quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Well, a 250 Raptor could be loaded to 3300 fps without a problem in 416 Rigby--
BUT I just did a stability check for our 16.5" twist Rigbys: Stab.Fac. is 1.43, assuming a relatively short Raptor of 1.5" bullet length.

That's the kind of stability factor that we see down in the little bullets like 22-27 calibre, not bigger bores. It SHOULD fly right, but it would be reassuring if someone would be able to test these in the US in a CZ 416 Rigby first.

Tan,

That might require a dual test...Michael in the bullet box with his faster twist rifle and RIP (I think he has a slow twist Rigby CZ rifle but not positive) doing some 50yd accuracy outdoor testing with a slow twist rate rifle.

The Rigby I am getting is a CZ. I could allow it to be out of my stables temporarily for testing of new bullets if necessary.

While I get the 230gr .375, I can't wrap my head around a 275gr .416. I could sooner see a 300gr/.416.

500gr/.620..........Reinvention of the FLYING ASHTRAY???

Well a 600 grain Raptor would be cool. 500 is a bit too light I guess. What did you want to eviscerate with it? Maybe get a group order going with the other fellow 600 club.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
While I get the 230gr .375, I can't wrap my head around a 275gr .416. I could sooner see a 300gr/.416.

500gr/.620..........Reinvention of the FLYING ASHTRAY???

Drew,

The original thinking was that the larger the diameter bore the heavier (higher SD) the Raptor could be made. Unfortunately this thinking ran up against the 'traditional' and 'standard' twist rates used in BB rifles which resulted in bullet instability. So unless your rifle has a really-fast twist rate; .i.e., way less than a 12" twist rate, the Raptors having a SD greater than .205 SD will not stabilize.

Michael's 12" twist rate .500 caliber barrels will stabilize a 350gr ESP Raptor (.200 SD) with Talon Tip Inserted but will not stabilize the 400gr ESP Raptor (.229 SD) with Talon Tip inserted. This caliber bullet selection gives us a very good indicator of how the BB Raptor bullets will function - but for most BB calibers a 12" twist rate is much faster than 'traditional' twist rates. Hopefully my 9" twist rate .500 caliber barrel will stabilize the 400gr Tipped Raptor thereby giving us a better benchmark range for Raptor bullet weights.

I personally do not have confidence that the traditional 16"-16.5" twist rates will accurately stabilize ESP Raptor bullets greater than 0.206 SD with Talon Tips inserted. - Sentence Edited

Now of all things I have a cold or something! DAMN. Sick of being sick!

Anyway, trying to keep up--416s the first Raptors we are going to try are 300 grs. If that works, fine, if not, then drop the weight until it does. Raptors up to .510 caliber, no plans on Raptors above .510 right now. Special orders welcomed as always however.

Back to bed!
M

No rest for the wicked aye
Get well soon Michael
The 1 in 14 traditional twist has me thinking 275 grains might be the way to go. Maybe see if Dan can run samples of 300, 275 and 250 weight so stability/performance testing can be more comprehensive?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
No rest for the wicked aye
Get well soon Michael
The 1 in 14 traditional twist has me thinking 275 grains might be the way to go. Maybe see if Dan can run samples of 300, 275 and 250 weight so stability/performance testing can be more comprehensive?

Yes, Michael's 416's are 1 in 14" if I remember, and that is typical today, but the traditional twist in the 416 Rigby was a slower 16.5". Slower twists need shorter bullets. So while I would feel better with the secDensity of the 275 grain over 250 grain, the 250 may need to be tested, too, for those with the CZ 416Rigby barrels.

As for Michael's cold, everyone on AR says that big bores will blow the snot out of you
sei gesund.

New Matching Stocks? PICTURES PICTURES PICTURES!
(Please?!)

quote:

Originally posted by Stockbroker:
New Matching Stocks? PICTURES PICTURES PICTURES!
(Please?!)

As soon as I get the two new matching rifles that go into those matching stocks I will bring up the B&M thread and post them there. Rifles are due to arrive sometime this week.

Also, will break down and put that bamboo stock of yours on for all to gawk at as well.

Working on your 9.3 brass too, and 50 B&M Super short ammo.

M

Shucks, you're amazing for a guy that's taken far to many blows the the upper body!

Non-Con update from "Down Under"

Gents- a few months back I raved about how well 255/9.3 and 275/375 Non-Cons did on boars in Australia, both loaded to 'only' around 2,500 fps. The 9.3x62 was in a 24" Steyr; the .376 Steyr was in a 20" ProHunter.

Some ammo for the 9.3 was left behind, and this is how it worked for another hunter on BIG critters.

A scrub bull (feral cattle they don't want breeding with the livestock) was shot at around 75 yards, in the shoulder as he quartered to the left, in about an 8 o'clock-2 o'clock orientation. DROPPED AT THE SHOT! The 9.3mm/255 Non-Con broke the near shoulder, two ribs going in, and broke the spine/backbone- the remaining base did not exit, but could not be found. He was a monster, at an honest 2,000 lbs. Shooter said you could put your finger in the hole in the near shoulder blade!

