quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
ALF
one of us
Posted 03 July 2012 16:15 Hide Post
Trax:

yes !

The "mistakes" made in the interpretation of the tests are numerous but most probably the greatest error derives from the fact that behaviours are reported that are not tested for.

As I have tried to show over and over it is a two way street.

Only the bullet behaviour is tested for in the simulation, not the target behaviour and even then only certain behaviours not all.

So if there is comment bullet expanding or fragmenting etc etc then that part is ok, the minute there is reference to the amount of trauma done to the paper stack or gelatine or reference to this likely being a better killer than that, as observed by the amount of damage to the target then the test is invalid, no matter how many times over you repeat the test !

It is a systematic error in the methodology employed.

Yes I agree that the amount of damage to the target material would constitute a measure of lethality in living tissue but sadly simulation testing does not test for this..... this is the problem and people do not seem to get this.

The hole you see in gelatine and the hole in paper after shooting is not representative of the amount of damage done in various tissues. This is why basic science in ballistics is so important.

Just to illustrate here is a picture posted from the terminal thread



This is the "trauma" done to the paper.

Simple questions:

1. What caused this damage ? By that I mean by what mode of action did this occur?

2. Do you see this behaviour in living muscle , or bone or organ tissues? In other words if you shoot your animal do you see this destruction and mass of devitalized tissue ejected from the target ?

This whole thing to me is amazing because this thread on terminals is so important it has been made a permanent fixture on AR.

So anyone wishing to find out about ballistics who googles Terminal behaviour is going to get this popping up on their screen. They may actually believe that what they see there is how things happen ?

I cannot wait to see some kid at school presenting this for fact when asked to write a term paper on ballistics !

Posts: 61



Alf is at it again



SSr

ALF has lost my respect long time ago by deleting his own posts all the time.

I couldn't care less about what drivel he writes.

quote:

Originally posted by Clem:
245 page thread. Holy Schmokers!! You guys need to get out more.


Some good info here though fellas. Interesting read.

Oh we get out, no worries there. Fact of point, there is almost always someone in the field during season of course. I was out in April, Dan in June, I am leaving again for Australia in a couple of weeks, then Lionhunter and his partner Carl leave while I am out for Zimbabwe for buffalo and elephant, and there are many more, and all with many of these same bullets! So we get out! I am on the range these days, if that counts, nearly every day doing something.

Welcome Clem--Glad to have you, and I venture to say if you read close enough, you will find something of value! Regardless of what some chosen individuals may think or believe, or choose not to believe, either way.

Michael

What is interesting is the new NF nose profile will be less prone to deformation. I like brass over copper for deformation issues. Now if NF made matching cup points that would make them more desirable for a premium conventional mono metal expanding bullet. That would be good for same feeding characteristics in a bolt as well as POI.

Well,
North Fork is making the Cup Points in same weights as the new solids: .500/375-gr and .500/450-gr

And by golly even the soft points in same weights: .500/375-gr and .500/450-gr
Pictures not available on these,
at the website,
but here is the .458/450-gr SSP:



Bullets that even Terry could love.

... From my cold, dead hands,
... or when I go blind,
... but I will keep the shotguns if just blind.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
What is interesting is the new NF nose profile will be less prone to deformation. I like brass over copper for deformation issues. Now if NF made matching cup points that would make them more desirable for a premium conventional mono metal expanding bullet. That would be good for same feeding characteristics in a bolt as well as POI.

Boomy

I also like the brass solids, however I have used copper solids in the past, busted heavy bone on buffalo, and elephants, and no deformation at all. I do have a few copper solids that took a beating, however they did their job well. I would have zero issues with the new North Fork Profile in copper. I think a matching set of Solid/CPS would be nice, and on that I would request that the weights not be equal with the CPS, as with the BBW#13s we know that weight is not the issue with POI at 50, but bearing surface is more important. With that being said, I am very well satisfied with the .500 caliber CPS that we currently have and also the .474 that North Fork did for the 475 B&M and the 475 B&M Super Shorts. These new .474s from North Fork, and then .474s from Cutting Edge adds much to the available choices in .474 caliber. Problem is, there are very few .474 caliber cartridges. I dare say right now there is probably more .500 cartridges that .474.

