AIU
Never with a hornady or FMJ... I tried that with a copper solid once, did not work. Has to be very precise, and even though it measured good, looked good, it went all to crap, as bad as a RN.
M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
AIU
Never with a hornady or FMJ... I tried that with a copper solid once, did not work. Has to be very precise, and even though it measured good, looked good, it went all to crap, as bad as a RN.
M

Michael, saw you on TV recently hunting South Africa with CEB bullets - great footage. I think more is coming. AIU

AIU... Don't watch that stupid crap... Give you a headache. I think my appearance was so horrible the show has been canceled for the next season... so don't waste time with it....

Michael, you did fine...as good as any of the others on these outdoor shows. The info is what counts. Sorry to see you stop. AIU

Thanks AIU, but I don't watch it, awful... .HEH HEH.... :hillbilly:

By the way, Merry Christmas to all..... This is the week, "It's beginning to feel a lot like Christmas"

I know, Maybe I can sing for you guys!!!!!!!!! Can't be any worse......

michael

and a very merry Christmas to you and yours.

Merry Christmas to All!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!! AIU

Merry Christmas one and all!
Happy New Year! This one is almost terminal as we penetrate a new one.

Merry Christmas everyone and a Happy New Year!

Keith

Over 4 years ago we started this thread. November 3 2009. 287 pages, 11463 posts, and 346706 Views....... My goodness, I think as a group we have accomplished much in this time, and came a long long way from where we were. We learned much along the way, together. We learned the "8 Factors" of Terminal Penetration for Solids. This has never been known before, if it was, I did not know it, and had never seen it anywhere. We learned step by step how the new Non Conventional Bullets actually worked, this has never been done before either. We learned how CPS style bullets worked, Cup Point Solids, and why they work the way they do. I imagine there are many other things that we have learned along the way, but for me, those are 3 major ones that always stick out in my mind.

Not only has our work in the lab been successful, our ideas collectively put together to become reality, and in addition, collectively, we have taken these ideas, these new bullets, and we have been successful in the field as well. After all, getting them to the field is the point of all of it, and we have succeeded and made great strides. We have done things here that have never been done before. I am very proud of what we have all accomplished together. And I am very proud to be associated with such a fine group of gents!

May we continue to learn from each other in our endeavors..................... And take our efforts to the field in which we can be more successful as we continue forward.

Merry Christmas my good friends......................

Michael

Not a big bore but is does relate to terminals. I shot two whitetail does today at 100 yards with my 260 AI. Both deer were about the same size and identical shots high on shoulder. The first one I shot with a 100 gr CEB Raptor with tip. This deer hit the dirt so fast the other deer just stood there. Bad idea! The second one I shot with a 130 gr Swift Scirocco. That deer never hit the ground and ran about 60 yards and wobbled then fell over. Exit hole on the CEB was about caliber size and the Swift was about two inches in diameter with bones sticking out of the hole. The bullets did not hit the spine on either deer. I did not get a chance to autopsy the deer but it was clear to me which bullet I prefer. I'm thankful the one I shot with the Swift ran down the road and not into the woods because it was pouring rain. Blood tracking might have been tough.
MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone!

Sam

Doc M,

Yep, you have certainly earned your honorary PhD-BS, "Doctor of Ballistic Science."
Knowledge is power.
Here's some apple pie to you:
And let us spike the eggnog for all here.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, y'all.

Thank you RIP... But I was not alone in this great adventure of ours, plenty of good help, right here on this thread, without which all this would not have been possible for sure.

I have pie chilling right now ready for what the day brings......................

M

quote:

The first one I shot with a 100 gr CEB Raptor with tip. This deer hit the dirt so fast the other deer just stood there. Bad idea! The second one I shot with a 130 gr Swift Scirocco. That deer never hit the ground and ran about 60 yards and wobbled then fell over. Exit hole on the CEB was about caliber size and the Swift was about two inches in diameter with bones sticking out of the hole.

Sam, very typical of the NonCons... Caliber in most of the time, caliber out most of the time. To the novice investigator, that has not left his conventional thinking behind, this would look like the old term "Penciling Through" and doing nothing. Until opened up and see the massive destruction inside. There have been several guys see this and think the bullet did not open up or work, but they did not look inside. Lazy investigators!

You calling me LAZY?

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
You calling me LAZY?

The guys who just look outside, and don't know what they are looking at, and don't look inside.....