A 1,400 ~ 1,600 lb bull was shot perfectly broadside at around 70 yards, again with the 'little' 255/9.3, in heavy brush. He trotted off about 60 yards, and was fully expired when the shooter got to him. The 255 Non-Con broke the near shoulder blade, broke a rib going in, wrecked the inside, broke a rib on the far side... exited the FAR SHOULDER BLADE... and whizzed off across the Outback!

FYI- on the 9.3/255 Non-Con, the remaining base is 'only' about 200 grains.

So guys... don't loose any sleep, wondering if your 275/375, 325 or 370/416, 420/458 or 450/500 is going to work on LARGE HEAVY GAME!

After shooting other monolithic expanding bullets for almost 25 years, I am an NCC for life! - Non-Con Convert!!! - I really like the sound of that!

Load them up, head out and good hunting...

Gentlemen, The most knowledgeable "expert" of all things hunting, shooting, optics (and everything else) if you believe him, has pontificated AGAIN.
I received my latest issue of reloader yesterday and read Terry Weiland's latest treatise on "slugs". As I read it, I could not help but believe he was taking a swing at the good guys at CEB and our learned ballistician Michael. His article touts some really good bullets, but then poo poos the NCHPs as a theory that just does not work. Maybe the good Dr. Michael should send him some colorful "non theorhetical" proof.

Alasken-Oz
Thanks for the report
I hope that a thumbs up here is not a thumbs down down under lol.
Terry Weiland's "theory" is proof he has not used them or is stuck in tradition or just in the tank for other bullets. I say we challenge him to actually use them and not pontificate theory based on nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by aliveincc:
Gentlemen, The most knowledgeable "expert" of all things hunting, shooting, optics (and everything else) if you believe him, has pontificated AGAIN.
I received my latest issue of reloader yesterday and read Terry Weiland's latest treatise on "slugs". As I read it, I could not help but believe he was taking a swing at the good guys at CEB and our learned ballistician Michael. His article touts some really good bullets, but then poo poos the NCHPs as a theory that just does not work. Maybe the good Dr. Michael should send him some colorful "non theorhetical" proof.

aliveincc

Reloader? Hmmmm? Would like to see that. I am afraid that one will see the Good Ole "Conventional" boys begin to stir a bit! You know, it's mighty hard for them to learn a new trick, after all they have been taught all their lives to find out they really are just full of crap, well, that don't sit so well you know! So the first defense is "Denial"! Can't be so! Then there are those that are in the back pockets of the big "Conventionals", and of course they are in "Denial" as well. So I expect you might even see more of this in the future. But not to concern yourselves--The Truth is Out There! And the Truth wins every time! This year there will be far more truth as many more take to the fields, and learn for themselves. Those around them will learn as well, those that have seen will also know the truth. I am afraid the "Cat is already Loose", and kitty won't be put back in the bag! Of course the likes of the old conventional crowd are scared--A NonCon will change everything they know, everything they ever knew, and everything to come! They scratch to remain "Inside The Box", as outside the box is unknown to them! It's already too late, the likes of you and me have seen the difference, know the difference, and won't be told otherwise.

Yes, of course, I would give them plenty of proof! Let them see if they can prove otherwise! LOL.........

Enjoy your Evening---and Alaskan Ox--Excellent Report, thank you---and boys, Alaskan-Ox he knows!

Michael

While it’d be nice to truly enlighten Terry Weiland’s readers, but he pontificates drivel while we read and see the CEB bullet results in testing AND in use against game animals. I personally don’t believe he worth wasting bullets on.

aliveincc,

Would that be the June 2012 issue of HANDLOADER?
Will look for it, thanks for the headsup.

Terry Wee-wee-land is wee-wee-ing in the Wheaties of the breakfast of champion shotputters, again, eh?
That means "sumbuddy who know" is doing something right.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
aliveincc,

Would that be the June 2012 issue of HANDLOADER?
Will look for it, thanks for the headsup.

Terry Wee-wee-land is wee-wee-ing in the Wheaties of the breakfast of champion shotputters, again, eh?
That means "sumbuddy who know" is doing something right.

Yes, Handloader-One of the very last ones that I still subscribe to, although I have to admit only for nostalgia I think. To the best of my knowledge I have every single issue of Handloader ever published. Long time subscriber, to this and Rifle as well. But, I also had an older chap here donate to me all of his issues of both going back to day one. Back in the days, a pretty good rag to look at. Today--Jesus, just how technical do we need to be loading 45 acp? Or 38spl? I can only take so much of that--it's been YEARs and I can't even recall the last decent article in Handloader? Same ole Same--I hardly ever take the plastic off, throw it in the pile with other rags. But I will pay particular attention to this one when it comes--Finally something at least of interest--even if its pure horse shit! Which is of no great surprise!