Here are some of the North Fork CPS--I will be using some of these bullets in a couple of weeks in Australia for buffalo, in the 475 B&M, 475 B&M Super Short, and the 50 B&M Super Short.








I want to also try some of the .474 North Fork Premium Bonded bullets in the 475 B&M.








And there is the .500 caliber 450 North Fork, primary design for the 50 B&M Alaskan Lever Guns, however do very well in the 50 B&M too. Would do great in most any .500 caliber cartridge.







.500 caliber North Fork CPS

Dag Michael, really, 3014fps with a 375 gr out of the MDM!! so why then is the 335 non con BBW 13 only getting 2804. does the copper slide that much easier?

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Dag Michael, really, 3014fps with a 375 gr out of the MDM!! so why then is the 335 non con BBW 13 only getting 2804. does the copper slide that much easier?

Brent, No, I think the brass is actually slicker. What you see there with that 375 North Fork is the real deal--The issue is, that was with the FIRST Keg--only 5 lbs, of RL 10X that I did data and pressure data with a couple of years ago. Man, this ONE KEG of RL 10X made the 500 MDM stand up and get noticed. Hell, it had that 375 NF at over 3000, 450 North Forks at 2750, 460 and 500 BBW#13s at 2650 fps, all well under 65000, most at 59000-62000. After that ONE KEG, it all went to hell after that. The next keg I had to run 3-4 grs LESS RL 10X to equal the same pressure, at some less velocity. The next 5 lb Keg was even much less, around 10 grs or so less, and much less velocity. So For the 500 MDM I had to remove all the RL 10X data from the data sheets, it had become very dangerous. Had we used the original data and a new keg of RL 10X, there would have been BIG problems.

Now, it's IMR 8208 as top powder, followed by H-322. Neither can get to those original RL 10X velocities and pressures. However, when I get the Pressure Trace equipment back up and running, maybe by this fall now, I plan on doing some powder blending with IMR 8208 and H-322 and H-4198. Using IMR 8208 as a base, blending the other two individually with it. Preliminary blend test a couple of months ago with IMR 8208 and H-322 gave some excellent results, with blends being better than either on it's own. I need to expand on those blends to max pressures, then try the IMR 8208/H-4198 blend. I can get back to that Keg of RL 10X, but only with one of these blends, or possibly a blend of IMR 8208 and new RL 10X. But this work has to be done with the PT equipment hooked up and running proper to monitor it very close.

Michael

Blending powders in the back room, probably not something OSHA or the insurance company needs to know about .. But call me I am in to help, just like when we were kids, now with bigger toys and no supervision

245 pages with lots of photos of the bullet's effect on real animals under real conditions and Terry has to write such drivel !Shame !

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
245 pages with lots of photos of the bullet's effect on real animals under real conditions and Terry has to write such drivel !Shame !

quote:

... "As the premium-bullet market has matured, we predictably find marketing people trying to turn vice into virtue.
For example, the argument that a bullet will expand, the claws will fly off, and behave like shrapnel, penetrating at different angles into the vitals of the animal."

quote:

"Anyone who has examined a wound, or even the penetration channel of a medium such as soaked, compressed newsprint
(which is the closest we can come to duplicating the characteristics of animal tissue)
knows that claws, when they have broken off, merely litter the wound channel."

Weiland obviously has never tested or worked with brass projectiles. He has only worked with copper. He does not understand or realize there is a difference in the way they behave. When we were working with the copper HPs and at velocity the blades shearing, they did remain inside the wound channel, both in the test work here, and in animal tissue as well. The reason? They do not shear at the same point, nor the same time. Copper is malleable, softer, blades start to peel back, and try to hang on to the main bullet before they break or shear. They are distributed throughout the wound channel as they don't shear or break off at the same time. The formula for getting copper to shear like the brass noncons is rather simple, short blades! We did some short blade, .300 deep cavity. Not being long and trying to peel like a banana, they broke before peel, and sheared in a star pattern around the bullet, like brass. Weiland is speaking out of ignorance, and rather strongly at that, makes him a "Stupid-Ass"-You can tell him I SAID SO as well. Or maybe he will read it.

quote:

"The shrapnel argument is purest hogwash, invented by marketing people to to sugar-coat poor performance." ..... "And avoid any bullet that claims a "shrapnel effect," or which emphasizes long-range accuracy rather than terminal performance."

