Good, Jim.
Maybe this was just an omission. Surely Barnes would have got enough orders for FN bullets to inform them that there's a possible growing demand for them. I would hope that they listen to their customers, other than those who might be making inferior rifles.

The reason for knock off flat nose barnes banded solids would be if your bolt rifle feeds them well already and you already have loads for them. There will be a void to be filled for the flat nose users but I like the BBW 13 Better but not every barnes user knows about them yet.

New Banded Solids for 2011:

Caliber Weight Description
.338 Cal 250-grain Banded Solid Round Nose
9.3MM 250-grain Banded Solid Round Nose
9.3MM 286-grain Banded Solid Round Nose
.375 Cal 270-grain Banded Solid Round Nose
.375 Cal 300-grain Banded Solid Round Nose
.375 Cal 350-grain Banded Solid Round Nose
.416 Cal 350-grain Banded Solid Round Nose
.416 Cal 400-grain Banded Solid Round Nose
.422″ (404 JEFF) 400-grain Banded Solid Round Nose
.458 Cal 450-grain Banded Solid Round Nose
.458 Cal 500-grain Banded Solid Round Nose
.504″ (505 GIBBS) 525-grain Banded Solid Round Nose
.510″ (500 JEFF) 535-grain Banded Solid Round Nose



I don't know. My source was told by a Barnes Rep that the Flat Nose was being discontinued because of feeding complaints. New for 2011 you see above. Possible they are selling out stock until that is gone? I see no mention of discontinued---nor do I see where they will offer both. Maybe Jim will get an answer via email.


On the barnes banded solid page this is what they have to say about the flat nose;

Multiple bands, or rings, cut into the shank of Barnes Banded Solids relieve pressure and virtually eliminate fouling. New nose design tracks straighter through dense muscle and bone.

So who knows. If they do not discontinue the Flat Nose Solid---I must "Eat Crow"--and of course I will! We will see?

Michael

RIP

In case you are lurking! I am thinking of stocking some of the new M70s for conversions to B&Ms! I have not yet laid hands on one of the SC rifles! Yes, I know it's a shame, I am right here and all. Just have not had occasion to do so.

Since you have a 458 B&M on a new M70--Well, what's the scoop? I hear good and bad about the trigger? Brian has not said, of course I have not asked either???

So just wondering, it's easier for me to lay in some new rifles in stock than to shop around for New Haven guns, especially if I want to build 5-10 rifles at a time.

M

O.K. guys,
It only took a 45 second phone call to verify Barnes is discontinuing their flat nose solids.
They told me there is probably a year's supply left (I don't know which calibers since I don't plan on buying any). They are keeping their machinery and possibly will do special orders in the future.

quote:

O.K. guys,
It only took a 45 second phone call to verify Barnes is discontinuing their flat nose solids.
They told me there is probably a year's supply left (I don't know which calibers since I don't plan on buying any). They are keeping their machinery and possibly will do special orders in the future.

Amazing! I guess Barnes doesn't listen to their customers after all!

It doesn't take a math whiz to figure out this formula:

Special orders = more $$$ + longer waits

So I would say screw 'em!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
RIP

In case you are lurking! I am thinking of stocking some of the new M70s for conversions to B&Ms! I have not yet laid hands on one of the SC rifles! Yes, I know it's a shame, I am right here and all. Just have not had occasion to do so.

Since you have a 458 B&M on a new M70--Well, what's the scoop? I hear good and bad about the trigger? Brian has not said, of course I have not asked either???

So just wondering, it's easier for me to lay in some new rifles in stock than to shop around for New Haven guns, especially if I want to build 5-10 rifles at a time.

M

Doc M,
I used the CT gun for the .458 B&M, precisely because I like the old M70 trigger best.
How could a mechanically more complicated new trigger on the SC guns be better?
However, it may well be just as good a trigger.
Time will tell. Came from the factory with a no-creep break at 4.5-pound pull weight.

One selling point for the new M70 from SC is the B&C glass-graphite-Kevlar stock with full aluminum endoskeleton. It is a beauty at 2 pounds.

I shoveled snow again today, 6 inches fell last night, down south here in KY. How about that global warming?
I promise to use those bullets you have supplied me with to wring out the .458 B&M as soon as I get a break for the range ... then I am going to try the 300 WSM SC rifle ... then I am going to load some 425-grain and 480-grain cast boolits I make for the .50-70 Govt. ... in my Sharps carbine ...

I coud put a 4x-16X Schmidt&Bender P&M scope on the .458 B&M, but that scope is almost as heavy and long as the rifle.

