Michael,

I plan on getting some of those Barnes banded solids for both my 500 and 577 for my next visit with you. I'LL try to get the loads up to velocity before I come down. My season is going strong and Im working 7 days a week. I should have some free time around the 15th of July maybe. I look forward to seeing your testing of the goofy bullets.

Sam

Jim

Yes, I like the bullet too. I don't care much for the top of the bands where it just sorta tapers down. I suppose I am more used to that sharp defined step down, to me just looks better. Has nothing to do with function or performance. Very good meplat at 67%, I have zero doubts about terminal performance of this bullet. Corbin and I are looking at reduced pressures and possible gains in velocity?

Maybe one day the DR boys will get a .500! It would be a piece of cake to do, just take a 500 Nitro and squeeze it a tad--500 MDM OR B&M Nitro heh heh! I have to tell you I have always my whole shooting life had this thing about a 500 Nitro! To me that was just "The Cartridge"! My goals for the 500 MDM were to duplicate that performance on a Winchester M70, which it does easy. But today with our modern solids it is no longer necessary to have such a heavy bullet to get performance. These 510-515 gr solids penetrate just as well as a 550 with the same profile. Oh there might be a couple inches difference, but not enough to really make a big difference. With these things in mind one can actually get 500 Nitro "terminals" or better, in the 50 B&M cartridge! Depends on the bullet of course!

It's all about the bullet, everything else is just designed to get it there!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

I plan on getting some of those Barnes banded solids for both my 500 and 577 for my next visit with you. I'LL try to get the loads up to velocity before I come down. My season is going strong and Im working 7 days a week. I should have some free time around the 15th of July maybe. I look forward to seeing your testing of the goofy bullets.

Sam

Sam

Excellent! Well Buffalo, ask and thou shall receive! We don't play, we take this serious! Where else can you get this sort of service and the price is right!!!! Eh?

Sam, just keep digging my friend! Our season is full tilt too right now. I am going to see what I can get done this week with lot's of different test work, including some terminals. I also have some of your 375s loaded up to play with sometime this week. You have the damn gun too tight however, can't get enough case expansion in that tight chamber of yours! HEH! I have only made one run with some 270s so far a couple of weeks ago, or maybe 3-4 weeks ago, I can't remember!

Hey and like I said earlier about your bullets, don't forget how goofy the Woodleigh upside down beer cans look, but don't forget how good they perform either!

Michael

quote:

It's all about the bullet, everything else is just designed to get it there!

The bullet seems to be one of the least looked at parts but one of the most important parts of the equation!

Quote "And yes Boomy has been after me doing a crazy one on a WSM. Maybe not so crazy. Maybe look at a RUM based Winchester M70???? Maybe a two shooter? Maybe I try to find myself a couple of pieces of 500 Jeff somewhere to look at? Hmmm?" End quote.

There should be enough neck tension area there with just a simple neck up of formed brass for the shoulder cut off version.

750 @ 2,100 @ under 60K PSI with 18" barrels would be a good goal!

Hellova handy pachederm popper!

6.5 lb. WSM syntheic stock gun?

Boomy

I will take a look this week at this. Maybe based on the RUM Winchester. Should be able to do two down I would think? I have collected up now 4 RUM based guns to work with. Might be a hoot. Might actually work proper too?

M

Well if you are extractor headspacing and all dimensions the same except neck length you could test the WSM size on as well as the full 2.75" length too. the Woodleigh 577 bullets are stubby tip to canalure so could be done in an 06 length action. Ed has done a similar one on the Gibs case.

You are a good mad scientist Michael
Just call me Igor

Michael,

I'm used to doing tight tolerance work for target guns. I'll just have to wallo out that chamber for you so you can get the cases to bulge out. If you build one right you can blow a head and still open it with one finger.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Well Buffalo, ask and thou shall receive! We don't play, we take this serious! Where else can you get this sort of service and the price is right!!!! Eh?
Michael

Michael and Sam-
That sounds excellent, just excellent
Do you think you can make the 577 Barnes Banded 750 grainers leave the muzzle at around 2100 fps Sam?
I remember your 675 grs solid in your 577 going relatively deep (was it 54 inches?) at a VERY low velocity (1750 fps or so impact vel?) So 2100 with the 750 grs Banded Solid should do wonders - I think...

