quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael, any updates on the switcheroo ?

Maybe!

You play nice or I'll sick Marco on you!

I am told I am a nice sort of chap! So here is the scoop--All in good time! Be patient!

Yes you are a nice chap and then some. I'm just an exuberant gun geek
It's exciting to see good ideas cone together. Patience is not my strong point lol
I'll try to be patient
Have you gotten Marco to say "Non con" yet

Marko! I can't get him past "Noc Noc", but still working on it! He takes orders better from Mercedes than me!

LOL

Would be interesting to see the terminal results from a tipped .500 non con in a 12 gauge sabot. They make the sabots for .500" bullets so I assume you could either take out the loaded .500 bullet on a loaded shell or add one if you reload.

Just had a Pac-Nor installed on a .338-06AI. They qouted me 3 months, but it took over 6. . . . . . . .

Estimating 2,000 fps with lighter .500" bullets in a 12 gauge sabot I'm curious to see what the flat point and non cons perform in the mix with zero twist.

I'm glad you brought that up.
The US-S slugs are for a smooth bore and are shaped simular to the flat nosed solids that have performed so well.
I would love to see if they track straight in Doc M's media.
I'm waiting for a US distributer to start selling these things.
The question is: Does the shape of the bullet negate the need of rifling stability at the time of bullet impact?

My "knee jerk" opinion is that the only bullet that can track straight with no twist is a round ball.
But only testing will tell.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Estimating 2,000 fps with lighter .500" bullets in a 12 gauge sabot I'm curious to see what the flat point and non cons perform in the mix with zero twist.

Boomy

OK, I am now curious as well as to how the 67% and 68% meplats of the BBW#13 and North Fork as well could do in such a test, smooth bore! I banned shotguns from the range a long time ago, was sighting in a slug gun for a pal, went down to 50 yd target, wads had torn the acoustic foam. Now that the walls and foam are protected by the lattice I would not mind testing that, at the 25 yd bench.

Problem is, I don't and never have loaded a shotgun shell? Pretty sure I can find a M870 laying around here somewhere however? I suppose I could just cut or open the end of one and stuff a bullet in it??? Hmmmmm

Keep an eye out here boys! There are some things arriving here today (I think), that is going to open our eyes a bit more once I get them tested.

Michael

Good Morning Doc M.
Dont you have a 470 Capstick around there that has a bad barrel?
I seem to remember (memory???WTF is that??) you having one that didnt even mark the bullets with the rifling.
That might do for the test, but your going to have to get really close to the target so as the bullet has no time to keyhole.
The solids you have for the 475 B&M SS would be about the right length I think, maybe, hell I dont know.

Cheers, John

Michael:

I watched TERRA NOVA last night. Those guys need some BBW# 13s!

Looking forward to these mystery tests...
Carnivoire bullets?
Switcheroos?
Anyhow someone there in the carolinas has to reload the 12 gauge. That's hillbilyville.
Need the sabots though.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

I watched TERRA NOVA last night. Those guys need some BBW# 13s!

Dave

Terra Nova???

I don't get out much you know, sometimes I can't find the key??

Terran Nova? Don't know that.

But By God if they need some bullets I have some! North Forks or #13s, either one will do!

HEH

M
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Looking forward to these mystery tests...
Carnivoire bullets?
Switcheroos?
Anyhow someone there in the carolinas has to reload the 12 gauge. That's hillbilyville.
Need the sabots though.

Boomy

Crap, I will just cut the end of the shotgun shell off, and stuff a .500 in there some how! Ain't nothing for this to sort out!

Mystery Tests? Hmmmm

Yes, I am working on some things now, but getting tired, and will finish in the morning. I think when you wake up over on the left side, then you will be interested in what I have posted for you in the morning.

Sam and I had a great day, while not as grueling as some days we have put in, we got some work done, did a good bit of shooting, and got some test work in for sure. I also got a 475 B&M up and running, and running it is! Not there yet, one more generation on the 450 BBW#13 solid I think. But, I am having to do it the "Old Fashion" way, measuring case expansion, and case inspection for pressure. When I get a 475 B&M hooked up on a PT, then can take it to the limits! But for now, have to settle in and bear down! So far 2135 fps, and have a generation or two to go up, so it will go over 2200 without issue. But I can't see why, it tests pretty damn good at 2135, more than enough for sure! HEH... Hint!