.458 B&M with 1.75# Ultimate Shadow stock, 6#12oz dry weight, 7#14oz with scope and rings shown, 19.5" barrel of 1:10" TWIST!!!, No.4 Sporter from PAC-NOR:



.458 B&M in old tupperware stock from CT,
and above it in pic below is the new SC rifle with Kevlar/full aluminum bedding block:

Well there you go boys, Barnes is out of the hi performance solid business and has now reverted back to turn of the century performance! How do you like that? I reckon there will be no crow on my menu today! So I stand firm on my earlier post yesterday!

Barnes Who????

Whatever they have on the market can be replaced with folks who actually care about bullet performance! Screw'em!


Now, more important things! RIP, ok, I remember now, you did use a good old M70 for the 458. Like I said I want to build some rifles this year, and it's just more simple for me to get new guns instead of hunting and pecking for New Haven guns on gunbroker. I want to build some really nice guns with excellent AI wood, problem is they are not cheap when you add the wood, and then I don't want to sell them and hoard them for myself!!!! ALL OF THEM!!!!!! HEH-----I still have the two SUPER 500 MDMs, have one out right now, and still want to keep it, keep both of them! JHC what do I do with 5 500 MDMs???? I already have 3!

Anyway............I might see what Brian thinks, the new trigger is in question with me as well!

I tell you I would not be getting any shooting in at all if it were not for the indoor range. It's been ugly weather here for the last 2 months! Rain, cold, Alaska weather. Yes, I too want to know where this global warming crap is--where is Al Gore???

As for the scope, that's what I keep telling these 30mm guys, scopes are bigger than the rifles!

HEH

Michael

Barnes WHO???

Very very easy to replace Barnes!




There you go, Barnes Replaced! Easy as that! They don't wish to be in the Big Bore solid performance game--These guys do, and with a superior product to start off with! End Of Story!


Now, how about some performance!

I mentioned the other day about the Mighty 500 MDM and that 375 gr North Fork Cup Point--Expanding Cup Point that is, going to a whopping 2917 fps! I was playing on the range a bit yesterday and just had to see if I COULD. Could What? Break 3000 fps in an 8.5 lb 21 inch Win M70 500 MDM! And if I did, how would that perform?

Here is the answer to that;



This was done safely as well of course. The other day I left off at 112 gr of RL 10X at 2917 fps and 59058 psi. Yesterday I started at 113, to 114 and then to hell with it, to 116 grs skipping 115 to come to 3018 fps average and 62513 PSI. Case study agrees, no issues, no sticky cases, no heavy bolt, slick as can be!

Just FYI and curious is all.

Later I will look for the other tests with the .500 Cup Points and post them again for comparisons.

This 375 was designed for the 50 B&M Super Short. Which I did test at 2100 or so in it. I think I must get a strain gage back on the super short and see where I can take this bullet in it. I think this will put the super short into "Buffalo Territory" for sure!

Michael

Oh and so's you don't forget, this is the 500 MDM and the 50 B&M compared to a standard 24 inch Win M70 458 Lott.




This photo needs to be updated--500 MDM 500 CEB BBW #13 2600 fps 450 North Fork CPS/FPS 2748 fps and now 375 North Fork CPS at 3000 fps!

quote:

mentioned the other day about the Mighty 500 MDM and that 375 gr North Fork Cup Point--Expanding Cup Point that is, going to a whopping 2917 fps! I was playing on the range a bit yesterday and just had to see if I COULD. Could What? Break 3000 fps in an 8.5 lb 21 inch Win M70 500 MDM!

Damn! Who said big bores had to be slow!

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:

quote:

mentioned the other day about the Mighty 500 MDM and that 375 gr North Fork Cup Point--Expanding Cup Point that is, going to a whopping 2917 fps! I was playing on the range a bit yesterday and just had to see if I COULD. Could What? Break 3000 fps in an 8.5 lb 21 inch Win M70 500 MDM!

Damn! Who said big bores had to be slow!

Who said you had to have long barrels for high velocity!

quote:

Who said you had to have long barrels for high velocity! rotflmo

That's the truth! I'd almost forgotten about Michael's Model 70 Megacarbines!
Dr M just keeps rewriting the rulebook. Deep penetrating NonCons, short barrel high velocity rifles, what have I left out?

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:

quote:

Who said you had to have long barrels for high velocity!

That's the truth! I'd almost forgotten about Michael's Model 70 Megacarbines!
Dr M just keeps rewriting the rulebook. Deep penetrating NonCons, short barrel high velocity rifles, what have I left out?

