quote:

The CEB/NON-CON slammed through the top of the buffalo's boss, knocking a half dollar size hole right through the top of his skull

Please note that this is a NonCon!!!

I would love to have a slow-motion, stop/motion film of that bullet's path. Somehow the pedals came off and the remaining core did not deflect or go off intended path! Maybe the rough front remaining on the NonCon after the pedals pealed off was able to grab the boss enough that a deflection did not take place? Bet a round nose would have completely deflected. Bet the #13 solid would NOT have deflected.

Aaron,

Glad those bullets worked well for you. Just sorry you didn't have that 577 on your big elephant. Wow that was an elephant of dreams!!!!
I'm sure the 375 Rum will be great with the CEB BBW#13 non cons and solids. At the velocities you will get out of that cannon no telling what will be left of what you shoot with it. Might come in handy if you have to take out a tank or something.
Oh I shot that 475 B&M the other day and it is sweet!!! I think that caliber may end up being Michael's favorite even though the 50 was first. I wish I wouldn't have shot it because now I'm going to have to build one of those also.

Sam

May I suggest testing on a new hollow point?
The Torx hole pattern will add weight and potential depth of penetration of the petals and maybe shear better.
Yes looks like a Star of David lol.
Death star hollow point!
This I think is worthy of testing.

quote:

Jim, I happen to be the only man alive right now that has a major caliber Raptor--.500 caliber, the only one in existence! HEH........

Michael…

quote:

IMO, the ESP Raptor in the medium and small bores would do better with a Carnivore and solid combination for North American game hunting than the present NonCon and solid combination.

quote:

I would hazard a guess that most of the thin-skinned game shot in North American need the faster shear of the NonCons (2-4" depth in testing media) vs the Carnivore (4-6" depth in testing media). Deer, antelope, elk are our primary species of hunting here, with bear being probably the toughest of the hides.

What say the rest of you?

quote:

The Carnivore has a very deep hollow point cavity. This cavity is not filling with media on impact. This leaves a void that the bullet is collapsing into.

Tan, Prof, Phat… Here’s my take on things.
The .500 caliber 460gr BBW#13 HP NonCon and 420gr BBW#13 HP Carnivore are identical in every respect; i.e., bullet length, driving band locations, nose shape, meplat and HP diameter. They diverge in bullet weight which is directly attributed to the depth of the HPs – the HP NonCon has a 0.400” HP depth which the HP Carnivore has a 0.800” HP depth. Here my perception of how they perform:

.500 460gr BBW#13 HP NonCons:
The petals shear above the upper driving band leaving a tapered-jagged bullet shank remaining above the upper driving band. The remaining nose shape maintains a driving point and full shoulder (driving band) for shank stability during within-mass penetration. The full depth of penetration is determined by the remaining shank weight and initial bullet impact velocity. The BBW#13 HP NonCons are the best heavy boned DG bullets out there; definitely in the rare upper crust of performance with the domestic NF and S&H and the international GSC bullets.

.500 420gr BBW#13 HP Carnivore:
The petals shear between the upper two driving bands. The upper driving band peels away with petal shearing as well as portions of the 2nd driving band and very little shank remains above 2nd driving band. The remaining nose is a somewhat ragged-blunt nose which may increase trauma but doesn’t assist shank stability during within-mass penetration. The full depth of penetration is determined by the remaining shank weight and initial bullet impact velocity. The BBW#13 HP Carnivores are absolutely devastating against light boned toothy DG animals and are in a class by themselves.

Ok…Carnivore HP (C-HP) for North American game. I’ve had a few discussions with Michael since he and Sam ginned up the first Carnivore prototype…I’d thought the C-HP with the Tip Insert (TI) would be the perfect within 350yd NA combination. Then the issue arose with the TI length eliminating magazine use so back to square one…this was the impetus to Dan building me the MTH Y01 HP Spitzer bullets in .423 and .500 calibers.