Received 45 boxes yesterday of brand new and improved .500 caliber NonCons!!!!! New Wide Cavity! 335--365--450, 335 Super Shorts--365 Lever Guns--450 Big Guns! I expect to start LVSP next week with them. I expect all to blow below 1700 fps impact. These, and the .510 will rap up LVSP for the big bores I think.

quote:

Received 45 boxes yesterday of brand new and improved .500 caliber NonCons!!!!! New Wide Cavity! 335--365--450, 335 Super Shorts--365 Lever Guns--450 Big Guns! I expect to start LVSP next week with them. I expect all to blow below 1700 fps impact. These, and the .510 will rap up LVSP for the big bores I think.

With the wide cavity will they still hold the new ogive-plastic-HollowPoint Talons?

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Received 45 boxes yesterday of brand new and improved .500 caliber NonCons!!!!! New Wide Cavity! 335--365--450, 335 Super Shorts--365 Lever Guns--450 Big Guns! I expect to start LVSP next week with them. I expect all to blow below 1700 fps impact. These, and the .510 will rap up LVSP for the big bores I think.

With the wide cavity will they still hold the new ogive-plastic-HollowPoint Talons?

The New Talon HP Tips are designed for the new Wide Cavity. The 350 Raptors that I used, with the new tips, are the exact same New Cavity size. So yes. The 350 Raptor was designed with the new wide cavity. Same as these BBW#13 NoNCons.

Michael

I just received my issue of Handloader June 2012.

aliveincc is 100% spot on. Little Terry Wee Wee is taking a "Shot across the Bow" so to speak.

The POS article is directed to the competition to sell premium bullets. He says some of the claims made leaves one to wonder if these people are on the same planet, goverend by the same laws of physics.

He goes to explain how good conventional bullets work of course Nosler, Swift, Woodleighs, Bear Claws and so forth.

Here are some direct quotes from the article;

quote:

The myth that a disintegrating bullet spins off projectiles that penetrate in all directions, wreaking havoc as they go. For years, disintegration of any big game bullet has been an outcome to be avoided at all costs. Now we find it promoted as a virtue.

Having dug many bullets out of many animals, to say nothing of penetration boxes under controlled conditions, I have pieced back together many a disintegrated slug. Where did I find the pieces that broke off? Lying in the wound channel, accomplishing exactly nothing. They don't have enough weight to penetrate anywhere, and theeir irregular shape means they come to a halt almost instantly.

As an aside, even if the shards did go off in all directions, it would be completely haphazard, with no way to control, or predict it. No experienced hunter wants a bullet whose performance, either in the air or in the animal, is random and unpredictable.

quote:

Now we have a bullet maker who claims his bullets are machined to NASA-level tolerances on CNC machinery, and that they "Expend all their energy in the animal," then leave a large exit wound. Huh?

The second part of this killing power equation is that the bullet expands and flings 4 claws that fly through the animal like shrapnel, leaving chaos in their wake, while the rest of the bullet goes right on through. This is accompanied by DVDs, elaborate websites, and astounding tales of a dozen straight one-shot kills on Cape Buffalo using this bullet that--wonder of wonders--accomplishes these feats by doing exactly those things that John Nosler Designed the partition to do in 1948.

Of course no names were mentioned. Now I can't say for sure who Wee Wee is talking about, but it does ring somewhat familiar, except he does not have his facts straight, at least not in our case. Seems he might be on a mission to discredit. Also seems to me if I were a bullet maker, and had a paid advert in this very magazine, I might have to call the publishers up and have a heart to heart talk with them before pulling my advert dollars? Also seems to me that Wee Wee could have at least got a few of the facts straight, as in the advert, in this very magazine, it specifically mentions 6 petals-- and NOT "4 Claws". Of course, it's really a moot point, as nothing else in the article is of merit anyway. Wee Wee expert on all, has now showed not only his ignorance, but clearly looks like a smear job on bullet tech. Regardless of whether it was directed to CEB or not, it's insulting to say the least! Wee Wee--Lets just continue to use the same old shit we been using for the last 100 years--there is no need to improve anything, stay conventional, remain in the box, and continue to show your stupidity and ignorance.

I think I will write a letter and pull my subscription. Obviously there is nothing of merit in this magazine any longer. Ask yourselves this question. Handloader Magazine! Opposed to new ideas of the main component of handloading--the most important component of handloading--the bullet? Trashing new ideas? Trashing new tech? Because it does not fit the mold of Conventional Wisdom? What does this magazine have to offer then? Not much--Not Much at all!


Yes, letter leaving tomorrow, canceling my subscription to this crap.


Michael

He never tested them it seems
He just went off what he did on conventional bullets.
It's been proven over and over. We should challenge him to test them and show him the proof. Maybe a full article and retraction. He obviously did not read the article from Chuck Hawks who actually TRIED the bullets and said THE BULLET ACTED AS ADVERTISED.

quote:

He never tested them it seems

Boomy--I don't think he has even seen them--much less tested or laid hands on. He might have seen the DVD and that is it. And he can't even get the facts straight to begin with--its totally obvious he does not have a clue as to what he is talking about period.

