Just got a couple of verbal reports from my buddy John Mock and his 50 B&M Super Short, two deer down, stone cold dead, 345 gr BBW#13 NonCons. one at 20 yards, bullet nicked a 2 inch pine limb, hit deer in guts. Dead deer, will get more details on that, but sounds like a big mess inside.

Second deer 125 yards, frontal angle, out the other shoulder, all blades exited 3 inches from center wound channel, of course bullet exited. DRT--dropped immediately. Massive trauma and damage inflicted.

Another buddy shot a deer with the 223 BBW#13. John is going now to help him find it. Yes, sounds like a bad shot last night to me. If they find it this morning, I will have a better report on that. Seems when you drop to the tiny rat calibers, even with a BBW#13, you still have to put it in the front half, not the rear half! Shot placement is still of great importance guys! Gotta get it in the right place!

Michael

What is so cool IMHO is with the medium and small bores thanks to CEB the amazing performance of the BBW13 solid and non con will be accessible to the masses since so few shoot big bores. With the hollow point velocity is a friend so is a lower weight for caliber. It will take some doing to get people to accept that a .2 SD will out perform a .3 SD. I think the 225 grain Raptor is designed with the 338 Lapua in mind. A 180 grain 338 would be great too!

quote:

I think the 225 grain Raptor is designed with the 338 Lapus in mind. A 180 grsinn 338 would be great too!

Lupus? Lapus? Sounds like a really bad thing you catch when you do things you are not supposed to do! Hmmmm? HEH.... I think I get the jest of it. I am interested in how long the 225 338 Raptor will be. I was thinking originally at 200 grs. We will see. But yes, 180-200 would do a lot.

I am really busting for the 230 9.3--that will be, could be, THE bullet all around do everything for the 9.3 B&M. Just gotta see if it goes in the magazine.......

I concur, the Raptors will change the way folks think, if they keep an open mind and try them! It's a new world out there! It's hard to change old ideas, and hard to jump out of the box!

Michael

I believe determining the Bullet weight first and then making the bullet to allow that weight is the wrong way to do it.

I believe the "best" methodology for determining "optimum" weight by caliber is to first determine the maximum bullet length that will properly function from the magazine for the specific target internal magazine length by specific action - then let the bullet weights fall where they fall.

Anyway that's thinking.

Oh yes...Congrats Michael...the thread is still running 100 pages per year!

quote:

What you will see below is a repeat of a recent post I did on the 45/70 penetration thread.
I have some information that I would like to share, but to be honest it really needs to be on a thread unto itself. It is my hope that we can all learn from this, that we can have reasonable, logical, and intelligent conversation and share ideas, concepts and experiences in which we all can maybe learn something concerning terminal performance. It is an area that I have a great deal of interest in because in the end I believe that when it comes down to it, it's not the rifle, the cartridge, it's the bullet that does the work once it strikes the target.

From the first post done on November 3, 2009!

I think that we have done just what these first words stated at that time!

Look at what has been accomplished in such a short amount of time!



Jim

quote:

I believe the "best" methodology for determining "optimum" weight by caliber is to first determine the maximum bullet length that will properly function from the magazine for the specific target internal magazine length by specific action - then let the bullet weights fall where they fall.

This is exactly what is being done. But the problem is, all actions are not the same length. So in some cases I think we might fall short, or different, I don't know. ????? Just look at .224 and .257, throw in a WSSM action to boot? In .257 you have everything from the Super Shorts to the 257 Weatherby. On some bullets, just have to see.

M

quote:

[QUOTE]
I am really busting for the 230 9.3--that will be, could be, THE bullet all around do everything for the 9.3 B&M. Just gotta see if it goes in the magazine.......

Michael

I noticed that the CEB page goes from 338 to 375 for the Raptor listings. I hope you are right, that a 9.3mm (366) will be coming.

IBT

Dan mentioned the 9,3
Will be awesome for the 9,3philes.

boomstick and michael.

I been reading this post for to many pages i care to count and the info is great and the testing is beyond anything i have the opportunity to accoplish. For the medium and small bore ceb noncons has there been any testing with the 7mm at short range and is there any future in a .429 ceb non con for a carbine. Yes i know these are odd questions but for most of my hunting with rifle the medieum bores fit the bill and the 44 carbine is the unsung hero of the hard woods. Thanks again for the great posts