Now the Raptors have arrived. If I’ve computed correctly, the 130gr .308 CEB BBW#13 Raptor with Tip Insert is between 1.400” and 1.500” in length…presuming the TI has a nose protrusion of 0.4”-0.5” length. The .375 caliber TIs were 0.500” in nose protrusion; I don’t know if that length is static for all calibers or perhaps longer for the plus .375 calibers and shorter for the under .375 calibers.

The bottom line question is, “are the longer HP Carnivore petals needed for longer-range lower-velocity impact upon lighter constructed NA game or whether the shorter HP NonCon will shear nicely at longer-range lower-velocity impact and kill just as deadly?”

For toothy NA critters with long claws – our versions of DG – I’m most definitely using HP Carnivores!…no questions asked…especially as ranges will be up front and personal...at least for the 1st shot! For the magazine…I’m thinking a 2nd HP Carnivore on top followed by one or two HP Raptors just in case my shots suck and my NA DG animal decides to escape rather than maul me!

For the non-DG NA game animals…Michael has already proven with lighter weight CEB BBW#13 HP NonCons fired from the B&M SS that the bullets will properly shear petals with the remaining short light weight shank driving deeper than most premium expanding jacketed bullets of a similar or slightly heavier weight – same caliber and impact speed.

So do we need the Carnivore HP on the Raptor vis-à-vis the NonCon HP? I truly don’t know…and the only way we’ll know is to try the Raptors in both configurations in the MIB lab as well as against game. I only question currently, if whether the Carnivore HP Raptor will be as forgiving and accurate as the NonCon HP Raptor. So perhaps a couple of tests are required…longer range accuracy testing by CEB and short-range testing at 50 yards by MIB. Then we’ll have our first glimmers. Perhaps we’ll find the Raptors’ HP performs best by splitting the HP depth difference of the Carnivore and NonCon. Only lab and field testing will give us these answers.

The Raptors need the extra bullet weight since they are on the light side so I think the hollow point depth is ideal plus they are shooting well. The Raptors in larger calibers should out perform conventional expanding DG bullets. The good thing is we have great choices in all of these.

Any thoughts on the Torx hollow point idea? Still 6 petals but heavier. Thinking the sheer point would be the weakest point due to a thicker center petal strip.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Any thoughts on the Torx hollow point idea? Still 6 petals but heavier.

Boomy,
I think the thicker bladed Torx HP might give more inconsistent petal peeling and shearing than was seen with the slightly-thicker petals on the initial runs .409s and .416s...where petal peeling and shearing was very inconsistent. The solution was slightly-larger diameter HPs with the slightly-thinner petals which are working superbly. My opin anyway.

Yes they perfected the ideal weakness point thickness. This would just add weight and penetration in theory. With the smaller weakness seam it should peel like a banana.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Yes they perfected the ideal weakness point thickness. This would just add weight and penetration in theory. With the smaller weakness seam it should peel like a banana.

Might require some specialized bits to accomplish this HP style...maybe yes, maybe no. Might require even deeper score lines to assure proper peeling and shearing. Perhaps this needs to be thrown up in the air for Sam's comments regarding the difficulty of prototyping 3-5 bullets for the MIB bullet box.

My guess is that CEB could pull this off. God bless Sam for all his R&D. Maybe he has a tiny bastard file to pull this off

So you want a torx non con do you. I can do that but the depth of the grooves will be short. I'll see what I can come up with.

Sam

Awesome!
Darth Samuel Vader building the Death Star prototype! I can hear the imperial march theme now.

I don't normally post excerpts from PMs, but this one from Michael seems appropriate when I asked about a particular bullet:

Oh my god, wouldn't a .620 Carnivore be awful? JHChrist! Yes, Total Mass Destruction!

A whole new definition to varmint grenade!!

Hey Boomy

How about a tamper proof Torx with the post in the middle? Then it would be like the old Hydra-Shock. Except much more lethal.