Hogwash, marketing sugar coat poor performance! Yeah, right! We see the effects in the wet print mix I use, we see it in the gel that Dan has used and tested in, and we see it in animal tissue as well. All the same, all behave the same, and I personally have used them on 25+ animals and this ain't my first rodeo, and there is a big difference in terminals between them and conventionals in trauma that can be seen when the animal takes the bullet, and in the damage done afterwards. There are many more that have seen them work as well, many of you, several Professional Hunters now, all say the same thing "I have never Seen anything Like this", and neither has Terry Weiland--The "Stupid-Ass"

Michael--And Michael said, Terry Weiland is a Stupid Ass, and will do so straight to his face as well!

Doc M,

Outstanding in your field, as usual, whether as professor of ballistics or tree farmer.
North Fork could put your photography to good use,
whenever they get around to updating their website.
Do you have any idea when the bulk shipment of newest .500-caliber bullets is expected?
As soon as my pocketbook can stand it, I'll be ordering some of those
Terry Wee-wee-land approved softs.

... From my cold, dead hands,
... or when I go blind,
... but I will keep the shotguns if just blind.

Terry. I call you on your BS. Test the bullets!!!!!!! I'm betting you won't because it will prove you wrong. The bullets are proven. The egg is on your face. The only "Hog wash" is your article. We are calling you on it. Back up your pontificating and assertion with testing before you print false statements and slander. I guess the gun mags you write for do not have high standards to print untested lies. If you tested the bullets you could have had a great article explaining the awesome performance and show something new to the market. Is it a matter of you are in the pocket for other bullet companies? Are you just a drivel writing crony? Please explain your methodology and data for your findings for such great conclusions. Oh yeah. You never tested them. Don't be lazy Terry.

On the copper and brass differences that Michael mentioned--

has anyone run any brass bullets in 1.25" parallel freebore where the brass ENGAGES the rifling? It would be good to know what the composition of the brass was, if so.

I hope to have some copper tests (like 450gn Woodleighs at 2600fps) in a couple of weeks to confirm either engraving or shearing for copper at higher velocities. I am expecting it to engage and work fine. 50 years ago people used to routinely 'wildcat' a two- to three-calibre length freebore along with a faster powder in order to generate 150 fps higher velocities in flat-shooting calibres. (They were not benchrest shooters, but they still expected a 3/4" rifle to remain 3/4" and not to jump up over MOA.)

And we are still waiting for .510" Raptors . (The original "50" rifle calibre, not that the 49 isn't a great addition to rifle options.) I suppose that I could buy a box of .510 Raptor's and see if they will engage the rifling when producing 2900fps . If not, then it's rebarrel time with a short-freebore-reamer. Those might be expensive Raptors.

Tanz

Honestly, I am hesitant about a .510 Raptor. Couple of thoughts and ideas. You want a Raptor so you can seat deep, use the Talon tip for better BC and longer range work. Raptor with a BBW#13 Solid attached to the ass, compresses powder outwards towards the case walls in the big bores, not downward as with a flat base BBW#13 NonCon. I have not been much enthusiastic about Raptors in the Big Bores. We loose a lot of much needed case capacity this way. Here at B&M we love compressed loads, and prefer them actually. But straight down compression, not to the sides where case bulge is going to happen and be a major limiting factor.

Now I am not in the marketing business, but I do think about multi use. A .510 Raptor is very limited in it's use in .510 caliber cartridges.

I would be much more inclined for a multi cartridge bullet, something along the lines of a shorter nose profile, BBW#13 NonCon, like the new 300 and 335 bullets in .500 caliber, that I just got in a week or so ago. You see, they are absolutely perfect for seating deep, flat base, use tips in magazine, increased case capacity, and less of a bulge factor than the Raptor would be in the same weight. Twist rates, not a concern. And, a great added additional use, they can be used in the 51 Alaskan cartridge for the lever guns!

You see, I have no stake in it one way or the other. I am not the marketing specialist for CEB or anyone else as T Wee Weiland might think. If I do a bullet, I pay just like everyone else, I would be inclined to put my efforts in a bullet that I could use in that big 510 Wells, or a couple of 51 Alaskans that I have either way. I might could be talked into that sort of deal.

