigh bullet. I can't see how it could. I might be wrong, and I promise I don't have enough experience yet to say for sure. I will however at some point. I am interested in the cup points for several reasons, I think at this point they induce more trauma to target by moving fluids, I think they limit penetration. In the very few cases I have tested the cup points, 1 test with our own .500 caliber 510 gr, cup point/no cup point, ONLY 1 Sample on hand there was zero difference in depth of penetration. It was not the same sort of cup as some other bullets. Another example was a 577 that Sam did, one flat meplat, one very shallow cup. At the time, I told Sam on the range, No difference Sam between them! I was wrong! The flat went 50+ inches I recall, the shallow cup to 40 inches, I was surprised, but again, Sample of one, conclusions--inconclusive! Next, the 450 North Forks. Tested the standard NF 450 FN a few times now, standard 55-57 inches penetration as I recall, the same exact bullet in the cup point, 40 inches, by memory. Big difference. So I am looking at it. I might be wrong, maybe all cup points are not created equal? I suspect that is the case. Sam has some exact matches with the meplat test we did a week or so ago. Same bullet, 65% meplat, cup point in the end. I place bets that it gives significantly LESS penetration, but still dead straight! We will see soon as I can get a chance, maybe this week.[/QUOTE]

"The depressed nose at the leading edge of the bullet 'cores' the medium (flesh) through which it is travelling which then creates a 'pressure ring'. The coring and pressure ring balance each other out to stabilise the bullet in the direction of travel. If the bullet hits hard bone the flesh core dissipates but immediately reforms and the balance between it and the pressure ring restabilises to redirect the bullet in the original direction of travel.

Additional benefits of this design are that the pressure ring creates a devastating wound channel and massive hydraulic shock transfer. The bullet actually travels in a low pressure cavitation bubble which aids in bullet stabilisation and greatly increases penetration due to significant reductions in frictional forces acting on the bullet."

My problem with explainations like this is that there is a BIG difference between recording the observation of an event and creating an explaination as to cause and effect.

As for additional work - I believe that you are caught in the flow: "Flow is the mental state of operation in which a person in an activity is fully immersed in a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and success in the process of the activity. Proposed by Mihály Csíkszentmihályi, the positive psychology concept has been widely referenced across a variety of fields.

According to Csíkszentmihályi, flow is completely focused motivation. It is a single-minded immersion and represents perhaps the ultimate in harnessing the emotions in the service of performing and learning. In flow the emotions are not just contained and channeled, but positive, energized, and aligned with the task at hand. To be caught in the ennui of depression or the agitation of anxiety is to be barred from flow. The hallmark of flow is a feeling of spontaneous joy, even rapture, while performing a task."

As this is an extremely desired state of life, I accept your thanks for contributing to your present state. Just be careful to remember basic hygine, nutrition and an occassional social interaction with family and loved ones. The term "starving artist" some times applies to those caught in the flow who forget all other basic functions.

Hmm, those 2 bands look like different metal and nose. The 47 vs. 57" penteration will need some explaining.

The 2 band bullets are the same brass as all the other bullets I made 360. The reason they look different is they were made longer ago and have tarnished.

Sam

The pictures are great and a great part of this thread.

I think this is it, although I would not swear it. There are a lot of 577 bullets on the bench right now!

This is my most FAVORITE of the entire bunch! Now this is a lot of different samples, some anomalies here and there, the lube and it's effect on penetration, strange? Samples like this, if one sees something that seems to work, then you do a lot more tests with that bullet. Logistics sometimes limits the samples tested, sometimes not enough samples to be 100% conclusive. Like I said, something that does well, works in the rifle well, test some more. I can't tell you how many times I have put the 510 .500 caliber solid in the mix, many many times, same with some other bullets I work with on a regular basis. No, a sample of one really gets you little, a sample of two gets you further along and in some instances can be conclusive depending on the results. So there it is.

OK again, this bullet was my favorite out of the bunch we tested yesterday. Consistent penetration, dead spot on regulation, little bearing surface for doubles (of which I am not qualified to determine) and excellent stability. This is the one I would test more if I were looking for a Winchester in 577 Nitro! HEH!





There it is, I think this is all???

Now the discussions can begin

Michael

IBT

Thanks, I think, hmmmmm??? OK, that's good, I sorta get it, give me some time on that one, I think it's good? Ok, well...................anyway?????


I appreciate it, I think?

LOL

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
The pictures are great and a great part of this thread.

Tanzan

Thanks, it's not hard to do, adds a lot to just blah blah blah Eh?

quote:

The 47 vs. 57" penteration will need some explaining

Oh yes, this is a good question "Lubed/Not Lubed" I don't have an answer, but there is some consistency to this "InConsistency" with Lubed/Not Lubed, and the best I can answer this is
"I don't Know"

Here I can just report the exact results as they occurred. ?????

