quote:

Originally posted by 7MMNut:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Michael,

Here is a question for you. Going to Zim this next year for a strictly trophy bull ele hunt...except for any exceptional trophies of opportunity. Taking my .500 NE double and my scoped .458 WM M70.

Let's say I kill a 100 lb'er the first day ...the remainder of the hunt...I will put out some leopard baits. My leopard rifle will be my .458 WM with 420g CEB Safari Raptors going ~2300 fps.

Will that bullet shear on a leopard?

First off Lane, before you leave, we will have loads for the 420 Raptor far beyond 2300 anyway, maybe I come up with a magic mixture by then... HEH......

Will it shear? Yes, it will, without any issues at all.....

I would agree with Jim concerning the 250 Socom, however, since you are mainly after Elephant, and having both guns set up for that purpose, the 458 as backup with 450/420 same POI, then the 250 Socom would have to be resighted for that purpose. I assume this is the case.... And the 420 would serve well for this purpose......

M

Or you have two scopes in QD rings like I do. My Nikon 1-4 is setup for the 420gr Raptors / 450gr Solids. The other scope, currently a Zeiss 3-9, is setup for the SOCOMs.

This makes perfect sense. No worries about 1" or 30mm size or or scope weight, just get the very best light gathering lighted reticle scope you can afford for night hunting of toothed/clawed critters.

Sam,

Congratulation. That is a every nice big bull hippo with big tusks and marks all over his body.

Stan

When it comes to hunting in far away places...I am a firm believer in the KISS rule...Keep It Simple Stupid. I have found it a good way to keep Murphy at bay from applying his law...if it can go wrong...it will (at least at some point in time).

My .458 is a sub min of angle rifle believe it or not and I have it shooting the 420/450 combo same point of impact...one ragged hole 6-shot groups...3 of each. The 420 Raptor is clocking at ~2300 fps. If the 420 .458 will shear on a leopard at 2300...I will just stick with it...as Forrest Gump always said...just one less thing.

I vote for the KISS Principle: 420-grain soft and 450-grain solid, both shooting into the same hole.
Any backup scope zeroed like the primary scope.
"Just one less thing."

quote:

My .458 is a sub min of angle rifle believe it or not and I have it shooting the 420/450 combo same point of impact...one ragged hole 6-shot groups...3 of each. The 420 Raptor is clocking at ~2300 fps. If the 420 .458 will shear on a leopard at 2300...I will just stick with it...as Forrest Gump always said...just one less thing.

Exactly as I thought, and what I would do as well, and have done many times over. With Bull Elephant the MAIN OBJECTIVE, then both rifles set for that, 458 Winchester 450 #13 Solid. Just so happens, by design, the 420 matching HP is in the same hole....... 450 Solid for that second gun emergency in case the other gun goes down for whatever reason, backup rifle, setup ready to serve for the main objective. Secondary objective taken care of by its matching 420 HP....... Covers all bases completely, and zero downside....... The 420 at 2300 will turn the leopard inside out.....

LVSP (Low Velocity Shear Point) with the 458 420 Safari Raptor is 1600 fps TESTED HERE. Now, let me clarify TESTED HERE. This means I could only lower the muzzle velocity to the LVSP. There is a difference in the LVSP done this way, and the LVSP done by longer ranges. At LONGER RANGE TESTS the LVSP is actually lower, and most likely would come in at 1400 fps or so.

I am very very sure that Lane will not be shooting a leopard at anywhere close to the range that would drop the bullet below LVSP........... At 50 yds with no tip, the bullet will be down to 2150 fps, with tip added, for that FIRST SHOT, and no downside in a leopard blind, then at 50 yards it is going to be at 2225-2250 fps impact. And there should be no change in POI as well........Not at 50-75 yds.....

Michael

Lane if my 577 Raptors opened on bushbuck and impala I don't think you will have any problem with you 458's opening on leopard. Also it gives you a much better chance to get a clean kill even on a marginal shot.