M

Send him the 4x4 with the 'cone of death' blown out the back of it and ask him if the petals work or not.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Send him the 4x4 with the 'cone of death' blown out the back of it and ask him if the petals work or not.

"Cone of Death". Is more descriptive than my "Circle of death"


I have a feeling he put his foot in his mouth so far he will just hop around like the black night saying "merely a flesh wound". Some people cannot admit wrong or defeat and I think he is that type.

Wieland

He is a moron, he has absolutely no clue as to what he is saying, he does not understand, and has not even bothered to attempt to understand. His statements are wrong to say the least.

In speaking of the "Blades" as I call them, he says they do not have enough weight to penetrate. This is right and wrong. The blades DO NOT DEPEND on weight to penetrate, they slice their way through tissue. I studied this to begin with, the blades weigh from 6-10 grs, not enough weight to do anything--yet they penetrate from the 2 inch shear point, sometimes up to 10 inches in MY test medium. That is up to 8 inches of penetration for a 6-10 gr projectile. Hell, a 125 gr 38 spl can't go 6 inches in this test medium! The blades cannot do it--yet it does it time after time. How is this possible? They slice and cut their way through, both test medium, and animal tissue. On both the hartebeast I shot, blades passed completely through lungs and vitals and were found on the far side chest cavity wall. Slice and Dice!

Terry Wieland--WRONG AGAIN.

Wieland says if shards did go off in all directions, as he puts it, it would be haphazard, no control, no way to predict it. Sorry Terry--Full of shit on this one too! It's so damned predictable it does it 100% of the time, every single time, every single caliber, cartridge, bullet weight, and it does not matter if its raining, or the sun is shining--100% of the time, exact same behavior--Test medium, animal tissue--Does not matter--Anyone out there that cares to test, you will get the exact same results I have had here, every time, time after time. Remember, I have shot 1000s of these, how many has Wieland shot? How many has he tested? How many animals has he shot with them?

Terry Wieland---WRONG AGAIN.

4 Claws? Now first it's "shards", now its "Claws", and now its 4, not 6. Fly through animal like shrapnel--shards, claws, shrapnel? He is confused I suppose. "Astounding Tales"---Don't know where he gets that from, his own imagination I suppose. Dozen buffalo? Guess he is making more shit up. Exactly like a Nosler Partition--Very wrong--not even in the same ball park, but for one that has not seen and has no concept I suppose that's all they can imagine, but not so at all.

Fact of the matter is this. Terry wieland, I do hope you are looking in and visit us here at AR--Do take Note--Michael says you are full of shit and know nothing about nothing--and run your mouth off and have totally made a fool of yourself! Now if you care to, you would be welcome to come here and get a proper education, but you would eat every word you wrote as well, I would see to it!

Terry Wieland





Michael

How can the magazine be deemed credible if the reviewers merely pontificate about new bullets and technologies they have not tested?!?!?!!
I think a few letters, calls and emails need to be sent to the magazine and have the bullets tested by another writer and have the results posted rather than just an uneducated guess put into print. This is not so much about Terry Weiland as it is about the magazines and CEB's reputation. I will demand a test and retraction for an opportunity for them to save face. The proof is all over. All he needed to do was check and he never did that.

Long before this, I have been calling him Terry Wee-wee-land.
Full of piss and vinegar and feces, supercilious, elitist, extended pinky-finger kind of guy.
His writiing has always left a sour stench in the recollections of this bubba.
Barsness is a better writer, they need to turn that column over to him, in the current crop of writers.
Seyfried was much better.
Aagaard long gone was lightyears ahead of Wieland in judgement and integrity.
To Terry: (my first use of this new emoticon here at ar.com)

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Long before this, I have been calling him Terry Wee-wee-land.
Full of piss and vinegar and feces, supercilious, elitist, extended pinky-finger kind of guy.
His writiing has always left a sour stench in the recollections of this bubba.
Barsness is a better writer, they need to turn that column over to him, in the current crop of writers.
Seyfried was much better.
Aagaard long gone was lightyears ahead of Wieland in judgement and integrity.
To Terry: (my first use of this new emoticon here at ar.com)

________________________________________

I agree, I thought Seyfried was one of the best, especially in his open mindedness to look for better things.

DocM,
This Wee Wee person is living in the past or having his pockets lined by those who wish to live in the past. Just ignore him. Old Indian saying "When an elephant walks past, the jackals bark". I think what you have done in your testing, and what has been seen in the field, proves without any doubt that CEB claims are valid. I rest my case your honor.
Regards

Michael,

What is the old saying about new discoveries of truth?

First it will be denied.
Second it will be ridiculed.
Third it will be embraced!

