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Happy Father's Day everyone... Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Someone please help me out here... I've got the want for a 458 B&M and and perfect donor action. If I recall correctly, SSK likes to use Shilen barrels. What contour are they using on a 458 B&M? I did some searching, but found nothing. Nothing against Shilen, but I prefer cut rifled barrels from Brux. I know it's off topic, but it seemed like the best place to ask, apologies... Sent from my iPhone | |||
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I would contact Brian a SSK Industries he will be supervising your build. http://sskindustries.com/ There is also a topic here in Big Bores, it's back one page.... 416-458-50 SS-50 B&M Series Cartridges/Rifles....a wealth of information on the B&M cartridges I have a 458 B&M it's a very versatile caliber and gun with a 18" barrel....it could possibly be the only gun you would need to hunt anything that walks this earth....but what fun would that be only having one rifle | |||
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Michael provided this information to me back in 2010:
Hope this helps. I went with a Pac-Nor #5 Sporter for my .423/338 Lapua and a #6 Sporter for my .500/338 Lapua; both at 21 ½" length Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, That is a huge help, thank you... Sent from my iPhone | |||
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My wife and I were on a walk near a friend's house in North Carolina. And what do we have here? Seemed worth a picture.   . . . (These pictures are just for fun and unrelated to B&M rifles.) +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Good one Tanz. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Good Morning Guys...... At least here, in Pretoria its morning........ Yes, our little Zimbabwe mission is now completed with 100% success, and then some....... I have a story for you about 4 bullets. .474 caliber 320 CEB Raptor, 350 #13 Solid, .500 caliber 410 Raptor and 450 #13 Solid............ As it ended up, this became my son's Safari with Mark David doing the bulk of the hunting and shooting. I actually only fired 4 rounds on this safari, and two of those were sighters to check the rifle! I personally never recall shooting so little myself. One factor involved was the performance of Mark David himself, he never gave me an opportunity to shoot or do any backup for him, his shooting was superb to say the least, in fact it was 100% perfect.............. Long before this hunt I asked Mark David his choice for rifle, it took about 1/2 a millisecond for him to respond, his own 475 B&M Super Short that he used so successfully in 2012 in Australia. At that time the main objective was Cape Buffalo, and the rifle, and bullets of choice had already proven themselves with the Australian buffalo. With such success already tested, I had no objections at all to his choice. However, before we came across the right buffalo for Mark David, an opportunity came up on the first day with a pod of hippos. They were standing in about 2-3 feet of water just milling about when Andrew and Mark David took up position about 35-40 yards I suppose. Picking out the bull it was a waiting game to get the right shot. Mark had a 350 gr #13 Solid loaded to 2200 fps in the little rifle. The bull presented a frontal brain as he turned towards Mark and the shot was taken, and the waiting was over. The bullet entered the front of the brain and then exited the neck on the right side, about 2-2.5 feet of penetration, end of story............. We hunted a couple of days before getting on a real B&M Buffalo for Mark. The bull was in some fairly thick brush, Andrew and Mark David ended up doing some "leopard crawling" to get into position. So as to make it much easier, myself, tracker, and game scout lagged behind. Andrew was able to get Mark into a shooting position at around 25 yards. Mark David excited a dead perfect heart shot with a 320 Raptor at 2300 fps, this is the matching Raptor to the 350 Solid. The bull standing on top of a small ridge disappeared over the other side. As they topped the little ridge the buffalo was laying on his side stone cold, no more than 15 yards from taking the initial hit with the 320 Raptor. An insurance shot was taking up the brisket with the 350 #13 Solid, which exited the top of the back. The 320 Raptor had not exited, which was expected. Back at the skinning shed we found the remaining bullet had been stopped on the far shoulder in the hide. It had taken the top of the heart, done a tremendous amount of damage along the way. One thing that was noticed was a huge lump the size of a mans fist where the bullet was recovered on the far right shoulder. There was a lot of damage in this area from