I have posted a full hunt report in Hunt reports.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Lane if my 577 Raptors opened on bushbuck and impala I don't think you will have any problem with you 458's opening on leopard. Also it gives you a much better chance to get a clean kill even on a marginal shot.

I have posted a full hunt report in Hunt reports.

Sam

NEWS FLASH...................................


Sam and I both spoke to our dear friend 450 NE this morning, I was on the phone with him around 5:30 AM.. Sam sometime later......
Now I am sure he is watching this post later sometime, but 450 NE is shy, he won't post much, leaves that to me and Sam mostly.
But anyway, he just got back from Zim Sunday with a wonderful, in fact incredible report on TWO ELEPHANTS.................

First elephant was with his 18 inch 458 B&M running that wonderful 450 gr BBW#13 Solid, Safari Solid from CEB. This runs around 2210 or so fps. 450NE busted, broke completely both shoulders of a big bull (Ivory around 60 lbs), bull never took a step! Down straight on his belly quicker than brain shot, never moved from that position again, big hole in the heart, both legs/shoulders broken. Bullet was not recovered, heat and suffering took its toll on everyone, 450NE included, and they think a strong possibility it exited as well.

Second elephant.... 500 Nitro Express, 510 gr #13 Solid, Safari Solid, hi velocity I think, using loads Sam and I developed here. Heart shot, elephant nearly went down on the spot, but gathered back up. Went very short distance, like 20-25 yards as I recall, stone cold dead........... For sure, 100% pass through exit, blew a 3 inch hole in the elephants heart..........................

EXCELLENT NEWS............ PH 450NE was hunting with had never in his life seen a solid exit an elephant!!!!!!!!! Of course I think he was mostly shooting some brand of factory ammo in 458 Lott......... 450NE has some sort of hornady bullet he is bringing to show me that they found failed on either buffalo or something, I actually forgot now............ We will find out....

Congrats to our pal 450NE................. And chalk up yet more success for an incredible bullet.................. Lets see, Success 100% Failures ZERO...... At least from everything that I know so far................... Not bad to have come from a backyard hillbilly place here in SC, as Trax states................

Michael

Great new congratulations to 450 NE!

I also have some great new to report, two deer have fallen to the .429 200 grain raptors! Both shot at 136 yards one quatering towards and the other through the shoulder.

I will have more details and photos to follow but the performance of these bullets even through bone has been extremely impressive!

quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:
Great new congratulations to 450 NE!

I also have some great new to report, two deer have fallen to the .429 200 grain raptors! Both shot at 136 yards one quatering towards and the other through the shoulder.

I will have more details and photos to follow but the performance of these bullets even through bone has been extremely impressive!

Get your ass to work with that 45 caliber 150 too.................

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
NEWS FLASH...................................



Congrats to our pal 450NE................. And chalk up yet more success for an incredible bullet.................. Lets see, Success 100% Failures ZERO...... At least from everything that I know so far................... Not bad to have come from a backyard hillbilly place here in SC, as Trax states................

Michael

Exactly what we expect anything less and we would be on the backyard hillbilly's ass. Less than perfection is not an option




Also congratulations to 450 NE!

Congrats to 450 NE, well done on the Ele!

Simply more proof of the effectiveness of the 458B&M caliber and the CEB bullets. In the past three years I have 3 Ele with the CEB solids from three different calibers: .458Lott, .458B&M, 500NE. All performed as expected and both the frontal and side brain shots dropped to the shot, as they should.

I suppose this is in the latest African Hunting Gazette, our old pal Wieland the Wee Wee is giving out advice and his extensive knowledge once again on bullet choices, cartridge choices and such. Of course I think he is in Norma Ammo's pocket as it eventually leads to Normas's African PH line of dangerous game ammo, HEAVY FOR CALIBER. During this line of pure Bull Sh*T he talks about how your 458 Winchester loaded with 450 gr bullets just don't work, and is far less effective than 458 Lott loaded with HEAVY FOR CALIBER BULLETS.