Of course, you did not look inside either, but you have seen inside, so you know..

HEH......

Merry Christmas and a Very Happy New Year Everyone

Happy Holidays to all !

To piggu back off Sam's post regarding CEB and deer. I shot a med size deer last night, probably dress at 90#. I was using my 300 win mag, because I can, and 140 CEB raptors with the tip. These babies are coming out of the barrel at around 3500 fps. I was 195 yds out. Took deer on a from quartering shot right on f point of shoulder and existed just behind should on opposite side. Of course all 6 blades exited. I thought I missed because after recoil I expected to come back into scope and see deer laying DRT. It was just about dark so I walked up to do the obligatory look see. And low an behold about 50 yards away was a dead deer. Upon field dressing I found that only a small piece of the heart attached to the aorta and vena cava was still there. The lungs were actually not where they were supposed to be either. They were completely blown into the rib cage. Almost as if they were heat welded against the ribs. I had to peel them off the ribs. What freaking damage, but yet this perfectly relaxed and feeding deer still made it 50 yds. Interesting. The high should shot seems to be the DRAT shot for whitetail deer.

Brent.....

How in the world could your deer take a step with that much damage? There is another fellow here on AR, contacted me a couple of weeks ago, with much the same story, same bullet, hi velocity, shot 5-6 deer with it, all dead, but not one of them DRT on the spot? Told me of one deer that when they were looking for the heart, they could not find it? Later finding only pieces of the heart about thumb size, completely blown to bits, the deer ran 40-50 yards.. WITH NO HEART AT ALL. He asked why no DRT? I don't have that answer, and I think he is actually a little aggravated with me somewhat because of no DRTs..... I don't see how in the world they can do that?

Around home here I have been loading that 100 gr ESP Raptor for the guys in 308 and 30/06. They have shot probably a dozen deer total this year, most all DRT, one went about 5-6 yards and fell over stone cold. ????? Maybe SC deer are sissies???? LOL....

I shot a eland on the point of the shoulder with your 500 MDM 350 ESP at 2700 fps. It ran dead out for exactly 50 yds and died literally on its feet and took a tremendous nose dive. It had a full 2 inch hole through its heart, lungs destroyed, bones crunched and just an awful mess. I was amazed it could go that far with that much damage.

Working on a 416 B&M for a fellow, a bear guide in Alaska. He ordered up a 18 inch gun with one of the desert camp Ultimate stocks. Man, it is nice, light, short, handles great. In the beginning I had that 225 #13 at 2900 fps in mind for his backup rifle and his backup load. However, he only wants iron sights on the gun right now, and with the irons the 225s at velocity shoot way too high with the big ivory flip up bead on the rifle. No more adjustment, and yes I know I can put a taller bead up front and bring it down, but the taller beads are not available with the big ivory bead. I am not willing to sacrifice that big bead.

So now, I am choosing the 300 ESP Raptor at 2500 fps for his load in this gun, with the irons. Both tipped Noncon end, and solid end are dead center with the big bead at 25 yds. It is my contention that this bullet will do very nicely as big brown bear medicine. And a few solids along don't figure that hurts anything, even though I think the HP version will give plenty of penetration from the rear on a bear..........

I plan on loading some 225s to send with the rifle for him to try out, but I think he will need a scope to work with them.

Any thoughts on my choice for this fellow?

Michael

Michael,

It sounds about perfect, but then you know how much I like the 416 B&M. Its a shame about the 225's seems like they would be ideal for him.

Michael,

I haven't seen any data on what velocity is possible with the a 500 gr. mono-metal bullet out of the 458 Win. I realize that some case capacity will be lost due to that bullets length and most use the 450 gr. for this reason. Can you still get useable velocity from this combo?

465H&H

Michael,

I'm thinking a bear guide using iron sights for up-close work would want a large very visible fron sight for ease of bear acquisition.

Have you thought of giving the bear guide an optional front ramp sight insert? Something such as these from NECG:
Large White Bead High R-108-855
Fiber Optic High R-108-655
Or perhaps just eliminating the flip-up front sight insert completely and just going with either of the above?

Just a thought...

Michael,

I know this is likely a 'not so bright' question, but "what is the typical 'zone range' the guide perceives he'll be using the rifle at. I know it's up front and personal, but is it something like '5 yds to 10 yds'?

Just wondering...