the bullet, and something I had not seen or noticed before in such instances, however I must say that I also have not recovered many of these bullets in exactly the same circumstances. Most exit. We knew from prior experience in Australia with the big bulls that the .474 320 Raptor would not exit, so there was no surprises here when found on the hide far side. The next opportunity that presented itself was mine with a buffalo cow and the 500 B&M. Some time ago even before the 500 B&M, I had a matching set of .500s done primarily for the 50 B&M. A 450 #13 Solid and matching 410 Raptor HP. I had extended the nose projection of both these bullets to .650 from the top band. The 500 B&M is a 2.5 inch RUM case with the exact same neck dimensions as the 500 MDM at 2.8 inches, and the 500 B&M uses the same long RUM Winchester action. This allows me to use the longer nose projection Raptors, with Talon Tips installed, and work through the magazine. An advantage no doubt, but still undetermined if actually worth the effort for that purpose alone, as one can always load the first round with talon tip installed into the chamber with any rifle, and I always follow with solids anyway, and would do this in 500 MDM as well in this situation. At any rate, I had the 410 Raptor with Talon Tip running 2500 fps in its 18 inch barrel, and the 450 #13 Solids at 2350 fps, both matching POI at 50 yards. My intention on this trip was to be using the 450 North Fork Solids, but I could not manage to get POI to match as close as I really wanted, so I ended up with the #13 Solid in the end. The buffalo was right around 45-50 yards best guess and presented a point of the shoulder shot on the left side. The 410 Raptor hit exactly where it was supposed to. It was very clear that it hit extremely hard and with extreme prejudice. The animal was not capable of running at all, the very best it could do was turn around 180 degrees and present the right shoulder to me. Which at that moment I turned one of the 450 #13 Solids loose. Now what I COULD NOT SEE (AGAIN) was a tree in direct line with that right shoulder was an 8 inch tree!!!!!! In fact, I never saw the tree until going down to the downed buffalo. In the end, the 450 #13 Solid plowed through the tree, hit the buffs right shoulder dead straight perfect, and passed completely through both shoulders and I suppose may still be going round in Zim somewhere............ Let me repeat, 450 $#13 Solid .500 caliber 2350 fps, 8 inch diameter tree, and completely through both buffalo shoulders dead straight and gone........... In the process of all this, the bullet hit that tree so damned hard it knocked the bark completely off of it for a span of over 5 inches wide across the entire diameter! I should have looked for the bark on the ground, I never thought of that until just this second, but I don't recall seeing any laying around at all, what happened to it I do not know? I was rather amazed at how hard this bullet hit........ At the point of the shoulder angle, the 410 Raptor at 2500 fps had stopped mid stomach on the far side of the buffalo, we could see and feel it under the hide. A total of 40 inches of total penetration. We recovered the bullet back at the skinning shed, and this bullet inflicted incredible trauma to flesh and bone along the way, it is no wonder the animal could not do more than turn around in its tracks....... Absolutely devastating to say the least. There is no doubt in my mind this is a good and proper buffalo bullet in any of the .500s from 50 B&M up.......... In the 50 B&M in particular we can run this bullet at 2400 fps in its 18 inch barrel at 60000 PSI, making it desirable for work on buffalo. From the beginning of the hunt, Corris made us aware of a situation that had been brewing in the village over the last week or so. Some elephant issues. While I did not press the matter too hard, I reminded Corris on a fairly regular basis that we must always think of "The Children" and their best interests......... Hmmmm............ We would not want any ugly incidents to occur............ The matter was settled one night when one of the naughty buggers started tearing the grass out of some of the homes of the villagers, and some ruckus was being made about it. That day we found out from the game scouts it was actually a group of elephants causing the problems. Corris and Andrew decided to take out one of the elephants to hopefully bring an end to this naughty activity, and I decided to hand this opportunity over to my master class shooter, Mark David. We decided to siesta for the afternoon and return to the village around 5 pm. During this time frame Corris, Andrew, and myself gave instruction to various shot placement that might occur. It was time well spent, as Mark David had never really considered elephant. For me, I