QUOTE FROM THE INFAMOUS EXPERT:.......

quote:

In recent years, in an attempt to resolve the 458 Win Mags chronic problems of velocity shortfall and or compressed powder, some handloaders have turned to 450 or even 400 gr bullets, which they can drive to 2200-2300 fps without difficulty. These make the 458 Winchester better than it was, no question. But is a slightly lighter bullet at slightly greater velocity a superior combination for dangerous game? No, it is not. In fact, the opposite is true.

He goes on to tout the 350s for 375, 600s for 505, 450s for 416, 550s for 458 Lott.

And of course in his opinion of the 458 Winchester he backs all this with 1960s root evil data and the lack of powder capacity for the 458 Winchester, how it could only do 1800-1900 fps then. Basically you must have the Lott over the Winchester, as the idea of using a 450 gr bullet does not help you. And in fact, just quite the opposite is true, according to him. Naturally he backs this up, "If you don't believe me, then just as Don Heath, no one knows more about it."

Well, there you go, I suppose all the work we have done here is worthless, and has no meaning now. Oh, and all these buffalo, elephant, and hippo that have been taken the last few years with our North Forks and CEBs, light for caliber, 450s, well that just don't matter and is of no consequence whatsoever, as Wee Wee Wieland and Don Heath have declared it so................. We must absolutely have HEAVY FOR CALIBER, as our 450s in 458 just will not work!

Michael

Terry Weeweeland

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
QUOTE FROM THE INFAMOUS EXPERT:.......

quote:

In recent years, in an attempt to resolve the 458 Win Mags chronic problems of velocity shortfall and or compressed powder, some handloaders have turned to 450 or even 400 gr bullets, which they can drive to 2200-2300 fps without difficulty. These make the 458 Winchester better than it was, no question. But is a slightly lighter bullet at slightly greater velocity a superior combination for dangerous game? No, it is not. In fact, the opposite is true.

Well, there you go, I suppose all the work we have done here is worthless, and has no meaning now. Oh, and all these buffalo, elephant, and hippo that have been taken the last few years with our North Forks and CEBs, light for caliber, 450s, well that just don't matter and is of no consequence whatsoever, as Wee Wee Wieland and Don Heath have declared it so................. We must absolutely have HEAVY FOR CALIBER, as our 450s in 458 just will not work!

Michael

Bet he has massive gastritis when he hears about the 450gr NFs FPS bullets being used in the 500 MDM against elephant. Talk about light for caliber...

Ignorance can be fixed, stupidity can not. Unfortunately Wee Wee falls into the latter category.

Hi Michael.
Do you have any interest in comparing the pressure and velocity of a once fired solid vs a twice fired solid with the rifling aligned? Was thinking of what the potential could be for a pre rifled groove diameter solid could be in terms of accuracy, pressure/velocity, fouling, barrel wear ect.

After work today my wife and I are heading to the secret lab in South Carolina. Going to do some more testing with the new 458 B&M SA and even going to take my muzzleloader to do some test work with CEB safari raptors. I will be delivering a boxfull of apple pie. I will not be making DSC this year so if none of this stuff makes it to Dallas you guys will have to blame Michael

quote:

my muzzleloader to do some test work with CEB safari raptors

quote:

I will not be making DSC this year

quote:

I will be delivering a boxfull of apple pie.

quote:

a twice fired solid with the rifling aligned

Not sure I can figure out how to do that....... Align the rifled bullet with the rifling??????

Michael,
This year, could I get more than just a sip, oops, "bite" of that apple pie?
Also, I will organize prior to opening, a search team in case your "princess" decides to enjoy the show on her own again.
Will be happy to see you and the family again.

Prof,

What not just organize a discrete security team and allow Mercedes to enjoy herself?