Or maybe a Tri-Wing? I always thought that one would make a cool Hollow Point.

I think a post would inhibit petal shear.
I think a torx hole would be about ideal.

Yeah Yeah I know. I was just trolling. Kinda suprised you couldn't detect the hint of sarcasm.

If these bullets were metal injection molded, just about any geometry cavity could be produced. Problem is the price would go through the roof.

I am looking forward to using Raptors in some of my unmentionable calibers(don't want to get caught using words like Hornet and 25-20 on a big bore forum).

I got the sarcasm

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I don't normally post excerpts from PMs, but this one from Michael seems appropriate when I asked about a particular bullet:

Oh my god, wouldn't a .620 Carnivore be awful? JHChrist! Yes, Total Mass Destruction!

A whole new definition to varmint grenade!!

500 grains and made from ALUMINUM

The biggest problem with the Torx hole is the amount of displaced metal going to the bottom of the hole. This may prove to be difficult to remove and add cost. If not removed may unbalance the bullet. I think for the Raptor bullet being used in higher velocity rounds a smaller hole would be more effective and make petals larger.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

The CEB/NON-CON slammed through the top of the buffalo's boss, knocking a half dollar size hole right through the top of his skull

Please note that this is a NonCon!!!

I would love to have a slow-motion, stop/motion film of that bullet's path. Somehow the pedals came off and the remaining core did not deflect or go off intended path! Maybe the rough front remaining on the NonCon after the pedals pealed off was able to grab the boss enough that a deflection did not take place? Bet a round nose would have completely deflected. Bet the #13 solid would NOT have deflected.

IBT - Ya, its hard to explain the angle at which the bull's head was when I shot him. Likely, even a round nose solid would not have deflected. The bull's head was bobbing way up & down, as Phillip had just broken his right front leg. So he was still running at Phil on 3 legs, but he was dropping his head, as he would continue to stride, almost facing completely downward, then back - up right.

Although I hit him in the top of the boss, it was intentional, as his head was facing down at the time of my shot. Frankly, had he not been doing the bob & weave to such a large degree, I really think hitting him squarely in the brain would not have been too difficult. Seeing how the NON-CON went through the boss, and partially through the top of the skull, and the core continued on a straight-line path down through the opposite shoulder, I was seriously impressed with the CEB's performance. It knocked him sideways, and assuredly, kept him from hitting Phil.

If you look closely, on the buffalo's right boss, you can see the blood from the bullet hole through the top of his noodle. It then traversed down, through/into the left shoulder.

Bravo!
What a thrill.
Anyone have any doubts about the BBW CEB Non Con?

Those non cons are the best expanding bullets available. As Michael says they can't fail! Through the boss and out the shoulder is pretty good. Why would anyone really want a cup and core bullet when you can have a non con.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Those non cons are the best expanding bullets available. As Michael says they can't fail! Through the boss and out the shoulder is pretty good. Why would anyone really want a cup and core bullet when you can have a non con.

Aaron

Incredible, fantastic adventure! I love buffalo, I love to shoot buffalo! I sleep thinking about buffalo, I think of bullets, I think if its a good buffalo bullet, then its a damn good bullet! I think about buffalo rifles, cartridges, bullets every day! And that's a fine damn buffalo! And a fine buffalo bullet!

Sam, absolutely correct! If you have a bullet that you can count on to penetrate damn near any mission you can ask of a bullet, then it cannot fail! The BBW#13 NonCon has more penetration than any expanding bullet, period, conventionals not even in the race. Trauma inducing along with penetration, there is nothing like them anywhere! You cannot fail if you have penetration!

I gave one of my buffalo a headache to at 5-6 yds. When he got up, I busted one of the NonCons through his noggin and before he knew what was going on the next one was a solid. Of course the solid ended up sticking out of his ass end just through the hide, the NonCon went into the stomach. This from the 500 MDM 500 BBW#13 Solid at 2380 fps, 460 BBW#13 NonCon at 2450 fps. The NonCon blew a hole in the back of the skull big enough to put your fist through, and blades were found throughout the cavity in the head!