had to decide whether the 475 B&M Super Short and its 350 gr #13 Solid was up to the task? I fell back on the test work that had been done with it, and the experience we had with it primarily on buffalo. This bullet had driven to 50 inches in the test work, dead straight. It had exited every buffalo ever shot, regardless of angle, but I did not recall any dead rear end shots ever being taken. In the end, I decided it was enough and would do the job and be effective, but as always with something like this I had concerns of course, I think any prudent individual might. After all we are talking about something that has never been done or heard of being done before. We are talking about a bullet that has .223 SD in .474 caliber! But where is SD on our scale of Terminal Factors for Modern Solids? Does not Meplat Size and Nose Profile count for more? I think it does! And I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and some more, but I also had a backup plan called a 450 gr #13 Solid in .500 caliber at a hard hitting 2350 fps!......... HEH HEH......... Well, we did not quite make it to 5 pm that afternoon when word come "The Elephants are in the Village"........ Off we go...... The time has come. Sure enough, we found the head game scout and some partners, they had been following the elephants, now about 8-10 of them, through the village and to an area in the village thick as hell with brush. As we approached they were so thick in it they could not be seen from 10-15 yards away. In we go! Corris and Andrew in the lead, followed by Mark David, then myself, trackers and game scout, 4 guns total! I ain't gonna tell no big stories, it was very close, tight, and could turn real ugly real quick. We were winding our way around, every once and awhile get a glimpse of elephant in the thick stuff, never more than 10-12 yards. At one point we watched one medium bull work his way around until he either saw us, caught our scent, at any rate he came to investigate in a rather serious manner. While never a full out charge, he did press the issue and get his point across. To the point that Corris was fed up with it and just before the bull turned to go about his business Corris stated if he pushed another inch to take him! As it was, he did not push more, and we continued to investigate exactly what we were dealing with. There were two rather large bulls in the group, they were not old bulls, but they were large and lots of potential for the future, we decided to avoid them for our purposes, although we got an excellent look at one of them from about 25 yards, he was big in body! The rest of the bulls were medium to smaller younger bulls. In our winding around in the bush we found a small opening, and it seemed that several of the elephants were about to make their way to this position. This was where we would take our stand and try to take one of the medium bulls out. We all went down to our knees to wait. Mark David positioned to my left and just in front, Corris and Andrew both just off to one side and behind us. One smaller bull came into the opening and passed in front of us 10 yards away, then another, and the third in line was the medium bull which Corris said to take. By now there was concern showing in the elephants, they knew something was not right, and they became aware of our presence, Mark David was now at full stand, rifle up, for a side brain shot on #3....... I was still somewhat crouched but standing just to his side, as he fired the elephant collapsed in classic style, rear end first, followed by the front, I knew at that instance it was all over and no reason at all for me to back anything up, or even raise my rifle. However, we did stay very alert for the next few moments as to the actions of the other elephants, which all turned and ran not to return. Mark David put the insurance shot up through the heart between the legs, and the rest is history.............. Without a doubt, it was one of those wide eyed "WOW" moments for Mark David, and a very proud Father..................... When it was all said and done, that little bullet, 350 gr .474 caliber BBW#13 Solid at 2200 fps had passed completely through that elephants head and for all I know is still going........ I'd say one could not ask for much more than that..................... I can't wait to hear the discussion on this one............ My internet connection is not good enough to get any photos up at this time, it is hit and miss, but will get some up soon as possible........ Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Mike, my sincerest congrats to Mark David on this monumental occasion. Taking an elephant with a rifle chambered in a cartridge designed by, and shooting a bullet designed by, his Father, with his Father at his side.... could it possibly be any better ? Congrats also to the entire Team, Andrew, Corris and ofcourse the entire supportive MDM clan.  Superb. | |||