I guess you could either load out long and adjust the round till it chambers freely engaging the rifling like loading a 458 win mag to 458 Lott OAL or push it backwards back down the barrel and top off the case with filler ect. Precision muzzle loading

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

a twice fired solid with the rifling aligned

Not sure I can figure out how to do that....... Align the rifled bullet with the rifling??????

Boomie, have you been in the "apple pie"!

First, "printed bullets" and now recycling bullets.

Keith

Get your ass to work with that 45 caliber 150 too.................
[/QUOTE]

I am working on it Michael,dont got much ass left!

Trying to kill a black bear with the 54 then proceed to hammer a doe with the 240 raptor out of the muzzloader!

Well I know I have been MIA and promised a full report with photos, well you get the report minus the photos since I have not recieve them yet since it was 20 below in Montana last week and the deer are deersicles. Wes over at 7x Leather got to do some testing with the .429 200 grain raptors out of a muzzleloading pistol.
I think it was an CVA with a healthy does of Blackhorn 209. The exact velocities are unknown at this time but 1800+ is not unimaginable. He shot 2 deer a doe and a buck at 136 yards, the doe was quartering towards him the bullet broke the on side shoulder, one blade cut the throat while one chipped a rib exiting, they never found an exit and think the base is on the far side at the back of the rib cage, lets just say DRT not even a twitch. Second buck was shot through the shoulder at the same distance made it about 30 yards, the blood trail was imprssive, that bullet exited.

Fantastic performance even at an extended distance! I will update with photos when I get them.

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Boomie, have you been in the "apple pie"!

First, "printed bullets" and now recycling bullets.

Keith

Its the blueberry you need to worry about!

Printing bullets is not so far fetched in the near future.
The idea is not to recycle bullets but to start with pre rifled bullets to your twist. One way to test the potential benefits was to start with a captured non deforming solid as a prototype.
Some potential benefits include lower pressure/higher velocity, less barrel wear, better accuracy, full groove solid diameter, higher BC ect. "Apple Pie" can help creativity and shooting .

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Boomie, have you been in the "apple pie"!

First, "printed bullets" and now recycling bullets.

Keith

Terminals and a hunt report

Things have worked out so that I am able to give my annual two-shillings to a terminals thread with real-world data. There are some bullet pictures and terminals discussions below, but it might be more fun to see the pictures and bullet discussions in the larger context, so allow me to give some longer descriptions of the hunt itself.

Things started out by keeping us off balance before the hunt started. My son and I had planned to hunt in the Lokisale area. A few weeks before our hunt we heard some good disappointing news: the Maasai open areas around Tarangire National Park were shut down for the season in order to allow a better control for the anti poaching units. That is good news for conservation and both my son and I approved heartily. There have been some nasty elephant poaching operations going on in country and it was about time that the government stepped in to deal with the problems seriously. On the other hand, that closing meant that we needed to scramble in order to make other plans very late in the season. Last year we had a similar situation when one game control officer took off for two weeks during our planned hunt, and our 'backup area' was appropriately blocked because some local hunters had overshot their quota during the two weeks before our outing. We approved then, too, of the decision of the Game Control Officer to close the season in that area. This year, as fortune would favor, that same area had an open quota for buffalo, so we headed up country and set up a camp about 10 km. west of K-2 Selous, for those of you who know the Selous. (We did not know at the time that four groups had been in the area over the past month or so and had returned without buffalo.) We were throwing all of our cards into a buffalo hunt because the hartebeest, eland, and wildebeest quota was already full.

We were a small group, entailing a Game Scout, Driver, son, Tanz and wife. On the way into camp we were happy to try out a new 25 cal Marauder air gun. It is accurate and powerful enough for birds as the following picture shows.


This was the first of our camp meat birds.