Matt

I think a 429 would be great in a non con but it would work in a 444 but to shear at 44 velocities some changes would be needed. If you call up CEB you could ask about an order of 429 lever action style. I would like to see a pistol version in both non con and BBW 13 profile for hunting and defense rounds. I have thought a lot about this and have a few ideas of how to make it work but that would mean prototypes and testing. With all this a big factor is cost and is there a market but if someone is willing I'm not short on crazy ideas A 200 grain flat point bore rider three band BBW #13 would be killer. Pun intended. One method I have thought of to lower impact velocity sheer is a larger hole and a flat point tip or rounded tip to duplicate the #13 profile but keep the same dimensions or slightly different for a round nose tip replacing say about half of the conical 13 degree portion to be the tip itself. Instead of a pointy talon tip it would be a blunt tip but aid expansion and the larger hole could sheer down to 44 velocities and maybe pistol velocities. Another help would be to make a larger funnel opening to the hole to obviously funnel in the pressure. If there is no edge but only a funnel all the force goes into sheering the petals and the blunt plastic tip would protect the sharp funnel edge. Think of it as a larger hole brass non con bore riding semi wadcutter with a 13 degree blunt tip. High BC is not needed since we are talking under 100 yards. Anyone up for prototypes and testing? Michael has his hands full with all the raptor testing for the next couple months I think. I sure hope he is enjoying it.

Sorry for the crude drawing but maybe this will help understand the concept of the hand gun velocity non con or pistol non con or PNC if you will.
The plastic blunt tip would replace part of the conical part with the radius edge and maximize the sheering funnel with the tip acting as a cam so to speak. What do you think?

quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:
boomstick and michael.

I been reading this post for to many pages i care to count and the info is great and the testing is beyond anything i have the opportunity to accoplish. For the medium and small bore ceb noncons has there been any testing with the 7mm at short range and is there any future in a .429 ceb non con for a carbine. Yes i know these are odd questions but for most of my hunting with rifle the medieum bores fit the bill and the 44 carbine is the unsung hero of the hard woods. Thanks again for the great posts

Matt

Hey Matt

If you posted with us before, then forgive me, my mind is going fast! LOL.... If not, then we are glad to have you, and thanks for the input. 7mm Raptors are coming. I don't own a 7 anything, so we will be testing this in one of Sams rifles the next couple of weeks.

As for .429 and some others. Well, we are looking at that for the near future. Like Boomy says, we enter a different world of mostly very low velocity. So what works in rifles, will not work in typical handgun cartridges. Lot's of work ahead on this to see what can and can't be done. But this will be after all the Raptors are sorted out first, then some Carnivores, which 416, 458, .500 Carnivores are done as far as I am concerned. A couple more larger bore Carnivores and that is complete. Raptors first, then finish Carnivores, then on to other projects, such as low velocity .429s, .451s, .454s and so forth.

Boomy, hold those thoughts, and we also have some ideas from Hog Killer, and Dan and Myself have been chatting about it as well.

Coming Soon!

M

I recently had Benchmark build me a 450 Ultra Magnum with a 26" , 14 twist Lilja barrel. Michael458 helped a bunch with load data for load development. ( Thanks Michael). I took it to the field for the fist time this fall to hunt Elk here in Washington State. Bellow is the first animal I have taken with this rifle.

The shot was across a steep canyon at 300 yards, I was shooting a (.458) 350gr Speer HotCore @ 2800 fps, on top of 96gr of Win748 and a Fed 215. The bull was head down feeding when he was hit, he dropped in his tracks and didn't move the least bit after impact. I recovered the bullet just under the hide on the off side. The recovered bullet pictured weighed 248.4 grains.







This is the bullet entrance.

Smack,

Nice elk! Plain Jane bullets work too!

Sam

Smack

Great report! Congratulations on a wonderful success! That 350 Speer has been a favorite of mine since testing it some time ago, in both the 458 B&M SS, and the 458 B&M. Of course, much lower velocity than what you were running.

Do you have an estimated BC to know what the impact velocity might have been? Anyone???

In my tests you see below I retained a little more weight than what Smack did on the elk, any bone hit, rib or anything? Just curious in comparing is all.

Sam, you are correct, conventional bullets do work still! HEH....... There are some conventionals I still like very much. This is one of them.






Great Report Smack! Thanks.
Michael

quote:

SMack wrote:

(.458) 350gr Speer HotCore @ 2800 fps, on top of 96gr of Win748 and a Fed 215.

Nice hunt, nice report, nice rifle, nice load, beautiful animal.

2800 fps with 350 grains is sweet. Solid, authoritative, reasonably flat for normal hunting. About right for a new standard with light, new technology.

That bullet expanded to a large diameter. Can't help but wonder if it would have held together if the elk was 30 yards away instead of 300.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
That bullet expanded to a large diameter. Can't help but wonder if it would have held together if the elk was 30 yards away instead of 300.

465H&H

465HH

I concur, I wonder the same thing. I suspect strongly that at closer ranges it might have come apart. While I have not tested it beyond what is seen above, I have tested the 350 Hornady, and 2400 fps impact is top end with it, above that it starts to come apart. I think the Speer would do the same. So it's good it was 300 yards. Excellent performance at that impact velocity, whatever that was. I bet Smack had a plan if it was going to be close???