I see lot's of speculation about changing the NonCon? I won't be changing a damned thing with mine! HEH HEH... Perfect is Perfect, what is there to change! LOL............



Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Bravo!
What a thrill.
Anyone have any doubts about the BBW CEB Non Con?

BIG ZERO--No Doubts in my mind!

Michael
Is it safe to say you ripped that buff a new a_ _ h_ _ _ _
Ain't nothing wrong with the non cons with obvious stellar results. Just though it might get boring here without a few things to test

Boomy

HEH HEH--Boring here?

My Man, it's never boring here, JHC, I wish it was sometimes! WHEW-I just need another 24 hours in very day, then I could really get some things done! Really, you think that is too much to ask?

AnyHoo, we are going to have lot's and lot's to test in the very near future! Think about it, when New ESP Raptors are made, each one will be sent here to test and confirm all is good to go! Now I don't even own all the major small rat calibers, lets' see, I can test .257s, 264s, 30s, 338s, 358s, 9.3s! That's all the rat calibers I have, that I can remember! So that means Sam is going to have to get some of the rat shooters loaded up as well. So there is much work to be done very soon, with terminals.

In the meantime, I have many other projects going on. Take the 475 B&M for instance, a full load data with pressures has to be done with it. Then, terminals on all the new BBW#13s and North Forks! I am very much looking forward to that project, and some of those new North Forks look good to me as well! I know what the BBW#13s are going to do, in fact, everyone here knows it as well! Now I do admit, BBW#13s are becoming somewhat repetitive, with perfect performance, time after time after time! Might have to go back to more "unpredictable" bullets to get some action!


BBW#13s and North Forks for me! I see there was a big debate upstairs on the hornady DGX. I was up there for a bit, but left it, not sure where that is, seems a fellow had one come apart, no surprises there. I am with Sam, I don't know why in the world anyone would go on a world class hunt with a 2 Nickel bullet, when World Class Bullets are available? It just don't make sense to me? I suppose one day when I am approaching 80-90 years old (very set in my ways by then) there will be some whiz bang smart ass with a new whiz bang bullet and I will still be shooting BBW#13s and be just as hard headed! It's just the way things are sometimes I suppose!

Michael

Michael,
Grumbling from the peanut crowd regarding the BBW#13s? Naw… we’re just ruminating and then throwing things against the “cloud wall” to see if anything sticks! That’s what the peanut gallery does! That’s our job! Anyway, you’re partially to blame due to one of your latest revelations.

Excerpts as follows:

quote:

I plan on new bullets with longer noses in those same weights and calibers. I will also do the NonCons along with. So in these calibers, .500 and .458 there will be two versions, LG and S or SS, not sure what Dan will designate the .600 projection on these? Why .600 projection? So they fit proper in my 458 and 50 Super Shorts. All the real big bore major weight solids and NonCons maintain a .700 projection or slightly better. That will of course remain as is and has always been. With the exception of some of my own .500s, which somehow and no one can recall, myself included, come in with slightly less than a .600 projection, new ones in the future will have a longer projection rest assured!

Yep…you just have to love that longer smooth nose with its greater straight-line penetration!

Anyway…back to ruminating and chunking the “cloud wall”…

The BBW#13s – FN Solids and HP NonCons – are just about perfect as designed…specifically the nose shape, Meplat, and scored HP. Improvements?... I’m not against further tweaking the bullets as long as performance is not lessened… Reference here the above excerpted quotation.

So here are a few that I’ll throw against the wall…

I acknowledge up front that all of the CEB BBW#13 bullets principally were designed to work in M70 Winchester bolt and lever rifles, Marlin lever rifles, and in Sam’s double rifles…with other rifle cartridges were somewhat of an afterthought. I’ve no issue with that…you and Sam have been doing the work, that’s the priority that should prevail.