Other things tested? Yes! For sure! LOL

Until tomorrow Boys!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
Good Morning Doc M.
Dont you have a 470 Capstick around there that has a bad barrel?
I seem to remember (memory???WTF is that??) you having one that didnt even mark the bullets with the rifling.
That might do for the test, but your going to have to get really close to the target so as the bullet has no time to keyhole.
The solids you have for the 475 B&M SS would be about the right length I think, maybe, hell I dont know.

Cheers, John

John

Sorry, almost missed you, behind today! Yes, I have TWO 477 Capsticks--They are not 470 or .474, they are a new caliber, .477, I just did not realize it. HEH HEH HEH...... No, strange enough, they have never key holed with anything, even at 50 yds, shoot one hole groups too! I swear it on a stack of bibles! How? Don't ask, I don't know! Just know that it is so! Seems all factory 470 bullets are not actual .474 either, most come in at .472-.473, Swift comes in at .474. If it comes in at .474 I get a "Touch" of engraving, but not near enough. We know a 65% meplat with zero engraving does it's damn level best to stabilize in the guns. Anything below that does not, I suspect a 70% meplat would even do better. I am talking of course, Terminal Stability. At 67% meplat I bet the BBW#13 would stabilize and the North Fork 425s I have are 68% I suspect they would too, especially with a little extra velocity, I will test them at some point, but got to get priorities out of the way first. Remind me down the road somewhere to do this.

M

http://www.thedealershowroom.c.../1275214/5941091.htm
A sabot like this should help it fly true.

Boomy, when I was playing with the "ShotShell" loads a couple of years ago I bought some cups, sabots and all sorts of things trying to get that to work without leading the hell out of the barrels, so I think somewhere I have some things that would work for a sabot.

M

Well as promised I have some test work to post for you. I will start out with the basic things. Sam needed to do some test work with 30 caliber for 450NE, so I am sure he is watching. Sam used a 300 Winchester, which came in handy for some other work we did, for these tests. Testing a 190 gr Berger Hunting Bullet, and a 180 gr Swift Scirroco (spelling?), and too lazy to look it up!

Sam had two loads for the Berger bullet, one full speed and one to simulate 500 yards I think. He fired 4 bullets into the mix, and this is what we found of the 4 and results of both.



Now of course, I would not have these things, but, I don't shoot deer either. Sam says he would shoot deer with them, and on a broadside lung shot, yes they would be devastating no doubt. Pieces seemed to give enough penetration to tear lungs all to hell. But they went all to hell in the process!


The Swift, I expected better things than what you see above, and was not disappointed. This is more to my personal liking for a "Conventional" bullet! But I don't care much one way or the other, far as I am concerned a 30 caliber is not suitable for anything bigger than rats and such anyway! Got no use for one!

Now this is WAY more to my admiration! It seems we finally have the 475 B&M up and running! This particular load is not topped out yet, but it was to the point we were yesterday, and we had test medium, so put these in the box to see what happens. When I sort the loads out, I expect this bullet to run over 2200 fps in the 18 inch tubes of the 475 B&M. This was 3rd generation loads. Moving slowly without a pressure trace right now on this, so it may take me 5-6 generations to work up. But, truth be told, you really don't need more than what you see below!




I am very excited about the 475 B&M, and over the next couple of weeks or so, I will be putting all the new .474s to the test, and I am looking forward to it. One little pet bullet I think I am going to like a lot is the "Conventional" North Fork Premium 425 gr. You see, I still have a heart for some few Conventional bullets! This is for sure one of them. You can teach an old dog new tricks, but from time to time the old dog returns to the old ways too! LOL....... Anyway, I love bullets!

One of my favorite quotes from someone I know;

quote:

If one looks one can find a niche for a bullet depending on it's working velocity and how it performs. While it may fail in one area, it may very well excel in another, it's up to us to choose properly! If we choose poorly, then it might not be the bullets fault, it could be our fault!

I am not sure if this is the "Best" or the "Wildest" that I saved for the last of yesterdays test work?

Let me introduce you to The CEB BBW#13 "Switcheroo"! For lack of a better term for right now. This is something our very own Boomy must take credit for, another one of his WILD ASS ideas, that happens to be pretty spiffy! Now for the life of me I can't figure why Dan did these in a useless rat caliber like .308, but this is what I got, so I had to work with it. It is a 130 gr BBW#13 Solid on one end, and a NonCon HP on the other.




Now guys, I have mentioned this to you about the "Switcheroo" before, but I have to go over this again with you. Now I am not considered a "Cheap Bastard" or even frugal. However, one does have to take into account the Economic impact of any service, or product. This has to be a top consideration. Now I am not in this bullet business, so that has no bearing, but I know Shooters and Gun folks very well, and you know, I hate to say this, but you bastards are CHEAP! I know this from years of experience with you! Ever sit at a gun show behind the table? If so, you know what I mean!