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael,

I haven't seen any data on what velocity is possible with the a 500 gr. mono-metal bullet out of the 458 Win. I realize that some case capacity will be lost due to that bullets length and most use the 450 gr. for this reason. Can you still get useable velocity from this combo?

465H&H

465HH......... Back in 2005 I took a 500 Barnes FN to 2132 fps with a dose of RL 15, heavy compressed. But today could not get enough of this batch of RL 15 in the case to do that. I would say you could attain 2100 fps and stay under pressure with a 500 #13 Solid. I was able to hit 2170 fps with the #13 480 at 60000 PSI....

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

I know this is likely a 'not so bright' question, but "what is the typical 'zone range' the guide perceives he'll be using the rifle at. I know it's up front and personal, but is it something like '5 yds to 10 yds'?

Just wondering...

The Alaskan guides think a bit different sometimes than our African PHs. Or at least this is my perception of many of them. They worry about a bear getting into the thick stuff and have been known to shoot a little further, of course depending on the client. I have never had one of my bears shot, but most of them have been pretty close anyway. I have heard of guides shooting the bears as far as 50-100 yards to keep them from getting in some thick stuff. I have also heard of at least one guide that got a little excited and shot his client as well! Probably 8-10 years ago..... My best guess on those guys, they are thinking less than 50 yards, and of course the occasional up close and personal meetings....

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

I know this is likely a 'not so bright' question, but "what is the typical 'zone range' the guide perceives he'll be using the rifle at. I know it's up front and personal, but is it something like '5 yds to 10 yds'?

Just wondering...

The Alaskan guides think a bit different sometimes than our African PHs. Or at least this is my perception of many of them. They worry about a bear getting into the thick stuff and have been known to shoot a little further, of course depending on the client. I have never had one of my bears shot, but most of them have been pretty close anyway. I have heard of guides shooting the bears as far as 50-100 yards to keep them from getting in some thick stuff. I have also heard of at least one guide that got a little excited and shot his client as well! Probably 8-10 years ago..... My best guess on those guys, they are thinking less than 50 yards, and of course the occasional up close and personal meetings....

M

Ok... I think I'd have gone with your 50 B&M instead. I know it's accurate with iron sights at 200yds using your die-rounded-nose 500gr Hornady XTP bullets. Today Tipped CEB Lever Raptors would be more accurate and more deadly, plus it ought to be good at around 230yds or so...

But the .416 B&M is my second most favorite cartridge. I just look at it as definitely a scoped close work to 325yds or so cartridge...

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

In Texas a wounded warrior soldier recently shot a whitetail buck with a .308 Win caliber rifle, loaded with a 100 gr ESP Raptor at 3,300 fps. At around 100 yards, the bullet entered broadside and exited the far side of the ribcage.

This photo is of the nearside lung, and you are looking at the far side (exit side) of that lung. The exit hole of the Blunt Trauma Base is circled in blue. Around it in a star pattern, you can see the six blades’ exit paths. The blue arrow points to a thumb for size reference. The far side lung was shredded.

This clearly shows how the blades radiate out in a start pattern, surrounding the Blunt Trauma Base, magnifying its destruction. It looks a lot like you are looking at the end of a revolver cylinder!

Of course Terry Wee Wee says that this is impossible, can't happen.............

M

Now THAT graphically shows the blades working in harmony with the Blunt Trauma Base! No doubt about it!

So today i finally was able to get the drop on a couple of whitetail doe with the muzzleloader. I have been wanting to try 458 CEB bullets. The bloody things are finicky. Anyway i got a 295 raptor to fly ok, not near as tight as barnes, but i also have not worked with the CEB as much. I guess it is traveling at 2000-2100 fps
So first doe was a small deer of the year. Shot about 75 yds. She was in front of brush angling away. I hot here in stomach and exited behind lung on opposite side. She ran about 50 yds where i found her still alive but not able to get up, a little blood on her nose. I was able to walk up and finish her with a knife. Couple of hours later a large doe comes by. I hit her dead broadside thru the lungs at 25 yds away. She ran away with tail down and stopped about 100 yds away, stood there and then fell over. No heart, just double lung. Not impressed at all, the barnes tmz has preformed far better. Going to give it a go again tomorrow see if I can get better results, but unless something changes drastically, these do not look like a winner in muzzleloader. I am quite surprised.

Brent....
Yeah, does not sound like you are getting that trauma normally associated with this. Velocity? Maybe....