Most definately Michael's Model 70 Megacarbines - short, lightweight, and extremely deadly!

I got tired of the GD rule book, through it in the trash and started over! WHY????? Because I got to damned lazy to carry a 12 lb, 4 foot long beast of a rifle to do what I needed. Since it had to be a Winchester, I had to figure the biggest cartridge and bullet combo I could fit on a Winchester, which was the current .500 calibers, somewhat short of proper bullets a few years ago to accomplish the mission I had for them. So that would lead me down the path to find a better bullet as well! You see, all things are connected in one way or the other!

Now, whilst the mighty 500 MDM does have plenty of juice, it's just not needed thank goodness! I have settled on the loads I will be taking on my next trip with it for the CEB and North Fork workout trials! I will be taking to the field in the 500 MDM the following;

500 CEB BBW #13 Solid--96/RL 10X--2481 fps at 59372 PSI

460 CEB BBW #13 NonCon--98/RL 10X--2532 fps at 57232 PSI

450 North Fork CPS--98/RL 10X---2574 fps at 54766 PSI

450 North Fork FPS--94/RL 10X--2504 fps at 54870 PSI

And if I can get the right POI with the 375 North Fork CPS I will take some of those as well at 2800 fps, which is a damned plenty!

For the 50 B&M I am looking at the following;

500 CEB BBW#13 Solid--66/IMR 4198---2137 fps at 59241 PSI

460 CEB BBW#13 NonCon--69/IMR 4198---2255 fps at 61152 PSI

450 North Fork CPS---73/IMR 4198---2342 fps at 62277 PSI

450 North Fork FPS---73/IMR 4198--2327 fps at 61571 PSI

Going to also see what POI is for that Copper CEB BBW#13 395 gr NonCon at 2421 fps and the 375 North Fork CPS at 2465 fps is, and take some of those as well.

Just hope I can get enough critters on quota to do the test work on? Have 5 cow buff for sure now, waiting on some other issues for some bulls. Hopefully our very own Kwan might come through with a few bulls to add to this, and maybe some others crop up before June! I would like a few bulls with the 500 MDM if possible! Well, that's going to be this years load out for me, I would love to take along a 458 B&M as well, but that's going to have to wait.

Michael

For your information in case anyone's interested:

A guy named Ryan, that I spoke with a few days ago at Barnes, verified that those listed as RN Banded Solids will in the future become RNs.

However, there will be some exceptions: the 330 (SOCOM) will stay a flat point, along with those for doubles: 470 NE 500gr; .500 NE 570gr and .577 NE 750gr.

Ryan was stepping in for Ty who was at the Shot Show, and going on to SCI. Ryan works in the testing and development area. And he confirmed that the main issue has to do with feeding problems of the FP in (bolt guns), so to obviate litigation potential they're changing to RNs for all except for those mentioned above.

Of course, the story may change next week...

I do like the 330 BB in my single-shot .45-70s.


Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Barnes

Another American Company making the deliberate decision to put themselves out of business.

Adios!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Barnes

Another American Company making the deliberate decision to put themselves out of business.

Adios!

I doubt that... not with the TSXs and TTSXs still around.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Barnes

Another American Company making the deliberate decision to put themselves out of business.

Adios!

I doubt that... not with the TSXs and TTSXs still around.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Liability is everywhere you wanna see it in business. Bet money, counsel at Barnes new parent sent word down the line to eliminate any product with claims pending or historical. Pretty soon they'll be selling Nerf Bullets and Water Guns.

That sucks the first time I saw a FN Barnes banded solid was in 2008 and since then seen a couple on hunts from then used on bigger stuff and they performed really well.

Why couldnt they just make two lines one RN and FN ???

And let the guys decide what they want when they buy it.

quote:

Liability is everywhere you wanna see it in business. Bet money, counsel at Barnes new parent sent word down the line to eliminate any product with claims pending or historical. Pretty soon they'll be selling Nerf Bullets and Water Guns.

Agreed. Sadly our free market economy is becoming less and less free.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari-Hunt:
That sucks the first time I saw a FN Barnes banded solid was in 2008 and since then seen a couple on hunts from then used on bigger stuff and they performed really well.

Why couldnt they just make two lines one RN and FN ???

And let the guys decide what they want when they buy it.

+1

[QUOTE]Originally posted by .458 Only:
For your information in case anyone's interested:

A guy named Ryan, that I spoke with a few days ago at Barnes, verified that those listed as RN Banded Solids will in the future become RNs.