Ok…I’m ignoring lever and NE bullets as well as FMJ, bonded, and non-bonded traditional construction bullets… I’m only discussing monometal brass and copper bullets.

So here are a few of my thoughts that I’ll fire against the wall…
Bullet weights – Stuff trying to match traditional bullet weights of 0.300 SD or higher unless someone wants to special order some for their particular rifle. The MIB bullet box testing has demonstrated time and time again that Lighter-weight higher-velocity BBW#13 bullets pretty much match the overall straight-line penetration of same caliber slower-velocity traditional-weight BBW#13 bullets fired from the same rifle/cartridge combination. (I’m talking BBW#13 to BBW#13 here – or NF; FMJ, bonded, or non-bonded traditional bullets.

The .500 caliber 500gr BBW#13 FN Solid has a 0.286 SD does just fine penetration wise in both long (500 MDM) and intermediate length (50 B&M Long) cartridges; I don’t recollect if this bullet has brained an elephant yet or not. But Michael has used a 510gr SST/Lehigh FN Solid with a 0.291 SD to kill many elephant. As a comparison, a 190gr .308 caliber bullet has a 0.286 SD.

The .500 caliber 460gr BBW#13 FN HP NonCon has a 0.263 SD does just fine penetration wise in both long (500 MDM) and intermediate length (50 B&M Long) cartridges; this bullet has proven to be very deadly on Cape and Asian buffalo. As a comparison, a 175gr .308 caliber bullet has a 0.264 SD.

The .500 caliber 420gr BBW#13 FN HP Carnivore has a 0.240 SD does just fine penetration wise in both long (500 MDM) and intermediate length (50 B&M Long) cartridges. A 160gr .308 caliber bullet has a 0.241 SD.

The .500 caliber XXXgr BBW#13 FN RSP Raptor has a 0.XXX SD does just fine penetration wise in both long (500 MDM) and intermediate length (50 B&M Long) cartridges. How’d you like that smoke! Michael can’t find the .500 caliber Raptor so we many never know… Anyway as comparison, the 130gr .308 caliber RSP Raptor bullet has a 0.196 SD. It has proved extremely accurate with loading insensitivity in a very picky .300 WSM rifle owned by CEB; MIB bullet box testing is still pending.

Bullet lengths – The .500 caliber 500gr FN Solid, 460gr HP NonCon, and the 420gr HP Carnivore) are the identical length bullets. I personally believe the bullet length specification for the caliber/cartridge combination should be identified first and then let the relating FN Solid, HP’ NonCon and Carnivore bullet weights fall where they may…reference my opinion on traditional bullet weights.

Tri-Band Banding – I think the NE banding affords more bullet seating options than the tighter bolt banding…especially with the shorter smooth surface nose lengths on most of the BBW#13 bullets.

This may not be a future issue based upon the above excerpted quotation as it appears…hopefully…that all future BBW#13 manufacturing runs will have a 0.700” smooth nose length, except for the SS bullets which will have a 0.600” smooth nose length. This will pretty much eliminate the banding/seating statement as standard crimping in the seating groove between the upper two driving bands will give just slightly under 0.800” bullet protrusion which means less of the bullet will be seated within the case body.

Hum…anything else? Oh yes…I have one more.

.500 caliber RSP Raptor – Revise the banding location of the current 500gr FN Solid/460gr HP NonCon/420gr HP Carnivore bullet for the 0.700” smooth nose length; keep the current bullet length for all. Then take the 500gr FN Solid and machine the HP NonCon nose on the bullet base. This should result in a RSP Raptor weighing about 420gr…and if I’ve computed correctly should give a Meplat to edge of 1st driving band on the HP NonCon side of 0.362” which will be perfect for magazine feeding of the Raptor with the Tip Insert! Oh yeah that’ll work for me!