On the first day out of camp we got to see the general area and ran across some very fresh buffalo tracks of a large herd in the morning. I was of the opinion to start tracking right there but the Game Scout thought it better to go farther up the "road" to the north and to circle back south east on another track in order to cut them off and better locate the herd from a closer position. We tried that throughout the morning, seeing several smaller antelope that were not part of our hunt. However transversing the whole length of the area where we hoped to find buffalo tracks we saw nothing. Such is hunting. Later in the afternoon we return to the area and circled around on a southern track. This time we found the tracks of the herd crossing our tire tracks from the morning. But since it was 45 minutes to sundown and without sufficient time for a stalk and hunt, we had to wave goodbye and score round one for the buffalo.

The next day we followed a different car path. About a half-hour out of camp the driver thought he saw 'elephant'. I was in the back seat and only saw black logs in a fairly dark forest about 100-150 yards away. The Game Scout and son clarified that they were buffalo and with a big male. Outside the car I passed the 416 to my son, carrying a 338, and asked him to shoot since I still wasn't seeing any 'big male', just black shadow logs. He declined and both of us were inwardly happy when the herd took off. Now the hunt was on. We tracked about a half-kilometer east by GPS, then a bit south and saw shadows again in a small copse. The ground was too open to approach on their tracks so we backed up and tried to circle around to that copse. Ten minutes later we found the copse empty with tracks leading southwest. OK, we had bumped them twice, so we needed to be careful before chasing them right out of the area. Even so, they didn't appear to be overly spooked and were not running very much.
About 800 yards south of the car, having done 3/4 of a circle we noticed that the buffalo turned east again.

Once again we came up on shadows about 100+ yards away in a shaded wooded section of the forest. I couldn't see any animal clearly, so I hobbled forward on my knees to one tree and then to a second tree, hoping for a better look. A big black shadow moved to the left about 110 yards away. It was the big male. I had a tree rest for stability and a thin but clear line on the broadside-ish silhouette. The line-up of the silhouette under the hump looked good so the brain squeezed off the shot. The GameScout and my son told me that it looked like the 416 almost knocked the buffalo over. The smallish herd ran off (7 animals?) and we walked into the shadowy area hoping that maybe the buffalo was already down.

Here is a picture of what the shooter was looking at:


If you look close in the center you will see my son standing about twenty yards in front of where the buffalo had been standing when the first shot was taken. I share this because a hunter must weigh reasonable certainty of a fatal shot with the conditions at hand in a bump-and-track situation. It helps to have confidence in the rifles. (They had been sighted in two days before at 100 and 300 yards. The 416 was 2-2.25" high at 100 yards and tracked true to 300 yards, dropping 6 inches.) An illuminated scope would not have helped in this situation since the problem of visibility was not the crosshairs themselves, but the exact position of the black buffalo against the shadows. Meanwhile, back to the hunt. What did we find when we got to where the buffalo had been standing?

Nothing. So we followed some tracks and after about 50 yards we saw some bright red drops. OK, that was better than maroon blood or grass, but I could have hoped for more blood, especially if it was a broadside passthrough of the 350 grain TTSX. I did hear a distant half-bellow and was secretly hoping that the buffalo was already dead. We kept tracking very slowly. I had added a TTSX to the chamber to keep things "full" while my son had flat nosed solids in the 338. Don't laugh, every bit helps when tracking buffalo and a flat nosed 338 solid will do the job from any direction if placed properly. After about 125 yards of tracking we came to some tall grass and an increase in blood. Rather than continue straight the GameScout thought it prudent to circle to the north and get a different look at the blood trail leading into the tall grass. I concurred, absolutely. We were parallel to that blood trail about 20-25 yards into the grass and 20-25 yards north. We saw a tail swish. The buffalo was on its feet facing the trail that we would have been walking on. I shot again, below a broadside backline, this time facing right. Boom and down. But this time the buffalo started throwing its head high in the air, wondering why his body wasn't answering his call. My son stepped forward, cut the distance in half and drilled the back top of the neck with a solid that came out the side of his face. It was over and smiles and handshakes were given all around.



The driver has joined us on the left, with Tanz, son, and GameScout.