However, there will be some exceptions: the 330 (SOCOM) will stay a flat point, along with those for doubles: 470 NE 500gr; .500 NE 570gr and .577 NE 750gr.

Ryan was stepping in for Ty who was at the Shot Show, and going on to SCI. Ryan works in the testing and development area. And he confirmed that the main issue has to do with feeding problems of the FP in (bolt guns), so to obviate litigation potential they're changing to RNs for all except for those mentioned above.

Of course, the story may change next week...

I do like the 330 BB in my single-shot .45-70s.


Bob



Thanks Bob, that tells us a little more in the story. The 330 is an excellent bullet, and tailor made for my 458 B&M Super Short as well. I have a decent supply of those. Di Ryan (being a test guy) mention performance by any chance? How about the test procedures? Curious.

MacJ

Yeah, I think Bob is right, outside this thread and a few other places most amateurs are not aware of performance of solids and how it really works. And enough TSX and other to not even make a dent in what they do overall. I view them now as a traitorous bunch to performance, so I am going to have a very difficult time using them, testing them, or even saying the name! But like I said, they don't have anything on the market that can't be very easy replaced. I will replace that 330 BB with a 325 CEB #13, match it with a NonCon--and the 325 North Fork CPS and be done with the big "B". But what I do the big "B" don't care anyway. But I do!

Frederick

I have used the "B" a bunch of times, nearly every hunt I have been on since 2005 unless it was a .500. Which I have used the .500s more than anything the last 5 yrs. If they wanted they could offer both, but appears they are not so interested.

Just replace them, might be a little harder for you however, considering your location.

Buffalo

#13s end of story!

M

quote:

Buffalo

#13s end of story!

M

No doubt Doc M...

Just hope that CEB will be able to export in the future, otherwise I have to rely on my US buddies to be able to buy those BBW#13 bullets.. Especially in +.500" caliber cause you have some stupid export limitations on bullets from .500" and upwards..

Ulrik

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
Request for those doing field tests on buffalo this coming year.

Should the opportunity occur, I ask that someone try a neck spinal shot - the buffalo in a frontal position with the head up facing the shooter - using a noncon (first shot). The shot should be placed on the body middle about 6 (six) inches below the bottom of the chin.

Michael458

See above request.

IBT

Gees IBT! Getting a little picky eh, on the shot placement! I just kinda pick spot in the middle and let one fly, how bout that? Hoping he ain't eating grass with his chin in the dirt, oh, wait, I see you said "Head High", ummmm, might have to cipher this one out!

HEH HEH!!!!!

Good show--I'll see what I can do about that!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Buffalo

#13s end of story!

M

No doubt Doc M...

Just hope that CEB will be able to export in the future, otherwise I have to rely on my US buddies to be able to buy those BBW#13 bullets.. Especially in +.500" caliber cause you have some stupid export limitations on bullets from .500" and upwards..

Ulrik

We have been talking about the export license on such things, and it's a little hateful. However, I think there is the strong possibility that a new chap is coming on the scene soon with an EXPORT license and may be able to handle some of these matters in the very near future!

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Gees IBT! Getting a little picky eh, on the shot placement! I just kinda pick spot in the middle and let one fly, how bout that? Hoping he ain't eating grass with his chin in the dirt, oh, wait, I see you said "Head High", ummmm, might have to cipher this one out!

HEH HEH!!!!!

Good show--I'll see what I can do about that!

Michael

Many thanks

Not really a blind request. There's a story by a "respected" author that a minister in Africa kept his mission fed with that shot. Apparently minister got close, made a noise and when the buff looked up, the minister got him with that shot using 9.3. The Perfect Shot book also presents that shot as a possibility. Seems to me a noncom has a wonderful chance of doing a lot of damage in that area where there's a bunch of things like veins and arteries and nerves coming together.

IBT

IBT

Oh I know it's not a blind request. It's a good shot to be sure, I know I have taken it on lesser animals and hammered them. I can't specifically recall doing it on a buffalo at present?

I would trust a NonCon to hammer one with that shot, no doubt.

M

So can you import bullets that are .500 or do they have to be .499 and under?

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Buffalo

#13s end of story!

M

No doubt Doc M...

Just hope that CEB will be able to export in the future, otherwise I have to rely on my US buddies to be able to buy those BBW#13 bullets.. Especially in +.500" caliber cause you have some stupid export limitations on bullets from .500" and upwards..

Ulrik

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
So can you import bullets that are .500 or do they have to be .499 and under?

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Buffalo

#13s end of story!

M

No doubt Doc M...