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Congradulations to all for a very successful hunt. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Congratulations for all. Look forward to the photographs. Cheers, Chris DRSS | |||
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Great report Michael, and glad Mark David got to shoot an elephant! He'll be hooked now! That little 475 B&M Super Short is a real killer especially in the hands of Mark David, he is a natural when it comes to shooting. That boy reminds me of me! Mark David is the fastest most accurate bolt gun shooter I have ever been around. I'm looking forward to hearing the rest of the stories. Sam | |||
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Thanks guys........ Decent internet in early morning... So here are some pics I managed to get uploaded... Mark David, Hippo, 475 Super Short... 350 #13 Solid  Buffalo.... 475 Super Short....... Matching 320 Raptor  Elephant... Side Brain shot.... 475 Super Short... 350 #13 Solid 2200 fps....  And last one, the 8 inch tree that I shot completely through with the .500 caliber 500 B&M 450 #13 Solid, which then traveled into that cow buffalo shoulder, through it, through the far shoulder and exited.... Notice the bark knocked off that tree....  Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Great animals and a definately chunk of bark missing! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Congrats to both you and your son! That "little" .475 became the giant killer. With this success, I don't have any worries now about my .450Mar in the BLR (of course OAL is 2.90"). .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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A great report, glad you had neat "Father/Son" hunt. Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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Great Report,and Congratulations to Mark David, fantastic safari. Hey Michael, I thought these bullets weren't brush busters! Thats one helluva tree to go through and keep going, great photo! Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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With that being said how effective is the 375 raptor on big game like elk, bear and how long range would they work for elk, deer. I have a few boxes of the 375 raptor 235 grain but have not load any or used any until I get my RE15 in. So I hope someone here could give me some feed back on them. I think they are a little lite, but I hope they work well for game stated above, | |||
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Great pics Michael458, I know you are having fun,love the tree one , hell with it just shoot through it. | |||
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Kev, I don't recollect a lot of information being posted regarding the .375 caliber CEB bullets and I'm using my iPad so don't have ready search capability. That said, the 235gr .375 ER Raptor has a .337 BC and a petal expansion at (if I recollect correctly) about 1600fps with a petal shear point at about 1700fps. So if I did recollect correctly that means a petal expansion at approximately 570yds and full petal shear at about 520yds. Trajectory obviously is dictated by the .337 BC and the muzzle velocity. Appropriateness for North American deer, elk, bear, etc.? Yes it is and should work extremely well for all of them. Something to recollect - the remaining shank weight post petal shear is approximately 183grs which is more than many unfired bullet weights used against the above listed game. Personally if grisly, brown, or polar bear is the prime item on the menu I'd use my .500/338 Lapua Magnum.  Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I agree on the big bears, I think the BC of the 375 raptor is 313, not much difference, good thing is the 270 tsx is 326 and the 270 aframes are 346.This means all these rounds will be within a 1 or 2 inch differences at 500 yards. | |||
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I plan on using 225 grain raptors at 2950 fps for Elk in my .416 B&M this fall. I don't expect to have any issues with it. Shots will be at over 300 yards. | |||
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I pulled the .337 BC for the 235gr ER Raptor from the CEB website, technical info tab for the bullet. The CEB website does list the 230 ESP Raptor with a .313 BC, again the technical info tab for the bullet. So looks like you have the better of the two options... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Max........ Yes, your little 450 Marlin is enhanced greatly with these bullets, as most of us already know. Far beyond what was ever thought of a few short years ago...