Looking much forward...



Ulrik

Ulrik,

Thats my plan to get those solids up to full speed. I learned a lot about loading solids when Michael and I tested my doubles.

Sam

If we reeeeeeaaallllyyyyy want to take normal size actions to extremes if the 577 on the 500 Jeffery case was not large enough.

OK before the stones start flying I acknowledge the following.

1 Betram brass has had quality issues in the past
2 This brass is expensive
3 This is not an in the box cart design

The king of the hill for the M98 was the 585 Nyati with much modification but if we are extractor headspacing then it would seem that a 600 version is possible from Nyati brass. Midway sells unformed brass 20 for $120 or formed Nyati brass can be necked up. This could be an option to get .620" 600 NE bullets to 600 NE velocities. Would seem easier on a CZ 505 Gibs Rebarrel or rebore since they share the same rim size but if you are going that big you might as well just do the well proven 600 OK. This would be similar to the 50 B&M but super size. At 2.25" on a WSM action it would be a thumper. For an 06 length action it would be a stopper at the full 2.8" length it would be a stomper.

500 is wonderful. 577 and 600 options? Let us discuss. The 500 is wonderful for many reasons like price and ease of conversion getting above 500 gets pretty costly but hey... who would not want to have 577 and 600 NE power from say a M98, M70, Ruger MKII or WSM?

More 9.3s if you please

Michael,

I got banded bullets ordered for both 500 and 577 so we can give them a full test. I know you miss that 500 double. Midway only had one box of each but that should be enough to get a good test. I also ordered some 535 grain 500's in addition to the 570 grain.

Maybe in a few weeks I can come down for a day of shootin.

Sam

Michael, I have some 535 grain .510 banded solids if you need a few for a test.

It occurs to me that you really need a .500 Jeffery!

Sam

Yes, one box is plenty to test with. When you come, load 4 for test work. Probably only 3 each, but have a 4th in case, and for spotting the first round if needed. I had 570 Banded. Actually I like both pretty good, 577 is very impressive. But my heart still belongs to the 500 Nitro---Now the 500 MDM! HEH.

Dave

Thanks for the 535s, but if Sam has some ordered from Midway, we should be good to go.

I also have the sample 9.3s you sent. I intend to load today. I did my prelim work with the .500 caliber sample bullets from Corbin, just came off the range just now, and all went very well. Great bullets, super accurate, maybe a slight increase in velocity of 20-30 fps in the 500 MDM, but not a lot with the multiple groove bullet. Also shooting Sams 375 a bit today, had a head separation so I am going to take a big hammer, 8 lb or so, and some sort of heavy Steel rod and knock it out!!!!

Anyway Dave, leads me to this, I have to go to the dentist in the morning, I thought I might as well pick up some newspaper while in the area, a truck load. I have nearly two boxes ready to shoot, so while priority is on the several various .500 caliber solids, samples from Sam and samples from Corbin, I was thinking I can work in those two 9.3s for us too. Probably starting on Wednesday and running into Thursday as many as I have to do.

I am sorry to tell you this, but I know what the Barnes is going to do already! Not sure about the 286 Woodleigh, it should perform near the same as the 320, looks to be the same nose profile.

Michael

Michael:

If you want, I can ship my .500 Jeffery down to you to shoot those 535 grain banded solids. If you load them up to 2400 fps and shoot them from the bench, you can skip the trip to the dentist

I am still holding out hope for those 250 grain 9.3 banded solids. I am going to test them up here as well along with some of the 400 grain Barnes Buster bullets. I chronographed the 400 grain Barnes Busters this weekend and even in the short 18.5 inch barrel of my Marlin 45/70 I was getting 1900 fps with H4198. I was pretty happy with that.