The same thing happened with the Barnes X. Remember the outcry of denial when it first hit the scene. "All the rifles that wouldn't group them" comments? I've loaded 12 different chamberings for 23 different rifles (many of mine, some of my friends) and have NEVER found a rifle that wouldn't shoot them with a properly cleaned barrel (by the way, those rifles wouldn't group anything else either with fouled rifling). All the other "premium" bullets suddenly were obsolete! The scathing reviews of the X bullet color the opinions of many still to this day as they cling to the pseudo premium Partition which I have seen separate into fragments similar to the "CoreLockt" bullet on numerous occasions.

Only time will provide the necessary validation of the new CEB design. Your recent trip as well as the other reports, have generated a great start to that validation process. As you said, many more will hit the fields this year and continue the process. Some will be reluctant to give them a try and think outside the box, all the while shooting DGX, Partitions, and the narrow velocity restricted Woodleigh.

Take it as a compliment that the CEB Non-Con design is being disrespected. The ridicule shows it has the conventional manufacturers and their pitchmen worried. If that was not the case, Wee-Wee would have passed it off like this: instead of this:

I have no dog in this fight, lest anyone draw the wrong conclusion. But I'm not a traditionalist. I use what works best as my opinion is formed. I think the 500/416 is superior to the 450/400 based on the ballistic numbers. I think the K-Gun's cocking device is safer than the traditional safety. I embraced the X and later TSX bullets as I saw what they do, believed in them, and still do, as I have never seen one fail; not once! I have personally seen DGX, Partition, Corelockt bullets fail. The latter 2 being what drove me to the X bullet in the first place. I never saw the GrandSlam fail but felt the X was a better design. Similar to the position I now find myself in with switching to the CEBs. Point being that I'm the type of fellow that will give something new a try if I'm convinced it offers an improvement. I think I can also recognize trash when I see it: (Blaser S2! ); Sorry Dave!

I've followed the bullet threads here on AR in depth. I'm no expert by any means but have come to some conclusions. First, I'm not convinced that any of the currently manufactured bullets are unsafe for use in modern double rifles. Especially when most manufacturers regulate their rifles with the very bullets that produce the second and third highest barrel strains (DGX and DGS). However, if there is an option available that produces significantly lower stress on the barrels, why not opt for it assuming the bullet's performance is reliable? On top of that, the extensive terminal testing shows superior performance in both the test medium and at this point, limited field testing on game. With those two things going for the CEB's, why would anyone not give them a shot (no pun intended)? My experience with them so far in my big bore rifles and doubles is limited to the range where they have demonstrated exceptional accuracy! So with the trifecta of Accuracy, Reports of Superior Terminal Performance, and Measurably lower barrel strains, I've chosen to head to the field with a new bullet for the first time in more than 15 years. I'm looking forward to adding my experiences with the CEB's to the mix. Black Bear in May, Moose in September, and Elephant / Buffalo in October. I figure after that I'll either be a convert or it'll be back to Barnes.

I've staked out some strong positions in this post but please do realize, this is a subject about the things we do for fun. So go ahead and away. I'll be right here:

Interesting the integrity of firearms writers isn’t it.

In one situation we four shooters from Guns and Shooting Online including the writer who actually shot the CEB bullets for accuracy, tested their performance, and end their report, “Cutting Edge Bullets has taken their solid brass bullets to the next level. The bullets function so well that I could see building a custom chambered rifle around them, especially a medium or big bore safari rifle in 9.3mm, .375, .416 or .458.”

In another situation we have a dip weed, Terry Wieland, In Range segment, Slugging it Out article, Handloader magazine, who claims CEB bullet performance is hyperbole without having shot a single CEB bullet; he does however claim to have viewed CEB’s marketing CD.

Todd you make some very good points.

Here's the thing, Wee Wee obviously has zero experience with a NonCon--regardless of. He has zero concept of how they work, and cannot possibly have a concept of how they work without having used them, tested them, or at the very least attempted to get more information concerning how they work, and how the conclusions were made to begin with. He has NOT DONE HIS HOMEWORK---Yet he spouts off at the mouth as if he knows something, and is "The Expert" on such matters.

Well, of course if one is drilled and stuck in the "Conventional Wisdom" box, then that is what one is to conclude. Only 6 or so years ago--I was in that box myself. I started out of the box and began to learn about how a NonCon works in 2009. Not so long ago in the jest of things! I would say that there is no one on Planet Earth that has a better understanding of how a real NonCon works than what we do right here, we have been there since Ground Zero, have learned together, both through consistent and EXTENSIVE test work, sweat, toil, and good ole fashion hard work, that continues. Once it was determined that this indeed looked great in the test work, it was taken to the field for further study--In which in every single bullet fired and tested in the field, has been a total success and yet again more has been learned from field study of how they actually work, and some of the very very unique characteristics of how a NonCon actually does it's job, which is far different than any conventional bullet ever made.