Seasons..... The #13 Solids are very reliable in brush, believe me, I hit sticks and trees on every hunting trip! LOL..... But the Raptors do not like brush, sticks at all, they go all to hell on a stick. I think if you hit a small tree dead on, the blades shear, and the remaining bullet keeps going, but just a stick or piece of brush, they go nuts then. Most expanding or trauma inflicting bullets do not do well in brush. These #13 Solids, different story, they bust brush better than anything I have ever seen or heard of and keep going. FYI... We went back to last years 3-4 inch diameter tree I shot through with the 50 B&M Alaskan, where the bullet (405#13 Solid .500) hit a tree 10 yards in front of me (I did not see) and proceeded dead straight to the buffalo exactly 30 steps behind the tree, entered mid buffalo, and exited. This tree seems to be healed over and doing fine, so all the "Tree Huggers" out there, these bullets do not seem to "KILL TREES" HEH HEH............. Some folks believe that our Softs are so good these days, there is just little use for solids. I disagree strongly for many many reasons. I have always contended, and since 2006 have advocated and used in the field myself, a solid for nearly all backup shots, on larger plains game, bear, and other animals not normally associated with solids. Situation.... What if your first shot does not put the animal down immediately? What happens? 9 of 10 times you are looking at the south end of a north bound critter, regardless of whether its buffalo, elk, bear, moose, zebra or what have you, right? Now regardless of what bullet you are using, even Raptors which provide deeper penetration than any and all conventional bullets, it may be a long long way from ass to vitals, even a Raptor may not reach there, one of those solids WILL. Might save a fellow a long and worrisome followup, or might save a lost animal. For this reason alone, The #13 Solid, or North Fork Solid is very viable in these situations. Now, even more likely (especially for me) one might be shooting through brush on that second backup shot if needed or required? What is more likely to get to its destination and solve your problem? A #13 Solid or North Fork Solid, of course. For me a #13 Solid, North Fork Solid is and will always be part of any hunt I might embark upon for these reasons alone, think of it as an insurance policy. I don't like loosing animals, I have been fortunate in all these many years and have never lost but 2 animals. Having one of these solids as backup for second + shots might just keep me from ever loosing another, fairly cheap insurance in the end I think.......... Kev........ Hey Buddy.... I saw your post about not having any RL 15 and needing some help with other loads. I think maybe you have been in touch with Sam on this??????? The only load data I have on the 375 is what is listed on the website..... I am sorry I don't have more, but your rifle is the only one I really messed with very much in 375 and I just don't have the support for it that I do the other B&M Cartridges.... Maybe I should break down and build myself one and work data? You know I don't care much for 375 caliber, not because its not dandy, but just because. Hell, with the invent of the 225 bullet in 416, I don't even like my 9.3 B&M anymore, and nothing less than 416 will ever go to the field with me again because of that bullet alone..... RL 15 without doubt is probably tops for this cartridge, however other powders might get you going close at least, IMR 4320 is great with the 210 Raptor in 9.3, I suspect that it might be good with the 235 in 375 as well...... with the 235 ESP you might want to start at 67-68 grains of IMR 4320 and check it out..... And if you have not, PM Sam and he can probably help more on this at the moment than I can. Maybe I consider building a test gun and do a full pressure workup on the 375 B&M when I return home????? Now concerning bullet performance of the 235 ESP Raptor, .375 caliber. I can promise you (based on the tiny bit of test work done with it at the lab) that you won't have one bit of trouble with the 235 on elk, moose, bear or anything else one might hunt with this rat caliber! I can also promise you without any doubt, that 235 will outperform ANY CONVENTIONAL in 375 that you would consider for the same purpose. You will get thru and thru penetration on any broadside shot on these animals. When I used the 9.3 B&M and 210 gr Raptor, I never recovered a bullet on any wildebeest or zebra shot. If I were going to use a 375 today, regardless of cartridge, I would choose the 235 over everything else available. And since its a rat caliber, then I would turn a few of those around to the solid end and backup with it too...... Now stop fretting over it, find some sort of powder, and go shoot something with this rifle! HEH HEH............