Michael,

Head separation! You mad scientist stop trying to blow up my gun! Just because I said if built right you could open the bolt easy you had to go and try to see how hot you could run it huh. Remember not to size that brass with the die all the way down to shell holder also.

Sam

Michael,

Head separation! Stop trying to blow my gun up! Just because I said you could open a bolt easy you had to go and hot rod it huh. You mad scientist! Remember not to run the sizer die all the way down on the shell holder it those Dillon presses.

Sam

Sam

Calm down, Calm down! It's ok, I have it fixed now. At first I could not find the 8 lb hammer, and tried a smaller 2.5 lb ball hammer. Well, that did not work with the big screw driver I was beating into the chamber, so I went on a search for the big hammer and found it all rusted up in the woods. No worries, after I beat the rust off the big hammer with the barrel of your rifle, I was able to jam that oversized screw driver into the brass that was stuck in the chamber. Then I went on the other end and drove a oversized rod down the bore with the big hammer (had to put it in a big vise and get a good grip on the receiver) it knocked the screw driver and the brass right out!

Good as new, no worries!

Michael

Sam

I don't know what the issue was with that anyway, it was only a 270 gr Hornady at 2800 fps????

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Sam

Calm down, Calm down! It's ok, I have it fixed now. At first I could not find the 8 lb hammer, and tried a smaller 2.5 lb ball hammer. Well, that did not work with the big screw driver I was beating into the chamber, so I went on a search for the big hammer and found it all rusted up in the woods. No worries, after I beat the rust off the big hammer with the barrel of your rifle, I was able to jam that oversized screw driver into the brass that was stuck in the chamber. Then I went on the other end and drove a oversized rod down the bore with the big hammer (had to put it in a big vise and get a good grip on the receiver) it knocked the screw driver and the brass right out!

Good as new, no worries!

Michael

Michael,

Hey I'm calm I'll just take one of those 500 B&M's to replace it. Camo one!
You must be one of those kitchen table gunsmiths! Leave that kind of work to the professionals. 270 at 2800 fps not bad for a short barrel.
Just to get back at you I just finished a 458 B&M Modified. Have dies already made to. Do you need me to make you a set of 458SS dies?

Sam

Sam

Well I can tell you now that Hornady is taking their sweet time on the die order, and the 458 SS in in that bunch.

Kitchen Table Gunsmith!!! Gees, I wish I could qualify so high!!!!!!!

OK, I lied about a few things, little white lies, harmless I am told! First 2800 fps and a 270 is just slightly exaggerated, I did get 2730 fps, but it was a little stiff opening up. Several other loads were at 2600-2650 and all happy! Ok, that's one little white lie, confessed and the truth is out.


OK, maybe I exaggerated the hammer routine a little too. Honestly, I could not find a hammer, so I got this little gadget thing I have had for a long time but never used before, looks like this;


Not sure what that thing is, but it did work great for this. Now I really must go see if I can find my hammers now, maybe a good pair of vise grips will help for the next time?



Michael

Michael,

No worries, it looks like you did a proper job. Remember we had one case that was short shouldered and got stretched so that might be this one you had the problem with. Now why would you have a broken shell extractor? You must be bad for separating cases huh. I don't even own one of those! I just use a brass brush to pull mine out.

Sam

Sam


Ok that was a little funny at your expense! HEH! Yep, I have several broken shell extractors, and this is the first time ever that I have used one. Was not even quite sure how to do it. Some years ago I had a separation with something, I don't remember exactly what it was. I got to thinking about that and what a mess that could be while on a hunt in the middle of no where. So I got a bunch of these, every available cartridge I could and put some away. Always carry some with me on a hunt or shoot, just in case. Never used one until today. Now my dumb ass has had a few separations with the 416 B&M, I set the shoulder too far back on a whole bunch of them one time. Still sorting that bunch out, but they just fell out of the chamber, never really stuck. I am in the process of separating a few 500 MDMs right now too. Again, waiting on Hornady dies for the NEW 500 MDM, and I am setting the shoulder back too far on some of them with the old dies. Trying to get the sizing right for many things. But it appears I must just be patient for the new dies to come.