Michael

Michael:

I have been shooting the 400 grain Speer Sp FN in my .450 Marlin. What kind of luck have you had with those?

Dave

Good question! Answer is--I don't know!

I looked back on all my data base for 458 caliber. It appears I have never tested the 400 Speer FN. I know many years ago I had a few of those, one box, and it's been 10-12 yrs ago I bet. I have tested and worked of course extensively with the 405 Remington, and know it's limitations well, when I was doing a lot of 45/70 work I tried the 405 Woodleigh, and it was so good in that capacity, I never looked at anymore 400s 405s for the 45/70. So I never have worked with the Speer.

Be glad to do it if you want to send 5 or so. What velocity are you running, 1850-1950 fps?? I can duplicate the velocity pretty close.

On the range doing PT's in the 458 B&M, new powders I have not tried, RL 17--too slow, IMR 8208 and AA 2230 Looking very good right now. All this info will be used in the 475 B&M as well starting soon as I get the other rifle. Load data will transfer pretty well, at least to get started with it. Just FYI is all. Will post some of this data on the B&M thread later.

Michael

The BC is .232 @ 3600 ft above sea level, it hit a rib on the impact side.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Dave

Good question! Answer is--I don't know!

I looked back on all my data base for 458 caliber. It appears I have never tested the 400 Speer FN. I know many years ago I had a few of those, one box, and it's been 10-12 yrs ago I bet. I have tested and worked of course extensively with the 405 Remington, and know it's limitations well, when I was doing a lot of 45/70 work I tried the 405 Woodleigh, and it was so good in that capacity, I never looked at anymore 400s 405s for the 45/70. So I never have worked with the Speer.

Be glad to do it if you want to send 5 or so. What velocity are you running, 1850-1950 fps?? I can duplicate the velocity pretty close.

On the range doing PT's in the 458 B&M, new powders I have not tried, RL 17--too slow, IMR 8208 and AA 2230 Looking very good right now. All this info will be used in the 475 B&M as well starting soon as I get the other rifle. Load data will transfer pretty well, at least to get started with it. Just FYI is all. Will post some of this data on the B&M thread later.

Michael

Michael:

I am running them about 1850-1900. I will send five down to you if you would be so kind as to test them.

quote:

Michael:

I am running them about 1850-1900. I will send five down to you if you would be so kind as to test them.

Dave

As always, my pleasure, I will be looking for them.

M

quote:

The BC is .232 @ 3600 ft above sea level, it hit a rib on the impact side.

Smack

Yep, well that rib explains the extra loss of weight. The bullet looks great, and it obviously did a great job. According to what I can come up with, at that BC, impact velocity would have been around 1850-1900 fps at 300 yds.

Michael

Hey Michael and Boomstick

I apologise for the late responswe been a hectic few days and leaving for a wedding at the worst possable time. But anyway this is my first time i have posted on the TBP discussion, I have been watching from the distance. The 44 concept looks great and would give the 44 and 444 new life, For most of our hunting in my area(upstate NY) the two calibers I seem to use the most is my 7 rem mag and the 44. The 44 being the tube style carbines from ruger( just aquired one finally) Its just a fun easy handling gun to be in the woods all day with, Most of the loads being used are the leverrevolution bullets from hornady and the barnes xpb, Love the barnes but not a huge fan of the hornadys tend to break up.

Ok sorry I kno I probally rambling, So heres my question can these ceb design a bullet with will fit this need, short range and big holes.

quote:

Ok sorry I kno I probally rambling, So heres my question can these ceb design a bullet with will fit this need, short range and big holes.

The brass hollow points love velocity. The more velocity the more energy to get that explosive effect. I'm sure it can be done but not rifle velocity outcome. I think the pressure funnel opening and cam/piston tip in the above drawing are a good way to focus that energy from the lower velocity bullet to reliably sheer. I think it would be an easy test to take an existing non con and add a 45 degree countersink funnel nose to take up the entire meplat face leaving a sharp edge and test. Keep making the funnel deeper and see results. My guess is with existing design that might get the sheering velocity down to 1,2000 fps. Add the tip and maybe close to 1,000 FPS. Another thing that would make this sheer at lower velocity is creating a weakened leading edge. Try to rip a phone book in half and its impossible. Fan it out a bit so you start tearing a few sheets and progressively more and that's the trick. I have ripped many a phone book in half. It's not too hard once you know the trick.

