quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
GREAT! Although I plan on using the 577NE on my hunt in 5 weeks, I'm using the 9.3X74R as a scoped backup gun just in case. I just received, yesterday, what I thought was to be my final CEB shipment of bullets prior to the hunt. 9.3 Non-Cons of the 6 petal design but with tips! I can't keep up! Guess I'll need some new 3 petal units prior to leaving. Maybe I'll just stick to solids if forced to the 9.3.

Perhaps work up your loading with the 6-petal NonCons while requesting expedited delivery of a few boxes of 3-petal NonCons. The Talon Tips are the same and your POA/POI should be the same. If buff is your smallest game the take the 3-petal NonCons for your 9.3; if non-DG are also on the list then mix the 3-petal and 6-petal #s accordingly.

Cappy:

Three petals. Six petals. Three band. Four band. Tips. No tips. Good heavens. I think a 9,3 with a 280 BBW#13 in each barrel would be just the ticket for buff but if you want a "soft" for the first shot, why not just use a 286 grain North Fork, Woodleigh, or Nosler to go with your 280 grain BBW#13 and be done with it? At 9,3 velocities, those bullets will all perform perfectly. We are "over thinking" this stuff.

Would not a tipped 3 blade non con be better on a buff in a 9,3x74 or 375 flanged than a solid?
Maximize impact velocity and damage. These hollow point brass bullets love velocity.

All this repeated blather about medium calibers (9.3 & 375) for Buffalo bores me to tears. How many times does this need to be reviewed? As I have said before...

If you are satisfied with a "minimum" or "adequate" caliber for Buff then that's your choice. A .416 will do anything a .375 will, but will do it better.

Personally, I will always opt for something more. I killed my first Ele bull with a .375H&H and immediately started looking for a bigger rifle. I've never shot a buff with less than a .416 and the rest of my Ele have been killed with a .458.

Michael - perhaps you should again post the Buff heart shot by Beau with a .416Rem NonCon last month.

Michael has come to the rescue and we have it sorted out at this point. Thanks Michael. As much as anything, I was just taking the opportunity to bitch!

Dave, the issue with going to a NF at this point is I don't have time to start over with that rifle. Remember the problem I had finding a load that would shoot to regulation with the scope? Yeah, I know your next comment! Take the scope off, it doesn't belong on a DR anyway, right?!! But remember, I have this gun as a back up and light rifle to my big boomer. My interest right now is to do some Double/Double safaris.

If I end up needing the 9.3 on a buff, I'll probably load a NC and Solid in each barrel. If I need more than those two rounds, hopefully I'll have the chance to switch back to the big gun.

Quarter million views served. That's a lot of myth busting education.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
All this repeated blather about medium calibers (9.3 & 375) for Buffalo bores me to tears. How many times does this need to be reviewed? As I have said before...

If you are satisfied with a "minimum" or "adequate" caliber for Buff then that's your choice. A .416 will do anything a .375 will, but will do it better.

Personally, I will always opt for something more. I killed my first Ele bull with a .375H&H and immediately started looking for a bigger rifle. I've never shot a buff with less than a .416 and the rest of my Ele have been killed with a .458.

Michael - perhaps you should again post the Buff heart shot by Beau with a .416Rem NonCon last month.

Mike,

I agree with you 100%. The 9.3 in this case is a plains game rifle with the potential for back up duty only. Otherwise, I wouldn't consider it beyond shooting "rats" as Michael puts it!!

Todd,

You are going well armed and I would expect no problems with your rifles nor your loads. I know you consider your 9.3 only as a back-up for Buff and Ele. Your 577 NE will handle the big boys just fine. And you are right not to mess with your loads at this point!

I expect my next Buff & Ele will fall to a 500 NE, a favorite DR caliber of mine.

Keep well.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:


I expect my next Buff & Ele will fall to a 500 NE, a favorite DR caliber of mine.

A favorite of mine as well. Caliber and rifle!!

I knew that I could wake up this crowd!!!!!

Gees, been running my ass off today, and can't get caught up. Believe it or not, I actually do have a real job.