Seems I do recall we had a short shoulder, I bet that was it too. None of the rest of them show any signs at all of separation. BIG FLATTENED primers, but no separation YET! HEH!

Now go back to work, you are getting behind!

Michael

Michael,

I'm impressed that you have those shell extractors and know how to use them. Not a bad idea to take on a trip either. Like we don't have enough stuff to keep up with when on a hunting trip.
THe 458 I just built has a 20 inch barrel and I think I'm going to wack off two more inches. Seems too long. Whats your thoughts on the 458 B&M with an 18 inch barrel?
OK you go back to shooting and I'LL go back to packing fruit.

Sam

Good Morning Sam

Yep, whack that puppy down to 18 inches. All the first 458 B&Ms had 20 inch barrels. At the time I felt like I needed that much barrel in that diameter to burn powder efficiently. Only sorta as a fluke I built one 458 B&M with 18 inches, the 50 was so good at 18, I had to try a 458 B&M. Extensive tests showed that I only lost 10-15 fps per inch at the very most, and in some loads not even that much. So 18 was the way to play with 458! Still had 450s over 2200 fps and 500s at 2130-2160 depending on the bullet. So that was plenty, and I have been very satisfied at 18 from then on. In fact I just sent a blue gun up to do myself another 458 B&M at 18 inches on that XX English stock I have from AI. Will have that armor coat matte finish put on it like that one 500 MDM I have for sale. It will look fantastic, although it is going to be a little heavy with that XX English stock, probably around 8 lbs total!

What stock you have on that one? Must bring it with of course when you get down here.

I have to be out this morning, dentist, then getting a truck load of paper to chew up. Then lunch with the wife, and shopping and so on, the day is killed!

I have all your prototype bullets loaded for testing in the 500 MDM. I hope to start tomorrow on those. Some wild things you sent me!

Oh, and your 375 B&M is just fine! I have not blown it up yet, and it still works! HEH!

Trying to get some data on that for John. He is the guy in PA with the other 375 B&M. He is taking his elk hunting this year and wants a 270 at or around 2600 fps. I have several loads in yours now that does that easy, but not much more before getting flat! I figure that really is about right for the cartridge, when comparing the same weights back to the 9.3. But John is still waiting on the official B&M dies from Hornady, as I am. I ordered 5 sets of 375 B&M, 9.3 B&M, New 500 MDM, 458 B&M SA, 458 B&M SS, 50 B&M SA, 458 B&M, and some more I think I have forgotten now! Soon I hope! I really want to get to playing with that 458 Super Short, that is neat!

Back to work with you!

Michael

Thanks Michael,

I'm going to wack it off to 18 inches. I think that will be a better handling gun after that.
I used a Black Shadow gun to build the 458 just to see if it would work. Seems to feed nicely and no issues with rounds popping out of mag. Got another one of those cheap Adams & Bennett barrels on it like the 375. A little heavy but better with a .458 hole in it. Just playing around to decide what I want to build for my go to gun. I wish my .500 barrels would come in so I can start on one of those.
Don't worry about blowing up that 375, push it to the max to see what it will do. I don't think you can hurt it too much. I built it for testing anyway.

Sam

Sam

Excellent, cut that barrel and don't worry about it. 18 inches is plenty in the 458 B&M. A good bit of the 458 test work done here has been done with the 458 B&M. Some with the 458 Lott when I needed a little extra velocity in the 500s. But honestly I am going to have to start looking for a different powder than my old RL 15 loads. They are not producing the velocity they did even just 7-8 years ago??? Change of powder lots I assume. What used to give me 2275-2300 fps steady is just giving me 2200 these days! Anway, that's another story!