Ok…Yep I’m done… The wife is giving me the stink-eye so it’s back to moving crap from one room to another…

Jim

HEH HEH..... Correct, the job of the peanut gallery (I tend to think of it as the "Bullet Think Tank" these days) is to throw wild things out, and see what might stick. Who knows? Look at the "Raptor" that stuck!

Bullet Weights! I concur, and the B&Ms have brought many new bullets to the table, so that everyone can use within caliber--For instance, take a look at all the NEW .474s now, where nothing was available for .474 but 500 gr bullets! We now have a BBW#13 Solid 450 and NOnCon 420, a BBW#13 350 Solid and 325 NonCon, An entire line of North Forks 425 gr bullets, FPS, CPS and Premium Bonded, none never before seen. While in 458 and 416 there have been 450s, 350s and such, but now even more choices in BBW#13s, and all with proper Nose projections and everything that will work way beyond the B&Ms to other .474, .458, .416 cartridges, and also now even .423. So I think the weight thing is covered pretty good, in most big bore calibers.

There are some shortages, .510, .577, .620 come to mind. Sam and I used traditional weights mostly in these for regulation of the doubles, but the bullets do fine in bolt guns as well, but no choices in lighter weight bullets that would surely be effective as they are in my various .500s. These can be done easy enough, it's a matter of someone requesting or needing such a thing and willing to help get the first run going as well. Since I have no need personally for lighter .510s, .577s, or .620s I have not done it.

As for the Raptors, it's my opinion that in each given caliber one, lighter than standard, bullet be done in each of the major calibers to get started in each caliber. Being brass, they are longer than normal, as we all know. So one may not be able to do a 180 or 200 gr Raptor in 308 and it work in most rifle magazines, with tip added. So, 130 gr 308 Raptor, good for all rifles, weight not needed because the 130 Raptor out penetrates the best of the 200 gr 308 bullets by wide margins anyway. Designed for hunting purposes, ranges to long range hunting at 300-400 yards, still plenty. Later, once the basics are in, then possible other weights considers, but one has to make that first run, test, and see what is what first I think.

As for the .500s and the nose projection, yes I am going to make that change starting with those bullets designed for the 50 B&M Alaskan, and then going to the standard 50 B&M and 500 MDM .500s, which somehow came out with a .580 or so projection, that Dan nor I can quite figure out, as even the shorter 50 B&M can take more length in the WSM magazines? But yes, these things I will work on, just have not had time yet. These will increase depth of penetration of all the .500s. Not that some of them need much more, but anyway............

I hope to be testing the 416 Carnivores tomorrow along with the new PT II system. Much tech support has been going on between Jim Ristow and I this week concerning the crazy readings I am getting on the PT II. We found in the configuration that voltage conversion factors are not consistent for some reason between barrel settings, and this may be the culprit, with the module possibly being damaged somehow during shipping. If the voltage conversion factor can be sorted out then we should be up and running--But I still have the PT 1 working and set up too! I told you guys this was a bitch and would not be just plug and play! Never is! Always some sort of crap to sort out!

M

I can't weigh in for much, but have appreciated the developments in .416. We hope to have reliable, tipped 416 CEB to use next year.

for .510" (like the Jeffrey, Mbogo and AccRel) I would like 100 Raptors.

That's just not enough of a demand to justify ordering a new line, so I'll sit and wait. I expect there to be several following this thread to want the same.

In the meantime, there is always the GSCustom 450 grain .510". Woodleigh and Barnes have some cup+core thin-skin bullets available in 450 grain should push come to shove. For buffalo we have the 535 grain standards in CEB HP matched with a 535 grain Barnes Flatnose solid. Those will do, if necessary, but 420-460 grain Raptors would be preferable.

An experiment in reducing base drag.