OK you guys have run on with the 9.3/375 thing more than I can even comment on, or even care to. Ya'll know by now what I think when it comes to buffalo! I love buffalo, I think about buffalo all the time. When I think about bullets--I think about shooting buffalo and how that bullet will do on buffalo in given caliber. My personal recommendation to anyone that wants to listen when it comes to buffalo--MINIMUM 416 caliber and me personally I'd rather start with .458 and go UP. Bullets? Is there anything besides a BBW#13 of whatever sort and North Forks? Does anyone need more than that? I think those will do, they will for me.

Now anything other than buffalo--my 9.3 B&M put things in the dirt like they were struck down from heaven, plains game and such. First time in my life I ever took the 9.3 to the field in April. I can't remember everything, but 3 zebras, 2 wildebeast, 2 hartebeast, assortment of impala, blesbok, and maybe even something else, but they were hammered, and better than any medium like 358 or 338 I had ever used on the same type animals. Little 210 Gr ESP Raptor 2950 fps in that little 19 inch gun of mine. So for such as this, excellent, buffalo--different story. But, we all know that already!

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by LionHunter:

I expect my next Buff & Ele will fall to a 500 NE, a favorite DR caliber of mine.

A favorite of mine as well. Caliber and rifle!!

According to what Sam and I witnessed you would be just as well off with a 50 B&M Super Short!


CHeaper too--don't weigh but 6.25 lbs, 36 inches total length! Slams hell outta buffalo too!


500 Nitro as a cartridge has always been about the perfect caliber/cartridge/velocity combo that always impressed me, until I did my various .500s on the Winchesters. My goals were to strive to be as effective on the animals I wanted to take as the 500 Nitro would be, with proper bullets. I achieved that goal and went beyond it. But, could not get there without proper bullet design, and "Over Thinking" it! And I am still at it too!!!!!

Dave, I know you don't understand or like the concept of the NonCons, and that is and always has been dandy with me, it's a hard concept to grasp no doubt. As for me personally, it's no skin off my ass one way or the other. But, since you have yet to see one in action, on animal tissue, then maybe you really should try one on something sometime? See for yourself! I have shot a lot of animals in my days afield, with many of the very best of bullets in many different calibers. I have gone to the field with Swift, Woodleighs, and Barnes many many many times. I have gone to the field with Hornady, Sierra, Speers, Noslers, Cast Performance, Oregon Trail, Kodiaks, Lehighs, Remingtons, Winchesters, and probably some more I just can't think of right now. I have studied internals, saw lot's of guts and such! LOL...... Spilled a lot of blood on the ground! The common catch phrase from everyone, including myself is this "I have never seen anything like that in my life". Now this is not coming from Joe down the street that shot one whitetail 10 yrs ago! This is coming from very experienced PHs, experienced shooters, hunters, you name it, that have seen literally 1000s of shots, does not matter, all the same story, "I never seen anything like this before" or similar to that statement.

So here is my deal to YOU---Pick out something you want to go hunt in the near future, I don't care what it is, deer is fine if you want, pick a caliber I deal with, and I will send some bullets to you for this adventure, no charge, no worries, just try them ONE TIME. One time only! If you don't like what you see, you ain't out nothing! Hell, if you do like it, then you don't even have to admit it in public, you can just tell me that is all, and I will even keep your secret safe, rest assured! You and I are pals as far as I am concerned, and it will remain that way too, but, if you don't try this one time, --------------------------------! 9/7/12-I have amended the end of this statement-It was an ugly thing for me to say-I am ashamed of myself-and too ashamed for it to remain seen!
LOL........


Michael

253 pages, 10103 posts, 250'074 Views!


Are we having fun yet?

Michael does not just want to kill the buff but have them flip over, blood spewing drop on the spot. The 9,3 and 375 rack up some good numbers but some like to hammer them without chasing them.
So since no animal seems to run more than 50 yards with a non con or raptor in a decent shot I figured out that if hunting DG just know where the 50 yard line is

quote:

Michael does not just want to kill the buff but have them flip over, blood spewing drop on the spot.

Works for me!

Reminders;

Buffalo Heart from 500 MDM 460 BBW#13 NonCon 2400 fps--This is cleaved in half--bad photo was taken in the dark in the shed.