Boomy
Ok.. what do u think the damage would be caused if it did not shear, A deep cup and the frontal pressure, I am wondering if it would create a bigger channel than a wide metplat bullet.
Matt

If it does not open up then it should act similar to a flat nose solid. A wide nose will still do damage but focus the energy to penetration. The bullets should act like reliable tools designed to do the function it was made for. Let's say a +P 45 ACP shoots a light 150 grain non con at 1,100 fps. That should be designed to shear and do the damage within 8". A 44 mag would be more hunting design say 180 grains going 1,600 fps and penetrating deeper and doing damage to say 20". That would be easier to adapt the current design to work. Maybe a good test mule is to take the Lightest 458 non con and countersink it to see how low the velocity will work with a simple modification. I think the 44 mag is a good round to design a hunting bullet for. All things are possible but it takes time, money and testing. I would like to see the 45 ACP defense non con and the 44 mag hunting non con get made. As Michael always tells me "Patience!" lol.
8,000 replies on this thread and still going strong. Plenty of myths to bust and bullets to be made and tested.

quote:

I would like to see the 45 ACP defense non con and the 44 mag hunting non con get made.

I agree with the 44 mag hunting noncon. Always thought that the 44 mag in the various carbines made a very good woods gun and maybe even a respectable guide gun with the right bullets.

I caution against creating noncon self defense bullets unless you want California and the eastern states getting into the act and passing all sorts of laws against noncons which may negatively impact producing noncons for hunting.

IMO, leave the subject of making noncons for self defense alone! In fact, drop the whole conversation about noncons for self defense and don't mention the subject again. Remember the press attack on the Black Talon? Winchester eventually pulled all of them off the market. The whole subject of expanding or exploding bullets is a favorite for a press feeding frenzy. Logic has nothing to do with the subject. Actually, NJ prohibits hollow point bullets right now, but the law has so many exceptions that it's hard to know exactly what is probibited.

200 sure didn't last long.

I think you need to leave the handguns out of the non con. Velocity too low and bullet too expensive. This is a big game bullet for rifles.

200 is gone already? Whew! I can't even keep up now!

We have much work to do here. I made up two boxes of test medium yesterday in preparation. Raptors were supposed to leave headed in my direction yesterday. I suspect sometime Wednesday arrival. Once in hand, I will make a plan for loading, starting small caliber and working up. Tests will be fairly extensive in each given caliber. I want the highest velocity that I am capable of giving with the cartridges available to me, medium velocity, and the lower end velocity point of no shear. NonCon No Tip, NonCon with Tip, Solid end as well. Then try and get some 50 yd BC info and see how that compares. Dan and Sam will be getting the longer range accuracy and BC work done. This is going to take some time no doubt.

Then I have personal projects that must be done at the same time, namely load data 475 B&M soon as the new gun arrives and strain gages attached. Along with this, terminals on all the new .475 caliber bullets from North Fork and the BBW#13s.

Lot's of work ahead.

M

The best Noncon Handgun defencive ammo I've seen yet, is the Grizzly Xtreme.
It opens like a 4 point throwing star inside the target. The .45 opens to an inch and a half.

Cheers, John

I just looked at the Grizzly Extreme videos and that is a cool looking bullet.

The grizzly Xtreme ammo uses bullets made by Lehigh. They are like the four bladed carnivoire but stays connected.
I can see how a six petal brass version would be cool.

Michael, maybe I should move into the lab to help out
Just let me shoot all the guns and bring me snacks and bourbon.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael, maybe I should move into the lab to help out
Just let me shoot all the guns and bring me snacks and bourbon.

Boomy, I do admit, you would be good help to have around.........

However, one small problem, I would have to up my dose of medication to put up with you! Maybe I will check with my doctor on that?

HEH HEH.......

I promise to cut back on the coffee

Wow - this thread keeps impressing me.. You guys are awesome..

My eye is finally getting better. Got the sutures removed last week and vision has improved greatly. Not normal, but much better. I shot 95% today of the clays in some compac sporting and thats as usual. Not bad. A rifle - well - more foggy vision on right eye, but I can use a rifle with my right eye if using a scope now.. And it will get better yet..

To celebrate this I just booked a lion hunt in Zim as a " End of season deal"... From 14.Nov to 1. Dec...
If needed I will shoot with my left eye, we will see....(pun intended )
Good to be on my way back.. Its been a long "vaccation"... Too long...


Ulrik

Michael,

While I didn't see it in the planned calibers, I REALLY believe we need a Carnivore bullet for the 600s be they Nitro or OverKill. I finally have a press I can load My Overkill on and I am chompin'-at-the-bit to try something truely destructive.

I have been contemplating contacting Dan about making BBW#13s out of 7075T65 same OAL as current NonCon. I desire a truly unique "splatter-type" bullet for my OverKill.

Bubba 'Squatch

Ulrik,
Alright great to hear your getting better!!
You could always try a Reflex sight and shoot with both eyes open. Just a thought.
Your doing great so far, keep it up.

Cheers, John