M

Tanzan

To add to my "I don't Know" answer, I have not had time yet to digest everything we did yesterday either.

What I can say now is that the lubed bullets gave less velocity, indicating less pressure I suppose. Now, the non lubed bullets seemed to give less penetration, but more consistent. Lubed bullets seemed to give a little deeper penetration, but seemed to be less stable at the end, at least in one case, other case with one sample is inconclusive. So regardless, I still don't know.

M

Oh my god, now I just took us to page 83, now with discussion will have to refer back to page 82.

M

Very interesting…Lube the bullet, lose 50-60fps but gain 8”-10” additional penetration!!! Definitely interesting!

Now regarding the 715 Sam 2-Band…works well would kill just as well. Understanding that Sam’s intent is to reduce bullet to barrel friction while simultaneously reducing pressure and increasing velocity. So…how about trying this…cut the band width in half and double the number of bands to four, Edit Added: two bands top and two bands bottom with a full band width gap between each set of bands, will have the same amount of bearing surface so will not increase bullet to barrel friction but would perhaps give better bullet within cartridge neck squareness and an upper crimp groove should it be needed. Might also try 67%-68% meplat, should maintain within-mass straight-line stability but likely will result in greater depth of penetration.

That’s it. To both of you great job!

Jim

Yep, lube. How about that. I don't know, strange. Well changing the bands, that's Sam's department, I am just the monkey on this one.

Good analysis however, nothing that I would not expect from you anyway! I will say that the quality of Sam's samples were very excellent. I am not returning them to him either, maybe I will let him have one, but you know me, I hoard bullets.

Something about bullets, I rather have bullets than........well, lots of things! I like bullets, can't have too many!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Hmm, those 2 bands look like different metal and nose. The 47 vs. 57" penteration will need some explaining.

"Lucy you got some splaining to do"! Yeah the 685 gr 2 band bullets are a little different. The pair are identical and the single one was one of the first I made with that bastard file. I had another single bullet that weighed 675 and was multi band that was to be the match to the single 685 grain. I was trying to see the difference in 2 band verses multi band. Maybe I didn't get this accross to Michael. Michael should have that data also. The single 685 grain also had less bearing surface than the pair of 685's. I hope this will clear up any questions you might have. I did the best I could for this first of hopefully many more double rifle bullet tests.

Sam

A few observations
The 675 grain 577 bastard file bullet has a sharp edge and looks like sone expansion from the photo. Is this true? Those two things could be limiting the penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Hmm, those 2 bands look like different metal and nose. The 47 vs. 57" penteration will need some explaining.

"Lucy you got some splaining to do"! Yeah the 685 gr 2 band bullets are a little different. The pair are identical and the single one was one of the first I made with that bastard file. I had another single bullet that weighed 675 and was multi band that was to be the match to the single 685 grain. I was trying to see the difference in 2 band verses multi band. Maybe I didn't get this accross to Michael. Michael should have that data also. The single 685 grain also had less bearing surface than the pair of 685's. I hope this will clear up any questions you might have. I did the best I could for this first of hopefully many more double rifle bullet tests.

Sam

I will look back thru everything and see what I missed. Very possible. Seems I had a bullet that had no label??? I will look.

M

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
A few observations
The 675 grain 577 bastard file bullet has a sharp edge and looks like sone expansion from the photo. Is this true? Those two things could be limiting the penetration.

Good catch Boom. Definate a sharpe edge on the meplat, not sure if the perceived expansion is photo distortion or truly slight nose expansion. Also looks like a nicked edge on the left bullet...again not sure if photo distortion.

Michael will need to measure the fired and unfired meplat to resolve this delimna. Perhaps tomorrow morning in the cool of the morning.

The nick you see is where the bullet hit a staple while going through the mix. I don't think the bullet expanded any. Michael correct me if I'm wrong.

Sam

To all, Just so you will know that all 577's used in the test were loaded with 119 grains of Reloder 15 and all but the 715 grain 2 band bullets had 5/8" backer rod foam filler cut to 5/8 length. The 715 gr 2 band had same powder charge but I had run out of backer rod and used a 28 gauge fiber wad in this load. 119 grains of RL 15 is listed as max load in Gramme Wrights book but I think from velocity it could use a little more. Lubing of the bullets was done with Lyman moly cast bullet lube. I think this did reduce pressures and made velocity lower. The barrels on the Demas 577 were 24 inches long so may not be able to get to 2150 fps with a safe load.

Sam

The sharp edges are making the tests unequal. If you add the radius all things will be equal. Are you having fun yet Michael?