Tanks....... I can't see anything at 300 yards, much less shoot it, but that 225 Raptor is THE STUFF in the 416s........ Many of those bigger cow buffalo I shot last year, this bullet passed completely through broadside, can't ask anymore of a bullet than that. I have yet to use it on thinner skinned animals, but I have no doubt that it will perform very similar to the 458 250s, which have all been DRT with solid hits on any thin skinned game, including ZEBRA, which is notoriously tough critters. Knock a zebra in the dirt, you have accomplished something. I think the 225 on elk will be just excellent............. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Our AR group is like no other I tell you..... I just finished up a wonderful visit with Balule from here in Pretoria. We of course spoke about bullets, calibers and cartridges, my favorite subject on the planet........ Balule is a fantastic fellow and I was so happy with our visit, thanks Balule for making the time to come visit with me..... Friday morning I am off to Dios Y El Rey Hunting and Outfitters to meet with Dawid Du Toit. This should be great fun, and I am very much looking forward to the visit. Dawid imports the entire CEB line of bullets to South Africa and has them available for all the guys here. I will report after our visit...... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Seeing is believing. I have been very impressed with the large bore Raptors and plan on only using them in the future. Small bore Raptors also do a great job and kill extremely well for their light for caliber weight. Non Conventional! Until you try them you will have your doubts. Some will never believe or change. I have shot whitetails with 40 gr CEBs and had drop in their tracks results, with both shoulders broken and an exit. I have had a little roe buck run after being hit with a 6.5 Raptor but he was running when I shot him. Some animals I think you could shoot with a 105mm cannon and they would still run. Shot placement and what the animal is doing at the time of impact can make for very different results. If you watch the videos of the gel impacts on CEB's web site I think you can really understand why these bullets are so effective on game. Once you try them I think your reaction will be "I've never seen anything like that before". I just got a pm from a friend just back from a Omay buffalo hunt and he said the CEBs out of his 500 double kicked the buffalos XXX and said his PH who I think also has a 500 double said the he would use the Raptors for buffalo from now on. Sam | |||
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Kev5000: I went elk hunting here in Colorado with these .375 CEBs when they first came out. Got a very large cow. When gutted, we found inside the chest what looked like jello from all the devastation that bullet had done. Since then, have used the CEBs in "rat calibers" for all my elk hunting. Have not had anything but one-shot kills. I would give you the load data, but it was developed using a surplus powder, 8138, that I got an 8 lb keg of. I don't even know where it fits in to other powders, but seemed close to 4895. The groups with CEB bullets, most people would not believe! .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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How long of a shot was it?, trying to sell my house here in Alaska and move to Idaho elk will be on the menue. | |||
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I met Michael in the Northern Territory of Australia in 2009 when he and a friend brought out B & M rifles and a range of bullets to test on Asiatic Buffalo. He hunted with an aussie outfitter, Paul Truccolo who is a good friend of mine. 5 years later we caught up at the Dallas Show earlier this year, I just had to get my photo with one of those rifles. My wife Bronwyn and I were well looked after by a great group of people, it was an absolute privilege to attend the B&M dinner. Still looking for some wild bovines in NZ for you... Awesome thread. [IMG:left]  [/IMG] | |||
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EF, Welcome to the AR Forums and to the best thread on the forums! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Michael, sorry to be late to the party, but big congrats to you and Mark David on your adventures. I literally burst out laughing when I read the part about the .500 going through an 8" tree and both shoulders of a buffalo! I wonder what Wie Wie would have to say about that. HEE HEE! It does sound like Mark David has found his pet. The .475 never seemed to do much for you, but even with just the Super Short version he is deadly. Amazing performance for such a light, handy weapon. You and Sam and CEB have truly . . . "shook up the world!" | |||
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Michael It was huge fun to visit with you, AR is an amazing platform to connect with people who live half a world away at the drop of a hat. It felt as we have already shared a 100 camp fires. Enjoy your visit with Dawid tomorrow, who is great guy. I am going to drop a couple of bullets off at the hotel for you today. | |||
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EF....... Hey Buddy! Good to see you back on AR again... We did enjoy your visit at DSC, and hope you can find a way to return this year as well..... As for Bovines, well you know I love to put bullet to those Moo Cows! HEH........ Sam........