The first shot, it turns out, had entered at something of an angle and hit the lungs but missed the heart.



Inside the bullet took out a rib on an angle as seen in the next picture.



When the second shot presented itself we were grateful that it was a stationary broadside and not a face-on charge. It crunched the spine and exited:

Here is the inside view of the broken spine, with grass pointing at the spot:

The spine shot stopped the animals walking ability, but the animal was like a bucking bronco until the third shot:


The entry wound is the white mark in the middle of the neck behind the horn boss. Yes, "rat calibres" have value, too, especially when loaded with flat nose solids. (Incidentally, these flat noses feed perfectly in the straight-line, vertical feed magazine of the Tikka. Yes, they are some of the old Barnes 250 grain 338 solids, purchased before the BATF shut down Barnes' ability to sell solids of any shape. Shame on the BATF. And even though we rue Barnes' decision to market round nose solids, flat nose solids were still available on the website and presumably will be so again whenever the BATF starts treating hunting bullets as hunting bullets and all companies equally.)

The buffalo itself was large bodied and meaty though his horns were not impressive. That evaluation would have changed dramatically if faced with them in a charge. Here is his head:

As you can see, he had a large growth on the right side of his face/neck.



And finally, the terminals and any lessons.

The Barnes 350 grain TTSX in .416 had a muzzle velocity of approximately 2825 fps. At 110 yards the bullet would have had an impact velocity around 2610 fps, with 5200 ftlb impact energy. Because of the angled entry into the buffalo we were fortunate to recover a bullet:


As you can see, the bullet blew it petals, but had enough remaining velocity and momentum that it was still able to form a mushroom! The resulting bullet was .77" long and weighed 258 grains, about a 74% retention after blowing all four petals. The mushroom of the remainder was .65", about 156% of the bore diameter. I am not sure about where the bullet ended up. It was recovered after the whole mass of the inerds, the heart-lung-liver and esophageal mass, was pulled out of the animal.

Here are two pictures showing an overhead view of the mushroom and another shot with the flash that gives better clarity:





The cases are also encouraging. The Hornady 416 Rigby cases have nice round-edged primers, Fed 215 match. (wow, it's been a year since I've seen Fed 215 match available.) The Nosler 338 WM case was also fine, though probably closer to its max load. It still has some rounding though is flatter than the Rigby case primers. Incidentally, both rifles were firing at 2800+ fps. The 338 WM sent 225 TTSX bullets out at 2838 fps. During sightin it was shooting 1.5" high at 100 yards and about 7" down at 300 yards, also straight on, like the 416. The 250 grain solids shoot a inch or so lower and were not tested for distance or drop.

Were there any lessons to be learned from all of this?

Well, this is the third year in a row that we recovered bullets from a buffalo. I have considered the possibility of moving to a heavier bullet, say a 400 grain TSX, but on second thought I can't complain with the thump and smack of the 350 grain TTSX. So we will stay with the 350 grainers for now. (They are also already in country, which trumps everything in Africa.) We now have another 416 in the US, so we can test out some other bullets in a sister rifle. It will be nice to see if we can get the talon-tip CEB raptors to shoot in a 16.5" twist barrel. We haven't had time to test those yet. The last couple of times that I tested the 175/180 grain raptors in .338 we could not get the rifle to avoid flyers.

On scopes, I must say that I still enjoy the 2-8 Nikon on the 416. I haven't found a need to switch to its backup, a 1.6-5 Nikon Slughunter with 5" eye relief on a Chech mount that handles the short 4.75" mounting space. The 4" eye-relief is enough as long as one hold on tightly. Watching the rifle jump up during my son's sighting-in reminds us to keep holding on tight and to get used to positions with the head more upright than creeping into the scope.

As for all-around calibres, the 300-yard testing was very gratifying out in the field with both the .338" 225 grain TTSX and the .416" 350 grain TTSX. Both of those guns are shooting as flat as a 270 or 30-06. Both guns are very comfortable to shoot and can be recommended for experienced shooters. Only the 416 is legal for buffalo in Tanzania, but the 338 is a nice general calibre for smaller antelope and a guest rifle.