But, you can always go direct to CEB and Dan, and get yourself a Raptor too. I just don't think I have a use for a .510 Raptor. So I am not so inclined to have a run made. Even if I could be talked into a BBW#13 Short Nose NonCon, I personally would have little use for it, I would never take any of those to the field, not when I have time, money and interests in my own .500 caliber cartridges instead. I can't ever in my lifetime see myself going to the field with anything that is not a B&M. So even a .510 that I would approve of has little personal use to me at all.

Michael

PRECISION SHOOTING MAGAZINE JULY 2012


There is a 6 page in depth article in this magazine concerning Cutting Edge Bullets. A far cry from the ignorant ranting of TWEE Weiland, and a very good read.

I have a copy on the B&M website, pdf format if you have not had a chance to see it yet.

Go here to download--I have it on the B&M News and Events Page under July 2012.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...m/News---Events.html

Michael

quote:

I would be much more inclined for a multi cartridge bullet, something along the lines of a shorter nose profile, BBW#13 NonCon, like the new 300 and 335 bullets in .500 caliber, that I just got in a week or so ago. You see, they are absolutely perfect for seating deep, flat base, use tips in magazine, increased case capacity, and less of a bulge factor than the Raptor would be in the same weight. Twist rates, not a concern. And, a great added additional use, they can be used in the 51 Alaskan cartridge for the lever guns!

Thanks, Michael.

Yes. YES. I am not concerned with the Raptor as "Raptor" and boattail/switchable solid. A flat-based, non-con with a TIP would be perfect. Most of a BC factor comes from a nose, in any case. Of course, the 500 Accurate Reloading (124 gn H2O) has quite a bit more case capacity than a B&M (93.6, using Ammo Guide units). That 30 grain difference probably means that a .510" non-con will fit even if it comes with a boattail.

On the physics of these issues, I would think that a boattail could add stability by moving the center of gravity forward. Of course, the length is extended for a boattail, and length is a detriment to stability. I do not know which is more influential or grows faster.

My thoughts are for a bullet that will have a total nose length max up to .75". That will be fittable into most magazines of a .510 calibre. A 1.5" bullet would only go .76" into the neck and case. What sould such a 1.5" bullet weigh?

Guestimating from GSCustom, I am thinking that a .65" nose would be plenty and a total length of 1.2-1.3" inches would leave plenty of space and would weigh in the neighborhood of 375 grains. (Someone with a Quick-design program can work these out.)
And I would think it to be stable in a 12" twist.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
PRECISION SHOOTING MAGAZINE JULY 2012


There is a 6 page in depth article in this magazine concerning Cutting Edge Bullets. A far cry from the ignorant ranting of TWEE Weiland, and a very good read.

I have a copy on the B&M website, pdf format if you have not had a chance to see it yet.

Go here to download--I have it on the B&M News and Events Page under July 2012.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...m/News---Events.html

Michael

Good read DocM. I noticed they used "your" testing pics

Regards

Tanz

As for stability, that is not even a concern with the flat base BBW#13s, hell, 535s with Tips in the end are stable in the double rifles, most with 1:15 and 1:18 twist rates. Just don't have a stability issue at all with the flat base bullets as opposed the the Raptor. I did not think there would be stability issues with Raptors in the big bores, but I was wrong on that. Raptor is a funny bird!

Now, don't get me wrong people, from 9.3 down, I am a serious Raptor fan. So much so, that my 9.3 B&M has become a 1 Bullet Cartridge/Rifle--One just will not need in a 9.3 for normal work, anything but a 210 Raptor. This is the bullet and load I am taking for some herd reduction buffalo in a couple of weeks. This is the bullet that I could not contain in zebra or wildebeast in South Africa a couple of months ago. I doubt I contain any in a buffalo unless it is frontal. So I love the Raptors in any of the small bores and see hardly any need at all for anything else.