Just hope that CEB will be able to export in the future, otherwise I have to rely on my US buddies to be able to buy those BBW#13 bullets.. Especially in +.500" caliber cause you have some stupid export limitations on bullets from .500" and upwards..

Ulrik

Huh?? What rule are you referring to?

Too bad about the flat-nose BBS - fed fine in my GMA-action, AHR-built 600 Overkill and equally well in my dad's CZ-action, AHR-built 585AHR.
Both worked well in the two Cape buffalo we shot.

I wonder if I should stock up on them.

I do have about a million of Macifej's masterpieces in .620 and they feed slick as can be (OK maybe about 300 minus the one I used on a Cape buffalo and the handfuls I gave away to people to try out).

Of course someday old miserMike458 might come through with the CEB #13 in manly-man calibers but I ain't holdin' my breath.

quote:

I do have about a million of Macifej's masterpieces in .620 and they feed slick as can be tu2(OK maybe about 300 minus the one I used on a Cape buffalo and the handfuls I gave away to people to try out).

HEY HEY---I don't remember getting a MacJ bullet in .620???? Where is mine?

OK, maybe a little trading is in order here! You NEVER mentioned having an Agent MacJ .620? Not once! I think maybe I can come up with a .620 CEB #13---but it comes at a price! I must have a Agent MacJ .620!

There is something about BIG GLEAMING bullets, I simply can't resist! I must admit, some of these bullets I am getting for you guys, maybe I have a few more than I really let on about, something like, hoarding, maybe squirreling a few away for hard times, oR MAYBE I JUST GET NAKED AND ROLL IN THEM........................................



M

I'll be happy to share in the wealth ... just please don't tell me you are going to roll around naked in a pile of them!

How many would you like?

Probably old news to you guys, but after emailing Gerard and getting a response within 30 minutes, there is soon to be a "new" player on the block. I say "new", because their bullets have been around for awhile but getting them has been cost prohibitive. Gerard stated they are in the final phase of documentation to build a mfg operation in the U.S. Personally I can't wait! Bring on the HV!

REMINGTON...ARE YA'LL PAYING ATTENTION?

I would also like to see a 265-270gr.375CPS from North Fork.

Which brings me to question. I may be getting in way over my head with this question because I can just see the technical answers from the stratosphere, but just how do bullet manufacturers decide on what bullet weight is optimum? Some of the factors involve bearing surface, pressures generated, useful velocities, marketing, performance on game, fouling, accuracy just to name a few. I really don't know how they are all linked, but must be related somehow. Anyone care to help me understand in simple terms I can comprehend?

quote:

Probably old news to you guys, but after emailing Gerard and getting a response within 30 minutes, there is soon to be a "new" player on the block. I say "new", because their bullets have been around for awhile but getting them has been cost prohibitive. Gerard stated they are in the final phase of documentation to build a mfg operation in the U.S. Personally I can't wait! Bring on the HV!

GS Custom in the US would solve my problems. If they put a plastic tip on the HV, great. If not, they still have a 370 grain flat nose in 416 that can probably be loaded to same velocity and impact as a 350 TTSX (the new tipped one from the unmentionable company).

quote:

REMINGTON...ARE YA'LL PAYING ATTENTION?

So was Remington the rifle manufacturer that Barnes was accomodating with their inane decision to drop FN solids? From what I've been hearing about Remington over the last few years, this wouldn't surprise me.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:


I'll be happy to share in the wealth ... just please don't tell me you are going to roll around naked in a pile of them!

How many would you like?

I can only roll naked if you send a lot of them. No, just a couple would be great. But can wait until we do the other test with the Sabatti and the .409s.

M

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
GS Custom in the US would solve my problems. If they put a plastic tip on the HV, great. If not, they still have a 370 grain flat nose in 416 that can probably be loaded to same velocity and impact as a 350 TTSX (the new tipped one from the unmentionable company).

HEH......the "unmentionable company"

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
So can you import bullets that are .500 or do they have to be .499 and under?

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Buffalo

#13s end of story!

M

No doubt Doc M...

Just hope that CEB will be able to export in the future, otherwise I have to rely on my US buddies to be able to buy those BBW#13 bullets.. Especially in +.500" caliber cause you have some stupid export limitations on bullets from .500" and upwards..

Ulrik

Huh?? What rule are you referring to?

Well dont know, but Midwaydenmark told me that they were unable to import bullets from .500" and up from the US.. Some months ago (before the BBW#13 were born) I tried to order some .510" and some .585" BBS from Midway. But it was not possible they told me - because of US export laws..