Now, in thinking this "Switcheroo" through, it is an amazing concept, a BBW#13 Solid on one side, A NonCon HP on the other, you just turn it around, and load it for what you need at the time. One bullet, does all. As we all know, the NonCon HP version costs a few more dollars per box than the solid, it takes a little more work to get a NonCon HP. Naturally. So to use the Switcheroo as a solid just did not make good sense to me, economically. Why shoot a NonCon cost bullet as a cheaper Solid? Well I did come up with a couple of things to the favor of good economics. One, less foot print on you bullet shelves, you would no longer need multiple boxes of Solids and NonCons, you could get by with one box that does it all. In some cases, that could be very important. Another is shipping things out of country, again, would not have to do Solids and NonCons and would save half the shipping and aggravation, and that could very well make up for the extra cost. So that is a big positive and might just pay for itself.

But what about normal guys, it just don't pan out I think. So I put some more thought into this and I really did come up with the most excellent solutions to this problem of economics that gives you "DOUBLE BANG FOR THE SAME DOLLAR!"

YES--You heard me correctly! Now you can have DOUBLE BANG for the same dollar! Here is how you do it!

First load the bullet as a SOLID. Shoot it, RECOVER IT, and turn it around then shoot it as a NonCon Hollow Point the second time around!

Now I do admit there are some flaws to be sorted out, such as proper recovery after the first shot, but I leave that to each individual to sort out! In other words, I figured it out for you, but you have to do something, after all it's you that is cheap to begin with!

Obviously I would not leave you totally out in the cold on this concept, so Sam and I put it to the test to see how it would work!



I wanted a good test for this, so I picked a 308 rat rifle I had not had in my hands in 6 years, like I said not much call for that sort of thing here. The scope had 6 years of dust on the lens, you could not even see out of it, so Sam had to give that a cleaning. We also was able to use Sam's 300 Winchester for the second round of tests with the bullet.

We loaded of course solid end first and tested both rifles with the solids!



Then turned right around to test the "Double Bang For the Buck" theory!



And here we go!









Same 4 bullets in each, 308 and 300.

A note about the solid end. Penetration was extreme for a 130 gr rat caliber. In each cartridge, 40-42 inches dead straight, then some started turning a bit at the end of penetration, a couple of them found sideways at the end, some found dead straight ahead.

On the NonCon HP end a phenomena occurred that does not happen with the straight NonCon HP and that was more velocity gave less overall penetration? Regardless of that it was more than enough for any rat type rifle, and more than any conventional rat bullet can come to. Below I thought it was of note to show you the massive trauma inflicted upon the 2 inch witness cards. A tremendous amount of trauma inflicted by the 300 Winchester load.






So there you go boys! You see the results, the tests were successful on every count, the solid worked great as a solid, the NonCon worked great as a NonCon, I gave you an economical feasible solution for doubling your bang for the dollar, I can no longer see any downsides to this bullet! And for those of you that want a long range rat caliber bullet, as you notice the NonCon end is shorter than the Solid end, there is a reason for that, Sam and I finally figured Dan is pretty sharp on this, the NonCon end is shorter so you can add a high BC tip to it, fit in the magazine and rock and roll! The Solid portion would also serve as a Boat Tail, even increasing that BC. Of course, used as a solid, you have the famous "Hollow Base" design we discovered as well! Good lord, what a bullet!

HEH HEH HEH.....

Michael

Maybe we should name this bullet the Double Shot.

A star is born
Well the 308 is a good caliber for the average guy and boat tails. For a light bullet it did damn well!!! I see the tipped boat tail being useful for 416 and under. The flat point being a larger and more dangerous game bullet will be great and maybe being lighter may not overpenetrate so much on non elephant game. What does Dan at CEB think of all this? Would be cool to see tests in a 375 and 416 as well if possible. Would be interesting to see the comparison tests against the commercially successful and effective TSX. That seemed awesome wound channel for the 300 Win. Would be interesting to document the tipped version flight path sighted at 2" high at 100 yards in a 300 Win.

A "tip" of the Rocky Mtn Stetson to you Michael for work in the development, and to you, Boom Stick, for the idea. I don't know if I would shoot the bullets twice (media shot into), but it sure would be fun. Surprised me that when I saw the bullet with the shorter non-con nose, I immediately thought there might be room for the tip!