Tanz, I think a good 350 gr BBW#13 Short Nose profile is in order. Believe me, it will be more than enough for anything you might embark upon. It will be designed so as to work through a Marlin in 51 Alaskan, you will have three bands at the top in which to adjust out if you want to work in your rifle. This way, multi cartridge use, exactly like the 300 and 335 I had done in .500. You see, those are perfect bullets for the real 50 B&M Alaskan as well. I can run the 300 at 2375 fps in 18 inches, and the 335 was up to 2275 fps in the lever guns. In the 50 B&M 300@2500 and 335@ 2450, in the 500 MDM 300@ 2991 and the 335 @ 2896. I have not had time to try the 50 Super Short with them yet.

I can do this.
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Esskay:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
PRECISION SHOOTING MAGAZINE JULY 2012


There is a 6 page in depth article in this magazine concerning Cutting Edge Bullets. A far cry from the ignorant ranting of TWEE Weiland, and a very good read.

I have a copy on the B&M website, pdf format if you have not had a chance to see it yet.

Go here to download--I have it on the B&M News and Events Page under July 2012.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...m/News---Events.html

Michael

Good read DocM. I noticed they used "your" testing pics

Regards

Esskay, Yes I think its a great article.

M

If a "flatbase", tipped non-con will be stable,
then we can start testing and loading.

Your "350" grain becomes 361 with a tip.
I calculate that I will be able to run those at 2900 up to 3000 fps in a 500AccR.

However, at the moment CEB only has 530 grain non-cons. When they get some of those short, hollow-tipped "350"'s, I can try a box to see if they shear the bands, or engage the riflings. That will be the ultimate factor on whether I rebarrel the virgin barrel or not. Buffalo's tests two months ago do not auger well for my 'long throat'.

CEB: Good press at Precision Shooting.

Terry Wee-wee-Land: He will have a hissy fit and wet his pants.

North Fork has shipped the Gen-3 FPS.

Some musings on stability and Raptors.

Why were the Raptors not stable when the non-cons were stable?

Perhaps it is not tied to center of gravity, but center of gravity in relation to the last wide point of the projectile.

Perhaps the boattails in the Raptor do not add to stability by moving the center of gravity forward from the base of the boattail. Instead, the last point where the body is .500" or .510" is a more significant point of reference. Then a boattail would draw the center of gravity back toward that point, while a flatbase would have its COG farther forward from that heel reference point.

Normal bullets do not get near such stabilazation issues. However, the Raptor has a long, lightweight frontpiece that apparently needs full steering from the rear core. The flatbase is able to provide such steering with a COG forward of its heel, while a Raptor boattail must use its widebody point for steering and the COG is not as far forward from that reference point because of the weighty, non-steering tail.

So the ultimate long range bullet may be a tipped non-con.
We can always have separate flatnose solid.

Was good to see the new article. Tarzan...The Raptor is so outside conventional thinking that it was hard even for me to see that if at a .2 SD you are out penetrating even the heaviest of say Barnes TSX what was the need for a heavier longer bullet. We also saw that Raptors love velocity in terms of terminal performance and getting there quick with little bullet drop at 99% of hunting distances. there were pitfalls on having such a long light nose on the already light Raptor but that has pretty much been figured out. These bullets are so good and I would not want a slow twist barrel to begin with I would make sure my hunting rifle only shot these bullets and had a twist that makes sense.

Something that has not been discussed that is sort of related to TP is recoil reduction. The lighter raptors will have less recoil due to a number of factors. if you drop the bullet weights by a quarter or a third you may be less prone to flinch and get the bullet where it needs to go.

Would have been nice if J.C. Munnell had tested his Raptors as hollow-base FN solid, just for accuracy and velocity variation.

He did mention that he "unfathomably" did not do that.

He also seems to hint that the Raptor is more accurate without the tip than with the tip (Talon).

I found no detectable decrement in accuracy with Talon tip installed.
Good to 300 yards.

I did find that using the Raptor reversed, as a solid, with hollow nose down in the powder chamber, caused erratic velocities and poor accuracy.

I rather like the idea of just putting the Talon tip on a flat-base NonCon, and using standard FN solids.
Forget the Raptor as a solid, but it is a wonderful HP or tipped-HP soft.
A "NonCon-Plus."

Hoo boy, another me too...for me. Have been thinking of the tips on several of the non-cons I currently use. Am not sure whether they will fit (I might have missed this). What say you, DrM?