Of course I am not the only one to have taken the NonCons to the field, and not the first on our current crop of BBW#13 NonCons. They have been sent out to several others, all reporting the same. One of the first to come to mind is Sams friend Doug taking now I think 4 buffalo with the 416 325s--with nothing but the highest praise from both his PH--Testimonial right here many pages ago last November or so! Doug also used the then new .308 130 Raptor on many species of plains game--PH thought it was so damned good he wanted to shoot a hippo on land with it! My God--That exceeds what I might even consider! I have loaded the 130 Raptor in 308 for a friend of mine here that took 1 deer with it last fall, results the same, totally devastating. Between one of my best of friends and Sam they have shot a dozen deer last year with the various 223 BBW#13s and Raptors---All stone cold dead--and both have that same old comment we all hear every time "I Have never seen anything Like it"--Common comment! There are others.

My own trip last year in which I shot 7 buffalo--2 bulls--5 cows if that makes a difference, all with BBW#13 NonCons--Totally incredible performance, and I learned even more from that trip of how the blades work with the bullet for those first 5-6 inches of penetration into the body cavity--this showed in the test work, but I did not recognize it until the field study last year! The devastating effect that the bullets had on buffalo, croc, and the one thin skinned animal I shot the waterbuck was undeniable. Even poor shots I made were devastating, and saved the day very quickly on one buffalo that was pure gut shot by myself--pulled up short after a 75-100 yard run, stood long enough for me to work my way around for a chest shot at close range that ended the affair before it even got started! Who ever heard of a gut shot Buffalo pulling up short, so sick he could not go further--in less than a 100 yards? Not me! Lot's of damage done and internal stress. I saw buffalo hearts with 1.5-2 inch diameter holes completely through the heart with a 420 gr .458 caliber BBW#13 NonCon at 2250 fps at the muzzle, impact at 35 yds! I had never seen anything like that before--and that's when I realized the blades were working with the bullet while they remained close to the center bullet, ripping, tearing, and totally destroying tissue! I saw one buffalo heart last year very nearly cleaved in half by that 460 BBW#13 NonCon in the 500 MDM. I saw things I had never seen before, and I have shot a few buffalo in my day, ain't my first rodeo.

I did not imagine this, this is real;





Penetration? Wee Wee states that when a bullet breaks up, penetration is decreased, it's a failure. I concur with that statement 100%, in referring to Conventional Lead Core bullets. The very reason they are called NonCons---Short for Non-Conventional, is that they do not adhere to Conventional Rules and Wisdom. In fact, in many cases they do just the opposite.

A 420 gr BBW#13 NonCon frontal chest shot buffalo cow--this is the bullet that ripped the 2 inch diameter hole through the heart--proceeded through the chest cavity, and completely through all the stomach and its contents and was found on the far side of the stomach! A feat NO CONVENTIONAL bullet of 458 caliber would be capable of, regardless of weight. Perhaps a TSX would have made it into the stomach, but I think not beyond, although not 100% positive of that. Other conventional premiums would not have. I have recovered 500 Swifts and Woodleighs from broadside shots on buffalo! A 420 gr bullet to begin with--much less after the shear! Exactly the sort of penetration I found in the test work--far exceeding any conventional bullet. Penetration IS NOT COMPROMISED. I am a penetration nut, as most know, I would not ever sacrifice penetration for anything.


I did not imagine this either;





BaxterB was here when we did some of the very first tests driving through 4X4s and wood to see if they deflect. What we saw on a 4X4 Treated post was incredible--the blades sheared exactly as they did in the test medium, and in animal tissue, and was totally destructive on that, clearing seeing the path of the blades all the way through and exit a 4x4 piece of treated! Animals are not made of wood of course, but does show once again the penetration of the blades themselves, and how they work with the center bullet, even blowing massive holes in dry hard materials. All of these tiny blades exited the back of the 4x4--you saw this as well last fall, right here.

Todd, your discovery of truths is........ Well, very Truthful to say the least. Denial--first response. Ridicule, second as we see with Wee Wee now. Third once even more field data comes in from all corners--Embraced. I believe that many are going to the field with NonCons this coming year--in all corners of the world. I know you are as well--Please Please Please once you take to the field, come to this thread and share your experience with all of us! With your experience over many years, your thoughts, opinions, and evaluation is very important.

And that goes for everyone, if you go to the field with a NonCon, report back what you find. If you know someone that went to the field with a NonCon, report their findings.

Todd--Curious, black bear May--What rifle/cartridge/bullet? Moose Sept--Same? Elephant/Buffalo--I think 500 Nitro and BBW#13 Solids/NonCon---New NonCon ready for testing, soon as I receive them by the way! For that LVSP--Low Velocity Shear Point--I am almost 99% sure it is going down to 1600 fps now---but we will see for sure long before you go. That is if I am correct on that you are using that bullet.