Finally, we are new to air gunning for guineafowl and spurfowl. The .25 cal Marauder has made a name for itself as a quality entry-level PCP hunting air rifle. We are impressed. Not only is the Marauder accurate and more than adequate in power, but it is very quiet with a well-fitted shroud. It is quite nice to be able to take a guinea fowl without worrying about sending a warning message to every animal within a few kilometers.

Thank you, Michael and thread, for all of the bullet discussions over the years.

Congrats on a successful hunt Tanz. Thanks for the articulated report. Best to you and your family.

Congrats Tanz.... Excellent report....

416Tanzan,
Congratulations.
The .416/350gr TTSX at +2800 fps MV is adequate indeed.
You did very well taking a buffalo under those conditions, getting it all to come together,
from logistics to the moment of truth in threading the needle.
Are you a self-guided resident hunter, or is that your son who is your ticket?
First degree relative status covers you accompanied by son?
How does this work with getting a Game Scout and Tracker but no PH in Tanzania?

Lots of good hunting this past year.... I had some myself and some friends returned from late season hunts, I see Todd has returned with great success... He has a Hunting report upstairs, go see. His North Fork Solids did a great job for him on his elephant, just as we would expect, no surprises....... Other great successes with the 458s and 450 gr #13s on elephant, buffalo and hippo this year too, I had something to do with some of that myself, saw it in person you might say. Another friend 450NE was successful in the extreme, one elephant with 458 B&M 450 #13 Solids, another with 500 Nitro and 510 #13 Solids... Exited, no recovery of course, and two very down and out elephants...... Again, no surprises to us..... Too bad many of the boys upstairs don't see that???? Hmmmmm???? Anyway..............

Our pal 450 NE had some stories to tell me... His PH uses 458 Lott, and Hornady Factory Ammo... Poor Bugger.... But you know, sometimes these guys just can't get anything else, so they use what they have... 450NE and his PH did not mind a little bullet testing, and the PH was impressed in the extreme with the #13s, both 458 and 500 NE..... He flatly stated that none of his bullets from 458 Lott had EVER EXITED and elephant, from any angle......... NEVER!!!!!! Well, 450NE sent me two bullets they recovered from his elephants, fired with the PH 458 Lott I can plainly see exactly why he has never seen an exit on elephant, with his bullets................. This comes as no great surprise to us...........












Yeah, all well and good, but you know this Hornady ammo is very very reasonably priced..... Probably the cheapest big bore ammo out there! Yeah Boy, that's just exactly what I want to think about when that elephant or buffalo, or hippo is bearing down on top of me, SHIT, maybe I should have spent the extra dollar on a better bullet????

But you know, all the ones that use these have NEVER EVER HAD ONE FAIL.....................

Enjoy

Michael

That thing had to be going sideways soon after entering the elephant to get flattened like that.
Fish tail to the max.
Or shootaway tampered with it after recovery.
He has been known to test bullet expansion properties with a sledgehammer.
Are those sledgehammer marks on the side of the bullet?

Seriously, is the first bullet ("Hornady Round Nose FMJ") the older version Hornady "solid", or is it the same DGS?
The little semi-flat meplat on the DGS does not do it any good, eh?
Still a round nose!

DGS cutaway:

Another tumble solid!

Michael,

There is a valid use for that reasonably prices Hornady DG ammo for the non-reloader.

Buy a bunch of it and become extremely proficient and accurate with your DG rifle. Then have one of the speciality houses (or a great buddy) load up the appropriate CEB, NF, or GSC bullets in custom loaded ammo to match the POA/POI of that factory Hornady ammo and use the custom loaded ammo for the hunt.