Oh I ain't afraid to push things, and I have not blown up a gun now in nearly 3 yrs, so I am on a roll now! HEH!

Man, went to the news paper folks today. No more free paper! But that's ok, now I have a 100% steady supply anytime I want it for .10 per lb! Today I loaded up over 800 lbs of paper in the back of the Excursion! Have not got it unloaded yet, it's 95 degrees here and humidity to match! So I will wait until morning for that chore! When I get it stacked on the range I will take a photo of it so we know what 800 lbs of news paper print looks like!

I am working to get started testing tomorrow. I think I might be able to get going mid morning or so with some things, but I have a large agenda ahead, so I suspect it will take a little while to get to what I want to get done this week. Here are some things I want to take care of;

North Fork--here we go, I have some of the 325 and 350 CPS loaded up in 458 Lott, reduced loads in 458 B&M, and in 45/70 that I will run thru a Marlin lever gun. Not real sure how fast I have the loads in 458 Lott. I did not have much personal data on lighter bullets in 458 Lott, less than 400s anyway. So I relied on some borrowed data, and just filled the case slam full of H322 since I have about 25 lbs of that stuff around! Should be enough I reckon! The 458 B&M loads are reduced to probably around 2000 or so, and the 45/70 we will see how the CPS works with the slower twist and probably around 2000 fps or so on those too. We will see, soon as I can get them worked in.



Dave as promised I have the 9.3 B&M loaded and ready for testing the 286 Woodleigh and the 250 Barnes Banded. I have a pretty good idea what is going to happen, but will wait for official results before saying too much.



Also I have been promising Sam for weeks to get to all his prototype solids in .500 caliber. Remember, what goes on with .500 will hold true for other calibers as well as far as nose profiles and meplat %. So pay attention! These are radical and certainly nothing like them I have seen. Might not work, I suspect many won't, but you never know???






But my first priority is with these bullets Corbin had designed by our new bullet maker. I have to get this tested first as decisions are getting ready to be made about volume and how many! I did test some yesterday, they shoot great, velocity is a tad better, maybe 20-30 fps in the 500 MDM. 67% meplat (as I recall-measured yesterday, already forgot exactly) They look good and shoot good. But I have to get them tested before we can make decisions.




So this is what is on the agenda, hopefully starting tomorrow. Finishing.... well whenever I finish I suppose.

I have some range work to do before starting however, like getting that paper stored away first, getting a floor full of chewed up paper bagged and tagged, and such as that! Lot's of work to this, but well worth it in the long run!

Michael

Michael,

Don't forget those ugly bullets that I asked you to clean up before showing them off.

Sam

The 438's and 385 grain dual flat point solids have my curiosity. I don't think they will penetrate well but probably have a great wound channel.

Sam

Nope I have those ugly bullets ready to go, just did not photograph them is all.

Boomy

Be looking tomorrow for shipments! Don't forget!

Honestly all those "Wild Sam" bullets have my curiosity! We may get some surprises, I would not doubt. On most of them I only have one sample of each. But at least we might be able to tell a little something about a direction to follow up with. Especially if a particular design worked well. Then one can set out to modify or produce a few more of that profile.

Good stuff!

Michael

Michael…Couple of comments.

The 9.3s:
Just from the photographs it is apparent that the 286gr Woodleigh FMJ has a greater diameter meplat than the 286gr Barnes BND SLD.

Corbin’s new bullet maker’ prototype bullets:
Recently did quite a bit of checking for .500 caliber barrels and if spec’ing a .490” bore with .500” groove diameters barrel I found bore/groove specification of + .0005” for bore or groove in addition to a per barrel manufacturing tolerance of +/-.0005” for bore or groove dimensions. So to optimize the new bullet design I would recommend the following:
Driving band diameter: .500”
Shank diameter: .488”
Smaller-width raised driving bands: Carry all the way to the bullet base.
(Reference the pictured NF CPS bullets)

This design should maximize the bullet velocity by minimizing the bullet within barrel drag; may also reduce pressure.