We continue to learn about NonCons---even this very last little shoot I returned from I learned even more. As I studied the entrance wounds, they were every time larger than the exits. Exits nothing to sneeze at but entrance wounds were incredible. No, they did not blow up on the skin, in every case, 15 animals, there was a slightly larger than caliber size hole going in the skin, inside the chest wall cavity a much larger hole where the blades had started to shear and work--large cavities going through the first side, and sometimes second side of vitals depending on the size of the animal--blades slicing and dicing through lungs and other vitals, and sometimes going completely through the vitals to be found in the far side chest cavity wall, 3-5 inches from center bullet exit. EXACTLY as they do here in the test work--every single time--100% of the time, all the time, consistently every time--unless of course you are below LVSP. NOT one damned thing haphazard or inconsistent about it, animal tissue or test medium!

Did I just imagine that these blades sliced through these lungs and become stuck in the far side of the opposite chest cavity wall?





Come the end of May we will have both Dan and his son Nathan in South Africa on a plains game hunt. This will be their first time, they will be with Andrew, well versed in bullet study as I have taught him for many years now. Dan and Nathan will be in good hands. Nathan will be using his 458 B&M and the 295 gr BBW#13 NonCon, Dan will be using a Rat Gun 300 WSM and that 130 gr ESP Raptor. While Dan does not subscribe to .308 for much of this sort of work, and would rather be up to at least 338, it comes down to a serious test of how a NonCon can improve not only the big bore calibers we use, but small bore and medium as well. I have encouraged Dan to really put the little 130 ESP Raptor to the test. It's already been to Africa last year with incredible success from what we hear, but this time we will get a more in depth study of the effects and how it does work. Same with the 295 .458 NonCon. I suspect we will learn much from this.

As for Wee Wee, I cannot fathom how a magazine specializing in Hand Loading, could possibly allow an article such as Wee Wee's to ridicule, make light of, and dismiss totally anything that is new, without having any understanding of, or no measure of understanding of the product or even product idea directly related to performance and enhancement of performance? What the hell is the magazine for to begin with? If not to introduce new ideas, and products to the shooting public? And to review these products objectively to begin with, and then from actual test results give true and proper reports. Regardless of product. I can't review a product without having first tested it? Of course I don't get paid for reviews either. Wee Wee does not only slam NonCon tech, he also slams other bullets, some of which I can guess, some of which I have no knowledge of. He mentions no names at all of course, but to me its pretty clear of who and what in a couple of cases.

I think we hold onto this article for future reference. Why? The trend with NonCons will continue, I am sure of it. They will become more and more known, understood, and used. I can tell you this, once used, once seen in the field, that will be pretty much the end of it, and that will be all you want from then on. It has been the case each and every single time of all the folks I personally know of. If you use this--You will want more! As this continues to grow, at some point it will be embraced as Todd says, by the masses. The masses right now just don't know. Wee Wee's credibility is going to suffer over this one. It has already with many that know better, but then we here on AR are exceptional, and nothing much common about us. The masses that read the bunk are much more susceptible to being duped by the so called "Expert" Wee Wee. We know he is full of shit to put it bluntly---but they don't yet. Sooner or later, what credibility will he have left? Has zero or less with me now. At least most of the gun writers that I know personally, they don't spout off too much about things they don't know about. They may not know or understand many things related to what we do here, but I have been educating some of them a bit, and they are learning. Still reluctant, but learning and keeping their mouths shut until they learn more. Wee Wee--Just stupid is all, arrogant, know it all full of shit, self important weeny! I think that is a wrap!

Now, to more important issues!
Lets go shoot!

M

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RIP:

Barsness is a better writer, they need to turn that column over to him, in the current crop of writers.
Seyfried was much better.
Aagaard long gone was lightyears ahead of Wieland in judgement and integrity.

Sad to say, Barsness seems to have turned into quite an elitist, and holds his opinion in high regard with little consideration for new or improved. His article last year on riflestocks
("Rifle Stock Design"-May/June 2011 SPORTS AFIELD) essentially inferred nothing new has come out in stock design or technology since the 1960's. Kind inquiries to consider otherwise were met with dead silence and high-brow attitude. Just sayin.
Would love to hear from other readers that don't think Barsness is full of himself, or that he treats them like real people???

Michael,

I'll certainly report back after taking the CEBs to the field this year. The May Black Bear will be in Idaho, using my 9.3X74R double, September Moose in Alaska, I'm thinking the 375H&H. I don't agree with most that the 375 is the perfect caliber for Africa but that stainless, synthetic stocked M-70, 375 seems to be the perfect weapon for hunting Alaska or Kamchatka where the big deer roam in Brownie country! Zim in Oct, well yeah, 500NE as well as the 9.3X74R again.

Headed to NZ in June as well but between work and play, I just don't have time to get up to speed, so to speak, on the rat calibers for that hunt so I'm sticking with the TTSX there. 9.3 and 500 are all worked up and set to go with Non-Cons. The Moose thing just popped up within the last couple of weeks so I haven't gotten the 375 outfitted with CEB yet. Got plenty of time to remedy that however.