Buffalo heart, frontal shot, 420 BBW#13 NonCon 458 B&M 2250 fps.



Top of a crocodiles head after he ran into a 420 BBW#13 NonCon from that same 458 B&M



Eland



Others










Hmmmmmm!
M

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:


I expect my next Buff & Ele will fall to a 500 NE, a favorite DR caliber of mine.

Michael,

No doubt in my mind about the 50B&M Super Short, and I may end up with one some day. But I have always had an urge to hunt Ele with a DR in 500NE; even tried the Sabatti (x2) in that caliber (before returning them). Would need BBW#13s, of course.

BTW, nothing could drop an Ele more effectively than my 458B&M shooting the BBW#13 450gr solid did last month! One shot to the CNS and the fight was over!

Holy Moly - impressive photos

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
253 pages, 10103 posts, 250'074 Views!


Are we having fun yet?

Oh yeah!!! And only in 34 months...

quote:

Originally posted by PD999:
Holy Moly - impressive photos

Lots of impressive information backed by photographs throughout this thread. If you've not read from page 1 to present you should do so.

How many blades on that .620 NonCon? Is it suitable for anything bigger than jackrabbits?

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
How many blades on that .620 NonCon? Is it suitable for anything bigger than jackrabbits?

Andy

I don't know man, I suppose it depends on just how big that jack is? Some really big ones, you might be a little "UnderGunned"----

Let me clue you guys in a bit, a little history on the BBW#13 NonCons!

Originally, there was not going to be any NonCons except for the bigger bores. These bullets were designed Very Very Specifically FOR BUFFALO! From 416 to .510 caliber. There were not going to be any others. Once the BBW#13 Solids were perfected, with all the tweaks, adjustments, and improvements, the #13 NonCons were the "First Strike" Buffalo bullets. With absolutely no intentions of them going any further than that.

The damned things proved so successful in how they worked, trauma inflicted, penetration achieved they naturally migrated into what is now a Vast amount of bullets, in every caliber, Raptors, Lever Gun designed, short nose for tips in bolts, the tips themselves, and so on. We now have #13 NonCons from .224 caliber up to .620 caliber, in several configurations to meet that calibers and specific cartridges within that calibers needs. I have never and I don't think there ever has been such a vast array of bullets put together in this amount of time in history. You see the catalog--that is a lot of bullet design. A hell of a project! And, if you have paid attention to this thread, you have watched it every single step of the way, the ups, downs, failures, and the successes, all right here. Most questions answered, right here.

Once and awhile, now that I have a bit more time on my hands since terminals are not an everyday affair, then I answer a few more questions that comes to my mind.

One of these questions concerns this, "To Tip or Not".

There are obvious situations to adding the tip and it has EVERY ADVANTAGE and zero downside or compromise. Double Rifles #1 on that list. Shoot a double rifle with BBW#13 NonCons, put that tip in, it makes a world of difference at Impact Velocity, no matter what the range, 10 yds or 50 yds. Same with a Single shot rifle as well.

We run into tip issues with bolt guns, limited by magazine. Someone here is pretty damned smart! Since this bullet tech enhances all cartridges, we have carried over to the Lever Guns. Lever guns have to have the bands moved forward, and short noses, to run through the limited length actions available. This short nose, band forward design is conducive also to using that same bullet, seated deep for bolt gun cartridges, add the tip, and fits the magazine. Dual use bullets, lever gun or bolt gun. In this capacity the Big Bore Raptors are designed for this as well.

Compromise????

Yes, unfortunately sometimes there is a compromise, and we as shooters/hunters live with compromise in everything we do or choose. It is in some way, a compromise of some sort.

Big Bore Raptors! We all know, I don't care much for the big bore Raptors, and some of that is because of the B&M cartridges. Short and too much case capacity is removed with them by using a Raptor. Also by design, seating the BBW#13 Solid end down in the case, it tends to push powder to the side when compressed, not straight down like a flat base does. This action limits case capacity even more, as the case tends to bulge, and this causes chambering issues. Compromise? If you want the Raptor, then you will compromise a few more grains of Case Capacity because of the bulging issue.