Might just add some filler to the base or top of charge
But seriously I think a snap in base plug could be good for the large bores.
I think some testing could be done to see Rip's findings are on to something.
I'm glad Rip found this because this could help improve the Raptors for everyone.
Maybe we can name the plugs after Rip.
Make the ass plugs the same weight as the tips for consistency.

Boom Stick:
No way do I want a butt plug named "Rip" as in
"rip you a new a-hole."
Butt seriously, ass well ass the fact that messing with
the base of a bullet can cause accuracy problems
more so than a little nose irregularity:
No RIP Butt Plug!

Max,
IIRC, the newer Talon tips work in the newer NonCon nose holes.
Doc M will clarify I am sure, if he has time before
the next safari.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Hoo boy, another me too...for me. Have been thinking of the tips on several of the non-cons I currently use. Am not sure whether they will fit (I might have missed this). What say you, DrM?

All new tips fit perfectly all bullets now. Tips have been all sorted out, from small bore to the .500s and .510s. Currently right now we think there is no difference, and not enough to matter, between .510 and .500, they use the same cavity, W tips fit .500 and .510.

There is only 1 Tip per any given caliber, and all Cavities are the same now. So whatever tip you buy for a particular caliber, they will work in any NonCon in that caliber.

For 458 I think they are S Tips.

The 295 BBW#13 NonCon LG--LEVER GUN--Short Nose--fits down in the case of a 458 B&M perfectly, install tip, and work through the magazine fine. They will also work in 458 WIn, 458 Lott and I would think ANY other 458 Cartridge and magazine.

The new .500s I have here--300 BBW#13 NonCon W25 and the 335 BBW#13 NonCon W24--are the same--work perfect in the lever guns for 50 B&M Alaskan--Seat deep in 50 B&M and 500 MDM add a tip, work through the magazines of the bolt guns.


Tanz, other .510 caliber shooters. A new .510 350 gr Lever Gun Bullet is coming soon! It will also seat deep in bolt gun cartridges, add tip, and will work through the magazines! Coming to a place near you soon!


SPEAKING OF TIPS-------

This is a new tip of sorts. Dan has made a CAP, that will PLUG the nose of the NonCons---Turning them into Round Nose Profiles! WHY???????? So they will feed in CHEAP ASS POS BOLT GUNS. I have some on the way for testing. This should help folks out that don't want to spend $ to fix a cheap ass rifle.



RIP

I have had good luck with the Raptors turned around as solids in everything I have done here. I have done several,.308, 9.3 and 338 in particular quite a bit, 458, 474, .500 to a lesser extent. I did some 416s as well. In every single case I would get as much as 100 fps less velocity than the NonCon end, but very accurate and in the same POI as tipped or Non-Tipped Noncons. Less velocity as you have increased case capacity with the HP down, and the solid is not seated as deep, still have a longer nose profile on the solid end. Now, off course, I only shot 50 yds here too.

Some of the Raptors I have left over in big bores, .500s and .474s I don't intend to use as anything else besides the solids, or seated out NonCons perhaps.


Michael

I'm glad Dan is making three types of tips. Spitzer, ogive and RN. We discussed this on the forum and I drew some up and they will make them just a tad longer approx 30% of diameter from my sketches so you could load them from the top band and keep max oal.
Ok Rip
No Ass ripper plug in your honor

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I'm glad Dan is making three types of tips. Spitzer, ogive and RN. We discussed this on the forum and I drew some up and they will make them just a tad longer approx 30% of diameter from my sketches so you could load them from the top band and keep max oal.
Ok Rip
No Ass ripper plug in your honor

I am hoping the RN Tip is not too long, it can't be. We have the long nose projections almost max for many cartridges, it can't go beyond very much at all. Dan and I talked about this, so I think he will get it sorted. We will see, will have some next week.

quote:

All new tips fit perfectly all bullets now. Tips have been all sorted out, from small bore to the .500s and .510s. Currently right now we think there is no difference, and not enough to matter, between .510 and .500, they use the same cavity, W tips fit .500 and .510.

There is only 1 Tip per any given caliber, and all Cavities are the same now. So whatever tip you buy for a particular caliber, they will work in any NonCon in that caliber.

Just so that everyone understands that the Talon Tips likely will not fit their early model NonCons...at least they do not in the .500s!