I know when you put your heart and soul into a project that breaks new ground, it rips you up when someone who doesn't believe in your concept shines you on. But that is the nature of revolutionary designs. I'm sure when the first 6 shot revolver was introduced, some expert commented, "you mean I've got to take the time to load ALL THOSE CHAMBERS, no sir, I'll stick to loading and shooting one at a time". Take the dissing as a compliment. As elitist as he is, you got enough of his attention to fluster him into a hasty response that will not hold up to scrutiny.

DocM,

Old Indian saying "When an elephant walks past, the jackals bark".

I think what you have done in your testing, and what has been seen in the field, proves without any doubt that CEB claims are valid.

What more is there left to say? Sure some fine tuning for a particular caliber and so on...however, what you and others have demonstrated in the field leaves no doubt that the CEBs work as claimed! End of story.

As I said earlier, jackals bark!

I would say Wieland has a ghost writer from the local middle school. That got there notes mixed up....LOL...

I see you had a great trip Michael.

Sure wish a 7mm Raptor would come out, the wife is getting low on Barnes. And would like to try them out on bears.

Although I subscribe to the concept of "knowing thine enemy", I stopped reading anything written by Terry Weiland a long time ago. It's just not worth the time and there isn't enough Nexium to stem the reflux

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Although I subscribe to the concept of "knowing thine enemy", I stopped reading anything written by Terry Weiland a long time ago. It's just not worth the time and there isn't enough Nexium to stem the reflux

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Famocid perhaps lmao

I tell you boys, all of you, shooters and hunters, this is a hell of a fine bunch of chaps! I don't waste my time on nothing but the best, and right here our little group of AR fellows are as good as it gets, the best and the brightest! We have some very sharp individuals here!

on Wee Wee---We got better things to do, he will get his in the end!


Todd--Black bear, 9.3 sounds good. 375 moose--look at the 230 Raptor and bump that velocity up. Zim--500NE and 9.3, again good to go. Soon as I get the new wider cavity .510 NonCons I will go to work on the LVSP and report. Should be next week.

I am going to put a box together this afternoon and get it soaking and might just start LVSP in the morning with the 3 new .500s with the wider cavity. And Coyote, starting with the new 335 BBW#13 NonCon SS--Super Short! Should be of particular interest to you very soon! There is a 7mm Raptor--but I know crap about it--I don't do 7mm, don't do anything between .264 and .308, and I don't like those too much either! LOL...........

Esskay, Doc, Jim, RIP, Coyote, Boomy, Stockbroker, aliveincc, Andy, Baxter, Tanz, Todd and all, thanks for the support as always! You guys make it all worth the effort!

My goals coming up are to get all these LVSP finished, get the new tips in, make sure tips are working at LVSP as well. Almost got the big bores whipped--then I want to work on the two 308 bullets, 100/130 and then the 338s 175/200--LVSP with tips. This done it will be very close to completed my end of things with the Raptors and BBW#13 NonCons LVSPs. I think the cavity change on the .500s and .510 will be the last tweak needed on any of the big bores as well.

Soon as I get all this put together I will post it on the B&M site in .pdf for all of you to get, so you know the low point at which your bullet is going to work proper. I think a very important point. Another Non-Conventional point--there is no upper end to velocity! Just a lower!



Starting to think about Australia a bit and what I am taking there with my boys! Crap--got 4 rifles to rig and get ready, along with lot's of ammo, what bullets, this and that--here we go again!

Michael

Michael you have no reason to thank the peanut gallery. We have been blessed these past 41½ month to set back and watch the truly amazing efforts that Sam, Dan, and especially you have put into this ‘within-mass straight-line penetration journey’ to reach this point where we now have verified bullet manufacturers that we can patronize with the full assurance that their products will not fall us when time to pull-the-trigger arrives. Any efforts on our parts are nothing more than putting the sprinkles on top the icing; you three constructed everything beneath.

Also thanks to Boomy for slinging stuff against the wall on a regular basis…LOL…the ESP Raptors stuck and are turning out to be a truly fine bullets; time will tell just how multipurpose they are.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael you have no reason to thank the peanut gallery. We have been blessed these past 41½ month to set back and watch the truly amazing efforts that Sam, Dan, and especially you have put into this ‘within-mass straight-line penetration journey’ to reach this point where we now have verified bullet manufacturers that we can patronize with the full assurance that their products will not fall us when time to pull-the-trigger arrives. Any efforts on our parts are nothing more than putting the sprinkles on top the icing; you three constructed everything beneath.

Also thanks to Boomy for slinging stuff against the wall on a regular basis…LOL…the ESP Raptors stuck and are turning out to be a truly fine bullets; time will tell just how multipurpose they are.

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Well said. All we have done is watch in awe the fantastic work that has been done! The tests and then the various field results to validate the test work!

Great stuff Doc M, and your friends Boomy, Sam, RIP et al

Regards