Flat Base Lever Gun Bullets! These bullets also are seated deep by necessity to work through lever gun actions. They too take up case capacity, but with this bullet you can compress more powder because it compresses straight down, not to the side. Still, you can only do so much before running into those same bulging issues, or pressure issues, depending on the powder of course. This makes a dandy bullet to use as a deep seated NonCon for use with tips, and fit the magazines of bolts.

Standard BBW#13 with a Long Nose Projection! These have the bands more to the rear, longer nose projection from .600 to .700 out of the case. You increase Case Capacity greatly, reducing pressures and gain much more muzzle velocity. But, you cannot use this bullet tipped, and it still fit in the magazine, too long. One can take this bullet, add a tip, single load it up front and back it up with standard NonCons or solids in the magazine.

With these things in mind, my question was this;

What gives the highest "Impact Velocity" at 50 yards? Tipped Lever Gun Bullet, starting out at lower velocity, Standard NonCon starting out at much higher velocity, but no tip?????

Well, we just happen to have two bullets to do this with. Both .458 Caliber, both 295 grs, #13 NonCon for Lever Guns, and a long nose version designed for the 458 B&M Super Short.

I ran this test with two chronos, one up front, and one at 48 yards. Distance between the two Chronographs is 42 yards for those of you who want to run BC. I am not interested in BC on this test, I want to know what the Impact Velocity is, which of course is governed by BC.

I used a 458 B&M with 18 Inch barrel! To equal pressure the 295 #13 NonCon Lever Gun seated deep I can use 73/H-4198. The 295 #13 NonCon long nose, or SS bullet I can use 78/H-4198. Equal Pressure.




Results!


Summary

You see 3 different tests.

#1--295 Lever Gun seated deep, with tip. It starts out at a full 100 fps less than the 295 SS, but yet it arrives at target with a Impact Velocity of 66 fps MORE than the 295 SS with no tip!

While that may not seem like a big deal, it is in fact rather substantial.

Moving to the 295 SS bullet pay particular attention to the "starting Velocity" with the tip added to that bullet! 46 fps MORE with the tip, than without the tip! Reason? The chronograph is set up 6 yards in front of the muzzle, it seems to have gained velocity, true, but more Truthful, you have Lost Less Velocity at 6 yards, 46 fps! In many cases, that's 2 grs of powder, and increased pressure, and this is for "Free". LOL... At a full 48 yards with increased velocity up front, you hit at 48 at 2628 fps, a full 142 fps faster than the 295 LG Tipped, but having to start out at lower velocity because of the seating depth.

Are you beginning to see some of the compromises one must choose to make?

I hate compromise! But in some cases, there is no choice, and every choice is a compromise, regardless of which choice you make!

That's it for me today! At least anything that could possibly be considered of any consequence anyway!


Michael

The quick down and dirty estimation is 0.176 BC w/o the Talon S Tip and 0.338 BC with the Talon S tip...

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
[QUOTE]Michael does not just want to kill the buff but have them flip over, blood spewing drop on the spot.

Works for me!

Reminders;

Buffalo Heart from 500 MDM 460 BBW#13 NonCon 2400 fps--This is cleaved in half--bad photo was taken in the dark in the shed.





A question. Which will die quicker. A buff with a shot like above or one with an 1/1/2" hole through the top of the heart or the aorta? Also why do you think so.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
The quick down and dirty estimation is 0.176 BC w/o the Talon S Tip and 0.338 BC with the Talon S tip...

Doc M,
I'll drink to that too.
I just got back into "The Dark and Bloody Ground" after 3 months in the Dakotas.

When I get caught up on the snail mail, I will try those samples (thank you very much)
of CEB .458 ESP S300 Raptor 300-grainers in my .458 B&M,
with and without tips forward, as softs,
and as solids, with hollowpoint trailing.

Will fill that trailing hollowpoint with Dacron fluff filler and use the same charges for all.
Just an experiment to avoid powder charge tinkering, for those so inclined.
I expect it will work to my standards of easy accuracy.