What was the reason we did not mess with the 250 Socom?

Too bad we had that issue and could not test this the other day, we would know what was going on with it!

Question! Can you drop to .451-.452 with this? If you can, maybe look at those copper raptors for the handguns for this muzzle stuffing thing? I wish someone would bust a deer with this 150 gr bullet! Low Shear on these are 800 fps.....

Again, we might could have tried that when you were here had we not had that little issue!...

M

Posted a report down in Double Rifles on a doe whitetail I shot this morning with my Heym 577 and a 600 grain CEB Safari Raptor tipped. No tracking required.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
So today i finally was able to get the drop on a couple of whitetail doe with the muzzleloader. I have been wanting to try 458 CEB bullets. The bloody things are finicky. Anyway i got a 295 raptor to fly ok, not near as tight as barnes, but i also have not worked with the CEB as much. I guess it is traveling at 2000-2100 fps
So first doe was a small deer of the year. Shot about 75 yds. She was in front of brush angling away. I hot here in stomach and exited behind lung on opposite side. She ran about 50 yds where i found her still alive but not able to get up, a little blood on her nose. I was able to walk up and finish her with a knife. Couple of hours later a large doe comes by. I hit her dead broadside thru the lungs at 25 yds away. She ran away with tail down and stopped about 100 yds away, stood there and then fell over. No heart, just double lung. Not impressed at all, the barnes tmz has preformed far better. Going to give it a go again tomorrow see if I can get better results, but unless something changes drastically, these do not look like a winner in muzzleloader. I am quite surprised.

Needed to edit this do lack of reading!

I am extremly surprised at this out come since we have seen great performance out of the 200 grain .429 Raptors as well as the 240 .452 raptors.

Were these the brass raptors? Do you know the exact velocity?

Did you use a tip?

This is FYI on the copper raptor pistol bullets, .429-.50

There is a chance you can crimped the the nose of the bullet which prevented expansion, We noticed this with the the .429's in testing and have made tips which solve this problem along with a jag to match, the jags are not in production just yet.

These bullets are not delicate, but care needs to be taken when loading them in a muzzleloader with out a tip. We had two deer bang flop with the 200 grains at 136 yards out of a muzzloading pistol,

Didn't Boomie post a couple of years ago that Dan was working on a muzzle loader bullet?

Nice hunt Sam - DRTs are always good regardless of the caliber used. LOL...

Yes the muzzle loader is in the werks but still needs some twerks in the R&D stage. CEB wants to be the best and leave the ordinary to the rest.

quote:

I guess it is traveling at 2000-2100 fps

With black powder??? Closer to 1400 fps, @ the muzzle.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

I guess it is traveling at 2000-2100 fps

With black powder??? Closer to 1400 fps, @ the muzzle.

Keith

I say it depends on the powder. I am getting 1650 out of 54 with a 420 grain slug, the .429 200 grain raptors out of the muzzleloading pistol were going over 1700 with Blackhorn 209

quote:

There is a chance you can crimped the the nose of the bullet which prevented expansion, We noticed this with the the .429's in testing and have made tips which solve this problem along with a jag to match, the jags are not in production just yet.

Seasons, you might be correct on this, not sure on a muzzle stuffer.... However, I have had some extremely compressed loads, in which the cavity also folding in on itself, I could not even get a tip in the bullet! This could have an effect on terminals??

Brent brought his front stuffing thing here, but we had technical difficulties and were not able to test. Its a 50 caliber something or other, and he is using some sort of other powder, not pure black powder, and his velocity is probably close to correct.

What I know about one of these things you can put on the sharp end of a pencil, and I intend for it to stay that way, but I think I have heard others using .451-.452 in these things, and since these bullets are designed to shear at very low impacts, I think maybe these copper handgun bullets might be the ticket??? For some reason, I can't recall what, we did not consider, or ruled out the 250 Socom as well?????

Anyway.........

M

I have a Savage ML II that I shoot Reloader 7 56 gr. a Hornady .451 225 gr. flex tip in a MMP black sabot 2335 fps. The Hornady is like a bomb at that velocity.

It would be great if CEB would make a tipped 200 gr. bullet. I think any heavier bullet would be to long to work in a sabot.

A idea that I have is to cut barrel to 19", use the cut off piece to make a die for a press and push a CEB brass bullet base first. The bullet would be pre engraved to ease of loading.