Sam’s prototype bullets:
Carry the small width driving bands further up the bullet shank towards the nose; that’ll give the bullets greater seating depth potentials for use with different case lengths and cartridge overall lengths. Also, I like the defined narrower bands shown in this photograph.


Anyway my 2₵.

We'll all get laugh at how these goofy bullets perform. You don't know until you try. I know I got a little carried away but was having fun anyway.

Sam

you guys are amazing
Looking forward to see the results..
I know Michael gets a lot of exercise moving paper around...I guess its more than we realize

Im also looking muuuuch forward to hear about results from testing Sams 577 with the 750grs Barnes Banded solids - hopefully at 2100fps..

Good work Michael. This thread is still very much alive.... Impressive. I think it will continue, always some bullets to test, otherwise you just invent some new bullet designs to test - just like Sams goofy bullets you will be testing soon...


By the way Michael - how was your visit at the dentist? Hopefully you didnt have another tooth pulled out which will keep u away from shooting the comming days...

Michael:

I'm betting those 250 grain 9.3 Banded Solids are going to surprise you

I managed to get a little bit of work done today. At 5:45 AM I was on the range, unloading 800 lbs of news print, stacking and packing! Also had some cleanup to do too so I spent a couple of hours this morning getting ready to shoot later. I have to tell you, it is hot here, 100 degrees today, and the humidity felt the same. By the time I finished I looked like someone dipped me in the pool. The range was only 82 degrees today, so not so bad until started to dig for bullets and moving wet print around. Then I had to constantly wipe my face and head, I could not see to dig with the sweat in my eye! Whew!

Anyway, I am breaking this down into three sections, first Sam's bottle nose solids, then the near wadcutter solids, and finally the Corbin prototypes. All I managed today was .500 caliber bullets.

First up, Sam's bottle nose prototypes.








Unfortunately I don't think the bottle nose profile is doing so good. Even a couple that had a +50% meplat for caliber did not do so well. All went off course. I suspected the smaller meplats to do this, however I thought that maybe the 1:12 twist rates and higher velocity of the 500 MDM might get the larger 50% meplat to drive a little deeper. But it is what it is.

Sam, back to the drawing board with these! An excellent effort however, and until tried one never really knows for sure! Larger meplat, 60%-70% of caliber maybe!

Michael

I am calling these Sam's Wadcutters!







Really all of these are nearly full wadcutters as you can see, 100% meplat in all reality. All penetrated 100% dead straight. I more or less figured on that. I believe penetration is limited a good bit by the design. As you know I believe starting at 75% or so meplat for caliber the meplat starts to limit penetration. Something Sam and I are going to work on later to prove beyond belief and theory with different size meplats, including very large ones in direct comparison with others.

Feeding is an issue in the bolt guns with these, of course I dont think anyone would expect anything else, even the Winchesters didn't always like to feed them! Not an issue in a double or single.

I agree with Capoward, take the multi groove further up on the bullet to allow deeper seating if needed.

Good Job Sam, these do penetrate dead straight. Not bad either. Proves one thing, large meplat size can "Limit Penetration" and keep them straight, if one so desired.


Michael

Now the Corbin Prototypes.







OK today side by side in the exact same test mix, the multi groove penetrated a good bit deeper than the standard 2 groove design. Once again in the 500 MDM giving 30 fps faster with the exact same load. This is not a top load by the way. This is 85/H322 top end is 89/H322 for well over 2300 fps with the standard grooved bullet.

Both excellent performance, the multi groove bullet being very impressive.

Jim, both you and North Fork are right once again. I think Corbin and I are going to get a price on the multi groove, and give this guy some business. I would also like to look into some lighter brass versions of this same nose profile with the multi grooves!


Excellent, just Excellent!

Michael