Then I have those samples (thank you very much)
of CEB .500-caliber NonCons to try in the 49-10:

DGBR-HP W14LG LEVER GUN NonCon .500 375GR BBW#13
DGBR-HP W16 BRASS NonCon HP .500 375GR BBW#13
and
DGBR-HP W21LG LEVER GUN NonCon .500 365GR BBW#13

Also my North Fork .500-caliber 450-gr and 375-gr FP copper solids, with new nose shape, have been lying fallow too long.
49-10 load tinkering coming up.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
[QUOTE]Michael does not just want to kill the buff but have them flip over, blood spewing drop on the spot.

Works for me!

Reminders;

Buffalo Heart from 500 MDM 460 BBW#13 NonCon 2400 fps--This is cleaved in half--bad photo was taken in the dark in the shed.





A question. Which will die quicker. A buff with a shot like above or one with an 1/1/2" hole through the top of the heart or the aorta? Also why do you think so.

465H&H

If you split the heart, there will be zero blood flow out of the heart to systemic circulation.
If the hole is "only" 1.5" through the great vessels or atria at top of heart, then there is a chance of some greatly diminished, but continued, systemic circulation for a few seconds longer.

Split heart dies a few seconds faster. A few seconds less chance for mischief with a split heart.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Buffalo Heart from 500 MDM 460 BBW#13 NonCon 2400 fps--This is cleaved in half--bad photo was taken in the dark in the shed.




A question. Which will die quicker. A buff with a shot like above or one with an 1/1/2" hole through the top of the heart or the aorta? Also why do you think so.

465H&H

If you split the heart, there will be zero blood flow out of the heart to systemic circulation.
If the hole is "only" 1.5" through the great vessels or atria at top of heart, then there is a chance of some greatly diminished, but continued, systemic circulation for a few seconds longer.

Split heart dies a few seconds faster. A few seconds less chance for mischief with a split heart.

This statement I agree with along with its underlying rational.

These bullets are a real "Heartbreaker"
If they can only run 50 yards without lungs or heart just be sure to know where the 50 yard line is

Does anyone else here not think that what Sam and Michael observed in Australia was interesting regarding a fast light 50 Non Con was more effective than a heavy slower Non Con? The Super Shorts were more effective with the lighter bullets than the 500 NE with heavies. Yes don't try light and fast with a conventional bullet but WOW! These bullets love velocity.

Saw it this year with a 235 gn Woodleigh Hydro
doing the same job in terms of damage and penetration on Buffalo.

Where as I would normally use a 300 gn in a 375H&H, the lighter versions of these bullets do it just as well.

.

Uh oh, there he goes again, mentioning a .375-caliber rifle for buffalo hunting ... on Doc M's thread ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Uh oh, there he goes again, mentioning a .375-caliber rifle for buffalo hunting ... on Doc M's thread ...

Not only that but "Woodleigh" as well!!

Michael, regarding start velocity and impact velocity discussion... the 458 bullets seem to be the max diameter for most big bore shooters unless getting into custom or expensive guns. In a 458 win mag a tipped raptor can maximize impact velocity so that is a good niche for the 300 grain 458 ESP Raptor. Regarding the bulge issue for highly compressed loads... Are there other powders that you have used that show good results without compression?

Boomstick,

I don't think I ever said the super shorts with light bullets were more effective than the 500NE with heavies. I did say that I saw in my 500NE that the tipped 475 gr non con was more effective or showed more shock than the 535 gr non tipped non cons. The super shorts both in 475 and 500 caliber were very effective on buffalo and I think with BBW#13 non cons and Northfork CPSs in these super shorts made them more effective than maybe a 500NE with conventional soft point bullets. Hope this clears things up. Sorry I wasn't able to meet you when you came by Michael's.

Sam

Sorry if I misquoted. Yes would have been great to chat and meet. I was posting about how well the large light fast bullets seemed to be quite capable on the buff from reports. You guys proved the big bore super shorts can be an effective killer.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
[QUOTE]Michael does not just want to kill the buff but have them flip over, blood spewing drop on the spot.

Works for me!

Reminders;

Buffalo Heart from 500 MDM 460 BBW#13 NonCon 2400 fps--This is cleaved in half--bad photo was taken in the dark in the shed.