Thanks for the information. I'm getting several different bullets in different calibers and it will be great to have to use only one talon tip.
Max

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?...Query=Cutting+edge++

Hooora!
You can get ESP Raptors at MidwayUSA now.
CEB and Raptors are moving up in the world.

quote:

I did find that using the Raptor reversed, as a solid, with hollow nose down in the powder chamber, caused erratic velocities and poor accuracy.

Rip,
When you flipped the Raptor around and shot them as a solid did you use the same load as you did when shooting them as a NonCon? If so that was probaby the reson for the erratic muzzle velocity and accuracy. Due to the sometimes drastic difference in projection length of the solid end verses loaded as a NonCon there is quite a bit of air space in the case as a solid which at times definitely produces erratic ignition and velocities. It is not convenient to load them using different powders when loading them different ways but I would bet if you picked a slower burning powder when loading them as a solid to produce the same muzzle velocity as when loaded as a NonCon, you would have gotten different results. At 100 yards we have gotten no noticible degradation in accuracy when shooting them as a solid but using a slightly slower burning powder to fill the case to the bottom of the bullet. No doubt the cavity still makes a difference but they do shoot better when doing this.
As Boomy mentioned, adding filler would probably accomplish the same thing but we do not do that so anyone doing that is on their own.
As for the butt plug, we will not be making them either.
Michael mentioned the caps we just ran off for the NonCon feeding issue some people have with some rifles. We have them in .375, .416, .458 and .500 calibers right now and they will be added to the web site shortly. For lack of coming up with a better name they are simply called Cap L, Cap R, Cap S and Cap W corresponding to the bullet caliber designation. The caps add between .093 and .103" in length to the NonCon's so they may need to be seated deeper to fit down in some magazines. They will certainly help feeding and is something we should have considered when initially determining the band placement. Unfortunately, if one cannot feed the NonCon bullets they will not be able to feed the solids either so it is still better to get the rifle fixed to properly feed.

Since I do not normally participate on any forums please do not expect me to start now. I have my hands full with many other things and it is impossible to do everything. I did feel I should put my $.02 in on the Raptor issue so I did. If anyone has anything they want to discuss with me please feel free to contact me by email and I will respond. I appreciate all of the input all of you guys have given over the last year and a half. We will continue to be lurkers unless we absolutely have to jump in.

Thanks
Dan
djsmitchko@cuttingedgebullets.com

Dan,
Yep, I used the same loads for Raptor as HP soft
and FN solid.
I understand how to adjust the loading technique to get
a better result with the Raptor as a boat-tailed, hollow-based, FN solid,
but I do not see the need for it.
You make a best solid already,
and the ESP Raptor is the best ever soft.
Thanks for jumping in, understand your need to avoid visiting the asylum here.
Keep up the good work at CEB.

My 2 cents on the subject...

The RN Caps should be an interesting addition to the Ogive and Spitzer Talon Tips...will give the same terminal within mass benefit of the Talon Tips as well as slightly better BC than the uncapped HP NonCon...

As the ESP Raptors are designed as a 'one-all-use' bullet option for those inclined to use it as such perhaps the 'Solid end of ESP Raptor forward' needs further investigation. Perhaps after Mochael returns from his hunt he could test some of SAMs foam backer rod as a spacer using same powder/volume of powder used with HP NonCon end forward... I may be wrong but I believe this is the manner 'most likely' to be adopted by 'one-all-use' folks...

Again, just my 2 cents...

A RN tip, will help out the lever gun guys get a bit better performance.

Just a thought.

Keith

I think if your rifle can not feed the non tipped BBW13 profile you have a gun problem not a bullet problem but some may want the added BC and the RN caps may lower impact velocity shear. Variety is good and I'm glad to see three styles of tips to increase versatility.

I agree that folks need to get over the bullet vis-a-vis feeding issue. If your bolt rifle doesn't feed any bullet combination slicker snot then you need to identify a gunsmith that specializes in your brand of action and have that gunsmith work it over...eliminate the problem at the root cause... Just make sure your gunsmith can competently perform the feeding work! Then use the absolute best bullet you can afford for the purpose you intend to use it and use it properly... Issue resolved!

The new Caps should definately lower the velocity impact shear of the HP NonCons which is their principal benefit...Any additional BC added to the bullet is only icing on the cake.