We have heard that a lot eh? There is a thread over on mediums about some of the bullets I have been involved with the last few days about some of the bullets, any of you rat guys have anything that might add to that would be good. I just don't have that much rat gun experience other than a couple of years ago with the 9.3 B&M..... and the deer and such taken by some of my buddies in SC, about all I can offer. So if you have some rat gun stories for that thread go down and post them for those guys....... Whelenite.... Yes that 8 inch tree story is just wild to say the least, seems to be repeatable as well since I keep doing it every year in some manner or another..... As for .474 caliber and myself, I just have never ever had any good luck with anything in that caliber! First it was the mess with the Capsticks from Win Custom shop. Then my very own 475 B&M with over sized barrel! Had it not been for those CEB Solids/Raptors, that would have been a disaster. It just seems that I have a curse when it comes to .474. In Australia on those buff I shot, I never found it anymore effective than the 458 B&M. While I am not dropping 475 B&M from the lineup, I damn sure don't recommend it to anyone, and would much prefer the 458 B&M in that caliber class. Currently there are only 3 475 B&M rifles and I have all three. For my part, it can remain that way....... With 458 B&M, there is just no reason for 475 B&M. The little 475 B&M Super Short, different story, it has been a success from day one, easy to load, no issues at all, and as we see rather effective. We have bullets designed by North Fork/CEB for both rifles and cartridges that will do the job as well. I think this hunt of Mark Davids will surely open eyes as to how to enhance a cartridge with bullet design to allow it to go to heights never before heard of. Come now, who in the world would have ever even think of, or consider taking elephant with a 350 gr Solid .474 caliber bullet? SD of .223............. Breaking the Rules? Absolutely Yes and then some, nothing will ever be the same again............. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Absolutely concur Balule...... Again, I really enjoyed our visit, more than you can imagine buddy! I look forward to seeing and visiting with Dawid tomorrow, and will report on our visit.... Hopefully some pics too.... For sure, drop the bullets off, we have a mission this morning and meeting at 9:30 am, not sure when we will be back, but during that time drop off at the reception and I will check that when we get back. Later I think Momma is wanting to do some shopping for some nice South African dresses and such..... WHEW......... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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416Tanzan, We have a couple of PHs who are using the 200gr HV on cape buffalo. Back it up initially but you will soon realise that it is the same backup that you would need for a heavier bullet and caliber - needed for badly placed shots. Aim for around 3100fps, 2600fps is too low and it will still recoil way less than a 338. Also, do not waste GSC bullets on experimenting with nodes, it does not work. The engraving pressure and pressure curve with GSC drive band bullets are completely different. Use the procedure that we outline on our Load Data pages for working up loads and, should you use more than 20 or so shots to do this, contact me so that I can help - There is something wrong in the system that you are using then and I have probably solved this for someone already. GSC drive band bullets are easier to use and different from ordinary bullets. Remember that the ATF problem is with brass and not with copper. It is a deplorable situation, brought about by politicians who know nothing about bullets. The problem is that they are using existing legislation to wield their big stick needlessly. To attack copper as a material, new legislation must be put in place. GSC uses copper, not brass, and this is considerably more difficult to embody in legislation and will be met with much more resistance. To get the brass situation resolved will be difficult because, once legislation is in place, it is more difficult to have it rescinded or changed, than to stop it in the first place. | |||
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Thank you, Gerard. This is helpful and encouraging. In our case we chose 2600fps as a probable comfortable learning load and potential hunting load for my 110 wife. She is a beginning hunter in her sixties and has been shooting a 270. Now she has a 375 Ruger and likes the feel of the little 20" barrel (Ruger Alaskan, pepper laminate) even though the rifle is heavier than her Tikka 270. She enjoyed her shooting the new 375 with various loads from 2000 to 2700fps, 200GSC, and 2300 to 2600 with 235 grainers and 250 grainers. Our thoughts are first to build confidence with the rifle, then hunting considerations. She may end up with 3100fps, since that is still light for a 375, but at 4250 footpounds it is a bit stiffer than the 338 she has occasionally shot for the experience. We'll need to see where she feels comfortable for general shooting and hunting. If and when she wants a buffalo, she may be ready for heavier loads. At least with traditional bullets the loads around 2600fps use faster powders that tend to be fairly accurate even in the slower configurations. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Good Morning Boys...... Morning in Pretoria, On the way home tomorrow................ While here in Pretoria, one of my missions was to meet with Dawid Du Toit at his shot Dios Y El Rey..... now for myself and the rest of US Citizens... Dawid is pronounced Da-Vid.... Not Day-Vid....... Its always the "W" that fools me.......... Dawid is the sole importer for Cutting Edge Bullets, thus my interest in visiting to get his thoughts on the bullets, share some stories, and of course hopefully learn something more, which I did. I found out Dawid is very serious about these bullets, has a great stock of them, and business is picking up, as more South Africans learn about what the bullets are capable of.    We had an incredible visit, I felt as if I had known Dawid for a long time. While he and I shared stories about bullets, hunting, shooting, and played around with the 475 B&M Super Short, and 500 B&M, Momma and Mercedes had a great visit with Dawids wife just outside the the shop. I found Dawid very knowledgeable not just about the various CEB bullets, but in all aspects of hand loading. Currently he is stocking several types of bullets other than CEB, brass and other hand loading components. In addition there is a possibility that he may even want to get some of the B&M rifles in stock in the future as well. Dawid showed me a new design, which is particular interest here that we were talking about just recently, the 230 ESP Raptor in .375 caliber..... The old design was an issue with some of the South African powders compressed. When Dawid mentioned it, I knew exactly the issue, putting that #13 Solid down so deep in the case pushes powders tot he side, not straight down, and in many cases causes bulge in the case, and it will not chamber easy. I have had this issue several times with various ESPs in other calibers. Dan must have given this bullet a total makeover, the #13 Solid end is far shorter, and nose projection of the bullet itself is longer and more sleek. The Talon Tip is shorter and redesigned as well. It is a very sharp looking bullet...... With less of the #13 in the case, the compression issue is solved now, while the redesign of the nose and Talon tips still allows it to be loaded in the magazine. Lets face it, in reality, most of the ESP Raptors will be used as a Raptor, and not a Solid. The Solid is important, but the focus should be more on the Raptor end, and Solid as a backup only for most of the rat calibers. Since I don't really keep up with the goings on of anything in .375 caliber, this was new to me. I think it is very good to see these things EVOLVE.............. For you guys with Rat guns, take a look at the new bullet.......... Not sure how much this carries over to other calibers and ESP designs........ The ESP is "revolutionary" to say the least. I have not been a BIG supporter of most of the bigger bore ESPs, but I have found a few that I really like a lot, that has worked very well for me. In 416 the 300 ESP is a great bullet, and fully capable of buffalo work. The fact that I can turn this one around as a solid and exact same POI at 50 works great for me in the 416 B&M. In one recent case this bullet turned out to be just the ticket for a bear guide in Alaska with a 416 B&M...... I have also used the .500 caliber 350 ESP many times with great success. In 9.3 caliber, the 210 ESP is the only bullet required in that caliber for what one would normally do with .366 and the only bullet I need. It is a death ray on all plains game, and would be on bears, elk, moose as well... As we reduce caliber and move to rat calibers, I see more value in the ESPs...... Remember my sermon on Solids? Well, this is the perfect solution for the rat guns and having a solid available if needed....... Dawid keeps a good stock of CEBs, and I learned has made many special orders for customers as well. I found some .500 caliber 365 Lever Raptors there, guess who that was for? Our buddy Org, and his 50 B&M Alaskan! Balule has also had Dawid get in some of the .510 caliber 510 Solids and 475 Raptors that he and his wife have been so successful with. So you guys in South Africa, give Dawid a call, if he don't have your choice of bullet, he can get it for you..........  Our conversation also consisted of us taken a look at the rifles and cartridges I had with me, 475 B&M Super Short and the 500 B&M, here is Dawid in the shop with the two cartridges.........  All South Africans take note, Dawid is a great source for you for hand loading, and more than willing to assist you in your endeavors. Not only can he provide the bullets for you, but assist you in getting a proper load worked up for your rifle. He understands completely how the bullets work, and how they can enhance your opportunities in the field. I see Dawid as an extremely valuable resource for all South Africans, take advantage of that. I know I have made a great new friend here in Africa, and I wish we would have had more time together, many of you know how "Long Winded" I can get when it comes to "BULLETS", and a couple of hours or so only gets us started. Dawid and his wife are now talking about coming to visit at DSC this coming year, if he can manage that, we will have a great time I know..................... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Kev, Range of that cow elk was between 175 and 200 yards. .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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