A question. Which will die quicker. A buff with a shot like above or one with an 1/1/2" hole through the top of the heart or the aorta? Also why do you think so.

465H&H

If you split the heart, there will be zero blood flow out of the heart to systemic circulation.
If the hole is "only" 1.5" through the great vessels or atria at top of heart, then there is a chance of some greatly diminished, but continued, systemic circulation for a few seconds longer.

Split heart dies a few seconds faster. A few seconds less chance for mischief with a split heart.

RIP,

My thought was that if the heart is split open and can no longer pump, the amount of blood loss is then related to the size of the vein feeding blood to the heart. That amount would drain just as quickly from a 1/1/2" hole as a split heart. If the bullet puts a 1 1/2" hole in the aorta then when the heart pumps the blood will follow the path of least resistance and go out that hole rather than into the arteries where resistance is much higher.

465H&H

Michael:

You know that I think that the BBW13 solids you and Sam developed are incredible. You and Jeff were the guys who got me hooked on 'LIGHT AND HANDY". You are a real gentlemen and nobody appreciates all your hard work more than I do. However, you are right. I just don't have any interest in the non cons, especially when there are superb alternatives available from North Fork, Barnes, Swift, Nosler, and Woodleigh. I also don't share your views about the 9,3 or .375 so, I will take your advice and just "shut up". If I have offended you in any way, I am truly sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Uh oh, there he goes again, mentioning a .375-caliber rifle for buffalo hunting ... on Doc M's thread ...

Afraid of a little competition that works ?

Both animals would have died from the first heart shot ....

I also took photos of the heart of one of the
animals as the effect of the Hydro was to create a huge V in the side of the heart as opposed to a nicer ragged 1 inch hole that normal lead bullets create.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

You know that I think that the BBW13 solids you and Sam developed are incredible. You and Jeff were the guys who got me hooked on 'LIGHT AND HANDY". You are a real gentlemen and nobody appreciates all your hard work more than I do. However, you are right. I just don't have any interest in the non cons, especially when there are superb alternatives available from North Fork, Barnes, Swift, Nosler, and Woodleigh. I also don't share your views about the 9,3 or .375 so, I will take your advice and just "shut up". If I have offended you in any way, I am truly sorry.

Dave

No man! Honestly, I might have been a little on the rough side on that comment! I apologize, and really did not mean or want you to take it that way! You have no need at all to apologize! No, you have not offended me at all! I know where you stand, you know where I am, and I don' t disagree with you, North Forks are great bullets, and I support that 100% as well, I have shelves full of them! Barnes TSX, excellent bullet, but Barnes is on my shit list for being traitorous bastards! Swift, used many a Swift always with success. Nosler, not so much a fan of Noslers, not for the buffalo world. I can get by for the rest of my days with CEB and North Fork, never need any of the others for anything.

So we are not far apart, and I know how hard headed you are! And my god, you have come around to my way of thinking on many many things, I can let you by with one that you don't! LOL.....

Please, don't shut up, and forgive my choice of words please. I consider you a great asset to any thread or conversation I am involved in! And, enjoy you being around!

Sincerely
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Uh oh, there he goes again, mentioning a .375-caliber rifle for buffalo hunting ... on Doc M's thread ...

Afraid of a little competition that works ?

I am so sorry to tell you ole boy, but you cannot in any way possible, no matter what you do, no matter what you come up with, if you try for the next 1000 years, you cannot compete with Me!

I am not in the bullet business!

Michael

Michael

That comment of mine was directed at RIP,
not you. I know you are not in the bullet business,
just providing a superb service to hunters with
your testing.


I enjoy our, sometimes heated, discussions on here

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Michael

That comment of mine was directed at RIP,
not you. I know you are not in the bullet business,
just providing a superb service to hunters with
your testing.


I enjoy our, sometimes heated, discussions on here

Then don't get your panties in a bunch over a .375-caliber joke on the Big bore forum!
Glad to see you included a when you adjusted those panties above.

I actually like .375 Caliber rifles for things bigger than rats.
But a .375 with a Woodleigh bullet: Rat gun only!!!

(Hint: That was a joke too.)