Work with the 475 as that is what is presently in development. Take two each; solids, noncons and carnivors in normal design. Then take two each; solids, noncons and carnivors and remove the base driving band. Then take two each; solids, noncons and carnivors and cut the base to the BBM #13 profile. Shoot and measure the velocities at 25 yards (maybe 50?). Compare results.

The ones with the base cut to the BBM #13 profile should retain velocity better than the others.

If true, you can up impact velocity with the same powder or reduce the powder while maintaining the same velocity.

Tanz

I think once Dan gets all the rat calibers sorted out with the Raptors, then I will take part in the big bore Raptors and work with him on those. And we can take them to .51 easy. And, I have a 51 to boot! HEH.. But I don't put much effort into 51 as the guns are just way too big. And they are not my brand either.

M

Hey, I understand that you ride for the brand.
That's cool.

You'll just have to have someone do you up a .510" AccRel or Mbogo on a Model 70. I can't see why a Rigby case head can't be milled into a m70 bolt. If they do it with a Ruger Hawkeye, why not a Winnie?

Tanz

I don't think it's the bolt face that is the big issue, more like trying to retain those big fat cases in the magazine is more of an issue. Of course I have not done it or tried, but even getting a RUM case to work in a standard magazine, not one of the RUM made Winchesters, is a no go. So a Rigby case? No way, at least not reasonably, and no promises or guarantees even then.

Maybe one day Winchester will see fit for a big action?

Spoke with Dan earlier, and for sure Raptors coming in Big Bores, at least from 416 to .500 and .510. Do know, these all will be light for caliber, and hopefully we can make them work inside the magazines, with tips, that is the point of the Raptor--Enhanced System Projectile! So it has to do everything, and do everything well! As we see already, the 130 308 does just that!

Raptors in other rat shooters coming very soon! I can't wait to get my hands on something like a 220 gr 9.3 Raptor!!!!!! Talk about smoking in the 9.3 B&M!!!!!! Holy S**T!!!!!!

Michael

Tan,
RIP already has the Rigby case head on the M70 with his 49-10 (aka: .500/.338 Lapua Magnum - 2.65") so we know it can be done. I think we need to noodle out getting Michael a .585 in his M70 and then he'd likely have to fill in all the gaps between .500 and .585...

Michael,
If I didn't already have 300@ of the CEB MTH (HP Spitzers) in .423 and .500 caliber I'd already be pestering Dan for a run of Raptors in each caliber. In the meantime, I'll be following the .308 rat caliber Raptor developments very closely as I have a few functional rifles in that caliber...and Raptors will be perfect in the giant vulture zone.

Hey Sam... Have you prototyped Raptors for your 500 and 577 NE DRs yet? If so, just wondering how they shoot.

Jim,

I made one Raptor in .500 and Michael has it. I have not worked with them in the nitro calibers because I see no need for them. Not likely to be shooting my doubles much at 200 to 600 yards. 150 is about my limit with iron sights.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
I think we need to noodle out getting Michael a .585 in his M70 and then he'd likely have to fill in all the gaps between .500 and .585...

Let's see-- 525 B&M? Hmmmmm? Already a .550 so that is out. Maybe a 560 B&M and then 585 B&M? Or maybe it should be 530 B&M 560 B&M and 585 B&M--Yeah, that's better! 18 inch barrels, 8.5 lbs max weight, sounding better!

LOL

M

Sam,

Yep I remember the .500 Raptor prototype you made for Michael...nice looking it was...and I understand Michael has "misplaced" it.

I guess Raptors don't make much sense for DRs unless they're scoped.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Sam,

Yep I remember the .500 Raptor prototype you made for Michael...nice looking it was...and I understand Michael has "misplaced" it.

I guess Raptors don't make much sense for DRs unless they're scoped.

If you load the DG Raptors as solids, will the base shape reduce base drag enough to make a difference at the 50 yard range?

IBT

The boat tail advantage is pretty much just for the tipped hollow point