Heh maybe we should post the results in the medium bore board. If Bell were alive to hunt elephant with his 7mm I'd wager he would want a bullet like this.

Thanks Max! Pretty much however all I did was the test work, Dan was pretty much on his own on this one, and did it right for sure. Of course we have the specs down on the BBW#13 pretty tight, and it seems to work across the board in calibers so it's not too hard to do anymore. Tips are pretty well sorted out as well.

Boomy, had a great idea, excellent concept and it works, job well done Boomy! But as for taking down to mediums, I will let you do that, they don't know me downstairs.

Look at the damage from a bullet with a less than .2 SD .196 to be exact.

Page 189!

Nice.
Looking forward to seeing the reversible bullet add a tip. Three-way bullet.
Triad Tip?

The 375 and 416 seem to be the goldilox calibers for most that are the double duty calibers for PG and DG so I can see the benefit of a switch bullet in these calibers. A 275 grain 375 and 350 grain 416 seem about right.

The 130 .308s are such a success that seems Dan did not make enough of them, after all they were only EXP--Experimental. I have one more box, all that's left, coming to me (X50). Along with several various BC-Tips. A full production run of tips have not been made yet, but tips for the .308 are on the way. Several will be going out by next week to test them on some deer. Sam has 15 and he is going to bust some deer with those. Also have 55 gr BBW#13 223 NonCons in the field now too, any reports I get, you will see them here.

I tell you, I have some very exciting work with the terminals coming up, hopefully I can get started on some of it Saturday, but this is going to be very intensive and slow work. Some of the most important work I have done in some time, so I am not rushing it. I can't wait!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The 375 and 416 seem to be the goldilox calibers for most that are the double duty calibers for PG and DG so I can see the benefit of a switch bullet in these calibers. A 275 grain 375 and 350 grain 416 seem about right.

I'll 'Amen' the 350 grain load in .416. However, if these tipped-'non-cons' work as predicted, then a 325 grain might be in store. I'm not against hunting with a 2900 fps load.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The 375 and 416 seem to be the goldilox calibers for most that are the double duty calibers for PG and DG so I can see the benefit of a switch bullet in these calibers. A 275 grain 375 and 350 grain 416 seem about right.

I'll 'Amen' the 350 grain load in .416. However, if these tipped-'non-cons' work as predicted, then a 325 grain might be in store. I'm not against hunting with a 2900 fps load.

Tanz

You know damned well a little light 325 BBW#13 in 416 is too light for anything but rats and such! Man, where is your mind?



HEH.... I think Tanz has stepped out of the box and is in the light! I am testing a new BBW#13 in 416 coming to a post near you soon!

M

OK boys, I have a small request, get the brain sprockets moving around, clockwise is good, but possible counter clock might be better, we will see.

Need a NAME for the Switcheroo! Switcheroo just won't do, while it most certainly conveys how the bullet can be used, it just don't sound exactly proper!

450NE named the BBW#13 "Carnivore", absolutely perfect. I can't recall much but Sam and I did the BBW#13 combined or not, I don't know, but none the less we have now a

BBW#13--???????????

I know this crowd is sharp and can come up with something, so let's hear it!

Michael

BBW #13--OMNIVORE. It eats it all from either end!

Boomstick should name it, it was his idea.

CEB #13 Dualie

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Boomstick should name it, it was his idea.

CEB #13 "BoomBox"

"Switch point" is the most accurate.
"Multi purpose" is good too
It is a "System bullet" though with the tips.
"Alpha and Omega" sounds good the first and the last bullet you will ever need

I'm just a volunteer freelance amature bullet designer for BBW
I'll put my thinking cap on and work on a name
Suggestions welcome!

Suggestion.. !

CEB #13- MANTICORE

or

BBW #13- MANTICORE

The manticore (Early Middle Persian Martyaxwar; Βάρἰκος Baricos in Greek) is a legendary creature similar to the Egyptian sphinx. It has the body of a red lion, a human head with three rows of sharp teeth (like a shark), and a trumpet-like voice. Other aspects of the creature vary from story to story. It may be horned, winged, or both. The tail is that of either a dragon or a scorpion, and it may shoot poisonous spines to either paralyze or kill its victims. It devours its prey whole. It leaves no clothes, bones, or possessions of the prey behind. During the early centuries, it was often believed that when a person would go missing, it was evidence that it was caused by a manticore and that manticore were real. The creature's feet may be those of a dragon, but are most often described as the paws of a lion. Its size ranges from the size of a lion to the size of a horse. It is also mistaken as a bearded man when seen from a distance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manticore

PAPI