I perceive that as a win-win situation... Reasonably priced ammo with poorly constructed bullets for practice and more expensive ammo with properly designed/constructed bullets for use when it counts.

quote:

Seriously, is the first bullet ("Hornady Round Nose FMJ") the older version Hornady "solid", or is it the same DGS?
The little semi-flat meplat on the DGS does not do it any good, eh?

RIP...... The RN is a Hornady FMJ RN, older design...... As we know, all RN regardless of make or model, are inherently unstable during terminal penetration.... While those who use them... ANY RN.... claim to have NEVER EVER NOT ONCE had a problem, we confer with many guys throughout the season, and we all ask the same question, "How many elephant get away because the RN veers off course?" And who is to know, as it has ran away and lost........

The DGS is a "Want To Be"....... The smaller meplat is a sell out (my opinion) on performance, so it will feed in cheaper factory rifles, sell more ammo, sell more bullets....... As we have stated here for years..... "All FN are not created Equal".
This bullet suffers "TWO" failures of the 8 Factors Of Solid Terminal Penetration. #1.... Inadequate Meplat #2 Construction.

I am quite sure Ivan Carter, of some "Hornady" fame has most certainly never had a problem with his Hornady bullets! Maybe they make two versions? Ivan Version, and of course the normal ones everyone else gets? Pure BS........................


Cappy... Yes, good cheap burn up ammo for practice...... An excellent use of and about the only use of this stuff. Of course, I do like the brass they put out, at least the ones I have used, and also, Hornady is the official B&M Die maker, of which I have really became fond of over the last few years, with the exception of this past years drag out time frame on our dies, but the quality of the dies is very good, and very rarely have ever presented an issue. But this bullet, its pure BS from the beginning to the end, and anyone who says otherwise, is the same...................... Maybe Hornady should have a "Premium" ammo selection, truly for Dangerous Game.... Loaded with either CEB or North Fork bullets! Of course, the price would be about $20 more per box............ HEH............

M

and I can testify that the Hornady brass is good stuff, it was actually more consistent in weight than the last batch of Norma 416 Rigby that I had. The Norma batch came in two weights, 328.5gn avg., and 338.5gn avg. so Hornady is doing some things right and they helped out in the developing of the 375 Ruger case/cartridge. They are definitely helping hunters, even if their solids are not DG worthy.

They likely figure their DG bullets are no worse than other traditional C&C bullets plus they feed through assembly line manufactured rifles so no need to change.

Their brass does seem to be very consistent in quality though with the volume they pump out a bad batch is likely to arise occasionally.

Dies are very good. RIP and I were very lucky when we ordered to 49-10 custom dies. Hornady had just received/installed a new die production machine and our order was directed towards it (along with a lot of backlog work) so the dies were delivered w/i 4 months.

Hornady, bless their hearts, do make excellent brass and reloading dies, I agree.
They make some excellent target bullets too, one example of bazillions they make being the .510/750-grain A-Max.
If only they could make some "PREMIUM" hunting bullets for the big bores ... just sayin'.

quote:

In Texas a wounded warrior soldier recently shot a whitetail buck with a .308 Win caliber rifle, loaded with a 100 gr ESP Raptor at 3,300 fps. At around 100 yards, the bullet entered broadside and exited the far side of the ribcage.

This photo is of the nearside lung, and you are looking at the far side (exit side) of that lung. The exit hole of the Blunt Trauma Base is circled in blue. Around it in a star pattern, you can see the six blades’ exit paths. The blue arrow points to a thumb for size reference. The far side lung was shredded.

This clearly shows how the blades radiate out in a start pattern, surrounding the Blunt Trauma Base, magnifying its destruction. It looks a lot like you are looking at the end of a revolver cylinder!

Of course Terry Wee Wee says that this is impossible, can't happen.............

M

Michael, have you ever used a file on the tip of Hornady DGS or the Woodleigh solids to increase the size of the meplat? Although, this would weaken the bullet a bit, there may be enough steel jacket remaining to be strong...just thinking. Regards, AIU